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Old 5th March 2021, 01:44 AM   #441
KDLarsen
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Well now they're being forced by fascists not to meet their Australia contract commitments either.

Does the word compromise not enter their vocabulary ?
Does the word share not enter their vocabulary ?

The EU messed up, that's not Australia's fault. IS IT ?
How so? It's AstraZeneca who have been unable to deliver the vaccines they've signed a contract to provide.

And if you're going to spout the "Best reasonable effort"-line, keep in mind the UK contract has the same language, and I'm not seeing the UK being in any rush to transfer vaccines produced there to the EU.
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Old 5th March 2021, 02:02 AM   #442
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Australia’s Prime Minister Morrison, who I hate, said Italy needs the vaccine more than the covid-free Australia. And I agree with him.

The problem in Australia is that vaccinations will allow overseas citizens to come home sooner, and we can travel overseas sooner. So the sooner we vaccinate the better. But Italy first.
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Old 5th March 2021, 02:20 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
How so?
The EU were slow to start to procure the vaccines in the first place and then started placing unrealistic lead times upon the company, and then started demanding priority over other customers who had also paid.

Ok, Australia's government has been perfectly reasonable, but the Commission has not.

Australia may be covid free but tourism is a needed part of Australia's economy. Vaccination will enable tourism.

If the EU will not fairly share, we in the UK can.

Vaccine nationalism isn't a good thing.
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Old 5th March 2021, 02:23 AM   #444
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Boris Johnson lying again.

Quote:
Dozens of Covid contracts had not been published when Boris Johnson told MPs they were "on the record for everyone to see", campaigners say.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56281934
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Old 5th March 2021, 02:47 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
£22 billion, did you say?
If we all walk up and down the garden - with or without a zimmer frame - with Go Fund Me sponsorship, we might be able to raise this sum.
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Old 5th March 2021, 03:31 AM   #446
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The Italian government has blocked the export of an Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine shipment to Australia.

The decision affects 250,000 doses of the vaccine produced at an AstraZeneca facility in Italy.

Italy is the first EU country to use the bloc's new regulations allowing exports to be stopped if the company providing the vaccines has failed to meet its obligations to the EU.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56279202
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Old 5th March 2021, 03:32 AM   #447
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Cyprus has said it will open its borders to vaccinated Britons from the start of May - but UK government travel restrictions will still be in force.

The Cypriot government said those who had both Covid jabs could travel there without restrictions from 1 May.

But this is more than two weeks before the earliest date those in England will be able to go abroad for holidays.

Cyprus has not yet said how British tourists will be required to prove they have had both vaccine doses.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56289054
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Old 5th March 2021, 04:08 AM   #448
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So will the UK be delivering some of it's vaccines to Australia to make up the difference?
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Old 5th March 2021, 04:17 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The EU were slow to start to procure the vaccines in the first place and then started placing unrealistic lead times upon the company, and then started demanding priority over other customers who had also paid.

Ok, Australia's government has been perfectly reasonable, but the Commission has not.

Australia may be covid free but tourism is a needed part of Australia's economy. Vaccination will enable tourism.

If the EU will not fairly share, we in the UK can.

Vaccine nationalism isn't a good thing.
Tourism is pretty important in Italy, Spain, Greece (especially) etc too. Is Australia especially hit by a cut in tourism?
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Old 5th March 2021, 04:38 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
£37bn is more than half of the entire MOD budget for a year.
There has to be something more to this how could it cost so much? You could employ everyone in the bloody country for that much!
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Old 5th March 2021, 04:47 AM   #451
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It is twice as much as planned spending on RN ships and equipment procurement for the next 10 years or the same as combined spending on RAF and Amy equipment procurement for the next 10 years.
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Old 5th March 2021, 04:56 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Well now they're being forced by fascists not to meet their Australia contract commitments either.
The only fascist I know of is in the UK:
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/po...encies-190877/
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:30 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by Captain Swoop
£37bn is more than half of the entire MOD budget for a year.

It's significantly more than the entire block grant that's supposed to let the Scottish parliament run the whole of Scotland for a year. I think we get about £30 billion, and spend £10 billion of that on NHS Scotland. All of it. Everything. For an entire year.
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:35 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Australia’s Prime Minister Morrison, who I hate, said Italy needs the vaccine more than the covid-free Australia. And I agree with him.

The problem in Australia is that vaccinations will allow overseas citizens to come home sooner, and we can travel overseas sooner. So the sooner we vaccinate the better. But Italy first.
Now might be the time to start vaccinations in earnest ready for the winter in Oz (yes I know it's not exactly subarctic, but colder weather does seem to play a part in increasing transmission).

Wasn't AZ going to set up a plant in Oz?
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:49 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
The only fascist I know of is in the UK:
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/po...encies-190877/
The London Economic ?!!!
Aka "sham journalists are us".
You might as well have linked to the Daily Fail.

Meanwhile:
Fascism = system of government characterised by extreme dictatorship.

EU = system of government run by unelected Commissioners (aka dictatorship).
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:49 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The fascist EU Commission has just stopped Italian made vaccines from being exported to Australia.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...ralia-12235848

So glad I voted leave.

What scummy behaviour.
Well the Italian government has certainly been fascist in the past but didn’t realise it was again fascist.
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:50 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Tourism is pretty important in Italy, Spain, Greece (especially) etc too. Is Australia especially hit by a cut in tourism?
And they too need vaccines.

But is trying to punish other countries, for mistakes in their own the answer ?
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:51 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So will the UK be delivering some of it's vaccines to Australia to make up the difference?
Certainly hope not - we’ve not voted for our non-democratically elected PM and all the non-democratically elected Ministers to give away OUR vaccine!!!!
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:53 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well the Italian government has certainly been fascist in the past but didn’t realise it was again fascist.
No, I said that the von der Leyen Commission were fascist for doing this dictatorial and nationalistic move.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_der_Leyen_Commission
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:54 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Certainly hope not - we’ve not voted for our non-democratically elected PM and all the non-democratically elected Ministers to give away OUR vaccine!!!!
I would be quite happy for us to share our vaccines with others.
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:54 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Tourism is pretty important in Italy, Spain, Greece (especially) etc too. Is Australia especially hit by a cut in tourism?
And pretty important in the UK.

Granted not as important as the 24,000 jobs in the fishing industry - I think it’s only a million and a half directly employed in the UK tourism industry!
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:54 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I would be quite happy for us to share our vaccines with others.
Then vote for that.
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Old 5th March 2021, 05:56 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's significantly more than the entire block grant that's supposed to let the Scottish parliament run the whole of Scotland for a year. I think we get about £30 billion, and spend £10 billion of that on NHS Scotland. All of it. Everything. For an entire year.
This is why I cannot get my head around it, I don’t know how you could spend so much so quickly.
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:06 AM   #464
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If we had a referendum on it I would.

But as we aren't, I'm simply talking to my MP instead.
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:14 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Now might be the time to start vaccinations in earnest ready for the winter in Oz (yes I know it's not exactly subarctic, but colder weather does seem to play a part in increasing transmission).

Wasn't AZ going to set up a plant in Oz?
Yes, we have an AZ plant capable of producing a million doses a day.

And the cold weather is unlikely to be an issue with the virus virtually eliminated.
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:17 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Tourism is pretty important in Italy, Spain, Greece (especially) etc too. Is Australia especially hit by a cut in tourism?
Tourism is important to Australia, but nowhere near as much as education. Overseas, mainly Asian, students is one of our biggest industries.
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:29 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And they too need vaccines.

But is trying to punish other countries, for mistakes in their own the answer ?
How is the manufacturer not meeting the contract a mistake by the EU?
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:31 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
No, I said that the von der Leyen Commission were fascist for doing this dictatorial and nationalistic move.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_der_Leyen_Commission
It's the Italian govt doing it, not the EU.
Almost as if it was up to the national government.
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:36 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The EU were slow to start to procure the vaccines in the first place and then started placing unrealistic lead times upon the company, and then started demanding priority over other customers who had also paid.
The EU signed a contract with AstraZeneca the day before the UK did, so claiming they were slow to procure is a bit of a strech. On top of that, at that point there were no still guarantees at how successful the potential vaccines would be (hence the infamous 'Best reasonable effort' - and indeed, some efforts has failed, such as that of the Pasteur Institute), requiring them to spread procurement orders acreoss numerous vaccine efforts.

The UK took a bet and gambled hard on the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, allowing emergency use authorisation, while the EU took the standard authorisation route, and they got lucky and it paid off.

Right now the the EU uptake of vaccine is mainly due to lack of supplies and the lack of a pre-existing vaccination framework in some of the member states. I've read one article describing how the vaccine debacle has exposed just how antiquated the digital infrastructure is in Germany, to the point that when testing, they have to transmit the result to a central office by fax, where the result is then manually entered into a database.

Last edited by KDLarsen; 5th March 2021 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:38 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
If we had a referendum on it I would.

But as we aren't, I'm simply talking to my MP instead.
So no democratic say on whether we give OUR vaccine to some foreigners- seems rather fascist to me…..
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:38 AM   #471
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This is why I cannot get my head around it, I don’t know how you could spend so much so quickly.

Me neither. I mean, I'm used to thinking about £30 billion because it's been about that much for most of this century, it hasn't gone up (although there have been some changes to how the money is raised recently). Scotland lives on that, by law. Until very recently we had no real powers to raise taxes here, and we still have no borrowing powers. Holyrood isn't allowed to run any deficit, so everything has to be done out of that money.

£10 billion runs NHS Scotland, so everything else in the country gets done out of the remaining £20 billion. The new M8 motorway, the Queensferry Crossing, the Commonwealth Games, the dualling of the M9, plus all the ordinary stuff like bin emptying and street lights and public libraries (yes there are rates too, but most of the local authorities' funding comes from Holyrood).

How can you possibly spend £37 billion on a contact tracing system for England alone, that doesn't even work? I mean I know there are about ten times as many people in England than in Scotland, but it's still completely insane. Somebody must have got their decimal points in a twist, surely. Or it hasn't been spent at all, it's just in Dido Harding's (mates') offshore bank accounts.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 5th March 2021 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:51 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
infrastructure is in Germany, to the point that when testing, they have to transmit the result to a central office by fax, where the result is then manually entered into a database.
It probably works better than our £37billion test and track system
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Old 5th March 2021, 07:19 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This is why I cannot get my head around it, I don’t know how you could spend so much so quickly.
It seems that it might not have been spent yet, the figure is a budgetary one.

Here's a breakdown of the expenditure up to September 2020:

https://committees.parliament.uk/pub...35138/default/

The monthly budget of £2bn was to cover 800k tests a day. I don't know whether anything like that number is being done or whether the cost remains the same regardless of the number of tests.

edited to add....

Seems that the tests are running at a 7 day average of around 600k per day, or around 18 million a month. If a test costs £100 then you can blow through money pretty quickly.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/testing

Last edited by The Don; 5th March 2021 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:00 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The London Economic ?!!!
Aka "sham journalists are us".
You might as well have linked to the Daily Fail.

Meanwhile:
Fascism = system of government characterised by extreme dictatorship.

EU = system of government run by unelected Commissioners (aka dictatorship).
I thought you may have known that a letter from Farage's school days showed evidence of a fascist past:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7185236.html
https://www.channel4.com/news/nigel-...racism-fascism

And you clearly struggle with what fascism actually is. The EU is a democratic body. Has even won the Nobel Peace Prize for promoting democracy. Fascism is about totalitarianism etc.

Throwing around insults that bare no relation to reality are meant to achieve what exactly?
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:21 AM   #475
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Quote:
Seems that the tests are running at a 7 day average of around 600k per day, or around 18 million a month. If a test costs £100 then you can blow through money pretty quickly.

It's hard for me to imagine a high-volume PCR costing that much. £20 or £25 maybe. This was my job for over a decade. Including actually charging clients. Anything that got anywhere near three figures would be a specialist one-off test for something unusual.

And that's assuming individual tests. By using a pooling system we had the real high-volume ones down to about £4 a pop. Pooling is going to delay confirmation of a positive result by one assay cycle, so maybe you don't want to do that, but frankly it saves so much money and if you are running very high volumes it doesn't delay that much it's worth thinking about.
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:28 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's hard for me to imagine a high-volume PCR costing that much. £20 or £25 maybe. This was my job for over a decade. Including actually charging clients. Anything that got anywhere near three figures would be a specialist one-off test for something unusual.

And that's assuming individual tests. By using a pooling system we had the real high-volume ones down to about £4 a pop. Pooling is going to delay confirmation of a positive result by one assay cycle, so maybe you don't want to do that, but frankly it saves so much money and if you are running very high volumes it doesn't delay that much it's worth thinking about.
The £100 was pulled out of the air, though you pay £90-£300 for a private test.

They may only cost a few pounds to run once the test is well established, the testing process has been honed and millions of tests have been run but it's not out of the bounds of possibility that the prices were set long ago.
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:34 AM   #477
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The export restrictions in the US and UK have created really high demand for vaccines from the EU. I'm sure if the EU had to do it over again it would not have funded vaccine production in an unreliable partner like the UK. It should have been obvious from the start that the UK would turn around and try to hoard all vaccines for itself leaving the rest of the EU in short supply.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Times are tough everywhere. I'd rather everyone got a little now and kept getting more, than some get a lot and others get nothing.

I'm not sure how slipping production goals in the current situation is such a grave error that the Italians need to punish the Australians over it.
The EU is the only somewhat reliable source for vaccines. The mechanisms put in place under the previous US administration make it all but impossible to get vaccines from the US and the UK followed the US last month. Even the EU, which partly funded the production facility in the UK doesn't have fair access to vaccines produced there.
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:44 AM   #478
Airfix
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's the Italian govt doing it, not the EU.
Almost as if it was up to the national government.
Erm, it's both.
The Italian government requested permission from the Commission to do that.
And previously the Commission drew up a policy to withhold vaccines which the UK had paid for, from the UK.

Basically, a political bully.
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:45 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
The EU is a democratic body.
No it isn't.

The public never get to elect the Commission, the policy making body of the EU.
They only ever get to elect scrutineers of policy, and whilst that may be good enough for you, it was not good enough for me.
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:57 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by The Don
The £100 was pulled out of the air, though you pay £90-£300 for a private test.

They may only cost a few pounds to run once the test is well established, the testing process has been honed and millions of tests have been run but it's not out of the bounds of possibility that the prices were set long ago.

If anyone is charging that to a large purchaser, the large purchaser is being taken for a ride. Actually, if anyone is charging that to a small/occasional purchaser, that purchaser is also being taken for a ride.

I worked in this field all my professional career. It's competitive. Nobody just pays what a lab asks, and if there is a lab that's being paid that sort of money per test for a high-volume PCR then somebody needs to be asking who authorised that grossly excessive payment and where is the money going.
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