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Old 30th January 2020, 12:20 PM   #681
ynot
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You could ask exactly the same question about random chance. AFAIK there is no such thing as "random chance" - just events that can't be controlled or predicted (that's why we get so many discussions about determinism). Sure, if you assume that something is random you can get the mathematics to work out but that doesn't prove that something called "random" is controlling anything.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong about this. In science, nothing is sacred.
Well I got a response, but I didn’t get an answer. All I got was obfuscation and a poor explanation from a poor understanding of evolution and the term “random”.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You could say it was all random chance or that an existing set of natural laws dictate that a complex universe had to spring up. These alternatives to an intelligence have inadequacies of their own but they are just as valid scientifically as a being who's nature no two people can agree on.
Your above post is essentially claiming that creation by a supernatural god’s intelligent design is as scientifically valid as evolution by random mutation and non-random natural selection.

I asked you what is scientifically valid about a supernatural god and didn’t get an answer. You made the claim so the “burden of proof” is on you, I didn’t make any claim than requires any proof. However - There’s a plethora of scientifically valid proofs regarding evolution by random mutation and non-random natural selection available on the internet. Where do I find your scientifically valid proofs regarding creation by a supernatural god’s intelligent design?

“Random” isn't a control, it’s a natural cause and effect process that’s too complicated and complex to predict the outcome (put simply). Butterfly wings control everything.

Nothing is sacred in science because gods aren’t scientifically valid.
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Old 30th January 2020, 12:24 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That doesn't mean you can just reverse the burden on proof on unsupported claims, that it justifies JAQing Off, or that it allows you to pick and choose which "technically possible" things have to be acknowledged.
Nothing is sacred except ignorance, I think, is what he meant.
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Old 30th January 2020, 02:55 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
These alternatives to an intelligence have inadequacies of their own but they are just as valid scientifically as a being who's nature no two people can agree on.
The God no two people can agree on isn't "religion" though. Religion is when loads of people agree on the nature of God and use that agreement to order their lives, control society, start wars etc. It may be true that they don't actually agree among themselves, but they will hang together vs. the heathen "other," believing or at least claiming that God is on their side.

When religion becomes silly and whether something like God could possibly exist are two different issues to me, but they are often conflated, in this forum and elsewhere.

I think I understand where you're coming from ... We don't have evidence of life on other planets but that doesn't cause most people to conclude it can't possibly exist.
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Old 30th January 2020, 03:21 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The God no two people can agree on isn't "religion" though. Religion is when loads of people agree on the nature of God and use that agreement to order their lives, control society, start wars etc. It may be true that they don't actually agree among themselves, but they will hang together vs. the heathen "other," believing or at least claiming that God is on their side.

When religion becomes silly and whether something like God could possibly exist are two different issues to me, but they are often conflated, in this forum and elsewhere.

I think I understand where you're coming from ... We don't have evidence of life on other planets but that doesn't cause most people to conclude it can't possibly exist.
We have absolute proof that natural life can and does exist (you're an example of such proof). so it's not a big stretch to assume it may exist on other planets.

We have absolutely no proof that supernatural phenomena exists, let alone supernatural life, so it's a reeeeeaaally big stretch to assume it may exist anywhere at all.

Do you really think knowing natural life exists is even remotely comparable to believing supernatural life exists?
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:08 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The God no two people can agree on isn't "religion" though. Religion is when loads of people agree on the nature of God and use that agreement to order their lives, control society, start wars etc. It may be true that they don't actually agree among themselves, but they will hang together vs. the heathen "other," believing or at least claiming that God is on their side.
If you have your own personal god, that is not shared by others and he/she talks to you, you are a nutter. Most would agreeI think. Even if a small group are as one in their belief, we tend to think of them all as nutters. How big does a group have to be I wonder, when we reach the cut of point and we call the adherents just religious, not nutters?

It is my view that all the religious have a personal god only existing in their own heads. They may base the identity of their god on some model presented by a mainstream religion, but they hang their personal decorations on it to suit their needs. Conclusion ....... they are all nutters.

Quote:
I think I understand where you're coming from ... We don't have evidence of life on other planets but that doesn't cause most people to conclude it can't possibly exist.
From my own observations I find those who deny the possibility of life on other planets, are most often the Abrahamic God believers. Sort of goes with the territory of believing Earth is God's special place. After all he spent all of the six days apart from the "He made the stars also" part of one day.

So you can see where psion is coming from. Do you have any idea of where he is going however?
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:23 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Well duh!
Great response. Start by mocking my stupidity.

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Do you really think knowing natural life exists is even remotely comparable to believing supernatural life exists?
I'm not really talking about natural vs. supernatural, just giving an example of the limits of our knowledge.
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:33 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Great response. Start by mocking my stupidity.
Very sorry. Your post "triggered" me

I removed it
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:47 PM   #688
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Just because we can't prove with 100% certainty that some form of a god does not exist somewhere (particularly those gods who seem made-to-order to be non-detectable) doesn't mean we have no data.

For a few hundred years now every time we've found the cause of something we thought was done by some god, it turns out it wasn't. This has happened enough that this says to me we can say the null hypothesis is that there is no god.

So if someone says "There is no god" or "I think there is no god" (or other flavors of that) with no qualifications; no problem, no explanation needed.

But if someone says there is a god, then the burden of proof is on them, and we need to see some good evidence.
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:49 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
How big does a group have to be I wonder, when we reach the cut of point and we call the adherents just religious, not nutters?
For me personally? I don't think I apply the "nutters" label as generously as you do.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
It is my view that all the religious have a personal god only existing in their own heads. They may base the identity of their god on some model presented by a mainstream religion, but they hang their personal decorations on it to suit.
Maybe you're right. For the purpose of passing laws and oppressing other people and fighting religious wars, though, some definable doctrinal differences between "us" and "them" seem necessary. ... Even if ultimately each individual is a minority of one.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
From my own observations I find those who deny the possibility of life on other planets, are most often the Abrahamic God believers. Sort of goes with the territory of believing Earth is God's special place. After all he spent all of the six days apart from the "He made the stars also" part of one day.
I don't get in enough conversations about it to really know. I can see where that might be the case. But I don't ask most people if they are biblical literalists, to begin with, so my data points would be limited.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So you can see where psion is coming from. Do you have any idea of where he is going however?
No. From lurking it just seems to be basic contrarianism, but I haven't searched out the body of work.
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Old 30th January 2020, 05:07 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Very sorry. Your post "triggered" me

I removed it
Thanks.

Did you ever have specific beliefs, like acbytesla or arthwollipot? I don't think I ever did, though I might be misremembering. I never had religion crammed down my throat, either. There was no de-conversion moment when the scales fell from my eyes. That's not necessary to be an atheist, but it's a fairly common experience. Every time I tried to dive into scripture, any religion's scripture, it all just seemed weird to me. The Christianity I was exposed to was a fairly harsh and unforgiving strain, though that may have just been my grandmother's personality. She was big on hellfire.

I keep wondering if I'm ever going to feel like an atheist. By some definitions I am one.
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Old 30th January 2020, 05:26 PM   #691
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Thanks.

Did you ever have specific beliefs, like acbytesla or arthwollipot? I don't think I ever did, though I might be misremembering. I never had religion crammed down my throat, either. There was no de-conversion moment when the scales fell from my eyes. That's not necessary to be an atheist, but it's a fairly common experience. Every time I tried to dive into scripture, any religion's scripture, it all just seemed weird to me. The Christianity I was exposed to was a fairly harsh and unforgiving strain, though that may have just been my grandmother's personality. She was big on hellfire.

I keep wondering if I'm ever going to feel like an atheist. By some definitions I am one.
I’ve never had any god beliefs or any other paranormal/supernatural beliefs for even a second. Guess I must be spiritually handicapped .

I'm not fussed with labels but I'm happy to accept the "atheist" label as a pathetically small contribution toward normalising atheism.
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Old 30th January 2020, 05:26 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
How is your argument changed if you remove this?
How is this changed if you remove the rest of your post?
Now that I know that you're going to focus your entire attention on a single supplementary clause rather than on the argument I'm actually making, I would change that clause to read "Even if I grant that such an entity is logically possible...".
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Old 30th January 2020, 05:29 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
For me personally? I don't think I apply the "nutters" label as generously as you do.
I was being a bit flippant to be honest.

Quote:
Maybe you're right. For the purpose of passing laws and oppressing other people and fighting religious wars, though, some definable doctrinal differences between "us" and "them" seem necessary. ... Even if ultimately each individual is a minority of one.
True

Quote:
I don't get in enough conversations about it to really know. I can see where that might be the case. But I don't ask most people if they are biblical literalists, to begin with, so my data points would be limited.
Well I have had quite a few conversations with the religious. My brother was a born again job and all his friends, after he was blinded by the light, were as well. I met quite a few. My brothers son took to Christianity like a duck to water. I guess he never really had a chance. My brother (now deceased) was a moderate compared to his son, who chats to Jesus on a daily basis.

Quote:
No. From lurking it just seems to be basic contrarianism, but I haven't searched out the body of work.
Contrary? My take on it also.
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Old 30th January 2020, 06:12 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Now that I know that you're going to focus your entire attention on a single supplementary clause rather than on the argument I'm actually making, I would change that clause to read "Even if I grant that such an entity is logically possible...".
I thought you would've known that by virtue of the fact I only quoted the single supplementary clause. To be fair, I've made the same mistake myself at least a few times. We sometimes get over-focused on what we want talk about and don't see the other person is taking about something different.

I would have no problem with the amended clause, but I'm not sure it's a recognition that the original was in error.
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Old 30th January 2020, 06:39 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well I have had quite a few conversations with the religious. My brother was a born again job and all his friends, after he was blinded by the light, were as well. I met quite a few. My brothers son took to Christianity like a duck to water. I guess he never really had a chance. My brother (now deceased) was a moderate compared to his son, who chats to Jesus on a daily basis.
I've been exposed to a lot of different Christianities. My aunt's born-againism was totally different than Grandma's Church of Christ hellfire. My mother ended up with some mild beliefs that fit in well on this Congregationalist campus, even though she was never a Congregationalist and I'm pretty sure my grandmother would disapprove.
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Old 30th January 2020, 07:22 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I would have no problem with the amended clause, but I'm not sure it's a recognition that the original was in error.
Well obviously that's because you and I have a different opinion about whether it was. Can we move on now?
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Old 30th January 2020, 08:09 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The God no two people can agree on isn't "religion" though. Religion is when loads of people agree on the nature of God and use that agreement to order their lives, control society, start wars etc. It may be true that they don't actually agree among themselves, but they will hang together vs. the heathen "other," believing or at least claiming that God is on their side.
I would have thought that religion simply meant being religious or believing in god(s). Not all religious people belong to a sect or behave differently because of their beliefs.

You are right that many people use religion to further their own private agenda and that can make religion dangerous.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
When religion becomes silly and whether something like God could possibly exist are two different issues to me, but they are often conflated, in this forum and elsewhere.

I think I understand where you're coming from ... We don't have evidence of life on other planets but that doesn't cause most people to conclude it can't possibly exist.
The analogy is not quite the same. We know that a process gave rise to life on earth and it is not unreasonable to presume that the same process has occurred (and will occur) in other parts of the universe. OTOH we don't have any knowledge of instances of other universes exploding from a singularity so we only have a sample size of 1 instead of 10many zeros.

As I have maintained all along, the silliness comes from claiming that you "know" the answers. This applies equally to people who claim to know what (their) god is all about as it does to people who claim that it is impossible (or extremely improbable) for a god to be involved in any of it.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
No. From lurking it just seems to be basic contrarianism, but I haven't searched out the body of work.
I have been on message throughout. It is probably hard to tell from the many attempted derails and angry personal attacks made against me for daring to say we don't have the answers.

I suspect that some posters would have me burned at the stake for daring to question atheism.
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Old 30th January 2020, 08:17 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I suspect that some posters would have me burned at the stake for daring to question atheism.
I think you're mixing us up with religious people.
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Old 30th January 2020, 08:22 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think you're mixing us up with religious people.
No I'm not.
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Old 30th January 2020, 09:50 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No I'm not.
The only people who have ever burned people at the stake are religious people.
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Old 30th January 2020, 09:58 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The only people who have ever burned people at the stake are religious people.
I'm not saying that you would like to burn me at the stake.
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Old 30th January 2020, 10:08 PM   #702
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Lightbulb

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I would have thought that religion simply meant being religious or believing in god(s).
When I think of religion I think of creeds or doctrines shared in a community. But maybe that's just me.
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Old 30th January 2020, 10:10 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm not saying that you would like to burn me at the stake.
Why thank you.
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Old 30th January 2020, 10:17 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
When I think of religion I think of creeds or doctrines shared in a community. But maybe that's just me.
According to https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion we are both right.

ETA before somebody else points out my stupidity, in my earlier answer, I should have written 10big number and not 10many zeros.
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Old 31st January 2020, 12:47 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
When I think of religion I think of creeds or doctrines shared in a community. But maybe that's just me.
psionI0 has tended to use their own rather idiosyncratic definitions in this thread, and I suspect this is another, example like their use of the word "god".
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:23 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
psionI0 has tended to use their own rather idiosyncratic definitions in this thread, and I suspect this is another, example like their use of the word "god".
You reject ALL gods. Do you not reject the "pgod" that you falsely allege that I created?
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:04 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Crickets. I guess the answer is no, then.
Still crickets.

The answer's definitely no.
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Old 31st January 2020, 06:44 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You reject ALL gods. Do you not reject the "pgod" that you falsely allege that I created?
I don't believe in any of the gods that the religions (I know of) claim exist and I don't of course believe in any undefined "god".

I can go further and state that for all the gods (again that I know of) that the religions claim exist I know they do not exist, because their definitions are incompatible with the facts.

As for your nonrelgion "god" I do not believe in it. I wait for your evidence of its existence before I can decide if I believe in it or not.

By the way which god do you not reject?
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Old 31st January 2020, 08:16 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You reject ALL gods. Do you not reject the "pgod" that you falsely allege that I created?
You reject ALL dragons that live in my garage!
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Old 31st January 2020, 08:17 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I suspect that some posters would have me burned at the stake for daring to question atheism.
I am shocked, shocked I say, that a religious apologist would fall back on martyrdom.

It must be sooooo hard to be a religious person. The world is just soooooo out to get you.
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Old 31st January 2020, 09:39 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As for your nonrelgion "god" I do not believe in it.
Your behaviour in this thread proves that I never created a "nonrelgion" god - let alone one with characteristics that nobody believes in.

Every time I have asked you to list the characteristics of this allegedly "unique" god that nobody believes in you have ducked for cover . . . . .

. . . . only to reappear a few days later and repost your nonsense as if nobody has challenged your claim.
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Old 31st January 2020, 09:48 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Your behaviour in this thread proves that I never created a "nonrelgion" god - let alone one with characteristics that nobody believes in.

Every time I have asked you to list the characteristics of this allegedly "unique" god that nobody believes in you have ducked for cover . . . . .

. . . . only to reappear a few days later and repost your nonsense as if nobody has challenged your claim.
Which god do you not reject?
ETA: Remember you reject the god defined by the Abrahamic relgions and the gods of the Hindu relgions.
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Old 31st January 2020, 09:51 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I am shocked, shocked I say, that a religious apologist would fall back on martyrdom.

It must be sooooo hard to be a religious person. The world is just soooooo out to get you.
That post shows the heart of the problem: Psion thinks he's the teacher, here to free us of our pagan beliefs. It never occurs to him, despite paying lip service to it, that he could be in the wrong.
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Old 31st January 2020, 09:54 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That post shows the heart of the problem: Psion thinks he's the teacher, here to free us of our pagan beliefs. It never occurs to him, despite paying lip service to it, that he could be in the wrong.
And again it's the same old game.

- I can totally argue that there might be a God. ("There might be a God.")
- Okay well I can totally argue the technicalities of the argument about God. ("I'm not saying there might be a God, I'm just saying you are aren't there isn't a God the right way.")
- Okay I can totally argue that I still have the right to say their might be a God. ("Oh so you just want police people's thoughts...")
- Martyrdom ("Oh I guess you atheist just want to drag me off the re-education camps or throw me in the looney bin.")
- Pure witnessing.
- Flouncing.
- Full fringe reset next time we have the discussion.
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Old 31st January 2020, 11:48 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which god do you not reject?
ETA: Remember you reject the god defined by the Abrahamic relgions and the gods of the Hindu relgions.
Who said that I rejected either of these two gods? (Give me the post number).
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Old 31st January 2020, 11:54 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Who said that I rejected either of these two gods? (Give me the post number).
You know, at some point, when you have to remind everyone of what you didn't say, it might be a good idea to tell them what you're actually saying, just so that everyone's clear.
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:18 PM   #717
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which god do you not reject?
ETA: Remember you reject the god defined by the Abrahamic relgions and the gods of the Hindu relgions.
I suspect it may be nothing more substantive than the "There must be something" god.
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:29 PM   #718
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well obviously that's because you and I have a different opinion about whether it was. Can we move on now?
If you want to believe “it is true that a seven legged, three winged fire breathing, five headed, invisible, magical dragon is logically possible”, then moving on is a good idea.
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:40 PM   #719
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Who said that I rejected either of these two gods? (Give me the post number).
Argumentum ad Ambiguity

Allows a disingenuous debater to claim . . .
“I didn’t say that”
“I did say that”
“I’ve already clearly explained”
“I’m not going to repeat myself”
“It’s not my fault you can’t read and comprehend”
“You’re trying to put words in my mouth”
“You’re strawmanning me”
. . .
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Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:44 PM   #720
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We're one step from him demanding we stop the discussion while he creates a roadmap.
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