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Old 26th January 2020, 09:58 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Before I could be interested in “what lies beyond the universe” I would need some credible reason to believe that there even is or ever has been a “beyond the universe”.

Then I would need some credible reason to believe there is or ever has been an “intelligence” that resides there, let alone that it “gave rise to the big bang”.

So please help me out – What are your credible reasons for believing there is a “beyond the universe” and an “intelligence beyond the universe that gave rise to the big bang”? If you can do that I would be very, very interested indeed.
Yep. Beyond or before The Big Bang maybe totally nonsensical because time is tied into all this in a bizarre way.

But we are wasting our time with this one YNOT. He's got his story and he's sticking to it. And of course, the story is entirely unfalsifiable. But like all unfalsifiable propositions, it is worthless.
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Old 26th January 2020, 10:07 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
He's got his story and he's sticking to it. And of course, the story is entirely unfalsifiable.
Let me guess: my "story" is that God exists in the gaps (or something).

It just goes to show, if you can't rebut an argument, change the argument.
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Old 26th January 2020, 10:29 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What would a singularity be if it wasn't contained in something?
Don't assume I accept all things theoretical physicists say (which isn't saying they're necessarily wrong). As I understand the singularity/big bang model it doesn't require an outside/beyond universe or multiverse. What would the container of the singularity be contained in, and what would that container be contained in, etc, etc, etc?

But what about this "intelligence" thing of which you speak?

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you heard of the "event horizon"?
Sure, have you heard of cows?
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Old 26th January 2020, 10:33 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yep. Beyond or before The Big Bang maybe totally nonsensical because time is tied into all this in a bizarre way.

But we are wasting our time with this one YNOT. He's got his story and he's sticking to it. And of course, the story is entirely unfalsifiable. But like all unfalsifiable propositions, it is worthless.
Sure, but "this one" isn't the only one reading (I hope).

Besides, at least he's finally revealing some of "his story".
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Old 26th January 2020, 10:45 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Don't assume I accept all things theoretical physicists say (which isn't saying they're necessarily wrong).
You would have to be a schizophrenic if you did.
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Old 26th January 2020, 10:53 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You would have to be a schizophrenic if you did.
To be clear, I don't readily accept the singularity/big bang/expanding universe model. Perhaps if I had the time to learn and understand it better I'd be more likely to accept it more. I hope the leading scientists of the world are smarter than me. But I yam what I yam.
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Old 27th January 2020, 12:29 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What would a singularity be if it wasn't contained in something? Have you heard of the "event horizon"?
Remember "singularity" and "event horizon " are merely English words to label some very high level mathematics. Which part of the maths do you want to discuss?
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Old 27th January 2020, 12:32 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
To be clear, I don't readily accept the singularity/big bang/expanding universe model.
Neither should you. As Carl Sagan wrote once, "nothing is sacred" (in science). Our scientific knowledge has been hit for six many times during our modern history and is likely to change many times more in the future. We really don't have any terrific theories about the origins of the universe therefore it is silly to make a specific claim.

You can't draw conclusions based on a lack of knowledge.
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Old 27th January 2020, 06:20 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can't draw conclusions based on a lack of knowledge.
"But there's a tiny slim chance you're wrong and you have to acknowledge that in this instance and this instance only" is exactly that, with a few layers of special pleading coating on it.

Again the entire concept of belief is just a euphemistic term for "I have special mental powers that allow to know things without facts or evidence" so spare me the speechifying about skeptics' intellectual standards.
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Old 27th January 2020, 06:22 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Neither should you. As Carl Sagan wrote once, "nothing is sacred" (in science).
Carl Sagan also wrote the Dragon in the Garage metaphor specifically to call out backwards burden of proofing special pleading that has been you're entire argument thus far.

So maybe, just maybe, you don't have exactly have your thumb on his pulse.

"Nothing is sacred" doesn't mean "But we have to stop every discussion to slap on a 'I HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE I COULD BE WRONG' modifier whenever the believers or apologist want to talk about God."
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Old 27th January 2020, 08:22 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"But there's a tiny slim chance you're wrong . . . "
You don't even know that it is a "tiny slim chance". Any number you give me about the odds will be entirely made up.
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Old 27th January 2020, 08:26 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You don't even know that it is a "tiny slim chance". Any number you give me about the odds will be entirely made up.
Which is true of literally everything and we're all still waiting on why God is different from the invisible dragon that you can't prove doesn't exist in my garage.

20 GOTO 10, full fringe reset.
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Old 27th January 2020, 08:51 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post

Sure, have you heard of cows?

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Old 27th January 2020, 09:00 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Let me guess: my "story" is that God exists in the gaps (or something).

It just goes to show, if you can't rebut an argument, change the argument.
No, your argument is that God created the Universe and since we don't have information before the Big Bang we don't know. That there is a gap in man's understanding. That is the classic God of the Gaps. It's also unfalsifiable.

Try again.
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Old 27th January 2020, 09:03 AM   #455
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It's a perfect, intellectual deadzone.

We don't know therefore God so God is the answer to everything, but God works in mysterious ways so we can never actually understand it. So by going "God diddit" we don't actually know anything new since we don't know anything about God, but we have an "answer" that isn't answer that can invoked.

The last of mankind's great Gods to die is going to be the one that is functionally identical to just not knowing.
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Old 27th January 2020, 09:03 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You don't even know that it is a "tiny slim chance". Any number you give me about the odds will be entirely made up.
As is the intelligence you claim caused the Big Bang.
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Old 27th January 2020, 09:25 AM   #457
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When Does Religion Become Just Silly?

For at least one religion - "In the beginning......"
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Old 27th January 2020, 09:27 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's a perfect, intellectual deadzone.

We don't know therefore God so God is the answer to everything, but God works in mysterious ways so we can never actually understand it. So by going "God diddit" we don't actually know anything new since we don't know anything about God, but we have an "answer" that isn't answer that can invoked.

The last of mankind's great Gods to die is going to be the one that is functionally identical to just not knowing.
And of course the god that matches that description would be utterly unlike any god religions posit exists.

We have had the ontological, we've had the nobody can know, we've had the redefine god to no longer be the good of the religious and we've had it's quantum. So yep reset it will be.
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Old 27th January 2020, 09:28 AM   #459
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Indeed. "God did it with magic in a way we can never understand" isn't an answer.

It's also not the God that anyone actually believes in.

This discussion has not moved forward in about 10 pages now. It's almost getting Jabbian.
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Old 27th January 2020, 09:40 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
For at least one religion - "In the beginning......"
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:23 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, your argument is that God created the Universe . . . .
I knew that you weren't paying attention.

This is what happens when you are too busy banging your own drum. You don't even know what you are arguing against.
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:26 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I knew that you weren't paying attention.

This is what happens when you are too busy banging your own drum. You don't even know what you are arguing against.
Then please take two seconds and clarify your points.

Because all of us are confused as to what they are and we all haven't just up decided to all misunderstand you in the same way.

Maybe, just maybe, you aren't making your points very well.

You've said nothing but "You can't say that God didn't do it because he's magic and special because I special pleading definitions into him that say he could have."

Say something that isn't that and we'll address it, I promise you.

And no before you hijack I don't care whether these are arguments that you literally personally believe in (as if that makes a difference) or are arguments you just trot out in discussions.

Goddamn at this rate you're gonna start claiming you can prove immortality soon.
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:26 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And of course the god that matches that description would be utterly unlike any god religions posit exists.
That silly nonsense has been totally demolished. I quoted all 3 religious texts of the Abrahamic God which all say, "God created the universe".
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:28 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Then please take two seconds and clarify your points.
I don't see the need to repeat myself yet again. You are not going to read what I write as long as there is a nice juicy strawman that you can deal with instead.
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:28 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That silly nonsense has been totally demolished. I quoted all 3 religious texts of the Abrahamic God which all say, "God created the universe".
Yeah but he didn't then go away.

Doesn't the Bible say something about bearing false witness?
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:30 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't see the need to repeat myself yet again. You are not going to read what I write as long as there is a nice juicy strawman that you can deal with instead.
Okay. No less then 3 or 4 people are just not listening to you and mis-interpreting you all in the same way and it's totally not your fault.

Get down off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and use the bridge to get over yourself.
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:07 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I knew that you weren't paying attention.

This is what happens when you are too busy banging your own drum. You don't even know what you are arguing against.
No. That is your argument. That some mystical magical being created the Universe.

God = Creator of the universe.
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:28 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No. That is your argument. That some mystical magical being created the Universe.
No, that is your strawman. It is much easier to rebut that than to rebut the idea that there is no information on which to deal with whether a creator was or was not involved with the origins of the universe.
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:31 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, that is your strawman. It is much easier to rebut that than to rebut the idea that there is no information on which to deal with whether a creator was or was not involved with the origins of the universe.
*Head desk*

"But we can't know for sure, therefore maybe God" is not a strawman it's literally what you are saying.

This is going from dishonest debating to outright lying at this point.

Nobody is strawmanning you into claiming there is a God. We are disagreeing with your "Tiny sliver of doubt, therefore a God that has to be acknowledged and can't be declaratively said to not exist" argument.

Do you even know what strawman means or are you just another theist/apologist who heard the word used against them so many times you think it's just a magic word to use when you're losing an argument?

This is now like 10 posts in a row of "OMG THAT's nOT wHAt I'M saYing!" instead of just goddamn clarify what you are saying.
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:36 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Head desk*

"But we can't know for sure, therefore maybe God" is not a strawman it's literally what you are saying.

This is going from dishonest debating to outright lying at this point.

Nobody is strawmanning you into claiming there is a God. We are disagreeing with your "Tiny sliver of doubt, therefore a God that has to be acknowledged and can't be declaratively said to not exist" argument.

Do you even know what strawman means or are you just another theist/apologist who heard the word used against them so many times you think it's just a magic word to use when you're losing an argument?

This is now like 10 posts in a row of "OMG THAT's nOT wHAt I'M saYing!" instead of just goddamn clarify what you are saying.
Which is why I said earlier . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Just as I predicted/expected. Not only do you want to hide your believed god in vagueness, you also want to hide your god beliefs in vagueness as well. Totally dishonest and cowardly tactics.
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:43 AM   #471
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I never did get a coherent answer this . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
So please help me out – What are your credible reasons for believing there is a “beyond the universe” and an “intelligence beyond the universe that gave rise to the big bang”? If you can do that I would be very, very interested indeed.
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:50 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, that is your strawman. It is much easier to rebut that than to rebut the idea that there is no information on which to deal with whether a creator was or was not involved with the origins of the universe.
Sure, but do you BELIEVE there was/is a creator that was involved with the origins of the universe, regardless that you can't KNOW? A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

In other words, are you a theist or an atheist? (waits for - "Neither")
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:53 AM   #473
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I just love this. It's our fault for misinterpreting that an intelligence beyond the universe that gave rise to the Big Bang means a God. Huh?

"An Intelligence that gave rise to the universe". What the hell would you call that?
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Old 27th January 2020, 12:03 PM   #474
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Saying this . . .
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Fine. So you are not interested in what lies beyond the universe
is NOT saying this - "So you are not interested in what might lie beyond the universe"
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Old 27th January 2020, 12:04 PM   #475
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"We've looked everywhere but have to keep looking for God because he might lie outside of 'everywhere.'" is like trying to keep going North when you're at the North pole.

Concepts like "Outside reality" and "Outside the universe" are just more special pleading.

It's like saying 2+2=4 in math, but maybe it equals something "outside Math."

See? It's not deep it's just stupid.
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:10 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That silly nonsense has been totally demolished. I quoted all 3 religious texts of the Abrahamic God which all say, "God created the universe".
Nope, not all those religions say that.

Please reread the posts that I demonstrated what I had claimed was true.

Sadly I suspect you will continue to lie.
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:34 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I just love this. It's our fault for misinterpreting that an intelligence beyond the universe that gave rise to the Big Bang means a God. Huh?

"An Intelligence that gave rise to the universe". What the hell would you call that?
Alan Guth? Or someone like him...

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/04/14/s...literally.html

I don't know if Guth still thinks this is possible, but it does show that -maybe- a universe creator wouldn't have to be any sort of god at all. It is also at bit funny when you consider that his name is pretty close to the word "god", especially in the scandinavian languages ("gud")!
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:36 PM   #478
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People have been "claiming" stuff about God roughly as long as we've been human.

We don't have to carry the intellectual baggage of every random thought about God forever.

I don't have to account for every random philosopher, theologian, stoner, and internet commentators version of God with every variable, excuse, special pleading accounted for anymore then I have to define whether or not a 3 toed or 4 toed invisible dragon doesn't live in my garage.
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:52 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"We've looked everywhere but have to keep looking for God because he might lie outside of 'everywhere.'" is like trying to keep going North when you're at the North pole.

Concepts like "Outside reality" and "Outside the universe" are just more special pleading.

It's like saying 2+2=4 in math, but maybe it equals something "outside Math."

See? It's not deep it's just stupid.

I wouldn't go so far to say it's stupid.

It is like hard solopsism. We cannot prove that there isn't anything outside our mind is real. Or that everything we see feel and touch is just code of some powerful computer and we are just programs in the machine/the matrix.

But while it is an interesting idea to ponder for a few moments, beyond that, it is useless.
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:53 PM   #480
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Well I find solopsism, in any version, stupid.

And much like the Watchmaker God or other God built out of Special Pleadings you'll never actually meet a solopsist outside a padded room.

I can entertain something on a purely intellectual level as much as the next person, but when something isn't just detached from the real world but purposely built to be detached from the real world, I really, really fail to see the point.
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- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

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