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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:04 AM   #761
psionl0
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, no, not really. The crank deity you propose created everything and promptly vanished without trace.
If you told the truth about what I say then you wouldn't be able to argue against it.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:06 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you told the truth about what I say then you wouldn't be able to argue against it.
You say that about every. Single. Poster. Apparently no one can understand what it is you're saying but the fault isn't yours.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:52 AM   #763
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You say that about every. Single. Poster. Apparently no one can understand what it is you're saying but the fault isn't yours.
It's no surprise. You all read each others' posts. Even when I give you the exact words I used or refer you to a post of mine, you still prefer to believe what somebody else says I say.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 10:05 AM   #764
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's no surprise. You all read each others' posts. Even when I give you the exact words I used or refer you to a post of mine, you still prefer to believe what somebody else says I say.
THEN JUST CLARIFY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING JABBA 2.0
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Old 3rd February 2020, 12:16 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, no, not really. The crank deity you propose created everything and promptly vanished without trace. That is not remotely close to any version of the "Abrahamic God".

I have no idea why you think it might be.

As far as I can see, you are proposing some ethereal deity that lives in the disproven aether on the basis that nobody can prove you wrong.

I could be mistaken, of course, but that is how you presented yourself and your notion while carefully maintaining a modicum of plausible deniability.

So let us cut to the chase. Do you accept the existence of a deity? No question about whatever attributes he/she/it/housecat may or may not have. Just the simple existence of such an entity.

Do you think you can honestly answer that? Please do try.
Trying to get a straight answer out of PSION is like wrestling a greased pig.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 12:23 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you told the truth about what I say then you wouldn't be able to argue against it.
Go ahead. You only chucked that crap to avoid doing so. I have no interest in such dishonesty. If you think your "deity" can stand up to scrutiny, why is it that you are blatantly ashamed of it to the extent that you will avoid even stating what he/her/it/housecat actually is? Either you are making it up out of whole cloth, or at some level, you know you cannot defend your wild claims.

Bring it. You know you will fail. Is fear your motivation?
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Old 3rd February 2020, 12:26 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
THEN JUST CLARIFY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING JABBA 2.0
Yup. Jabba engaged in the very same dance. Somehow, Psion seems to think this is our first rodeo.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 01:37 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Who or what are you calling silly?

I am certainly not calling you silly.

What you posted I saw as a deliberate exaggeration of the absurd or silly to illustrate how far one can go with this nonsense.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:39 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
If you think your "deity" can stand up to scrutiny, why is it that you are blatantly ashamed of it to the extent that you will avoid even stating what he/her/it/housecat actually is?
See the sort of crap I have to deal with?

I NEVER invented a "pgod". That was Darat's strawman that was invented to avoid dealing with the simple "nobody knows the answers". Even a simple idea that a god can avoid detection has to be shouted over with some nonsense about my "pgod" disappearing forever.

You are all so dishonest.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:53 PM   #770
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:13 PM   #771
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
... Even a simple idea that a god can avoid detection ...
Most 'sophisticated' ideas re God, that is by serious theologians, would say that 'God is not a thing, God is not a being. God is not a member of all possible things, nor a member of all possible beings. Nor is God contigent upon any thing nor contigent on any being. So it's logical to suggest God can not be detected, nor that there is evidence of God. God is that which makes evidence and detection possible.
The downside is that God can not be spoken of, nor spoken to.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:29 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I am certainly not calling you silly.
Well if/when I do talk silly I hope you'd be one of the first to let me know I am .

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
What you posted I saw as a deliberate exaggeration of the absurd or silly to illustrate how far one can go with this nonsense.
The point I was attempting to make was that . . .
“It’s true that an absurd/magical/invisible, paranormal dragon is logically possible”
is equally as silly as claiming . . .
“It’s true that an absurd/magical/invisible, paranormal god is logically possible”.

Which isn’t directly related to the “it is possible” fallacy I was debating with Arth.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:30 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
...the only soldier in the parade who is marching in step.
That makes sense only if what I actually posted doesn't matter.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:34 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
Most 'sophisticated' ideas re God, that is by serious theologians, would say that 'God is not a thing, God is not a being. God is not a member of all possible things, nor a member of all possible beings. Nor is God contigent upon any thing nor contigent on any being. So it's logical to suggest God can not be detected, nor that there is evidence of God. God is that which makes evidence and detection possible.
The downside is that God can not be spoken of, nor spoken to.
A god that is no different than no god at all. Yet millions still believe in (some even sacrifice their lives for) that "no god at all" .

But not evidence and detection of that god for some strange reason.

Science is god's way of proving he/it doesn't exist.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:40 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That was Darat's strawman that was invented to avoid dealing with the simple "nobody knows the answers".
Given you missed or ignored my earlier polite request for clarification . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Please remind me/us (for clarity). What's the question "there are no answers" to, and "we don't have any answers" to?
Am I correct in assuming "The question" is "Does a god or gods actually exist?"?
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:51 PM   #776
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That makes sense only if what I actually posted doesn't matter.
If what you posted really matters, don't you think it also matters that what you posted is clearly understood by others? If everyone you're trying to communicate your important message to is saying "We don't understand your message, please clarify", why don't you simply clarify? Seems your ego matters to you more than your message.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:31 PM   #777
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Given you missed or ignored my earlier polite request for clarification . . .

Am I correct in assuming "The question" is "Does a god or gods actually exist?"?
I have lost count of the number of times I have "clarified" my point: If we don't know where the universe came from or how it came into existence then how can we state that no intelligence was involved? An Abrahamic God who chooses whether to make himself known or not is just one possible hypothesis.

Now let's see if you can avoid morphing that into some BS about a disappearing "pgod".
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:01 AM   #778
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Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
Most 'sophisticated' ideas re God, that is by serious theologians, would say that 'God is not a thing, God is not a being. God is not a member of all possible things, nor a member of all possible beings. Nor is God contigent upon any thing nor contigent on any being. So it's logical to suggest God can not be detected, nor that there is evidence of God. God is that which makes evidence and detection possible.

The downside is that God can not be spoken of, nor spoken to.
Can you point to such theologians?
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:16 AM   #779
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have lost count of the number of times I have "clarified" my point: If we don't know where the universe came from or how it came into existence then how can we state that no intelligence was involved? An Abrahamic God who chooses whether to make himself known or not is just one possible hypothesis.

Now let's see if you can avoid morphing that into some BS about a disappearing "pgod".
Thanks, that makes communication easier and I don’t imagine writing it was too difficult for you.

I don’t accept that’s totally “your point” however and suspect it comes with a typical theistic “there is a god” creed (see what I did there?)

"Your point" makes a lot of assumptions. We don't know the universe came from anywhere other than an eternal past. And we don't know that it's not eternal and never "came into existence".

Before you can offer any intelligent god universe creator as a “possible hypothesis” you have to know such a god actually exists. Do you claim you know this? If such a god doesn’t in fact exist then it’s factually an “impossible hypothesis”.

Would you claim an intelligent, Universe creating, seven legged, three winged, fire breathing, five headed, invisible, magical dragon is an equally “possible hypothesis” as a god?
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:26 AM   #780
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Would you claim an intelligent, Universe creating, seven legged, three winged, fire breathing, five headed, invisible, magical dragon is an equally “possible hypothesis” as a god?
As I said way back, If we don't know if an intelligent being is behind the universe then it doesn't make sense to talk about the nature of the being that we don't know exists.

The only thing we know for sure is that you just made up this creature. Whether the concept of an Abrahamic God (the spearhead of the major monotheistic religions) is equally as made up or the result of some divine revelation is just as unknown. Then again, it could be a different god or set of gods altogether. That's what "don't know" means.
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Old 4th February 2020, 12:58 AM   #781
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
As I said way back, If we don't know if an intelligent being is behind the universe then it doesn't make sense to talk about the nature of the being that we don't know exists.
Yet you think it makes sense to talk about the intelligence and universe creating nature of the being that you don't even know exists.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The only thing we know for sure is that you just made up this creature. Whether the concept of an Abrahamic God (the spearhead of the major monotheistic religions) is equally as made up or the result of some divine revelation is just as unknown. Then again, it could be a different god or set of gods altogether. That's what "don't know" means.
We also know for sure gods have been equally made up by other humans. Being made up five minutes ago or thousands of years ago doesn't make one any more or less made up than the other.

Are you defining my dragon as a god?

If your point really is "We don't know" why do you assume and claim more than that?
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Old 4th February 2020, 01:39 AM   #782
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
If your point really is "We don't know" why do you assume and claim more than that?
See what I mean? Straight away you have to add something to my post so that you can argue against me.
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Old 4th February 2020, 02:31 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
As I said way back, If we don't know if an intelligent being is behind the universe then it doesn't make sense to talk about the nature of the being that we don't know exists.



The only thing we know for sure is that you just made up this creature. Whether the concept of an Abrahamic God (the spearhead of the major monotheistic religions) is equally as made up or the result of some divine revelation is just as unknown. Then again, it could be a different god or set of gods altogether. That's what "don't know" means.
Again you seem unaware as to what the Abrahamic gods are claimed to be. Some are creators of everything, some are not, however one thing they all do have in common is we can know they do not exist as their claimed characteristics, descriptions and actions are known to be false.

If you wish to posit your own version of a god, one that has not been claimed by religions to exist we may or may not be able to say whether it exists or not. However I am still left with the question of why you want to use the label "god" for your "entity" when it is not a god in the sense religions use.
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Old 4th February 2020, 03:16 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Some are creators of everything, some are not, however one thing they all do have in common is we can know they do not exist as their claimed characteristics, descriptions and actions are known to be false.
Stop being silly!

You would have to assume that an Abrahamic God exists before you can argue about which claimed characteristics are true and which are false.
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Old 4th February 2020, 05:35 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's no surprise. You all read each others' posts.
Gee, reading posts on a discussion forum. What other devious tricks will these group thinkers dream up next?

Are you so utterly incapable of accepting that you may bear some responsibility for the confusion? How about you state your meaning plainly, rather than complain than everybody misunderstands you and therefore must be in cahoots?
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Old 4th February 2020, 05:39 AM   #786
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are all so dishonest.
Stop projecting.

Quote:
If we don't know where the universe came from or how it came into existence then how can we state that no intelligence was involved?
EVERYBODY understands that this is your point. You know, the one you keep claiming we dishonestly don't understand?

The problem is that this has been addressed numerous times in this thread and others. We can say "not(X)" when no evidence for X has surfaced that should be expected, especially when X contradicts what we know or is entirely redundant.
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Old 4th February 2020, 06:06 AM   #787
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I'm not trying to be a dick when I say this, but as a bystander to this whole thread, I've read through 16 pages and I haven't a clue what Psion is even trying to argue for (or against, for that matter). This is a strange thread indeed.
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Old 4th February 2020, 07:40 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Stop being silly!



You would have to assume that an Abrahamic God exists before you can argue about which claimed characteristics are true and which are false.
No we do not.

We can simply look at the description and claims made by the religions. If the facts show that those claims are wrong then we know their god or gods do not exist.

ETA: The example I always use is Zeus, the reason I use that god is because it is unlikely to be one that other participants in the discussion will claim exists and also it is a god that most will accept some people at some time did believe existed.

Now Zeus has some very well defined characteristics. One of those is that he lives in a palace on Mt Olympus, and according to the descriptions the palace is visible to humans and accessible by humans.

We now have photos that cover the entire mountain and there is no such palace.

We can therefore with absolute certainty state that Zeus does not exist.

We can do the same for all the Abrahamic gods, whether universal creators or not. Indeed there is not a god of any religion I know of that we can't also state with certainty that it does not exist.

That obviously doesn't mean we can say with certainty that some entity not believed in by any religion does not exist. But then as I may have mentioned once or twice why persist in calling this nonrelgion entity "god"?
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Old 4th February 2020, 07:44 AM   #789
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I suppose when someone's entire argument, such as it is, is nothing but a kneejerk screech at the fact that somebody dared to be certain about something it does rather force you into a corner where you can't actually make clear claims.

"bUT hOw dO U KNO 4 cERtain!" as a base philosophy kind of cuts the intellectual legs out from under you.
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Old 4th February 2020, 08:04 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
I'm not trying to be a dick when I say this, but as a bystander to this whole thread, I've read through 16 pages and I haven't a clue what Psion is even trying to argue for (or against, for that matter). This is a strange thread indeed.
His argument has changed as he has gone along, he started with the ontological argument and now is saying ".. but it could exist, so you can't say you know it doesn't..". There are a couple of issues with this and one is the one I do keep mentioning, if such an entity exists it is not a god that any religion claims exists.

The second much more serious problem for his argument is that it is in fact the ontological argument all over again, and so he really has come full circle. It's the ontological argument again because all he is doing is saying that in English he can describe such an entity, and therefore it could exist. However we know with absolute certainty that the English language is a pretty crap model of reality. We create many fanciful things in the English language that simply can't exist, an example is "The Starship passed the light barrier and accelerated to 5 times the speed of light". Just because I can make that up does not mean it could exist.

If psion10 wants to make an argument about his entity he needs to demonstrate that it could exist, to date the best tool we have for describing reality is maths. Somehow I doubt he has the maths to show how his entity could exist.

Before we need to consider whether psion10's nonrelgion god exists or not he needs to demonstrate it could exist.
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Old 4th February 2020, 08:13 AM   #791
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It's the trifecta.

1. God is special because we define him that way, therefore the God question just has to be asked while the Invisible Dragon in my Garage question doesn't.
2. We're only allowed to discuss a hypothetical God that nobody actually believes in, one that is instructed entirely out of variable levels of special pleading.
3. What amounts to a really sloppy version of Pascal's Wager, just with some bad "Probability" swapped out for the "It's better to be wrong and still not burn in hell argument...."

The God question has to be asked because it's God, but can't be answers because it's God, so we better assume God because God, wash, rinse, repeat.
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Old 4th February 2020, 08:31 AM   #792
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Stop being silly!

You would have to assume that an Abrahamic God exists before you can argue about which claimed characteristics are true and which are false.
That's a nutty proposal. Nobody has to wait for anything. The faithful have been making these claims about the properties of whichever deity for thousands of years. You are making claims about an unclear deity right now this minute.

What particular claim should we await? And why are all the claims we have to hand somehow exempt?
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Old 4th February 2020, 08:36 AM   #793
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
His argument has changed as he has gone along, he started with the ontological argument and now is saying ".. but it could exist, so you can't say you know it doesn't..". There are a couple of issues with this and one is the one I do keep mentioning, if such an entity exists it is not a god that any religion claims exists.
Yep, but now we are apparently in epistimology. Solipsism is likely not far behind.
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:01 AM   #794
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
I'm not trying to be a dick when I say this, but as a bystander to this whole thread, I've read through 16 pages and I haven't a clue what Psion is even trying to argue for (or against, for that matter). This is a strange thread indeed.
That just means you're part of the conspiracy.
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:05 AM   #795
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yep, but now we are apparently in epistimology. Solipsism is likely not far behind.
Generally the steps are:

1. I know there's a God.
2. You can't prove there isn't a God.
3. Okay you can prove there isn't a God but you aren't doing it the right way...
4. "I said there's a God? Where? Show me where I said that."
5. A flounce.
6. A return.
7. "Oh so I guess you just have to be right about everything. I guess you atheist are going to drag me off to reeducation camps."
8. Martyrdom
9. "You know Hitler was an atheist.."
10. Epistemology
11. Solipsism

Often with a fringe reset 3-4 times sprinkled in there.
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:05 AM   #796
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I could work with this...


Remote and silent God, I am grateful that you created the universe of which I am, always have been, and always shall be a part.

I am grateful that whatever plan if any you might have for how time should unfold, it's already built irrevocably into the fabric of existence, rather than me having to worry about whether my decisions might conflict with it and prompt your wrath or require your intervention.

I am grateful that you answer not those who would pray your aid in harming or oppressing me, as I seek within my own nature the strength and courage to do what is right and put right what is wrong.

I am grateful that you require no flattering praise nor servile worship, as I seek within your creation itself the insight and compassion to love it and everything it contains.

It's nice to know you won't give me a pony, because, duh, you don't do that kind of thing, and even if you did where would I keep it?
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:08 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I could work with this...


Remote and silent God, I am grateful that you created the universe of which I am, always have been, and always shall be a part.

I am grateful that whatever plan if any you might have for how time should unfold, it's already built irrevocably into the fabric of existence, rather than me having to worry about whether my decisions might conflict with it and prompt your wrath or require your intervention.

I am grateful that you answer not those who would pray your aid in harming or oppressing me, as I seek within my own nature the strength and courage to do what is right and put right what is wrong.

I am grateful that you require no flattering praise nor servile worship, as I seek within your creation itself the insight and compassion to love it and everything it contains.

It's nice to know you won't give me a pony, because, duh, you don't do that kind of thing, and even if you did where would I keep it?
Followed by the response:

"Sorry, why are you talking to me again?"

Dave
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:24 AM   #798
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
I'm not trying to be a dick when I say this, but as a bystander to this whole thread, I've read through 16 pages and I haven't a clue what Psion is even trying to argue for (or against, for that matter). This is a strange thread indeed.
Post #777 is pretty much the totality of my position and has been right from the start. Everything else has been added by posters who want to discredit me by every means possible.
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:35 AM   #799
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Followed by the response:

"Sorry, why are you talking to me again?"

Dave

I thought about removing all the second-person phrases, but it made the wording more awkward. I thought it might be enough to say things like "I am grateful that..." rather than "Thank you for..."

In an Asian language this would come very naturally. For instance "domo arigato" literally translates close to "gratitude exists" while the more typical English translation of "[i] thank you" is only implicit situationally. So that phrase would generate no inherent contradiction in the passage I wrote.

A fair number of modern polytheistic occultists seem pretty comfortable with the idea that their deities may or may not actually have any existence outside of their own ideation. That gives them the flexibility to e.g. pray to fictional characters or even to deific figures they invented themselves. Some of them justify that position with elaborate theories about how ideations actually represent material facts on some other plane (astral or mental, usually) which of course is unfalsifiable because it merely redefines "real on whatever plane" as "fictional as far as consensus reality is concerned." But others just won't argue the question at all, as it makes no practical difference to them.

I know, you didn't expect me to take that reply seriously. But I'm interested in how other peoples' models of the world actually work and how they apply them. Sometimes that leads me into the role of "woo eye for the skeptical guy."

(And vice versa, elsewhere.)
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Old 4th February 2020, 09:37 AM   #800
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It's still the same problem though. "God just hasn't to exist, I mean he just has to so let's backfill a God."

Again a God that literally does nothing and cannot interact with the world in anyway doesn't exist even if he exists.
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