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Old 16th October 2021, 08:39 AM   #41
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Well, if he liked dogs that makes all the difference.
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Old 16th October 2021, 09:47 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I really must protest. So the guy was a Brexiteer, a Roman Catholic who voted against abortion and same-sex marriage as well as being patriotic. One might not agree with him but that doesn't make him a 'slimy weasal'. The guy was just doing his job. As I recall, MP Norman Tebbit was hated for his Tory views yet by all accounts, his constituents thought he was great. He went out of his way to help them with their housing problems and the usual struggles people go through.

This is a really shocking murder and I don't think this is the time to excoriate the guy because of political differences. He liked dogs and voted against fox-hunting, so he was not all bad.
He wasn't so keen on gay people, the homeless, the environment, the unemployed, the disabled and other disadvantaged people.
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Old 16th October 2021, 10:53 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I really must protest. So the guy was a Brexiteer, a Roman Catholic who voted against abortion and same-sex marriage as well as being patriotic. One might not agree with him but that doesn't make him a 'slimy weasal'. The guy was just doing his job. As I recall, MP Norman Tebbit was hated for his Tory views yet by all accounts, his constituents thought he was great. He went out of his way to help them with their housing problems and the usual struggles people go through.

This is a really shocking murder and I don't think this is the time to excoriate the guy because of political differences. He liked dogs and voted against fox-hunting, so he was not all bad.

At the risk of Godwinning the thread, so did Hitler.

His views on safe and legal access to abortion, rights for homosexuals and same-sex couples, the European Union, climate change and the environment, the wrongly imprisoned, the disabled and the socially disadvantaged do not stand up to such ethical scrutiny.
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:02 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
He wasn't so keen on gay people, the homeless, the environment, the unemployed, the disabled and other disadvantaged people.
It is entirely possible to feel sorry about the death but not mourn for the victim.
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Old 16th October 2021, 12:53 PM   #45
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How many more posts before people really start dancing on his grave? We're almost there...
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Old 16th October 2021, 01:14 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
How many more posts before people really start dancing on his grave? We're almost there...
I think there's a certain level of pushback against the 'oh, wasn't he a lovely man' rhetoric which, after examination of his voting record, proves to be not actually true.

What happened was horric, should not have happened and my sympathies go out to his friends and family, but I don't think we should all be required to join in the lavishment of praise on a man who wasn't at all lovely.
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Old 16th October 2021, 07:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think there's a certain level of pushback against the 'oh, wasn't he a lovely man' rhetoric which, after examination of his voting record, proves to be not actually true.

What happened was horric, should not have happened and my sympathies go out to his friends and family, but I don't think we should all be required to join in the lavishment of praise on a man who wasn't at all lovely.
If you had a more idiosyncratic view of lovely, would you still express it? Like if you thought it was bad character to have his haircut, would you point out he has an immoral haircut?

(trying to understand where the cutoff is, because voting record is not an universal marker of character).
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:53 PM   #48
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Maybe not a marker of character, but it reflects the direction he exerted his power on the nation and its people. Real people were affected by the outcome of his votings, which doesn't happen with haircuts.
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Old 17th October 2021, 12:15 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If you had a more idiosyncratic view of lovely, would you still express it? Like if you thought it was bad character to have his haircut, would you point out he has an immoral haircut?

The one he had back in the 80s was pretty bad, now you come to mention it.
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Old 17th October 2021, 01:27 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Maybe not a marker of character, but it reflects the direction he exerted his power on the nation and its people. Real people were affected by the outcome of his votings, which doesn't happen with haircuts.

As I said in an earlier post, a discussion of this man's political views is irrelevant in the current context*. I'd argue that it's pretty distasteful too. I guess some people here just can't help themselves.


* It's entirely reasonable for people to hold - and voice - an opinion on Amess's politics. But here and now is not the place to do so. I'd have thought that this was both obvious and moral.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:11 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Maybe not a marker of character, but it reflects the direction he exerted his power on the nation and its people. Real people were affected by the outcome of his votings, which doesn't happen with haircuts.
Think of your 'favourite' MP past or present and then look at their voting record. You'll find nine times out of ten they voted in line with the government or the party whip, in pain of being expelled from the party if they did not. Yes, even such 'radicals' as Jeremy Corbyn, Keir Starmer, Diane Abbott et al voted in favour of controversial issues.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:50 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
As I said in an earlier post, a discussion of this man's political views is irrelevant in the current context*. I'd argue that it's pretty distasteful too. I guess some people here just can't help themselves.


* It's entirely reasonable for people to hold - and voice - an opinion on Amess's politics. But here and now is not the place to do so. I'd have thought that this was both obvious and moral.

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I AGREE
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:02 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
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I AGREE
Much of their satire has stood the test of time. Better than the likes of Python* et all.


*Excluding Life of Brian of course
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:50 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Much of their satire has stood the test of time. Better than the likes of Python* et all.


*Excluding Life of Brian of course
Was Python satire?
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:54 AM   #55
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Dan Hodges, Mail columnists wrote earlier in the week

"Labour MUST kill Vampire Jezza"

Yesterday he wrote

"I don't know why Sir David Amess was killed, but the visceral hatred of Tories at the heart of labour has to end right now"
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Old 17th October 2021, 06:56 AM   #56
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There has been some controversy over the refusal of the police to let a priest administer last rights as that would have meant the priest entering the crime scene. But there is very little information on what happened.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...d-entry-crime/

Was Amess still alive when the priest arrived? If so, was he getting medical treatment at that point?

What was the actual crime scene like? Could a priest be given access without causing much disruption?
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Old 17th October 2021, 08:21 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There has been some controversy over the refusal of the police to let a priest administer last rights as that would have meant the priest entering the crime scene. But there is very little information on what happened.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...d-entry-crime/

Was Amess still alive when the priest arrived? If so, was he getting medical treatment at that point?

What was the actual crime scene like? Could a priest be given access without causing much disruption?
Pretty much a non-story. If he wasn't dead, you don't want another untrained non-medical person interfering, if he was dead then it would have been too late anyway.
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Old 17th October 2021, 08:51 AM   #58
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Making Southend a city would be the "perfect tribute" to Sir David Amess, colleagues said.

Sir David, who represented the Southend West constituency, was stabbed as he held a regular Friday meeting with constituents in Leigh-on-Sea.
He had championed Southend's bid for city status as part of The Queen's Platinum Jubilee celebrations in 2022.

Home Secretary Priti Patel described him as Mr Southend and said his passion for the town warmed hearts.
"When David's name is mentioned going forward he will bring great cheer and smiles," she told The Andrew Marr Show on Sunday.

"He was Mr Southend, he was Mr Essex, he would always put Southend front and centre of his work and that was David through and through.
I think it would be a very fitting tribute to Sir David, particularly as it was something he had campaigned for, for a long time," Conservative councillor for Southend Borough Council James Courtenay said:
I suspect local politicians from across the political divide will actively support it.
I wouldn't be surprised if a number of his Westminster colleagues were to do so as well, given that every time - well it felt like it anyway - he stood up in Parliament, he would ask if Southend could be made a city."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58941729
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Old 17th October 2021, 09:07 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Dan Hodges, Mail columnists wrote earlier in the week

"Labour MUST kill Vampire Jezza"

Yesterday he wrote

"I don't know why Sir David Amess was killed, but the visceral hatred of Tories at the heart of labour has to end right now"
Oh-oh. Wait until Dan Hodges sees what, um, Dan Hodges wrote.
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Old 17th October 2021, 09:16 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Making Southend a city would be the "perfect tribute" to Sir David Amess, colleagues said.

Sir David, who represented the Southend West constituency, was stabbed as he held a regular Friday meeting with constituents in Leigh-on-Sea.
He had championed Southend's bid for city status as part of The Queen's Platinum Jubilee celebrations in 2022.

Home Secretary Priti Patel described him as Mr Southend and said his passion for the town warmed hearts.
"When David's name is mentioned going forward he will bring great cheer and smiles," she told The Andrew Marr Show on Sunday.

"He was Mr Southend, he was Mr Essex, he would always put Southend front and centre of his work and that was David through and through.
I think it would be a very fitting tribute to Sir David, particularly as it was something he had campaigned for, for a long time," Conservative councillor for Southend Borough Council James Courtenay said:
I suspect local politicians from across the political divide will actively support it.
I wouldn't be surprised if a number of his Westminster colleagues were to do so as well, given that every time - well it felt like it anyway - he stood up in Parliament, he would ask if Southend could be made a city."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58941729
What people don't see when they vilify MP's like David Amess as 'Tory scum' is where they are coming from. AIUI Amess was born in Plaistow, traditionally a poor area of East London, and by all accounts, Amess regarded himself as an 'East Ender', despite living in Southend-on Sea, or environs. It is this group of people who fervently worshipped Maggie Thatcher when she enabled them to buy their social housing on a 'Right-to-Buy' scheme, selling up and then moving away to places like Essex, on which Plaistow almost borders. So whilst I might be baffled as to why working class people who struggle to make ends meet would ever vote Tory, I have met Thatcher worshippers from Southend in sufficient numbers to realise that these are working class Tories and proud of it. A slightly different ilk from the David Camerons, Michael Fabricants (net worth £1.2m) and the Boris Johnsons of the world who just see them as the little people.
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Old 17th October 2021, 09:16 AM   #61
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Was he a Cockney?

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 17th October 2021 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 17th October 2021, 09:17 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Was he a Cockney?
Don't start...
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Old 17th October 2021, 09:29 AM   #63
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Jeff Woolnough, catholic priest involved tweeted

@JeffWoolnough
I’ve never spoken to the Mail- Complete fake news I’m afraid and again for the record/ I’m the pp of the RC church on the same road where my friend was murdered - that’s why I was at the scene refusing to speak to the press-patiently waiting and praying the rosary.
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Old 17th October 2021, 09:31 AM   #64
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Femi tweeted

@Femi_Sorry
Boris Johnson: 'The best way to ensure every MPs IS properly safe is to get Brexit done'.

Translation: Follow my political agenda or you may die.

...which is the attitude behind every political assassination ever committed... promoted by the most powerful man in the country.

video in link https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/statu...71582507470850

Just a reminder of a comment Boris made just before Brexit.
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Old 17th October 2021, 10:00 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Jeff Woolnough, catholic priest involved tweeted

@JeffWoolnough
I’ve never spoken to the Mail- Complete fake news I’m afraid and again for the record/ I’m the pp of the RC church on the same road where my friend was murdered - that’s why I was at the scene refusing to speak to the press-patiently waiting and praying the rosary.
It is odd this has got so much attention. The only part of the Daily Mail article disputed is

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ess-rites.html

"But he (the Priest) told the Mail: 'The officers said that because it was a crime scene, and also the nature of the scene, it just wasn't possible.'"

The Priest denies actually speaking to the Mail and states journalists were listening in to what he was saying to others.
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Old 17th October 2021, 10:13 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is odd this has got so much attention. The only part of the Daily Mail article disputed is

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ess-rites.html

"But he (the Priest) told the Mail: 'The officers said that because it was a crime scene, and also the nature of the scene, it just wasn't possible.'"

The Priest denies actually speaking to the Mail and states journalists were listening in to what he was saying to others.
Well I know the Daily Mail would never print anything untruthful, that would rapidly destroy their credibility, so the Priest must be lying.
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Old 17th October 2021, 10:27 AM   #67
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It happened to me as a cop, journalists would try to listen in to conversations and then pretend they were told the information.
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Old 17th October 2021, 01:50 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What people don't see when they vilify MP's like David Amess as 'Tory scum' is where they are coming from. AIUI Amess was born in Plaistow, traditionally a poor area of East London, and by all accounts, Amess regarded himself as an 'East Ender', despite living in Southend-on Sea, or environs. It is this group of people who fervently worshipped Maggie Thatcher when she enabled them to buy their social housing on a 'Right-to-Buy' scheme, selling up and then moving away to places like Essex, on which Plaistow almost borders. So whilst I might be baffled as to why working class people who struggle to make ends meet would ever vote Tory, I have met Thatcher worshippers from Southend in sufficient numbers to realise that these are working class Tories and proud of it. A slightly different ilk from the David Camerons, Michael Fabricants (net worth £1.2m) and the Boris Johnsons of the world who just see them as the little people.

You've "met Thatcher worshippers from Southend in sufficient numbers to realise that...."?

Really? Have you?
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:07 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It happened to me as a cop, journalists would try to listen in to conversations and then pretend they were told the information.

As unsavoury and unethical as the Mail's tactics surely are on things like this, they - and their lawyers - are well aware of two very important things:

1) If a person says something in a public place, without the reasonable expectation of privacy, then it's usually fair game for reporting (even if, as apparently happened here, the words were spoken to someone other than the reporter).

2) In order for a reporter/publisher to face the real risk of defamation suit, the plaintiff has to show that the reported words were injurious to his/her reputation*. In this instance, it'd be functionally impossible for the priest to persuade a court that the words which the Mail ascribed to him were/are injurious to his reputation** - even if the Mail had entirely made the quote up (as opposed to having overheard him genuinely saying those words, but to someone other than the Mail reporter).


* The tabloid media in the UK abuse this facet of libel law frequently. In E&W, it's not libellous to print a "positive" story about someone - even if that story has been totally invented by the media outlet. Many articles about Diana, Princess of Wales (while she was still alive) fell into this category - including a memorable one where it was (mis)reported that she'd rescued a vagrant from drowning in Kensington Park one night. And many, many stories about the likes of pop stars and sports stars are of the same type.

** If, for instance, the Mail had invented a quote from the priest along the lines of "The police officer told me I could not give Sir David the last rites, so I told him (the officer) that he would be damned by God on his day of judgement", then things would be different (though quite what the appetite of priest to pursue libel cases on matters such as this would be, I'm far from sure....)
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:17 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Dan Hodges, Mail columnists wrote earlier in the week

"Labour MUST kill Vampire Jezza"

Yesterday he wrote

"I don't know why Sir David Amess was killed, but the visceral hatred of Tories at the heart of labour has to end right now"

I am going to preface this post of mine by stating that I have no time at all for Hodges, his political PoV, or pretty much everything that the Mail stands for.

But.....

Firstly (purely as a technical point of order), Hodges wrote that column in June 2016, soon after the EU Referendum - not "last week".

And secondly, the article in question was actually about senior Labour shadow cabinet members having contacted Hodges to tell him that the Referendum had only served to highlight Jeremy Corbyn's unpopularity among the electorate, and that Corbyn was (metaphorically, of course) sucking the life out of Labour's chances of winning the next General Election. In that context, the headline (with its vampire reference) actually has nothing to do with any real - or even implied - call to kill Jeremy Corbyn.

Not everything is entirely black or white......
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:21 PM   #71
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From Wikipedia:
Quote:
Ali Harbi Ali, a British citizen of Somali heritage, was arrested on suspicion of murder and has since been held under the Terrorism Act. He is understood to have extremist Islamic beliefs.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:32 PM   #72
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This government is really lucky in terms of distractions.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:34 PM   #73
Captain_Swoop
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I am going to preface this post of mine by stating that I have no time at all for Hodges, his political PoV, or pretty much everything that the Mail stands for.

But.....

Firstly (purely as a technical point of order), Hodges wrote that column in June 2016, soon after the EU Referendum - not "last week".

And secondly, the article in question was actually about senior Labour shadow cabinet members having contacted Hodges to tell him that the Referendum had only served to highlight Jeremy Corbyn's unpopularity among the electorate, and that Corbyn was (metaphorically, of course) sucking the life out of Labour's chances of winning the next General Election. In that context, the headline (with its vampire reference) actually has nothing to do with any real - or even implied - call to kill Jeremy Corbyn.

Not everything is entirely black or white......
Tone

He also tweeted this previously

(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
Replying to
@LordIanAustin

@IanAustinMP Tory scum.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 17th October 2021 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:42 PM   #74
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Femi tweeted

@Femi_Sorry
Boris Johnson: 'The best way to ensure every MPs IS properly safe is to get Brexit done'.

Translation: Follow my political agenda or you may die.

...which is the attitude behind every political assassination ever committed... promoted by the most powerful man in the country.

video in link https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/statu...71582507470850

Just a reminder of a comment Boris made just before Brexit.

Again, I most certainly am no fan of, or advocate for, Johnson. And I voted "remain" in the EU Referendum, and still wish that we had remained within the EU.

But....

His point here - although it's certainly hard to dispute that he expressed it in a clumsy and somewhat offensive manner (especially with his trademark half-smirk) - was specifically related to the very real levels of conflict and tension that had been stoked up across the population as a result of the Referendum result and the subsequent General Election (which in effect was serving as "a referendum on the referendum result").

Johnson was arguing - with, IMO, a fair deal of validity - that the febrile atmosphere across the UK was engendering a real risk of stoking up extremists (on either extreme end of the issue, not just Johnson's) to commit criminal acts. And that - again, with a fair deal of validity - the targets of their attacks might very well be the same legislators (ie MPs) who held a view that was opposite to theirs.

And given that a) the Referendum had resulted in a majority victory for "Leave", and b) two subsequent General Elections had effectively served as a form of endorsement for that "Leave" outcome, Johnson felt (and I'd agree) that the time had come to end the divisive political bickering over this issue; that the only thing this bickering was achieving was to perpetuate (and maybe even further magnify) tension among the public, and potentially giving succour to extremists to commit violent acts.


With all that in mind, I consider it irresponsible and partisan of (Femi) Oluwole to have 1) brought up this quote since Amess's death on Friday, entirely shorn of the required context, and 2) misrepresented it in the way she did: "follow my political agenda or you may die" (aside from its improper use of hyperbole, she's misrepresented Johnson's argument as pertaining only to his political enemies, whereas it's clear contextually that he was applying it to each and every parliamentarian, of every political colour and viewpoint).

But then, it's hardly as if Oluwole doesn't have considerable form in this sort of thing.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 17th October 2021 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:49 PM   #75
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Tone

Nope. It was very clearly a literary device, which no reasonable reader could possibly have taken as a threat of physical violence towards Corbyn (or even as any form of incitement of hatred towards him).



Quote:
He also tweeted this previously

(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
Replying to
@LordIanAustin

@IanAustinMP Tory scum.

I can't make sense of this at all - least of all how it supports your position. Would you link to the actual tweet?

(I'm hoping you know that (Lord) Ian Austin was a Labour MP, and sits in the Lords as a crossbench (ie independent) peer?)
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:54 PM   #76
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
This government is really lucky in terms of distractions.

??
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:57 PM   #77
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Link to the tweet

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/154137108129390593


It goes to show the tone of the Mail and other similar tabloids.

They are all about creating division and ramping up rhetoric, creating an atmosphere that results in political violence.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:15 PM   #78
Captain_Swoop
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
This government is really lucky in terms of distractions.
Yes indeed, hardly anyone noticed the collapse of talks around the trade deal with Australia
https://www.politico.eu/article/aust...-with-no-deal/

Or Raab suggesting he would find a way for the govt to “introduce ad hoc legislation to correct court judgments, whether passed by the ECHR in Strasbourg or by UK judges“ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1939870.html
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:50 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I am going to preface this post of mine by stating that I have no time at all for Hodges, his political PoV, or pretty much everything that the Mail stands for.

But.....

Firstly (purely as a technical point of order), Hodges wrote that column in June 2016, soon after the EU Referendum - not "last week".

And secondly, the article in question was actually about senior Labour shadow cabinet members having contacted Hodges to tell him that the Referendum had only served to highlight Jeremy Corbyn's unpopularity among the electorate, and that Corbyn was (metaphorically, of course) sucking the life out of Labour's chances of winning the next General Election. In that context, the headline (with its vampire reference) actually has nothing to do with any real - or even implied - call to kill Jeremy Corbyn.

Not everything is entirely black or white......
June 2016? Before or after Jo Cox was murdered?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 17th October 2021, 04:27 PM   #80
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Link to the tweet

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/154137108129390593


It goes to show the tone of the Mail and other similar tabloids.

They are all about creating division and ramping up rhetoric, creating an atmosphere that results in political violence.

While I totally concur with your PoV in general terms, I simply don't agree in this particular instance, specifically.

Hodges' tweet to Lord Austin was very clearly a) satirical (wrt Austin's political leanings), and b) a direct callback to Angela Rayner's (very real, and explicitly literally intended) remarks about "Tory scum". It's abundantly clear that Hodges was not directing any genuine animus towards Austin.


Look: I despise pretty much everything that the Mail stands for (as I've stated before), and in particular the way it goes about the material it misrepresents as factual reportage. But this particular instance is simply not something which serves as evidence of that.

As it happens, most of the Mail's coverage about the killing of Sir David Amess has been responsible and restrained - and I'd make the observation that when it comes to momentous matters of life and death, almost all the UK mainstream media abide properly by the right ethical standards. Social media is now the standard cesspit for unethical reporting/commentary on these sorts of events.
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