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Old 29th January 2020, 08:10 AM   #601
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You have a knack for not answering questions.
IE I gave an answer that you can't refute.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:11 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
One is the result of speculating the existence of a god and the other is an artificial limitation you place on the powers of a non-existent god?
We've already rejected "God is different because he's magic and he's magic because he's God."

Try again.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:11 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
One is the result of speculating the existence of a god and the other is an artificial limitation you place on the powers of a non-existent god?
Your pgod is unlike any god the religions describe. It is also simply an assertion.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:12 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
One is the result of speculating the existence of a god and the other is an artificial limitation you place on the powers of a non-existent god?
As I suspected, you have no idea what the word "undetectable" means. Your response to Joe about it is a fine demonstration of it. Everyone who peddles the argument you've been championing in this thread makes the same mistake, so it's no surprise.

Undetectable doesn't mean that we can't see it with our eyes, or that we don't have tools to detect it now. It means that it cannot be observed in any way even in principle. Joe asked you what the difference was between that and non-existence, and you replied about particles we can't as yet observe, demonstrating that you don't understand the question.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
IE I gave an answer that you can't refute.
Oops. I bet you feel embarrassed now!
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:12 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
IE I gave an answer that you can't refute.
Sure if "Prove the thing I won't define doesn't exist" counts.

You haven't refuted my garage dragon yet either.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:14 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I agree that is an assertion you have made. You have no way to evidence that assertion.

Plus of course yet again that is not a god that religions claim exist. So as I may have mentioned once or twice the god you claim may exist is not a god any of the religions claim exists.
So now you are claiming that not only does nobody believe in a god that can create the universe but that nobody believes that such a god could be invisible?

I think it's time you took a poll of believers. You would be shocked to learn what they believe.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:15 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So now you are claiming that not only does nobody believe in a god that can create the universe but that nobody believes that such a god could be invisible?
No. Stop lying. Or at least learn to read.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:15 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Undetectable doesn't mean that we can't see it with our eyes, or that we don't have tools to detect it now. It means that it cannot be observed in any way even in principle.
So you think that the components of a quark can be observed in principle? Good luck with that.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:16 AM   #609
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At this point Psion's argument is "Tell you what, just start listing off things you can prove don't exist and I'll tell you when one of them is God."
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:17 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So you think that the components of a quark can be observed in principle? Good luck with that.
Yes. The giant invisible wizard in the sky that created the universe is a sub-atomic particle in a quantum state. That makes perfect sense.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:20 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So you think that the components of a quark can be observed in principle? Good luck with that.
In your haste to dismiss my post you forgot to think.

Quarks were not observed... until they were. They were observable in principle well before we made the actual oservation. Ditto for the protons they are components to. Ditto for the atoms, molecules, etc.

You continue to display your misunderstanding of what's being discussed. I suspect it's because you've committed to the idea of disagreeing with us no matter what, and now you're stuck with that position and can't back out without condeding defeat, which presumably you'd see as a great wound to your pride. I assure you, admitting error carries no such stigma. Sunk cost doesn't mean you need to burn more cash into your enterprise.

Undetectable means cannot be detected even in principle. You don't know whether a hypothetical component of quarks can be detected or not; but you have defined god as undetectable, and Joe's point cuts at the heart of the issue: if it's completely undetectable, to the point where it in fact does not interact with our reality, can it be said to exist at all?
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:20 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your pgod is unlike any god the religions describe. It is also simply an assertion.
Some of the biggest nutters in this forum repeat the same assertion ad-nauseum no matter how often nor how thoroughly the assertion is rebutted. We have some infamously long threads because of this.

You are supposed to know that critical thinking doesn't work that way. Tell me which characteristics I have mentioned that nobody believes in. So far you have only provided evidence that the Jewish religion doesn't subscribe to a god that created the universe and that is a long way from "nobody" subscribes to that view.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:21 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You don't know whether a hypothetical component of quarks can be detected or not; but you have defined god as undetectable, and Joe's point cuts at the heart of the issue: if it's completely undetable, to the point where it in fact does not interact with our reality, can it be said to exist at all?
And Psion, before you answer remember "God is different because he's magic and God is magic because he's God" isn't an answer.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:23 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Some of the biggest nutters in this forum repeat the same assertion ad-nauseum no matter how often nor how thoroughly the assertion is rebutted. We have some infamously long threads because of this.
Yeah. And you're Jabba in the Jabba thread right now, not anyone else.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:24 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Some of the biggest nutters in this forum repeat the same assertion ad-nauseum no matter how often nor how thoroughly the assertion is rebutted.
The irony is smothering.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:30 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The irony is smothering.
The difference is that I rebut the counter arguments.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Undetectable means cannot be detected even in principle. You don't know whether a hypothetical component of quarks can be detected or not; but you have defined god as undetectable, and Joe's point cuts at the heart of the issue: if it's completely undetectable, to the point where it in fact does not interact with our reality, can it be said to exist at all?
I said that a god with the power to create a universe also has the power to render himself undetectable. We don't know if such a god would make himself permanently undetectable or if he would "go away"and leave us alone or anything else.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:31 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I said that a god with the power to create a universe also has the power to render himself undetectable
I know you did, and I've addressed this already. However you are, as usual, dodging the question: if it's completely undetectable, to the point where it in fact does not interact with our reality, can it be said to exist at all?

Quote:
The difference is that I rebut the counter arguments.
I'm not sure you know what that word means, either.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:32 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The difference is that I rebut the counter arguments.
Special pleadings that are all "God is different because he's magic" aren't counters.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:35 AM   #619
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I also refuted every counter to why there is no dragon in my garage.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:38 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I have simply shown that your god is not a god that any of the religions I know about share, as far as I can tell there is not a single. religion that defines their god as you define your god.
Yes there is. It is the PSION religion. There are as many religions as there are people who believe in a God. There are 10,000 different Christian denominations each with their own take and believe me all the parishioners have their own take.

PSION is no different then all of them in that he has his own personal religion.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:40 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So now you are claiming that not only does nobody believe in a god that can create the universe but that nobody believes that such a god could be invisible?

I think it's time you took a poll of believers. You would be shocked to learn what they believe.
Again you fail to address what I have posted and have created a strawman. As the strawman is your creation I find I must leave it to you to argue against.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:52 AM   #622
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I think at this point we've fairly well established what we are dealing with isn't God meaningful sense of the term, it's the vaguer, broader idea of a God belief.

Problem is that only works if you... like don't think about it too hard and keep it all vague and sort go into the debate expecting others to do the same. It's why this particular, by the book strain of apologetics reacts the same way every time in such a predictable, by the books manner. I can snap my fingers to this beat by now.

That's why Psion's God is nothing but a "Everything we don't understand" catchall built on special pleadings. Because there's no concept or idea really there.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:01 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think at this point we've fairly well established what we are dealing with isn't God meaningful sense of the term, it's the vaguer, broader idea of a God belief.

Problem is that only works if you... like don't think about it too hard and keep it all vague and sort go into the debate expecting others to do the same. It's why this particular, by the book strain of apologetics reacts the same way every time in such a predictable, by the books manner. I can snap my fingers to this beat by now.

That's why Psion's God is nothing but a "Everything we don't understand" catchall built on special pleadings. Because there's no concept or idea really there.
The issue here is that Psion doesn't acknowledge that you can safely say that something extremely unlikely, or undetectable, doesn't exist, even if you're not 100% sure. It's a very pragmatic, and almost always correct, way to deal with the unknown and with extraordinary claims: you prove your claim, otherwise I'll consider it false. The burden isn't on me.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:04 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The issue here is that Psion doesn't acknowledge that you can safely that something extremely unlikely, or undetectable, doesn't exist, even if you're not 100% sure. It's a very pragmatic, and almost always correct, way to deal with the unknown and with extraordinary claims: you prove your claim, otherwise I'll consider it false. The burden isn't on me.
Which is why for 10 pages now I've been patiently waiting for Psion to either prove to me that a dragon doesn't live in my garage or tell me what the difference is.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:07 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Which is why for 10 pages now I've been patiently waiting for Psion to either prove to me that a dragon doesn't live in my garage or tell me what the difference is.
The evidence is in the big bang singularity or in the components of quarks, I think.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:08 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The evidence is in the big bang singularity or in the components of quarks, I think.
Oh my dragon caused those too. He's magic. He created the universe. He's undetectable except when he isn't.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:19 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again you fail to address what I have posted and have created a strawman. As the strawman is your creation I find I must leave it to you to argue against.
Well at least that is something different.

So far all you have said is that nobody believes in "my pgod". Since all I have said is that a god may exist that can create the universe and render himself undetectable.

Are you now saying that it is a different type of "pgod" that nobody believes in?
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:21 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Special pleadings that are all "God is different because he's magic" aren't counters.
It's a good thing that I don't say that then.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:22 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I know you did, and I've addressed this already. However you are, as usual, dodging the question: if it's completely undetectable, to the point where it in fact does not interact with our reality, can it be said to exist at all?
Oops! You accidentally deleted the rest of that quote. No wonder it appears as if I didn't answer your question.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:23 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's a good thing that I don't say that then.
"I never said 4, I only said 2+2"

Tell me what to call a being that created the universe but is undetectable because you say so.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:24 AM   #631
psionl0
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I never said 4, I only said 2+2"
It's a good thing that I don't say that either.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Tell me what to call a being that created the universe but is undetectable because you say so.
Why would I answer a strawman like that? I have already discussed the undetectable issue.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:25 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Oops! You accidentally deleted the rest of that quote. No wonder it appears as if I didn't answer your question.
I cut it out because it's irrelevant.

Is there anything you won't use as an excuse to avoid answering people's points, arguments and questions?
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:28 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I cut it out because it's irrelevant I can't answer it.
ftfy.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:28 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why would I answer a strawman like that? I have already discussed the undetectable issue.
"God's magic"

Yeah we heard you.
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- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:32 AM   #635
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Psion at this point you could replaced in this thread by a Bot with a 1-3 random number generator assigned to:

1. "But I already answered that"
2. "God's special because of Special Pleading"
3. "That's a strawman."
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- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

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Old 29th January 2020, 10:06 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's a good thing that I don't say that either.


Why would I answer a strawman like that? I have already discussed the undetectable issue.
Why is it you will only say what you don't believe in and only allude to saying what you do?

You do get that for all intents and purposes, an undetectable God is exactly like a God that doesn't exist? Until you can show how it can be detected it is merely cloud castles and only exists in your mind.
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Old 29th January 2020, 10:09 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why is it you will only say what you don't believe in and only allude to saying what you do?
Because that's how apologetics works.

This whole house of cards will fall down the second he actually says anything concrete.

We're battling against the burden of proof against a vague, undefined, second hand reported God idea of an idea of God.

That's why it's been nothing but "I'm not saying that, no I won't tell you what I am saying because I already said it even though I didn't."
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- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
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Old 29th January 2020, 10:28 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because that's how apologetics works.

This whole house of cards will fall down the second he actually says anything concrete.

We're battling against the burden of proof against a vague, undefined, second hand reported God idea of an idea of God.

That's why it's been nothing but "I'm not saying that, no I won't tell you what I am saying because I already said it even though I didn't."
In all fairness to other apologists out there Joe, that is not how apologetics works. Sure, they always reach a point where they are at a loss. But usually they are not afraid to say what they believe in.
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Old 29th January 2020, 10:31 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In all fairness to other apologists out there Joe, that is not how apologetics works. Sure, they always reach a point where they are at a loss. But usually they are not afraid to say what they believe in.
I'll take your word for that, because it's a phenomenon I've not encountered that often in recent years.
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- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
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Old 29th January 2020, 10:48 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.
Don't delude yourself. I'm sure you think the comment was really clever and pertinent. I assure you, it was not.

If god's permanently undetectable it's the same thing as being undetectable. If he's detectable some of the time, then he's detectable. You're just playing with words, but neither of those options help your argument.

Are you EVER going to directly address our points to you?
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