ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 22nd November 2020, 06:26 AM   #1
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,711
Britain: A "scandalous lack of progress in reducing femicide"

Quote:
This Wednesday is International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, which will see the start of 16 days of activism against gender violence globally. That same day also sees the publication in the UK of a groundbreaking report, Femicide Census, which, for the first time in Britain, analyses the shocking killings of women and girls, from the age of 14 to 100, at the hands of men, over a 10-year period, 2009-2018. The census defines “femicide’” as “men’s fatal violence against women”, and reveals that, on average, a woman was murdered every three days – a horrifying statistic, unchanged over the decade. This is in spite of greater public awareness, increased research, changes in the law and improved training for the police. “Patterns of male violence are persistent and enduring,” the report states.

The scandalous lack of progress in reducing femicide in the UK is, in part, because each killing, is treated by various agencies as “an isolated incident” and “giving no cause for wider public concern”. As a result, the report says, information received from the police via, for instance, Freedom of Information requests, can be “sparse, inaccurate or incomplete”; coroners’ reports often fail to reference a history of male violence, while it is difficult to access official documents such as Independent Office for Police Conduct reports and domestic homicide reviews, all of which, along with media coverage, feed into the database of the census.

...


Of the 1,425 victims, almost half were killed by “a sharp instrument”, sometimes with additional brutal violence (classed as an “overkilling”). “The most common form of femicide is stabbing,” Ingala Smith says. “Yet most knife-crime strategies focus on teenagers and gang crime.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ut-uk-femicide

A damning report indeed. Personally i think the most shocking finding is that so many British households are keeping dangerous KNIVES in their homes that are so readily able to be used by men to kill women. Something must be done! Is it not about time the British people finally banned knives altogether?

What do the Brits have to say in defense of their woman murdering ways?
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 07:29 AM   #2
ServiceSoon
Graduate Poster
 
ServiceSoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,618
1,425 female victims with men perpetrators over a 10 year period (2009-2018)?
ServiceSoon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 07:46 AM   #3
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ut-uk-femicide

A damning report indeed. Personally i think the most shocking finding is that so many British households are keeping dangerous KNIVES in their homes that are so readily able to be used by men to kill women. Something must be done! Is it not about time the British people finally banned knives altogether?

What do the Brits have to say in defense of their woman murdering ways?
I’m assuming that you are trying to make a point with your sarcasm? What is the point you are trying to make?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 07:53 AM   #4
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
For anyone with a serious interest the report is to be published 25/11

https://www.femicidecensus.org/10-year-report/
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 08:00 AM   #5
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,711
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I’m assuming that you are trying to make a point with your sarcasm? What is the point you are trying to make?
That something should be done to end men's violence against women in Britain? When some male hoodlums stab each-other politicians quickly get on the telly and start moaning about crime, yet now we have damning proof of the threat British men with easy access to knives represent to women.

As they say:
Quote:
Men who kill do so within a context of endemic sex discrimination in a society that normalises male predatory behaviour from an early age and is too eager to blame victims.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 08:13 AM   #6
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
That something should be done to end men's violence against women in Britain? When some male hoodlums stab each-other politicians quickly get on the telly and start moaning about crime, yet now we have damning proof of the threat British men with easy access to knives represent to women.

As they say:
If you read the Guardian article it will show that this is not a problem that is ignored, we’ve changed the laws, changed policing and so on.

Now according to this article about the not yet available report we haven’t succeeded in reducing the rate of killings. Which is of course very concerning but some of the changes have only been implemented over the last few years so perhaps haven’t had time to make an impact.

If the changes haven’t worked then hopefully this report will provide more information so we can try and reduce these killings.

The type of changes I am talking about are like the “Domestic Abuse Bill 2020”, that hopefully will address some of the issues and help reduce the number of women murdered.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 08:59 AM   #7
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 12,506
Ban....knives?

The article says a woman is killed by a man every three days. It does not say how often men kill men. Also one every three days, I expect?

Plus as an American, any demographic only being killed once every three days is the ******* Xmas miracle.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 09:22 AM   #8
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,099
Is this one of those things where if you say there's a problem X, people get mad because you didn't mention problem Y and by not doing so they think you don't care about problem Y?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 09:43 AM   #9
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,711
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The type of changes I am talking about are like the “Domestic Abuse Bill 2020”, that hopefully will address some of the issues and help reduce the number of women murdered.
According to the article it doesn't even address the root cause of all British men's violence against women: that sex discrimination is endemic in British society and where male predatory behavior is normalized from an early age.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 09:51 AM   #10
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ban....knives?

The article says a woman is killed by a man every three days. It does not say how often men kill men. Also one every three days, I expect?

Plus as an American, any demographic only being killed once every three days is the ******* Xmas miracle.
We do have restrictions and even bans on certain types of knifes and you have to be over 18 to buy anything more than cutlery and there are restrictions on what you can carry in public.

But even if most murders involve knives it is likely they will be domestic knives not “weapon” style knives.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 09:53 AM   #11
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
According to the article it doesn't even address the root cause of all British men's violence against women: that sex discrimination is endemic in British society and where male predatory behavior is normalized from an early age.
Our efforts are ongoing, it is very unlikely there is “a” solution.

ETA: Out of curiosity, not to pull a tu quoque or whataboutism how does the UK compare to other countries? It may be we need to look elsewhere for something that will help.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 22nd November 2020 at 09:55 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 10:09 AM   #12
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
To answer my own question: http://www.genevadeclaration.org/fil...3_pp87-120.pdf

Page 6 shows England and Wales as “very low” for female victims of homicide - less than 0.9 per 100,000 which puts us amongst the lowest in the world.

Despite us being very low in actual female victims of homicides per 100,000 most of our female victims are a result of partner killings - around 75% - see page 21.

So it would seem sensible to focus our attention on partner killings if we want to further reduce the rate of female victims of homicide.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 10:10 AM   #13
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,667
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
... ETA: Out of curiosity, not to pull a tu quoque or whataboutism how does the UK compare to other countries? It may be we need to look elsewhere for something that will help.
That's my first thought: "is that a big number?" and if other countries do better, what do they do differently? Obviously it's bad, but is it especially bad? If it is then maybe there are lessons to be learned from countries who already improved.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 10:10 AM   #14
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 12,506
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We do have restrictions and even bans on certain types of knifes and you have to be over 18 to buy anything more than cutlery and there are restrictions on what you can carry in public.
As does my State. We can carry a pocket knife with a blade up to 2 1/4", and anything larger needs the ambiguously worded "legally justifiable purpose", usually considered a tradesman's tool. Other restrictions include assisted opening mechanisms, and carrying it exposed in a sheath, no carrying in pockets. Technically, even a Swiss Army knife is illegal to carry.

Quote:
But even if most murders involve knives it is likely they will be domestic knives not “weapon” style knives.
Which is why I would question proposing a ban. Tough to carve a roast or turkey without one.

Is the OP questioning why rates of women being killed haven't come down? If so, is it simply because they were already very low? Not getting the problem here. Killers gonna kill. Its right there in the name. Should the very low incidence be expected to come down with the higher incidence?
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 10:24 AM   #15
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,731
This is an interesting table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homici...tics_by_gender

What stands out to me is that in the UK, male and female murderers prefer male victims to about the same degree. Approximately 70% of murder victims are men, regardless of the gender of the murderer.

What I think is scandalous about the Femicide Census in the OP is that it treats murder as a gender issue. Women already have a much better time of it than men, on this issue. To me, it seems like a special kind of douchebaggery to take the problem of murder as being a problem of women getting murdered.

I mean, it's ******* murder. "Oh, if only we could convince our kindly, well-meaning British murderers to spare the weaker sex from their murderous pastimes, we could really pat ourselves on the back for making the world less barbarous."

Like gender equality is gonna be on their minds in the middle of a murder. Let me know when women are getting murdered at a slightly higher rate than men, commensurate with their percentage of the population.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 10:31 AM   #16
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is an interesting table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homici...tics_by_gender

What stands out to me is that in the UK, male and female murderers prefer male victims to about the same degree. Approximately 70% of murder victims are men, regardless of the gender of the murderer.

What I think is scandalous about the Femicide Census in the OP is that it treats murder as a gender issue. Women already have a much better time of it than men, on this issue. To me, it seems like a special kind of douchebaggery to take the problem of murder as being a problem of women getting murdered.

I mean, it's ******* murder. "Oh, if only we could convince our kindly, well-meaning British murderers to spare the weaker sex from their murderous pastimes, we could really pat ourselves on the back for making the world less barbarous."

Like gender equality is gonna be on their minds in the middle of a murder. Let me know when women are getting murdered at a slightly higher rate than men, commensurate with their percentage of the population.
But if you look at the document I linked to around 75% of all female victims of homicide are killed by a partner so it does look like there is a specific problem with regards to gender of the victims. It seems reasonable to consider that is a specific problem.

Are the majority of male homicide victims killed by their partner. Back to looking.

ETA: This gives quite a different percentage https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2019

Female victims (aged 16 years and over) were more likely to be killed by a partner / ex-partner (38%, 80 homicides), while male victims were more likely to be killed by a friend or acquittance (27%, 105 homicides).
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 22nd November 2020 at 10:56 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 10:41 AM   #17
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 12,506
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But if you look at the document I linked to around 75% of all female victims of homicide are killed by a partner so it does look like there is a specific problem with regards to gender of the victims. It seems reasonable to consider that is a specific problem.

Are the majority of male homicide victims killed by their partner. Back to looking.
Ok, so women aren't murdered as often, and when they are it tends to be by those with a close emotional relationship. That seems pretty predictable.

Has the population number remained stable during the subset incidence of femicide?
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 10:45 AM   #18
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,731
Maybe women need to do a better job of choosing partners?

ETA: Also I'm pretty sure that when women murder, they mostly murder partners or children.

Last edited by theprestige; 22nd November 2020 at 10:49 AM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 10:58 AM   #19
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, so women aren't murdered as often, and when they are it tends to be by those with a close emotional relationship. That seems pretty predictable.

Has the population number remained stable during the subset incidence of femicide?
That is what the report about the report is saying.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 11:26 AM   #20
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,731
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But if you look at the document I linked to around 75% of all female victims of homicide are killed by a partner so it does look like there is a specific problem with regards to gender of the victims. It seems reasonable to consider that is a specific problem.

Are the majority of male homicide victims killed by their partner. Back to looking.

ETA: This gives quite a different percentage https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2019

Female victims (aged 16 years and over) were more likely to be killed by a partner / ex-partner (38%, 80 homicides), while male victims were more likely to be killed by a friend or acquittance (27%, 105 homicides).
I'm not at all surprised that there are gender variances in the nature of crimes committed. It doesn't follow from this that women getting murdered at 1/3 the rate of men is a gender problem that needs to be called out for special attention.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 11:30 AM   #21
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 12,506
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not at all surprised that there are gender variances in the nature of crimes committed. It doesn't follow from this that women getting murdered at 1/3 the rate of men is a gender problem that needs to be called out for special attention.
I gather that the 145/yr has been consistent while male on male murder has substantially declined?
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 12:02 PM   #22
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,731
I gather the problem with the gender variance in domestic violence cases is simply because men are on average stronger than women. Whenever a dispute between partners escalates to violence, men are more likely to prevail over women. Maybe we need to consider normalizing the idea that women are the weaker sex, and that men have a chivalrous duty to never ever hit a woman. No matter how much of a douchebag you may be, a real man doesn't raise his hand to a woman. That sort of thing.

Of course, we should probably also push for a corresponding social value that wives should not poison their husbands, no matter how aggravating those men are.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 12:46 PM   #23
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,215
Bit embarrassing, but according to that chart in the link, we are one of the worst in the world.

Nearly 50/50

NZ

Males 48.8%
Females 51.2%

Think different countries have different categories and way of working it out though.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 01:27 PM   #24
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,320
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not at all surprised that there are gender variances in the nature of crimes committed. It doesn't follow from this that women getting murdered at 1/3 the rate of men is a gender problem that needs to be called out for special attention.
It's about money. The domestic violence industry is looking for an increase in funding while tacitly admitting that their efforts over the past decade have been rather ineffective.

Judging by the photo collage at the top of The Guardian article, femicide is largely a white people problem.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 01:35 PM   #25
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,711
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Our efforts are ongoing, it is very unlikely there is “a” solution.
Quote:
The scandalous lack of progress in reducing femicide in the UK is, in part, because each killing, is treated by various agencies as “an isolated incident” and “giving no cause for wider public concern”.
It's about time British people recognized that when British men subject British women to violence it's an attack against all British women as a whole. This violence is just another form of repression by British patriarchal society.

The experts have spoken: Britain hates Women and something must be done.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 01:39 PM   #26
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,144
But all the hoo-hah on Friday was about the Trans Day of Remembrance. Police forces tweeting their solidarity, everyone being exhorted to remember the terrible death toll of the murdered trans people, killed for the crime of wanting to be their authentic selves.

Anybody see police forces going on about violence against women? This Wednesday, you say? We'll see.

Can anyone name any of the trans people murdered in Britain last year? For any motive at all? Someone?
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 01:45 PM   #27
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
It's about money. The domestic violence industry is looking for an increase in funding while tacitly admitting that their efforts over the past decade have been rather ineffective. ...snip...
Anything like evidence for this conspiracy theory?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 01:46 PM   #28
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's about time British people recognized that when British men subject British women to violence it's an attack against all British women as a whole. This violence is just another form of repression by British patriarchal society.

The experts have spoken: Britain hates Women and something must be done.
Again I am assuming you are making some point? If so could you just say whatever the point is, it isn’t easy decoding your cryptic posts.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 01:47 PM   #29
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,320
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Anything like evidence for this conspiracy theory?
When is it even not about money ?
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 01:56 PM   #30
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Elagabalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,742
So strike the J.A.Henckel/Wüsthof complete knife set off the wedding gift list @myregistry.com?
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 02:14 PM   #31
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,830
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
When is it even not about money ?
It’s your claim not mine.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 02:28 PM   #32
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,320
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It’s your claim not mine.
From a link, in the article, in the OP...
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 03:10 PM   #33
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,919
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But if you look at the document I linked to around 75% of all female victims of homicide are killed by a partner so it does look like there is a specific problem with regards to gender of the victims. It seems reasonable to consider that is a specific problem.

Are the majority of male homicide victims killed by their partner. Back to looking.

ETA: This gives quite a different percentage https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2019

Female victims (aged 16 years and over) were more likely to be killed by a partner / ex-partner (38%, 80 homicides), while male victims were more likely to be killed by a friend or acquittance (27%, 105 homicides).

I don't know if this can be of any use for comparison:
Quote:
Under 2019 konstaterades 18 fall av dödligt våld där offer och förövare hade en parrelation vid tidpunkten för brottet eller tidigare, vilket motsvarar en andel på 16 procent av samtliga fall av dödligt våld under året. Det är färre än 2018 då förövare och offer hade en parrelation i 26 fall, vilket utgjorde 24 procent av samtliga fall av dödligt våld 2018. Antalet fall av dödligt våld mot kvinnor där offret och förövaren var eller hade varit i en parrelation uppgick till 16 fall 2019, vilket motsvarar 64 procent av samtliga fall av dödligt våld mot kvinnor under året. Dödligt våld mot män i en parrelation uppgick till 2 fall 2019.
Mord och dråp: Närstående i parrelation (Brottsförebyggande rådet)
Wiki translation:
In 2019, 18 cases of lethal violence were found where victims and perpetrators had a relationship at the time of the crime or earlier, which corresponds to a share of 16 percent of all cases of lethal violence during the year. This is less than in 2018 when perpetrators and victims had a relationship in 26 cases, which was 24 percent of all cases of lethal violence in 2018. The number of cases of lethal violence against women where the victim and perpetrator were or had been in a relationship amounted to 16 cases 2019, which corresponds to 64 percent of all cases of lethal violence against women during the year. Lethal violence against men in a couple relationship amounted to 2 cases in 2019.
Murder and manslaughter: People in couple relationship (Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 03:19 PM   #34
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,711
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
All men should be taxed to pay for their crimes against womanhood. That would be a start.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 03:31 PM   #35
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,711
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But all the hoo-hah on Friday was about the Trans Day of Remembrance. Police forces tweeting their solidarity, everyone being exhorted to remember the terrible death toll of the murdered trans people, killed for the crime of wanting to be their authentic selves.

Anybody see police forces going on about violence against women? This Wednesday, you say? We'll see.

Can anyone name any of the trans people murdered in Britain last year? For any motive at all? Someone?
Exactly. A woman is killed every 3 days by a MAN and no one is concerned about it. The British people care more about some guys dressing up in girls clothes than they do all of the female sex.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 04:07 PM   #36
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,940
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Is this one of those things where if you say there's a problem X, people get mad because you didn't mention problem Y and by not doing so they think you don't care about problem Y?
Let me see.....

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is an interesting table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homici...tics_by_gender

What stands out to me is that in the UK, male and female murderers prefer male victims to about the same degree. Approximately 70% of murder victims are men, regardless of the gender of the murderer.

What I think is scandalous about the Femicide Census in the OP is that it treats murder as a gender issue. Women already have a much better time of it than men, on this issue. To me, it seems like a special kind of douchebaggery to take the problem of murder as being a problem of women getting murdered.

I mean, it's ******* murder. "Oh, if only we could convince our kindly, well-meaning British murderers to spare the weaker sex from their murderous pastimes, we could really pat ourselves on the back for making the world less barbarous."

Like gender equality is gonna be on their minds in the middle of a murder. Let me know when women are getting murdered at a slightly higher rate than men, commensurate with their percentage of the population.
Sooooo, I'm going to go with "Yes..."
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2020, 04:38 PM   #37
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,731
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Let me see.....



Sooooo, I'm going to go with "Yes..."
Well, you're wrong. I just think it's weird and kinda sexist to turn murder into a gender issue, and then focus on the gender that's getting much less of the issue anyway.

Conversely, BLM has a point, since it seems like black people really are overrepresented as victims of police brutality in many parts of the US. But women are underrepresented in murder statistics. So singling women out for special anti-murder efforts just seems like gratuitous gender-baiting. And also anti-feminist.

Last edited by theprestige; 22nd November 2020 at 04:44 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 04:06 PM   #38
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,940
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well, you're wrong. I just think it's weird and kinda sexist to turn murder into a gender issue, and then focus on the gender that's getting much less of the issue anyway.

Conversely, BLM has a point, since it seems like black people really are overrepresented as victims of police brutality in many parts of the US. But women are underrepresented in murder statistics. So singling women out for special anti-murder efforts just seems like gratuitous gender-baiting. And also anti-feminist.
And yet here you are still doing it.

The fact is that women are way over-represented in domestic homicides, predominately by their male partners and ex-partners. So, yeah, that is a gender issue. Yes, that might be a small number of overall murders, but it is the main reason that women are murdered and that makes it worthy of both discussion and research into how to resolve it, and investigation into why it seems that efforts to stem it don't seem to be working well.

It also has nothing to do with men getting murdered or blacks being murdered, those are totally irrelevant to the discussion, but just as TM pointed out, you couldn't help but start jumping up and down about problem Y because it isn't problem X in a "how dare you talk about problem X and not problem Y" way. YM called you out on this argument before you even made it, but you went ahead and did it anyway.

The cool thing, we're humans, we have these brains that allow us to walk and chew gum at the same time. This isn't some zero-sum game where if we talk about the murders of women in acts of Domestic Violence that we somehow relegate all other murders to a state of non-existence and then can totally ignore them from here on out. Rather we can actually discuss and look at the domestic homicide of women, the deaths of blacks at the hands of law enforcement, gang violence, and lots of other things too, all without minimizing any of them. Well some of us can, because it seems that some don't have that ability, or at least have no will to use it.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 04:27 PM   #39
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,731
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And yet here you are still doing it.
Not doing what I was accused of doing. Not everything is about what you imagine it's about.

Quote:
The fact is that women are way over-represented in domestic homicides, predominately by their male partners and ex-partners. So, yeah, that is a gender issue.
And we know why that happens: The vast majority of domestic partnerships are heterosexual, and women are on average weaker than men. We would absolutely expect to see that when bad domestic relationships escalate to physical violence, it's between a man and a woman, and the man tends to prevail. Once you take into account the heterosexual bias in human intimacy, and the physical differences between males and females, I think women probably aren't overrepresented after all.

Plus, the report doesn't focus on domestic violence specifically anyway.

And anyway, what's your solution to the gender inequality in physical violence? Deprecate heterosexuality so there are less of these imbalanced partnerships, thus reducing the overall risk? Encouraging chivalry and a value of protecting the weaker sex, among men?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 05:18 PM   #40
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 13,209
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is an interesting table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homici...tics_by_gender

What stands out to me is that in the UK, male and female murderers prefer male victims to about the same degree. Approximately 70% of murder victims are men, regardless of the gender of the murderer.
I'm not seeing where you're getting this from? I see the breakout of victims of homicide by sex, but no information about the proportion by sex of the perpetrator.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:28 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.