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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 11th January 2019, 03:00 PM   #1321
sts60
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The shady GoFundMe to help fund the wall has folded, but instead of refunding donations as promised, the guy behind it is starting a private Wall effort with the money.

With the (supposedly) about $20 million, they hope to get some private land and build about... two miles of wall.

After all, patriots, the new cars and vacations won’t fund themselves. The Trump supporters who donated to this have already shown they’re happy supporting grifters.
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:17 PM   #1322
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Historians calculate the true cost of Trump's medieval wall:
Quote:
Leif Inge Ree Petersen, a siege-warfare expert at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology, explained to me that to do this right — and Trump wants only the best — we should match the “gold standard” in defensive walls: the Theodosian walls that protected Constantinople from George Soros-funded migrant caravans for 1,000 years, until 1453.

Problem is, this wall had towers every 50 to 80 meters and required at least 20,000 people to defend its six-kilometer perimeter. To scale that up, Trump's border wall will need 51,200 towers and 10.7 million people to perform its various chores: pouring hot oil and dropping rocks on invaders, pushing away their ladders, firing flaming arrows, digging counter-tunnels to intercept invaders' tunnels and pulling ropes to operate the torsion catapults.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...&noredirect=on
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:24 PM   #1323
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Well. We’ll see what happens.

I think the tipping point will come from the top rather than the bottom. The party leaders will turn before the base does. Then again, I have a whole page of My predictions that turned out to be worthless.
I think it's a chicken egg problem.

I believe It will be a little bit of both. Rumor has it most Congressional Republicans despise Trump, but one, see him as a means to an end and two, recognize his support among the base and are afraid the base will turn on them if they turn on Trump.

So some erosion of Trump support is necessary for them to move.
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:32 PM   #1324
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It's like Hadrian's Wall.
I have seen it mentioned with Trump's wall as an example of a failure.
While it was manned and defended it worked. It was a symbolic edge to the Empire, controlled day to day access for purposes of customs and tax control and aided defence against raids.
It was not designed to resist a determined attack by a large invading force but it allowed for a 'holding' action and was a route for rapid re-enforcement of the garrison.

There was a fort or 'milecastle' as they were known with a gate every mile and a 'turret' every 500 yards. In addition 16 the forts were much larger and held a large garrison. 10,000 men manned the wall, a lot of them cavalry. There was also a line of forts to the north of the wall to act as forwards scouting posts and several large forts to the south with large garrisons to re-enforce where needed in case of a large attack.
It is only 73 miles long.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:03 PM   #1325
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
You are assuming that Americans never vote against what is in their best interest and that they never ally themselves with a fast-talking politician who places the interests of other groups ahead of the intests of their own group.

If you have evidence to support that assumption, I will gladly consider it.

I’m not convinced his base will ever scream for his head on a platter.
So true. My late great-uncle (German born/naturalized citizen) went back to Germany in 1957 to visit family. He was dismayed to find his elder brother was still a Nazi at heart and still revered Hitler.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:05 PM   #1326
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I understand not being convinced. But the entire base is really irrelevant. Trump's approval numbers are low to begin with. The question is, can it reach a tipping point?

My next door neighbor is a rabid tea party Republican. He's the Republican precinct chair in my neighborhood and was a huge Trump supporter and he turned against Trump a year ago. Says Trump is the biggest mistake the GOP ever made.

If that guy can turn against Trump, so can others.
I"d love to know what the tipping point was for your neighbor.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:07 PM   #1327
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Trump Retweeted

@WhiteHouse
This afternoon, President Trump hosted a roundtable discussion with State, local, and community leaders, who spoke on how the crisis at the border is negatively impacting communities across our Nation.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1083834391984513024
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:08 PM   #1328
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Trump Retweeted

@Whitehouse
This is common sense. Congress must pass a bill that ends the crisis at our border.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1083845862902677509
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:39 PM   #1329
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
It's possible Trump will wind up the biggest loser in this whole affair. He usually does. The GOP is beginning to show some fraying:
Straws in the wind., I think. McConnel's authority and credibility are being undermined.
Trump is unmoveable : none of the damage he's doing registers with him. Some reports have it that he's convinced he can't win in 2020 without the wall, and polls aren't going to shift him from that. He can just not believe them. It's a convenient conviction because he absolutely wants the Trump Wall, a beautiful wall, the Trump Wall, beautifully built by history's greatest builder, a monument to look upon and despair if you're brown but marvel if you're white.
McConnell's different. He doesn't care about the harm either, to people or country, but he does believe in objective reality as reflected by the polls, and he does care about his own status. Individual Republican senators are even more grounded, in general. And nobody cares at all about Trump. Nobody's dying in the trenches for Trump.
I think Congress will come together and override Trump. There. I've said it.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:56 PM   #1330
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's like Hadrian's Wall.
I have seen it mentioned with Trump's wall as an example of a failure.
While it was manned and defended it worked. It was a symbolic edge to the Empire, controlled day to day access for purposes of customs and tax control and aided defence against raids.
A wall hands the initiative to the raider. That said, the raider always has the initiative. What the wall does is prevent the raider from getting away with their loot, making the practice profitless. Not a lot of people appreciate that.


Where there's a wall, smuggling and the suborning of public officials is the game to get into. Better all round, because far less damage is done to the economy.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:05 PM   #1331
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
A wall hands the initiative to the raider. That said, the raider always has the initiative. What the wall does is prevent the raider from getting away with their loot, making the practice profitless. Not a lot of people appreciate that.

Where there's a wall, smuggling and the suborning of public officials is the game to get into. Better all round, because far less damage is done to the economy.
The wall hands the initiative in the case of Hadrian's to the defending garrison. It gave a raised, protected observation platforms, a solid, all weather patrol rout and garrisons spaced across the frontier allowing rapid forward re-enforcement and concentration of forces.
It also deterred small, 'casual' raiding and controlled legitimate goods allowing tax to be levied.
It was though reliant on a large garrison and sophisticated support and logistics. It wasn't cheap which is why as the Empire declined it was abandoned.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 11th January 2019 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:06 PM   #1332
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trump tweets

Drug prices declined in 2018, the first time in nearly half a century. During the first 19 months of my Administration, Americans saved $26 Billion on prescription drugs. Our policies to get cheaper generic drugs to market are working!
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:07 PM   #1333
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Trump Tweets

@CNN called a San Diego news station (@KUSINews) for negative reports on the Wall. When the station said that Walls work, CNN no longer had interest. #FakeNews

https://twitter.com/i/status/1083868608919420930
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:08 PM   #1334
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Historians calculate the true cost of Trump's medieval wall
Who'd know from Theodosius if not for his wall? The true value of the Trump Wall is that it seals His place in history, and by extension the US's place in history.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:16 PM   #1335
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Retweeted

@Whitehouse
This is common sense. Congress must pass a bill that ends the crisis at our border.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1083845862902677509
Apropos of very little, it seems weird to me that the guy sitting next to Trump has his cowboy hat on. I'm pretty sure that indicates poor manners. Or maybe the rule is you take your hat off to show respect, but then put it back on? Or maybe he is actually signaling disrespect and figures Trump won't know the difference.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:32 PM   #1336
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Quote:
President Trump’s eldest daughter and top aide, Ivanka Trump, is reportedly among a list of names submitted to the Treasury Department as a possible candidate to head the World Bank.
Linky.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:33 PM   #1337
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
trump tweets

Drug prices declined in 2018, the first time in nearly half a century. During the first 19 months of my Administration, Americans saved $26 Billion on prescription drugs. Our policies to get cheaper generic drugs to market are working!
I wonder if anyone fact-checked that tweet? This article from September does not support that claim, but it is 4 months old and it tracks only brand-name drugs.

I did hear that heroin is cheaper these days.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:44 PM   #1338
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Trump backs away from declaring national emergency to fund border wall

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-wall-shutdown

Ha!
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:47 PM   #1339
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Apropos of very little, it seems weird to me that the guy sitting next to Trump has his cowboy hat on. I'm pretty sure that indicates poor manners. Or maybe the rule is you take your hat off to show respect, but then put it back on? Or maybe he is actually signaling disrespect and figures Trump won't know the difference.
Along a similar line of apropos, Trump's rant against NFL players not respecting the national anthem overshadowed the fact that displaying the flag horizontally (like the mammoth flags on NFL fields) actually has "flag rules" against it.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:04 PM   #1340
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The wall hands the initiative in the case of Hadrian's to the defending garrison. It gave a raised, protected observation platforms, a solid, all weather patrol rout and garrisons spaced across the frontier allowing rapid forward re-enforcement and concentration of forces.
It also deterred small, 'casual' raiding and controlled legitimate goods allowing tax to be levied.
More important than their observation was the chatter they picked up from people passing south and their own agents further north. The wall had a hinterland on both sides, it wasn't a rampart from which Roman soldiers looked out on an alien landscape. The tax-gathering function is why I referred to smuggling as the thinking-man's game, not casual raiding, which can only stir up unwanted attention. The hinterland largely polices itself, and casual raiding is a serious economic burden.

Quote:
It was though reliant on a large garrison and sophisticated support and logistics. It wasn't cheap which is why as the Empire declined it was abandoned.
It wasn't free : it was cost-effective, in that the economic benefit of the wall was greater than the cost. The problem was in transferring the economic benefit to the cost of the wall. That requires government, bureaucracy and, hooror of horrors, taxes. Those are what declined as the Empire decayed.

Od course, none of this has anything to do with the Trump Wall, a beautiful wall, yadda-yadda. That is meant to be a rampart from which US Americans look out onto an alien and threatening landscape, a defining line with no hinterlands. The righteous one side, the unrighteous the other.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:05 PM   #1341
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You build walls when you want to keep people on the other side, it's as simple as that, really.
In this case the "people" they are trying to keep out are figments of Trump voters xenophobic and racist imagination. Very few people would be kept out by building "the wall" and it most certainly would not reduce smuggling of narcotics or stop any terrorists from coming in.

If Trump wants to deter illegal immigration he should focus on stuff like mandating that employers are obligated to check their workers residency status. Of course that would severely hurt many businesses, especially those in Texas or New Mexico which are extremely important politically. We can't have government regulations upsetting corporations bottom lines now can we?
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:08 PM   #1342
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The best people!
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:19 PM   #1343
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Quote:
KUSI reported:

We believe CNN declined a report from KUSI because we informed them that most Border Patrol Agents we have spoken to told us the barrier does in fact work.
They never says *why* they believe CNN turned them down due to positive local press on the wall. CNN said it's routine to line up sources and then not use them during a particular news cycle.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:20 PM   #1344
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In a sense, it worked, because the Germans decided that it would be better not to try to breach it. And I don't think it's because of Trump that the Russians are building a fence at the Crimea-Ukraine border (plus Afghanistan-Pakistan, plus Israel-West Bank, plus the Great Wall of China, plus Mexico-US with Democratic approval, and probably many many other examples throughout history). You build walls when you want to keep people on the other side, it's as simple as that, really. And, unless you are a complete idiot (which you are not), you fully expect it won't be 100% effective.
It's not that simple. Except for simpletons.

The Maginot Line and the Hitler's vaunted Atlantic Wall were both over-run in a day. A DAY. They were outrageously expensive to build and man. (Don't forget you have to do that too.) And in 24 hours all that money and effort was futile. You can waste 100 billion dollars on a 2000 mile wall and people will simply find a way around it or under it or over it.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:24 PM   #1345
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Of course that would severely hurt many businesses, especially those in Texas or New Mexico which are extremely important politically.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say New Mexico is important politically.

I've had to prove to at least half a dozen employers that I'm eligible to work in the U.S., but that's because my state passed an E-Verify law. Other states have actively fought such measures - it's why Republicans could not pass an immigration bill when they had the House. Farm states were against requiring employers to verify eligibility to work status.

ETA: Actually I am not sure why the employers needed proof, since they were using E-Verify anyway.

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Old 11th January 2019, 06:31 PM   #1346
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

Humanitarian Crisis at our Southern Border. I just got back and it is a far worse situation than almost anyone would understand, an invasion! I have been there numerous times - The Democrats, Cryin’ Chuck and Nancy don’t know how bad and dangerous it is for our ENTIRE COUNTRY....

...The Steel Barrier, or Wall, should have been built by previous administrations long ago. They never got it done - I will. Without it, our Country cannot be safe. Criminals, Gangs, Human Traffickers, Drugs & so much other big trouble can easily pour in. It can be stopped cold!
Poor Donnie! They sent him into a blue district to see the horrific nightmare of the border crisis and then his advance people didn't set up enough dog-and-pony activities for the news media, so they go wandering and interviewing people who all say that they live in a very safe area. Quick! Cut back to the briefing by the Border folks, and the nice lady shows Donnie a picture of a tunnel found half a mile from where they are currently sitting... a tunnel UNDER A WALL.

With his penchant for firing people he blames afterwards for debacles of his own creation, he may order his "advisors" drawn and quartered for this past week. He made a speech he didn't want to make, reading words he would've preferred not to, then made a self-destructive trip to the border... again, a trip he was purportedly against. All under the recommendation of his crackerjack team of advisors.

What's up? Is he so totally bereft of ammo that in order to make the appearance of fighting the good fight for the troglodytes, he's just trying anything, even stuff his vaunted instincts tell him won't work, just to keep the media busy? He seems to wake up every morning and get his team together early (11 a.m.) and decide whether to shoot himself in the left foot or the right.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:37 PM   #1347
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think it's a chicken egg problem.

I believe It will be a little bit of both. Rumor has it most Congressional Republicans despise Trump, but one, see him as a means to an end and two, recognize his support among the base and are afraid the base will turn on them if they turn on Trump.

So some erosion of Trump support is necessary for them to move.
Agreed.

The Congressfolk know if they condemn in in ones and twos, they will be targeted and suffer. A guy with a revolver can hold off fifty guys. But if you can get 20 or 30 guys to rush him, then the group can win.

I want the rational GOP folks to approach their elected officials and say “both history and your grandchildren will ask ‘where were you when Trump was lying to troops in a war zone?’ “
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:41 PM   #1348
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You can waste 100 billion dollars on a 2000 mile wall and people will simply find a way around it or under it or over it.
And if the wall is not manned: through it. Elaborate tools are not needed to defeat tall steel slats.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:42 PM   #1349
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I wonder how hard it would be to convince President DJT to publicly suggest minefields near the wall?
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:56 PM   #1350
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
And if the wall is not manned: through it. Elaborate tools are not needed to defeat tall steel slats.
EXACTLY. I could cut through that steel wall with $100 worth of tools from Harbor Freight. A cheap oxyacetlyne torch would make easy work of it in under 15 minutes.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:04 PM   #1351
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Whether it's relevant or not, I was correcting a misstatement. Ladewig said Mueller was an employee of the legislative branch, but this isn't so, near as I can figger. Trump may well have the authority to fire him (or to order Rosenstein or the acting head to do so), though such an act may also be an obstruction of justice.
Whose budget covers Mueller's salary? That would be the best indication of which branch he is in.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:19 PM   #1352
Captain_Swoop
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
More important than their observation was the chatter they picked up from people passing south and their own agents further north. The wall had a hinterland on both sides, it wasn't a rampart from which Roman soldiers looked out on an alien landscape. The tax-gathering function is why I referred to smuggling as the thinking-man's game, not casual raiding, which can only stir up unwanted attention. The hinterland largely polices itself, and casual raiding is a serious economic burden.

It wasn't free : it was cost-effective, in that the economic benefit of the wall was greater than the cost. The problem was in transferring the economic benefit to the cost of the wall. That requires government, bureaucracy and, hooror of horrors, taxes. Those are what declined as the Empire decayed.

Od course, none of this has anything to do with the Trump Wall, a beautiful wall, yadda-yadda. That is meant to be a rampart from which US Americans look out onto an alien and threatening landscape, a defining line with no hinterlands. The righteous one side, the unrighteous the other.
It does have to do with Trump's wall though.
Just putting up the wall achieves nothing. It is an ongoing, expensive commitment that needs to be integrated. It's not an end in itself.
I don't think Trump appreciates this.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:21 PM   #1353
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Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
Trump backs away from declaring national emergency to fund border wall

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-wall-shutdown

Ha!
Pres. Trump calls declaring a national emergency the "easy way out." "Congress should do this, this is too simple. It's too basic... if they can't do it, I will declare a national emergency." (link: https://abcn.ws/2Fsd65w)
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:30 PM   #1354
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is always someone who thinks it isn't a national emergency and those actions shouldn't be taken. There cannot exist an emergency unmoored from a political agenda.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:30 PM   #1355
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
In order to make amends, step one is to subject yourself to one full hour of uninterrupted Trump speeches in a locked room.
That would cause irreparable brain damage.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:51 PM   #1356
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What a brilliant idea! A fence with hi-tech sensors! Who would have thought! Why don't the US use THAT for their "wall"!!! Instead of the frightfully expensive, totally impractical and utterly useless 30-foot (10-metre) high concrete blocks that Trump is stamping his tiny feet about and making life hell for everyone.

Maybe someone could tell the Dems too. They must surely see sense...

Oh wait. They already said that.
Thank you, Norman, this was a very interesting link and article from USA Today (another URL, which might work better for some people, is: https://amp.usatoday.com/story/news/...ns/2512363002/ ).
I quote:
Quote:
Legislation the Democratic-led House passed Jan. 3, with five Republicans voting in favor, would have devoted $1.3 billion for fencing and more for border security. The bill would have funded the Department of Homeland Security at current spending levels through Feb. 8 – but it would include no funding for Trump's border wall, which is at the heart of the current government shutdown.

“On Day One of the new Congress, the House passed bipartisan legislation that honors our responsibility to protect the American people with funding for smart, effective border security solutions – just not the President’s wasteful and ineffective wall," House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said in a joint statement Monday night.

Included in the House bill is:

More than $1.3 billion for new fencing in the Rio Grande Valley and funding to replace secondary fencing in San Diego and other existing pedestrian fencing.

$366.5 million for border security technology.

• $7.7 million to hire 328 additional U.S. Customs and Border Protection customs officers.

• $224.6 million for "non-intrusive Inspection equipment" at ports of entry.

• $7.08 billion for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
So, it seems that this January 3 House bill which was apparently vetoed by Trump did include $1.3 billion for fences and $366.5 million for border security technology. About the veto, see CNBC: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/04/hous...all-money.html :
Quote:
House passes bill to end US government shutdown without border wall money
JAN 3 2019
... In an official statement of policy Thursday, the White House said Trump’s advisors would recommend that the president veto the Democratic proposals. The administration called for at least $5 billion for the wall.
On the other hand, a few days before (on Christmas day), Trump had said:
Quote:
I can’t tell you when the government’s going to be open. I can tell you it’s not going to be open until we have a wall or fence, whatever they’d like to call it. "I’ll call it whatever they want but it’s all the same thing," he said at the White House after offering holiday greetings to U.S. troops stationed around the country and the world.
(http://time.com/5488195/donald-trump...as-shutdown/?#. Warning: you can view and hear your best friend on this webpage)
So, here we have a man (Trump) who, on Dec 25, says "a fence is ok", but vetoes it a few days later!! This is really very strange.
Although I don't know all details of Washington politics, I have the impression that Pelosi (78 years old) didn't do a good job trying to explain and "sell" the House bill when she met Trump (72 years old) at the White House on January 9: https://www.infowars.com/trump-rips-...-said-bye-bye/ . After that meeting, Trump tweeted:
Quote:
Just left a meeting with Chuck and Nancy, a total waste of time. I asked what is going to happen in 30 days if I quickly open things up, are you going to approve Border Security which includes a Wall or Steel Barrier? Nancy said, NO. I said bye-bye, nothing else works!
She should have heavily emphasized that the January 3 House bill did include money for a physical barrier demanded by Trump (and possibly reminded Trump of what he himself said on Christmas day about fence ok), but I suspect she did not.

Last edited by Michel H; 11th January 2019 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:11 PM   #1357
SezMe
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

We lose 300 Americans a week, 90% of which comes through the Southern Border. These numbers will be DRASTICALLY REDUCED if we have a Wall!
Could someone translate this into English, please. What the hell is he yammering about?
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:11 PM   #1358
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Although I don't know all details of Washington politics, I have the impression that Pelosi (78 years old) didn't do a good job trying to explain and "sell" the House bill when she met Trump (72 years old) at the White House on January 9: https://www.infowars.com/trump-rips-...-said-bye-bye/ .
Perhaps you would have a better impression of reality if you stopped reading the pile of crap known as Infowars.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:20 PM   #1359
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Well before 2019, Trump was not even listening to Pelosi or even his own advisers. He has been orbiting the planet Pluto in a Barbie trailer, as far as anyone can tell.

Trump has been insisting on a wall all through his candidacy and office - the last three years. When he goes out spruiking, it's his battle-cry: BUILD THAT WALL! He is absolutely useless as a negotiator and has a very poor grasp of English and logic (and sanity). He is also a crap building manager. He just licenses his brand, not his expertise. So his "wall" is simply "anything someone else builds". He doesn't know concrete from mash potato. Really. So any semantics over what this mythical wall will be made of or look like is pointless. Pelosi knows that, Schumer knows that. They know they are dealing with an unhinged dumbass.

Incidentally, 3-Jan was BEFORE the Dems took control of the House. So Pelosi and Schumer could not have given him anything. But the GOP who WERE still in control for the two years leading up to then could have easily. Perhaps you could tell us why they didn't.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:37 PM   #1360
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Incidentally, 3-Jan was BEFORE the Dems took control of the House. So Pelosi and Schumer could not have given him anything.
No, that's not true.
Quote:
The One Hundred Sixteenth United States Congress is the current meeting of the legislative branch of the Federal government of the United States, composed of the United States Senate and the United States House of Representatives, meeting in Washington, D.C., from January 3, 2019, to January 3, 2021.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/116th_...tates_Congress )
The January 3 House bill was passed on Day One of the new Congress, as explained in your own link:
https://phxux.guampdn.com/story/news...ns/2512363002/.
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