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Tags "The Closer" , Dave Chappelle , tv shows

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Old 15th October 2021, 11:41 AM   #1
sir drinks-a-lot
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Doing standup while black: Dave Chappelle's new special

Has anyone else seen Dave Chapelle's new standup special The Closer? As many of you probably have heard, he caused a kerfuffle by making several jokes about transgenders in the special. He was attacked by twitter, members of the media, and now some Netflix employees are threatening a walkout.

I saw the special recently, and he joked about asians, white people, women, and other groups as much as he did about transgender; but it seems to be the hot button issue these days. I think the outrage has less to do with the contents of the show, and much more to do with the fact that he decided to joke about trans issues at all.

Has anyone else seen it? What did you think?
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Old 15th October 2021, 12:53 PM   #2
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Haven't seen this one, but Chappelle in general hits all the isms pretty squarely sooner or later in his skits. He's getting blasted for just one in particular now? Was it over the top compared to his usual routine?
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Old 15th October 2021, 01:12 PM   #3
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Rotten Tomatoes scores: critics 43%, audience 96%

It looks like he's reaching and entertaining his audience, and the critics are basing their opinions on class politics rather than craft, as usual.
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Old 15th October 2021, 01:16 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Haven't seen this one, but Chappelle in general hits all the isms pretty squarely sooner or later in his skits. He's getting blasted for just one in particular now? Was it over the top compared to his usual routine?
Not at all, imo. Especially the parts about transgender issues. The whole second half turns into more of a story/lecture/spoken word performance instead of joke telling. I'm wondering if this is what is referred to by the title The Closer, as in the story being the closer to his act. I'm hesitant to say too much more out of fear of spoilers.

The fact that he said so little that really seemed offensive in regards to trans issues and is getting so much blowback from the various mobs is precisely what I find so interesting. Although I can't say I wouldn't have expected it. Testing the boundaries with trans is one of the worst versions of wrongspeak today.
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Old 15th October 2021, 05:45 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Rotten Tomatoes scores: critics 43%, audience 96%
This will henceforth be known as the Chappelle Ratio.

On point: https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/w...dave-chappelle
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Old 15th October 2021, 08:11 PM   #6
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Dave Chappelle says the N-word, so he should be canceled.

Just kidding. I love Dave Chappelle. I hope he continues to dig irreverently at human foibles for years to come.
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Old 16th October 2021, 03:36 AM   #7
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I just watched it. Hilarious. He offends pretty much everyone.

He’s a ******* comedian.

Anyway he is laughing all the way to the bank.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:23 AM   #8
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And if anyone who watches the whole show and thinks he’s transphobic is an idiot.
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Old 16th October 2021, 07:13 AM   #9
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Not seen it, but if, as the OP suggests, that he gets more heat for this because he is black and not white, then, well... I can't say I am surprised.
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:01 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Not seen it, but if, as the OP suggests, that he gets more heat for this because he is black and not white, then, well... I can't say I am surprised.
Oh, I totally didn't mean to suggest that. I can see how it might appear that way, but I was just riffing on the ISF "while black' theme when choosing the thread title. If anything, I would suspect that Chapelle gets less heat for his trans jokes because he is black.
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:05 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Oh, I totally didn't mean to suggest that. I can see how it might appear that way, but I was just riffing on the ISF "while black' theme when choosing the thread title. If anything, I would suspect that Chapelle gets less heat for his trans jokes because he is black.
Agreed.

But what people are missing I think is that he can make trans jokes (his job) without being transphobic.
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:10 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
But what people are missing I think is that he can make trans jokes (his job) without being transphobic.
Absolutely. On a similar note, I don't think he's racist because of the jokes he made about white people and asians, and I don't think he's a misogynist for the jokes he made about women.
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Old 17th October 2021, 06:12 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This will henceforth be known as the Chappelle Ratio.

On point: https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/w...dave-chappelle

Yeah, a good article. When corporate managers discipline a Black employee for recounting the slurs used against him in the same words, it becomes obvious that their interest is more about asserting their control than about protecting the oppressed. "Wokeism is elitism" is an oversimplification—not always, not entirely—but that's how it usually comes across.
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Old 17th October 2021, 06:45 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Yeah, a good article. When corporate managers discipline a Black employee for recounting the slurs used against him in the same words, it becomes obvious that their interest is more about asserting their control than about protecting the oppressed. "Wokeism is elitism" is an oversimplification—not always, not entirely—but that's how it usually comes across.
I'd like to know what "his first ginger steps back into standup" means - "ginger steps"???
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Old 17th October 2021, 06:58 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'd like to know what "his first ginger steps back into standup" means - "ginger steps"???
Without doubt, a serious, mangled attempt to use, "gingerly".

Should have read;

"as that comedian, gingerly, takes his first steps back into standup"
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Old 17th October 2021, 07:11 AM   #16
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Although if Dave revealed he is actually a ginger, that could be a special in itself.
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Old 17th October 2021, 07:40 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Although if Dave revealed he is actually a ginger, that could be a special in itself.
Maybe Bill Burr could reveal he is actually black and then the two of them could do a back to back double special called Transracial.
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Old 17th October 2021, 09:09 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Without doubt, a serious, mangled attempt to use, "gingerly".

Should have read;

"as that comedian, gingerly, takes his first steps back into standup"
I read it through the first time as taking tentative or caution steps back into standup. But when I consulted a dictionary after seeing Darat's question, I see that only the word "gingerly" appears, not "ginger" with this particular use.
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Old 17th October 2021, 09:53 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I read it through the first time as taking tentative or caution steps back into standup. But when I consulted a dictionary after seeing Darat's question, I see that only the word "gingerly" appears, not "ginger" with this particular use.
We were all there when the word "ginger" became the past tense form of "gingerly".

I'm absolutely ecstaticated to have witnessed this.
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Old 20th October 2021, 01:04 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Oh, I totally didn't mean to suggest that. I can see how it might appear that way, but I was just riffing on the ISF "while black' theme when choosing the thread title. If anything, I would suspect that Chapelle gets less heat for his trans jokes because he is black.
Well, I watched it and part of what he was saying pretty much WAS that other minority groups have blown past black people on their way to getting support and recognition, from gay people to trans people. For example, he points about that it’s barely a crime to shoot a black person dead but your career will be destroyed for some homophobic remarks.

Anyway, it was okay. Quite funny in places and also rather sermonizing in places. As with many comedians who have a “serious point”, there’s a bit of wanting it both ways. They want to have their opinions taken seriously but retreat to the old “I’m only joking! I’’m a comedian!” When people take it seriously in a way they don’t like. You can’t have it both ways.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 20th October 2021, 04:45 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post

Anyway, it was okay. Quite funny in places and also rather sermonizing in places. As with many comedians who have a “serious point”, there’s a bit of wanting it both ways. They want to have their opinions taken seriously but retreat to the old “I’m only joking! I’’m a comedian!” When people take it seriously in a way they don’t like. You can’t have it both ways.
Telling funny jokes is hard, but throwing pep rallies isn't. It's a common arc for aging comedians to go from joke tellers to people hunting for claps rather than laughs. It's never a good sign when some older comedian decided it's their role to give sermons on serious issues rather than tell jokes that are funny, though history has shown it's often very lucrative.

Shame to see Chapelle going this route, he was very funny in the past.

ETA: Sad that success is often what seems to lead to comedians ceasing to be funny.
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Old 20th October 2021, 06:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, I watched it and part of what he was saying pretty much WAS that other minority groups have blown past black people on their way to getting support and recognition, from gay people to trans people. For example, he points about that it’s barely a crime to shoot a black person dead but your career will be destroyed for some homophobic remarks.
Thankfully no one cares about murders of queer black people because they by definition can not possibly exist.
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Old 20th October 2021, 07:17 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Telling funny jokes is hard, but throwing pep rallies isn't. It's a common arc for aging comedians to go from joke tellers to people hunting for claps rather than laughs. It's never a good sign when some older comedian decided it's their role to give sermons on serious issues rather than tell jokes that are funny, though history has shown it's often very lucrative.

Shame to see Chapelle going this route, he was very funny in the past.

ETA: Sad that success is often what seems to lead to comedians ceasing to be funny.
Carlin and Pryor pulled it off, IMO, but not many others. Miss them both in the Trump era.
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Old 20th October 2021, 07:29 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Has anyone else seen Dave Chapelle's new standup special The Closer? As many of you probably have heard, he caused a kerfuffle by making several jokes about transgenders in the special. He was attacked by twitter, members of the media, and now some Netflix employees are threatening a walkout.

I saw the special recently, and he joked about asians, white people, women, and other groups as much as he did about transgender; but it seems to be the hot button issue these days. I think the outrage has less to do with the contents of the show, and much more to do with the fact that he decided to joke about trans issues at all.

Has anyone else seen it? What did you think?
I don't think it was his best set on Netflix, but it was damn good. I think it was the story he told at the end, that caused the most offense, as it painted the trans community, at least the on-line one, as a bully. And since they can't debate that, gotta go after the messenger.

The last 20-30 minutes is powerful and raw and feels so real, so they can't ding him for any of that. But call him a transphobe? Easy, effortless and untrue.
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Old 20th October 2021, 07:34 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Carlin and Pryor pulled it off, IMO, but not many others. Miss them both in the Trump era.
I didn't think Carlin pulled it off. I found most of his later stuff kind of tedious. It sounded like an old man ranting.

I haven't seen Chapelle's show, but I will if I can find the time.
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Old 20th October 2021, 08:35 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Thankfully no one cares about murders of queer black people because they by definition can not possibly exist.
Don't go into a career in comedy whatever you do....
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Old 20th October 2021, 08:45 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, I watched it and part of what he was saying pretty much WAS that other minority groups have blown past black people on their way to getting support and recognition, from gay people to trans people. For example, he points about that it’s barely a crime to shoot a black person dead but your career will be destroyed for some homophobic remarks.
Two points about that; First of all, it wasn't my suggestion, it was Chapelle's. And secondly, he wasn't comparing blacks directly to whites, he was comparing them to member of the LGBT community, and noting how members of the LGBT community have all sorts of extra protections.

Quote:
Anyway, it was okay. Quite funny in places and also rather sermonizing in places. As with many comedians who have a “serious point”, there’s a bit of wanting it both ways. They want to have their opinions taken seriously but retreat to the old “I’m only joking! I’’m a comedian!” When people take it seriously in a way they don’t like. You can’t have it both ways.
Yeah, this is the classic style popularized by Jon Stewart. There's even an expression for it; a Clown nose on, Clown nose off routine.
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Old 20th October 2021, 08:47 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I don't think it was his best set on Netflix, but it was damn good. I think it was the story he told at the end, that caused the most offense, as it painted the trans community, at least the on-line one, as a bully. And since they can't debate that, gotta go after the messenger.
That was only my second time seeing his standup, but I liked it. I'm a bit more familiar with his sketch comedy.

Quote:
The last 20-30 minutes is powerful and raw and feels so real, so they can't ding him for any of that. But call him a transphobe? Easy, effortless and untrue.
I'm wondering if the last 20-30 minutes was the closer.
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:00 AM   #29
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Definitely one of his weaker routines, but honestly didn't think any of his recent work compares to his old work. There are flashes but it's just not as good. It is hard to rate, because I rate him against himself.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
As with many comedians who have a “serious point”, there’s a bit of wanting it both ways. They want to have their opinions taken seriously but retreat to the old “I’m only joking! I’’m a comedian!” When people take it seriously in a way they don’t like. You can’t have it both ways.
He had a knack for pulling that off in the past. His routine about Elizabeth Smart, and pulled together with how old is 15 really, is perfect. His current comparisons don't land as well comedically, but they are good food for thought. The backlash against his trans material reinforces his points.
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Old 20th October 2021, 11:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I'm wondering if the last 20-30 minutes was the closer.
I think so. If you look at that last part, as not a part of a comedy set, but him eulogizing his friend, it makes sense.
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Old 20th October 2021, 12:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I didn't think Carlin pulled it off. I found most of his later stuff kind of tedious. It sounded like an old man ranting.
Agreed, but I think we're in the minority.

I think you'll enjoy the new Chapelle. Not many LOL jokes, but a pretty good low burn of good humored speaking.
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Old 20th October 2021, 11:19 PM   #32
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Old 21st October 2021, 01:14 AM   #33
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So I watched about half an hour of Chappelle's show, including the last 20 minutes.


To go deeply into what is so deeply and utterly wrong with the protests against it would really require me to discuss a whole lot of stuff that really belongs over in a thread in social issues and current events.

As for the show in general, it's kind of funny, if you like that sort of thing. I, personally, laughed at some of the jokes, but the constant use of "******" and "bitch" kind of puts me off.
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Old 21st October 2021, 05:53 AM   #34
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The Very Bad Wizards talked about this special on their podcast.

They are big fans of Chappelle so they were inclined to be supportive of him.

That said, I think they also end with the idea that Chappelle is something of a ranting reactionary. They point to the fact that people in their daughter's generation pretty much accept trans people with none of this "Ohh...b...b...but what if the sky is falling!?!?!" They also point out that if we are charitable we can see that Chappelle is frustrated that black people apparently don't seem to have the same acceptance as trans people and gay people before them.

https://www.verybadwizards.com/223

Chappelle could be right about that, but honestly if that is his problem then his target really should not be trans people. And yeah, he had a trans comedian friend and he tells a touching story, but honestly that comes across as a little manipulative. I mean, if a comedia were to walk around telling jokes using the n-word and saying that there used to be good ones (you know, MLK Jr, he was a good one!), and then complained that these days the n-words are really annoying. You know, like those rapper ones, not like the good ones who wore suits etc... and then told a story about one of the good ones who defended the comedian on Twitter then committed suicide, well, I don't think people would give that comedian so much praise.

Anyway, I say that bit not because I want Dave Chappelle cancelled, only that I reserve the right to be a critic.
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Old 21st October 2021, 08:41 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The Very Bad Wizards talked about this special on their podcast.

They are big fans of Chappelle so they were inclined to be supportive of him.

That said, I think they also end with the idea that Chappelle is something of a ranting reactionary. They point to the fact that people in their daughter's generation pretty much accept trans people with none of this "Ohh...b...b...but what if the sky is falling!?!?!" They also point out that if we are charitable we can see that Chappelle is frustrated that black people apparently don't seem to have the same acceptance as trans people and gay people before them.
You would be hard pressed to find someone arguing against black or interracial marriage in the past 15 years in so many words while it is quite popular to be explicitly against gay or trans people. And while trans women especially of color might not be murdered by the police at as much a higher rate than white men, there certainly are issues of their murder.
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Old 21st October 2021, 09:30 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'll bet she's a blast at dinner parties.
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Old 21st October 2021, 09:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To go deeply into what is so deeply and utterly wrong with the protests against it would really require me to discuss a whole lot of stuff that really belongs over in a thread in social issues and current events.
I probably should have created the thread there, since my main point was to discuss the controversy that erupted around the special airing on Netflix.
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Old 21st October 2021, 09:49 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That said, I think they also end with the idea that Chappelle is something of a ranting reactionary. They point to the fact that people in their daughter's generation pretty much accept trans people with none of this "Ohh...b...b...but what if the sky is falling!?!?!"
I think many, if not most, standup performers can be characterized at ranting reactionaries. To a pretty significant degree, that's what standup comedy is. Also, I'd say from watching the special that Mr. Chapelle pretty much accepts trans people. I'm not sure what the sky is falling comment is supposed to reference. Chapelle did make several trans jokes, and also expressed his disbelief at Caitlyn Jenner winning the Woman of the year, but I wouldn't consider that to be 'sky is falling' type rhetoric.



Quote:
he had a trans comedian friend and he tells a touching story, but honestly that comes across as a little manipulative. I mean, if a comedia were to walk around telling jokes using the n-word and saying that there used to be good ones (you know, MLK Jr, he was a good one!), and then complained that these days the n-words are really annoying. You know, like those rapper ones, not like the good ones who wore suits etc... and then told a story about one of the good ones who defended the comedian on Twitter then committed suicide, well, I don't think people would give that comedian so much praise.
Depends on the jokes, I guess. It seems there are those out there that want certain groups to be immune from any jokes whatsoever which seems like a special privilege. Jokes are a tricky business. Much of comedy is made up of making light of the difference between groups and the peculiarities of people - as Darwin would say "endless forms most beautiful". The Simpsons, for example, relied heavily on (gasp) stereotypes.

On the other hand, I've certainly heard jokes that were intended to be cruel and make fun at the expense of others, but I didn't see any of that with Chapelle's performance.
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Old 21st October 2021, 11:02 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I probably should have created the thread there, since my main point was to discuss the controversy that erupted around the special airing on Netflix.
And what a controversy!

Evidently it's literal violence to openly support Chappelle.

https://twitter.com/dannyhellman/sta...02387246260224
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Old 21st October 2021, 03:52 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You would be hard pressed to find someone arguing against black or interracial marriage in the past 15 years in so many words while it is quite popular to be explicitly against gay or trans people. And while trans women especially of color might not be murdered by the police at as much a higher rate than white men, there certainly are issues of their murder.
Oh I completely agree. Trans people have a lot of discrimination to deal with. I think the point they were making on VBW is - and they sound hopeful here - that when those over forty are dead or old trans people will probably be almost universally accepted. That said, there will probably still be racism.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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