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Old 18th September 2021, 07:46 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is very obvious to me that it was an act of sabotage
How is it very obvious? And if the hallmarks of "very obvious" sabotage are present, you should be able to tell us *which* method of sabotage was used. And yet you have yet to decide whether it was a torpedo, a submarine ramming, a mine, or an explosive charge place by someone on board the ship. Which, among other things, suggest that the signs of sabotage are not so "very obvious" as you make out.

Quote:
by person/s unknown who made darn sure the ship would end its journey at (a) Swedish midnight (b) in international waters and (c) it made sure it would sink ASAP with near zero chance of rescuing those on board. It is actually astonishing that 137 escaped, 58 of them crew. Just 79 passengers.
How do you know that these specific outcomes were intended?

Quote:
It is also clear the while thing is 'classified' to justify the deception.
How do you know? What facts in your possession make this "very clear"?

Quote:
Of course the authorities knew of the hole in the starboard.
The navy divers could not have missed it.
How do you now?
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Old 19th September 2021, 12:12 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yes, but apart from that, what reason do you have for thinking it wasn’t a mine?
Because they didn't find a hole in the side of the ship in the shape of a coyote.



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Old 19th September 2021, 12:17 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We know now it was not a mine but at the time of the accident it was a realistic possibility, given the disaster occurred in the military region of Utö and its history of mines. Johanson was actually being very logical.
Then why even bring it up.

And no, the guy was just covering his butt because there was a good chance the crew and captain screwed something up, which is at the heart of most disasters at sea.
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Old 19th September 2021, 12:31 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is very obvious to me that it was an act of sabotage by person/s unknown who made darn sure the ship would end its journey at (a) Swedish midnight (b) in international waters and (c) it made sure it would sink ASAP with near zero chance of rescuing those on board. It is actually astonishing that 137 escaped, 58 of them crew. Just 79 passengers.

1. Swedish Midnight sounds like a cheap perfume, or dirty movie from the 1970s. The problem is the Estonia was three hours behind schedule so if your claim is correct then it didn't sink where they wanted it to sink.

2. International waters but Sweden took control anyway, so who cares? And if the Estonia had left on time, using your theory, it would have sunk in Swedish waters and then ze Germans could never have dived on the wreck and found the hole.

3. Technically it didn't sink all that fast. Had the crew and the captain done their job and sent a damage control party to the car deck they would have identified the problem, slowed down, called for help sooner, and got more people off the ship.

Quote:
It is also clear the while thing is 'classified' to justify the deception. Of course the authorities knew of the hole in the starboard. The navy divers could not have missed it.
And how would they have seen it with the ship lying on its side covering the hole and eliminating access to that part of the ship? You can't cover up something you don't see.
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Old 19th September 2021, 12:41 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
And how would they have seen it with the ship lying on its side covering the hole and eliminating access to that part of the ship? You can't cover up something you don't see.

I’m sure it should have been “very obvious” that the hole was there, even if it couldn’t be seen.
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:16 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Why?

Why is it obvious to you (i.e. what evidence do you base this on), and why would the “person/s unknown” think that it was necessary to sink it at midnight, in international waters, and with maximum loss of life?
To send a clear message. Isn't that what political/terrorist acts aim to do?

Think about the KAL civilian airline shot down by the Russians. Everybody thinks it is OK because the pilot accidently impinged on Russian airspace. Same principle here, except this time it is 'classified'.
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:28 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
All irrelevant to the conspiracy you want us to believe.

You want us to believe that Bildt could not have learned that any witness claimed the bow door broke off until after he told the press that this seemed to be what had happened.

So you want us to infer that either Bildt or whoever briefed him already knew the bow door caused the sinking or that they decided to claim it did and presumably divers faked that damage later, any version of which would be a conspiracy.

Well, no. The whole house of cards collapses because there was plenty of time for the rescued to begin telling their rescuers what happened and for that to be reported on.

Bildt *is* irrelevant.
No, I didn't say the divers faked any damage. Think about it. One of the biggest civilian maritime accidents of all time. PM Aho and PM Laar had no problem remembering how they found out about it and by whom. Bildt, when asked the same question at the time, replied 'I don't remember'.

Of course he remembers! It was his leaving do. He was called aside in the middle of it. Bildt just didn't want to reveal a highly significant fact: that he was likely informed immediately by his intelligence agents. Having decided very early on the whole thing was to be 'classified' the cover up started from Time Zero.

Who believes Bildt forgets who informed him and when?

Bildt did not interview any survivors until late afternoon 28 Sept 1994 the same day of the accident and that was Sillaste, together with Aho and Laar and the police. Laar confirmed Sillaste never mentioned the bow visor in that interview.

If you look at the JAIC report you'll see the other crew were not interviewed until 29 Sept 1994.

Bildt made the bow visor announcement as per press conference with the Swedish press at circa 4:00pm 28 Sept 1994 when nobody could possibly have known this for sure...unless they had military/intelligence personnel who were there at the time or ... actually carried it out.
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:38 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Which of the several kinds of acts of sabotage is it obvious to you happened? Does Prof. Amdahl, for example, believe a sea mine caused the damage to the starboard side? You've told us we have to accept his conclusion because he is well qualified and dispassionate. But you bristle every time we point out any of the several ways in which he could be in error. At the same time, he must be in error if the sea-mine theory that you're now preaching is what's "obvious" happened.

As I wrote weeks ago, the difference between real investigation and conspiracism is that real investigators hope to converge in the direction toward some hypothesis that explains all the evidence. Conspiracy theorist merely run away from the conventional narrative. They have no better idea what actually did happen, or at least none they can articulate without speculation, contradiction, and often foot-stamping.
I have not instructed anyone we have to accept his conclusion because he is well qualified and dispassionate. We are all adults capable of making up our own minds. It was you who cast aspersions on Professor Amdahl's expertise and thus his qualifications became relevant: he is (a) an expert in marine collisions - he has investigated them first-hand, he knows what they look like; he knows how to do the calculations and (b) he has no dog in this fight: he is Norwegian and thus has no bias conscious or unconscious one way or another.


The JAIC never even considered the possibility of a collision - despite the huge hole in the starboard - so IMV you err when you claim it did its job properly and thoroughly.

I don't stamp my feet because I could not care less whether people agree with me or not. Unlike you, I can accept that people disagreeing with my views is their prerogative and does not mean they should be told off and given a dressing down over all of their perceived and imagined short-comings and grilling them on whether they ever studied physics or advanced rocket science and space aerodynamics to shut them down.
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:44 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
This much is obvious (with the inexplicable exception of the failure of a poorly maintained bow hood).
I very clearly said it was poorly maintained, with the atlantic lock needing to be hammered into place by the crew and the mating lugs misaligning so that oftentimes as not the car ramp was secured by hawsers to the capstan on the front deck. In addition, the car ramp was known to be leaky with crew stuffing bedding in the gaps to try to block out the ingress. Passengers had complained in the past of 9cms of water lapping around their vehicles.

Yet the JAIC made it clear the vessel was seaworthy. (This is equivalent to a car annual MOT.)

You can't cherry pick the JAIC conclusions. You can't claim the vessel was poorly maintained but yet agree with the JAIC and claim its conclusions are correct and logical.
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:46 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Broken bones and injuries are to be expected.

Why do you think I asked about ankles and ears?

Where is the damage that would indicate a WW2 mine had hit the ship?

Did you see the pictures of mine damage? did you watch the video of a mine blowing up?

there is no damage to the Estonia that indicates any kind of mine damage. there is no testimony that indicates any kind of mine damage.
Yes, showing pictures of controlled explosions is very spectacular but most times a mine on a ship's hull or a ship running into one would not be as ferocious as it has not met explosive with explosive as in a controlled blast.

You knows as well as I do explosives come in all quantities. They can be big or small.
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:52 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How was he 'covering his own back'?
Er, Bild was ultimately responsible for authorising the Swedish intelligence services to use the Estonia ferry to smuggle out Russian state secrets knowing full well this was highly dangerous to the passengers. The capacity was some 2,000. The Estonian intelligence agencies (then KSI, CIA and MI6 developing it) were formally warned by the Russians at least twice to cease and desist.

Calling the whole affair 'classified top secret' was the disgusting cowardly response of the Swedish defence forces, the CIA and the MI6, instead of coming clean.

It makes my blood boil that the relatives were denied bringing home their loved ones for a proper burial. Even the clerics (Lutheran, Catholic, Orthodox et al ) who perform the annual memorial service refuse to consecrate it as the victims' final resting place.
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:53 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
True. Hitting an old sea mine definitely is not a "very obvious" act of sabotage, so I infer that means Vixen does not believe that happened.
It was a perfectly reasonable supposition at the time by Johanson of Estline. Given the sheer speed of sinking.
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:55 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That is not evidence that the estonia was being tracked by a submarine.

How do you think SOSUS works?

If they wanted to track the Estonia why not just follow it on radar?

Why would it need tracking? they knew where it was going.
It very likely and almost certainly (cf eyewitnesses Hedrenius and Ovberg) carried military cargo and thus would have ipso facto needed a military escort. Wouldn't want bootleggers getting their hands on such sensitive material!
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:57 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sure, Estline"s opinion will weighed, but not by the reporter. For one thing, it's doubtful he's qualified.

Estline's comments were newsworthy. That's all that the publication indicates.

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A good journalist does his or her homework. That means researching previous newspaper articles.
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:59 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
If you find flame wars so boring then why have you falsely claimed that your critics have made callous jokes about the victims of the disaster, that your critics want survivors testimony censored and that your critics need Fox News and the Daily Mail to tell them what to think?

You made these claims and refuse to offer evidence to defend them, and when called on it, you accuse me of derailing the thread?
It is true, is it not? People won't accept something as being true until it is endorsed by the Murdoch/Barclay Brothers/Fox News/AP/Reuters press. This is hardly controversial. If the cap fits, wear it. If not, then why take it personally?
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Old 19th September 2021, 03:02 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
So you’re going back on your claim that it was likely an accident caused by a collision with a British or Swedish submarine escorting the Estonia?
The short answer is: I don't know. What is apparent is the involvement of:
  • Sweden
  • the USA
  • the UK
  • Russia
...And it was not an everyday accident as the JAIC tries to claim.
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Old 19th September 2021, 03:06 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
It’s “common sense common knowledge” that the crew, after abandoning ship, being rescued, taken to hospital, presumably given dry clothing to replace the wet clothing they were rescued in, having gone 24 hours without sleep, been treated for things like whatever shock, trauma or injuries they suffered, would still have their NMT phones and that still worked and that would choose to phone their employers? Or that they would choose at that traumatic moment to use a hospital phone to phone their employers?

How is that common knowledge or common sense?
The Estonian Embassy were in contact with the Estonian survivors acting on their behalf. They then acted as a go between to inform relatives of the survivors. The Estonian Embassy were told that eleven crew members were survivors and even notified the wives and next of kin as to what flight niumber and date their loved ones would return home (for example, Captain Piht) so obviously there were means of communication. If one has staff of course you would feel responsible for their welfare and take steps to contact them.
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Old 19th September 2021, 03:08 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
It’s “common sense common knowledge” that the crew, after abandoning ship, being rescued, taken to hospital, presumably given dry clothing to replace the wet clothing they were rescued in, having gone 24 hours without sleep, been treated for things like whatever shock, trauma or injuries they suffered, would still have their NMT phones and that still worked and that would choose to phone their employers? Or that they would choose at that traumatic moment to use a hospital phone to phone their employers?

How is that common knowledge or common sense?
The crew managed to nip into warm clothing and survivor suits sharpishly so why wouldn't they have ensured their NMT's weren't likewise safe and waterproofed. After all, they managed to find their way to life rafts tout suite despite their 'poor training'.
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Old 19th September 2021, 03:27 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
When will you realise that the real elephant in the room - wrt your increasingly far-fetched conspiracy theories - is that the original investigators didn't see that "massive hole in the starboard" (the starboard what, for that matter?) because....

.... the ship was lying on the sea bed on its starboard side at the time when the original investigators conducted their survey of the wreck?


And to this end, it's been observed that the pattern of damage to the starboard hull closely correlates to the topography of the sea bed adjacent to the hull - including the presence of an outcrop of bedrock matching (in location and size) the area of most severe damage. Which serves to bolster the hypothesis that initially the ship was resting on its starboard side, and only subsequently shifted its position* such that a) the starboard hull damage was now visible and b) the sea bed topography that likely caused that damage was also now visible.


* probably owing to strong currents, coupled with the indication that this initial resting point was something of an unstable equilibrium (owing to the topography of the sea bed where the Estonia very probably first came to rest).
Wear and tear damage doesn't cancel out damage that occurred pre-sinking.


The Arikas team clearly states there is a large hole which is quite separate from the geologically-consistent deformations to be expected after 26 years.


Quote:
The force that caused damage in the side of the hull, on the other hand, would have to be "enormous", Arikas said, adding that the exact extent of the damage is not known as it could also reach below the hull; the ferry's seventh and eighth decks (of 10) remained inaccessible, he said.
ERR. News
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Old 19th September 2021, 03:32 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Well if you're assuming this, it's strange that you still appear not to believe in the (very real) possibility that these crewmembers' employers asked them if they'd seen anything which might explain how & why the ship sank.

And that at least some of these crewmembers very probably saw - either while abandoning ship or once they were in a life raft/boat - that the bow visor was entirely missing and the bow ramp was so badly damaged that sea water could easily enter the vehicle deck at a rapid rate.

And that these crewmembers might very easily have understood enough about the catastrophic effect of flooding the ship's interior - especially the wide-open vehicle deck - that they would quickly & easily be able to understand that the missing bow visor and the damaged bow ramp were responsible (especially when coupled with the very choppy sea and the fact that the ship remained at high speed until after it was too late) for the sinking of the Estonia.


(And, in passing, one would never talk of "NMT phones" in this context. As I explained before, NMT was simply a standard for early analogue mobile phones. To talk of an "NMT phone" would be akin to talking about an "LTE-A phone" nowadays (LTE-A is one of the global standards for 4G mobile telephony). In 1994 they would simply have talked of "using a mobile phone (or cellphone)". Just as nowadays we simply talk of "using a mobile phone (or cellphone)")
Then it is a pity Sillaste never mentioned this key point when first interviewed 28 September 1994. Clearly, it was not at the forefront of his mind. And he was there, unlike Bildt.

It seems obvious to me that crew would be supplied with proper communications equipment whilst out at sea. Many passengers said when they rang up their next of kin to say they had survived, their kin were very surprised as the accident hadn't even been on the news yet or hadn't seen the news. So if the passengers rang home then why wouldn't the crew ring in to their employers?
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Old 19th September 2021, 03:36 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Hoo boy.

(I suppose at least you're finally putting your own cards on the table, rather than pretending that all you're doing is putting forth others' opinions for discussion....)
I have never shied away from it.
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Old 19th September 2021, 03:41 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
This is horrible circular reasoning. One could apply your rule, for example, to those 9/11 "Truthers" who believe the Twin Towers were brought down from within by Thermite: they could (and do) "reason" that their Thermite theory actually happened ("Just look at the footage which clearly shows cascading explosions as the towers fall!"), and must not therefore be labelled a conspiracy theory.

Perhaps this will serve to illustrate the logical failure of your approach on this matter. But perhaps not.
I bought an airport book on 9/11 conspiracy theories and whilst I don't subscribe to any, as about 15 of the 22 or so terrorists involved were Saudi Arabian, of course it is a cover up by the US government to claim 'it has nothing to do with Saudi Arabia'. Sometimes things are obvious and in plain sight! Just because the PTB refuse to confirm it doesn't mean it ain't so. Even Osama Bib Laden is a Saudi. Come on.

This is what happens when something is declared 'classified'. Anyone asking reasonable questions is defamed as a 'conspiracy theorist'. Some are, of course, but others are ordinary people like you or I with enquiring minds that need to know.

If you can't smell a rat with the sinking of the Estonia maybe you are just have less curiousity than others, who do.
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Old 19th September 2021, 03:42 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The crew managed to nip into warm clothing and survivor suits sharpishly so why wouldn't they have ensured their NMT's weren't likewise safe and waterproofed.
Why would they go to the trouble of ensuring their phones were waterproofed, keeping them on their person throughout the whole ideal, throughout the abandonment, rescue, hospital treatment, change of clothes etc. and then after having faced death in the face, suffering from trauma, having gone 24 hours without sleep, then decided to phone their employers?

Remember, it's your claim that all of this is "common sense and common knowledge" that this would have happened and that you don't need to provide any citations or sources or references to this because it's as obvious to you as the sky is blue.

Please explain how this is a safe assumption.
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Old 19th September 2021, 03:47 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Vixen
It is very obvious to me that it was an act of sabotage by person/s unknown
Originally Posted by JesseCuster
So you’re going back on your claim that it was likely an accident caused by a collision with a British or Swedish submarine escorting the Estonia?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The short answer is: I don't know.
It's very obvious to you that the sinking of the Estonia was an act of sabotage.

But you don't know whether or not it was an accidental collision with a friendly submarine?

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Old 19th September 2021, 03:59 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

Yet the JAIC made it clear the vessel was seaworthy. (This is equivalent to a car annual MOT.)
.
No it is not. JAIC has nothing to do with testing or certifying the ship as seaworthy.
At the time the ship sailed it was seaworthy.

As for an MOT on a car. It tests only certain certain mechanical components. If they pass the test the car is roadworthy at the time of the test
One of the components could fail as you drive home from the test, your car would still have been roadworthy at the time of the test though.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:00 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
1. Swedish Midnight sounds like a cheap perfume, or dirty movie from the 1970s. The problem is the Estonia was three hours behind schedule so if your claim is correct then it didn't sink where they wanted it to sink.

2. International waters but Sweden took control anyway, so who cares? And if the Estonia had left on time, using your theory, it would have sunk in Swedish waters and then ze Germans could never have dived on the wreck and found the hole.

3. Technically it didn't sink all that fast. Had the crew and the captain done their job and sent a damage control party to the car deck they would have identified the problem, slowed down, called for help sooner, and got more people off the ship.



And how would they have seen it with the ship lying on its side covering the hole and eliminating access to that part of the ship? You can't cover up something you don't see.
Nonsense. It was scheduled to set off at 7:00pm from Tallinn but was about fifteen minutes late. It made up time by going slightly faster than the usual 18 knots, or so.

Given 34 of the surviving 79 passengers related in their signed witness statements hearing a series of bangs and/or a feeling of collision from the starboard side, with those reaching the deck, assembling literally on the now horizontal port side, it was the JAIC's duty to investigate these accounts.

Grossly negligent to ignore them or rewrite them to fit the forgone conclusion, as edicted by Bildt.

Two eyewitnesses (Reintaam, Barney) recounted something seeming to move away from the vessel shortly after.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:02 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, showing pictures of controlled explosions is very spectacular but most times a mine on a ship's hull or a ship running into one would not be as ferocious as it has not met explosive with explosive as in a controlled blast.

You knows as well as I do explosives come in all quantities. They can be big or small.
Of course it would be 'as ferocious' Did you not see the photographs of mine damage? That was damage to warships, designed to withstand far more damage than a ferry.

How could a 'controlled' explosion be more 'ferocious' than the mine exploding on contact with a ship?

Explosives might be 'big or small' but we know the quantities used in German naval mines of WW2
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:05 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It very likely and almost certainly (cf eyewitnesses Hedrenius and Ovberg) carried military cargo and thus would have ipso facto needed a military escort. Wouldn't want bootleggers getting their hands on such sensitive material!
'ipso facto'?

How is it almost certain the ship was carrying a 'military cargo'?

What would this 'military escort' do?

What did they think was going to happen to the Estonia that a submarine could influence?

Was a pirate ship going to force them to heave to in a storm and board them?

If the hijackers were already aboard, what good would a sub be?

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Old 19th September 2021, 04:12 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Estonian Embassy were in contact with the Estonian survivors acting on their behalf. They then acted as a go between to inform relatives of the survivors. The Estonian Embassy were told that eleven crew members were survivors and even notified the wives and next of kin as to what flight niumber and date their loved ones would return home (for example, Captain Piht) so obviously there were means of communication. If one has staff of course you would feel responsible for their welfare and take steps to contact them.
So they told the Estonian Embassy staff what happened but none of the rescuers or hospital staff?
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:13 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
It's very obvious to you that the sinking of the Estonia was an act of sabotage.

But you don't know whether or not it was an accidental collision with a friendly submarine?
It is not something that has been revealed to the public. Of course the Swedish navy immediately did its own investigation. The results of that naturally are a state secret.

The JAIC investigation was a formality in confirming Bildt's edict it should not blame anybody for the accident and was just a facsimile replication of The Herald of Free Enterprise capsizing six years earlier, except this, time, the covering bow visor had to somehow have come off for water to have flooded the car deck.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:18 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The JAIC investigation was a formality in confirming Bildt's edict it should not blame anybody for the accident and was just a facsimile replication of The Herald of Free Enterprise capsizing six years earlier, except this, time, the covering bow visor had to somehow have come off for water to have flooded the car deck.
Source? Citation? Evidence? Anything at all to back up this theory of a conspiracy?
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:21 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is not something that has been revealed to the public.
That's not what I asked you.

You stated that it is obvious that the Estonia was sunk by an act of sabotage.

So I then asked you if that means you're going back on your claim that it was probably sank by an accidental collision with a friendly submarine.

You stated that you didn't know.

How can you think it's obvious that it was sank by an act of sabotage and simultaneously not be sure if it was probably sank by an accidental collision with a friendly submarine?

Last edited by JesseCuster; 19th September 2021 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:25 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
For a witness statement to have evidentiary value it needs to be properly recorded with date, time, witnesses and signed, preferably in the presence of someone like the police or lawyer.
You weren't asked about witness statements.

You were asked about survivors being asked in the immediate aftermath of the disaster what happened to give some idea of what caused the disaster.

When someone is asked in the immediate wake of a disaster what happened to allow rescuers or investigators some idea of what happened, you don't have lawyers, cops, signed statements, witnesses, etc. Where do you get this nonsense from?
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:32 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster
If the Estonia was sunk by an unexploded leftover WWII mine, then why would Carl Bildt make up a story about it being sunk by the bow visor coming off in a storm and letting water in that caused the ship to sink and why would the JAIC then go to the trouble of concocting a fraudulent investigation and report that affirmed that false story?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Because he was advised very early on that the whole thing was a botch up. The Russians warned the UK and Sweden to stop smuggling former Soviet military/space program secrets on the passenger ferry Estonia at least twice. Bildt would have known immediately this was hugely politcal and embarrassing so he did what Clinton and the US government has always done in these situations and that is to label the whole thing 'classified' meaning that anyone asking for information can be refused acknowledgement that there is any information to be had on the grounds of 'national security'.
Why would an accidental sinking of the Estonia by a leftover WWII unexploded mine be "hugely political and embarrassing" but an accidental sinking of the Estonia by a failing bow visor not be such that it's worth the Swedish government's while going to the byzantine lengths to cover up the former story and railroad an investigation into coming up with the latter cover story?

Remember that I asked you about "an unexploded leftover WWII mine", i.e. an accident. You're answering an entirely different scenario involving sabotage, which I didn't ask about.

Last edited by JesseCuster; 19th September 2021 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:33 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The crew managed to nip into warm clothing and survivor suits sharpishly so why wouldn't they have ensured their NMT's weren't likewise safe and waterproofed. After all, they managed to find their way to life rafts tout suite despite their 'poor training'.
Their training was obviously poor but none existent.
Anyone with a crew ticket will have done training in abandoning a ship. They will know how to use an immersion suit, how to put a raft canister in to the water, how to right it, how to get aboard it etc.


I would expect the actual sailing crew and engineers to have more training than the domestic and passenger side crew but all of them will have had some level of training in emergency procedures to get a job onboard.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:34 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wear and tear damage doesn't cancel out damage that occurred pre-sinking.


The Arikas team clearly states there is a large hole which is quite separate from the geologically-consistent deformations to be expected after 26 years.


ERR. News
Where is this damage? W have seen nothing other than the hole above the waterline already discussed.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:36 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Then it is a pity Sillaste never mentioned this key point when first interviewed 28 September 1994. Clearly, it was not at the forefront of his mind. And he was there, unlike Bildt.

It seems obvious to me that crew would be supplied with proper communications equipment whilst out at sea. Many passengers said when they rang up their next of kin to say they had survived, their kin were very surprised as the accident hadn't even been on the news yet or hadn't seen the news. So if the passengers rang home then why wouldn't the crew ring in to their employers?
What 'communications equipment' do you think a crew are supplied with?
Some may have had their own mobile phones but the only 'communications equipment' supplied would be the ship's own radio equipment.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:39 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is not something that has been revealed to the public. Of course the Swedish navy immediately did its own investigation. The results of that naturally are a state secret.
If it is secret how do you know about it?

What is your evidence for this secret Swedish navy investigation?.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:40 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It seems obvious to me that crew would be supplied with proper communications equipment whilst out at sea. Many passengers said when they rang up their next of kin to say they had survived, their kin were very surprised as the accident hadn't even been on the news yet or hadn't seen the news.
Are you suggesting that the crew, when abandoning a sinking ship, took the ship's communication equipment with them, all the way to shore and to hospital, and then used the ship's communication equipment to contact their employers? Seriously?

Quote:
So if the passengers rang home then why wouldn't the crew ring in to their employers?
In the immediate aftermath of "facing death in the face" (your words), you're suggesting that the crew made the decision to phone their employers? People phone their loved ones and immediate family in those situations to let them know they're safe, then don't phone their employers to discuss the details of how the disaster happened.

And do you have any evidence that the crew actually did that? Where's your source, citation and proper reference for this idea that the crew called their employers after the rescue? Remember, your posts are sourced, cited and properly referenced.

Last edited by JesseCuster; 19th September 2021 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 19th September 2021, 04:47 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A good journalist does his or her homework. That means researching previous newspaper articles.
I don't know what you're trying to prove.d

Immediately after an accident, when there is a paucity of evidence regarding the cause, a reporter is not there to judge the credibility of an authority giving his opinion. The opinion itself is newsworthy.

That the comments from an authority for the ferry company appeared in a newspaper is not evidence that what the authority said is credible. Duh.

Your refusal to accept this obvious fact is embarrassing.
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