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Old 19th September 2021, 07:52 AM   #561
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
This is the stuff you claim arrived with a military escort. Which military? Not Sweden's I suppose.
Someone higher up that than the democratic Swedish government (i.e., the Intelligence Chiefs, probably Uwe Victorin, who gave Kenneth Svensson, Y64, his medal [who saved nine but was downsized to one]) instructed Swedish Customs to let the smuggled cargo through uninspected. A customs officer was curious and insisted on inspecting two lots of such cargo 14th and 20th September 1994 (he was on leave 28 Sept. 1994) and claims he saw electronic equipment. The military escort would obviously have been that provided by the persons who ordered the stuff.
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:52 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not at all. It is the same for any topic. Some people have more interest in finding out more than others.

What intrigues me is why posters are so upset about people asking questions about the Estonia disaster. Why should you care or find it threatening?

1) Why on Earth would you think that anyone finds your antics "threatening"?

2) I'd suggest that people care because they believe in the principles of critical thinking, rational & evidence-based analysis, and the scientific method. When those people see certain claims (here: your claims) riding roughshod over these principles, pushback and logic are the natural reactions.
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:54 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The shaking and vibrating that so many of the survivors relate is quite typical of an explosion aftershock.
What is your evidence for this?
What is your experience with explosions aboard a ship?
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:54 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What were the watch hours on the Estonia?

Was it at the half way point of the journey? why would that be important?

Was it the 'last point' it was in international waters? why is that important?
1:00am EET.

In International waters anyone is free to schlepp around unchallenged.
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:56 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Israel seems to have been dropped from the list.
That is Jutta Rabe's claim.
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:57 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Not that the cellphones really matter, but are immersion suits watertight?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Yes, they are designed to keep you dry and buoyant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_suit

One of the biggest manufacturers is based just a few miles from where I live. they made my diving Dry Suit too.

https://typhoon-int.co.uk/
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:59 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not at all. It is the same for any topic. Some people have more interest in finding out more than others.

What intrigues me is why posters are so upset about people asking questions about the Estonia disaster. Why should you care or find it threatening?
It's not the asking questions it's the inventing answers that is the problem.
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:59 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You are the one that offered the analogy.

If it was a component not tested it would not be picked up.

A part can pass an MOT test and fail afterwards.
Why do you think cars with valid test certificates break down?

Same applies to ships or aircraft.
A test only tells you that the thing tested was compliant at the time of the test.
But if it was in poor condition due to poor maintenance (for example, balding tyres, leaking oil, worn brake pads) how can it pass an M.O.T. even if these issues only cause an accident afterwards. The person carrying out the inspection would be grossly negligent to pass the vehicle as roadworthy.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:00 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was you who cast aspersions on Professor Amdahl's expertise...
No. I said there were problems with his findings as expressed in connection with Evertsson's film. I went into considerable detail about what those problems were, from the point of view of someone else who is also an expert in modeling and reconstructing collisions, and who has done so professionally. But when it became apparent you didn't have the qualifications to see what the problems were, it became fruitless to debate it with you any further.

That's when you started telling us we had to accept his claims because he was so well qualified, regardless of what we thought the errors in those claims might be.

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...and thus his qualifications became relevant: he is (a) an expert in marine collisions - he has investigated them first-hand, he knows what they look like; he knows how to do the calculations and (b) he has no dog in this fight...
I don't have a dog in this fight either. Amdahl's qualifications were never in question. However, it requires more than just a review of his qualifications to establish that he is correct in this particular case. But now, just as then, that's all you can do. You recite what you think his qualifications are, and you think that's sufficient to overcome all questions.

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...he is Norwegian and thus has no bias conscious or unconscious one way or another.
Why does his nationality matter?

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The JAIC never even considered the possibility of a collision - despite the huge hole in the starboard...
You've failed to convince anyone there is evidence the hole was present and visible when the initial collection of data occurred.

My point in bringing up Amdahl was to ask you reconcile his claims with those of Johanson from Estline. You tell us we must respect Johanson as an expert in Baltic shipping when he tells us a sea mine was a plausible explanation. But you previously told us we had to respect Amdahl as an expert in ship collisions when he tells us the injury to Estonia is consistent with collision damage. Both cannot be true. But instead of picking one of those two and sticking with it, the only point you manage to eke out of that minestrone of expert opinion is that it's just one more way the designated enemy was wrong. You simply can't demonstrate the ability to think in terms that rise above vilifying the initial investigation. Every affirmative conspiracy theory you espouse exists only to show how wrong someone else was, not to establish what actually happened instead. Your answer to whether it was a mine or a minisub never goes beyond, "the JAIC covered it up."

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so IMV you err when you claim it did its job properly and thoroughly.
I made no such claim. You're the one claiming affirmatively that the JAIC investigation was flawed in various ways. But the flaws you identify lack evidence in their favor. Pointing out that your attacks on it lack substance is not the same as making an affirmative claim that the reverse must be true.

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I don't stamp my feet because I could not care less whether people agree with me or not.
The length of this thread and the majority of its content are evidence that you absolutely cannot abide being disagreed with.

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...grilling them on whether they ever studied physics or advanced rocket science and space aerodynamics to shut them down.
That's the voir dire that allows us to determine whether you know what you're talking about or not on the subjects you raise, or which are raised by others because they are relevant. Of course I never required you to understand "advanced rocket science." I'll let the claim about "space aerodynamics" speak for itself. The only thing I ever asked you about was basic Newtonian dynamics. You assured us you were well versed in it, having had "five years" of instruction. Whereupon I asked you a few simple, elementary questions having to do with Amdahl's findings. Your attempt to answer them, and thus to determine for yourself whether Amdahl's findings were defensible, failed miserably.

If you are unable to see what the flaws are in Prof. Amdahl's findings, as Evertsson reported them, then you are simply not equipped to debate them, and not in a position to demand that others, who are better versed than you on the subject, accept claims contrary to their own knowledge in lieu of such a debate. Instead of acknowledging that gracefully, you stamp your feet -- just as you did in the bulk of the paragraph above that I deleted in my reply. You simply cannot allow your critics to be correct to any degree, and you devolve into emotionally-charged argumentation when it appears that is the case.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:00 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is likely MI6, KSI and CIA never anticipated that the Russians would ruthlessly sink the ship killing near on 1,000 people.
But you say that it was being escorted.

If they weren't anticipating the ship being attacked, why was it escorted?

What was the point of the escort if it made no difference to the sinking?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:02 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All the reports say the hole is only partly above the waterline. You can clearly see a towel wedged in the space where the designated the swimming pool and sauna area is. The swimming pool was on deck 0. Definitely in the hull, well below the waterline.
We went through this at great length, it is not below the waterline.
You post pictures that show it is not below the waterline.

Do we have to go through it all again?
How do you deduce that the hole is where the swimming pool and sauna are located from that photo?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:03 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What 'military precision'?
Ensuring the vessel would not reach its destination.


There have been plenty of Herald of Free Enterprise scenarios in which ar ferries limped home or sank hours later.

This one sank fast.

It almost certainly was carrying smuggled Russian state secrets.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:03 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Someone higher up that than the democratic Swedish government (i.e., the Intelligence Chiefs, probably Uwe Victorin, who gave Kenneth Svensson, Y64, his medal [who saved nine but was downsized to one]) instructed Swedish Customs to let the smuggled cargo through uninspected. A customs officer was curious and insisted on inspecting two lots of such cargo 14th and 20th September 1994 (he was on leave 28 Sept. 1994) and claims he saw electronic equipment. The military escort would obviously have been that provided by the persons who ordered the stuff.
So, stuff escorted to the docks by the military. Not the Swedes. Clearly not the Russians. I'm going to guess they were Estonian. And the stuff never arrived in Sweden as it sank.

I still don't think you have given Bildt any motive to just make up a reason for the sinking. Nobody was going to blame him. He had no reason to deflect criticism as there wasn't going to be any.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:05 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But there are lots of mines in the region of Utö, where the vessel sank. Johanson knew about the WWII mines. You did not.
there is no evidence for mines in the shipping lanes.

We know there are mines remaining in the Baltic.

there are mines remaining in the North Sea and English Channel.

No ships have been sunk by a mine in the Baltic or North Sea since WW2.

If a German Naval Mine had hit the Estonia and detonated the damage would be obvious. there would be an entire part of the hull missing.
There would be reports of a huge explosion, not just a few 'bangs'

You have no idea of the size of explosion or damage that would be done.

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Old 19th September 2021, 08:05 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But there are lots of mines in the region of Utö, where the vessel sank. Johanson knew about the WWII mines. You did not.

Yes Vixen. We all know there were/are sea mines scattered around the Baltic Sea.

But you consistently refuse to take on board the fact that a) every mine (plus all other military ordnance in the water) that was anywhere near the recognised shipping lanes was cleared several decades ago, meaning that b) as a result, not one single commercial (or military) ship sailing in the Baltic Sea had been involved in an explosive collision with a mine in all of those decades leading up to 1994 (and, as it happens, right up to the present day).

And since you're pointing out - correctly - that Johanson knew about the presence of UXMs (etc) in the Baltic Sea...... well, you must then also confront the matter of whether or not Johanson knew that no ship - in all the tens of thousands of journeys undertaken within the Baltic Sea in the fifty years since the end of WWII - had ever been damaged or lost due to a mine explosion. Personally, I'd find it very hard to believe that a person in his position, with his experience, would not have known that the danger posed by mines etc in the Baltic Sea was so minimal as to be entirely negligible. And if that's the case, it immediately casts serious aspersions upon the sincerity of his "a mine might have sunk it" claim. See?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:06 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Putin was head of the KGB in 1994?
Putin was KGB Head in 1991 when the Soviet Union fell and the Head of the newly formed Russian spy agency as from that date.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:10 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
1:00am EET.

In International waters anyone is free to schlepp around unchallenged.
Did the watch change at 1 or midnight? How do you know this?

In international waters you are not allowed to sink ships.

If you are going to sink a ship using a torpedo or explosives aboard the ship etc do you think it makes any difference where you do it?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:10 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No it didn't. It stated that no individual could be held responsible for what caused the ship to sink that night. And that's correct: this incident wasn't the product of human error on the night.

But that's a very different matter from inferring that the report didn't ascribe blame at all. Rather, it (obviously) blamed flaws in the design and construction of the bow visor/door mechanisms, and it also blamed a pattern of poor maintenance and inspection of this critical bow section. The blame in this case is corporate rather than personal. In certain jurisdictions - including England & Wales - there would very probably have been corporate manslaughter charges brought against the owner and the designer/constructor of the ship.
How do you know those nine 'missing' Estonian crew, including the second captain Piht, Chief Engineer Lembit and Chief Medical Officer Bogdanov, were not 'disappeared' by the Swedes/USA to face top secret charges of crimes against humanity? It 'disappeared' two Egyptian terrorists in 2000.

Just sayin'?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:11 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not at all. It is the same for any topic. Some people have more interest in finding out more than others.
Your plan of action as evidenced in this thread is absolutely guaranteed not to get to the bottom of anything. You rush simultaneously in several contradictory directions, with little understanding of what any of them requires or entails. The only common element seems to be a foundational belief that one previous investigation was a cover-up. If all you can manage is hysterical flight, in any direction, from that arbitrary starting point, you will never find out anything.

You've been given the opportunity in this thread to be taught by experts in many of the subjects you've raised in connection with your claims. Instead you've relied upon your own expertise, which on some points is demonstrably mediocre, or your childlike faith in carefully selected expert declarations. You don't credit your critics with having any more capacity than you to understand the issues -- and typically far, far less. Your approach is clearly not a hunger to find out; it's an expression of satiation with your own knowledge.

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What intrigues me is why posters are so upset about people asking questions about the Estonia disaster. Why should you care or find it threatening?
Some people are interested not only in finding the right answers to questions, but in finding them in the right ways. There are questions designed to reveal answers. But then there are questions that do nothing more than stir up meaningless suspicion, almost always for ulterior purposes. I consider it part of being a skeptic to help determine which is which.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:12 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But if it was in poor condition due to poor maintenance (for example, balding tyres, leaking oil, worn brake pads) how can it pass an M.O.T. even if these issues only cause an accident afterwards. The person carrying out the inspection would be grossly negligent to pass the vehicle as roadworthy.
Again.

A car can pass an MOT but one of the tested components can fail afterwards.

A tyre is tested as compliant on the day of the test as are brake pads.

That is no guarantee they will not fail afterwards.

Why do you fail to see this?

It is the same with a ship or aircraft. Systems that are tested are only compliant at the time of the test.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:12 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
So what? If he knew in advance that stolen military hardware was going to be loaded onto a ferry he could have intercepted it before it left Estonia. In what way is that less plausible than sinking the ferry at sea in a storm by some unidentified means?
Russia had no jurisdiction, military power or authority in Estonia in 1994.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:14 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The JAIC never looked at anything else other than the bow visor. They devoted hundreds of pages as to its specifications.
That has nothing to do with what I said and the post of yours I responded. I think you're pathologically incapable of following the discussion.

You said that the Swedish government rushed to say that no-one was to blame for the Estonia disaster, and when asked for evidence, you said that the JAIC report said no-one is to blame.

So I asked you, given that there was 3 years between the disaster and the publication of the JAIC report, how is that evidence if a rush to a claim that no-one was to blame.

Are you even aware of how often and how flagrantly you quote people's questions, only to talk about something else?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:14 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Ensuring the vessel would not reach its destination.


There have been plenty of Herald of Free Enterprise scenarios in which ar ferries limped home or sank hours later.

This one sank fast.

It almost certainly was carrying smuggled Russian state secrets.


Ships sink every day, on average around 200 ships a year.
Some sink slow, some sink fast, it depends on the ship and the conditions.

Some sink so quickly they don't get a mayday off at all and the entire crew is lost.

Estonia is not special.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:15 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The hole is very obviously across the divide in the blue and white paint scheme. Photos of the ship show that is well above the waterline. Do you disagree?
The vertical part is four metres high. That is over twelve feet. In the photos, this looks small but in fact the gap is 1.2m which is just over three feet, which is a sizeable gap!
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:16 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Putin was KGB Head in 1991 when the Soviet Union fell and the Head of the newly formed Russian spy agency as from that date.
And he was so incompetent that when he learned that ex-Soviet military equipment was being sold on the black market he devised an inept plan where, instead of trying to intercept the gang and round them up, he would instead sink a ferry carrying one consignment. Because that would stop the trade, right? Without that particular ferry there would be absolutely no way to transport black market goods from Estonia and the trade would just stop.

This dunderheaded plot isn't quite the cunning Putin's reputation was built on, is it?

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Old 19th September 2021, 08:17 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am betting that Meek's team will almost certainly have looked up the possibility of a mine being the culprit for the shocking disaster.
Your recitations of what you think must have happened are not evidence.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:18 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The vertical part is four metres high. That is over twelve feet. In the photos, this looks small but in fact the gap is 1.2m which is just over three feet, which is a sizeable gap!
In whose opinion?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:19 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The vertical part is four metres high. That is over twelve feet. In the photos, this looks small but in fact the gap is 1.2m which is just over three feet, which is a sizeable gap!
But above the waterline and too small to sink the Estonia so quickly and certainly too small to be caused by a torpedo or mine, and in the wrong place to have been caused by a submarine ramming it.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:19 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Russia had no jurisdiction, military power or authority in Estonia in 1994.
They hadn't any in Salisbury a few years ago either. Didn't stop them.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:21 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The shaking and vibrating that so many of the survivors relate is quite typical of an explosion aftershock.
How many ships have you been on that suffered explosions?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:21 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
But you say that it was being escorted.

If they weren't anticipating the ship being attacked, why was it escorted?

What was the point of the escort if it made no difference to the sinking?
Formality? I wouldn't know. However, fact is, Bildt seems to have known about the accident straight away.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:21 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The vertical part is four metres high. That is over twelve feet. In the photos, this looks small but in fact the gap is 1.2m which is just over three feet, which is a sizeable gap!
Still above the water line. Is it your claim that towels were not permitted in cabins and had to be stowed down on whatever deck the pool was on?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:23 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Did the watch change at 1 or midnight? How do you know this?

In international waters you are not allowed to sink ships.

If you are going to sink a ship using a torpedo or explosives aboard the ship etc do you think it makes any difference where you do it?
Silver Linde says so in his JAIC testimony.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:26 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Formality? I wouldn't know. However, fact is, Bildt seems to have known about the accident straight away.
He was the Prime Minister.

People tell him things.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:26 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Formality? I wouldn't know. However, fact is, Bildt seems to have known about the accident straight away.
You imagine car ferries might be escorted by navy submarines as a formality. That may be a new level of weirdness.

If a country's Prime Minister is told straight away when a ship that's due to arrive there has in fact sunk in a storm, what part of that surprises you?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:27 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Silver Linde says so in his JAIC testimony.
Says what about what?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:27 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
That has nothing to do with what I said and the post of yours I responded. I think you're pathologically incapable of following the discussion.

You said that the Swedish government rushed to say that no-one was to blame for the Estonia disaster, and when asked for evidence, you said that the JAIC report said no-one is to blame.

So I asked you, given that there was 3 years between the disaster and the publication of the JAIC report, how is that evidence if a rush to a claim that no-one was to blame.

Are you even aware of how often and how flagrantly you quote people's questions, only to talk about something else?

I'll stop attempting to answer your questions, then, given you have zero respect for these attempts. 'No good deed goes unpunished'.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:29 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you know those nine 'missing' Estonian crew, including the second captain Piht, Chief Engineer Lembit and Chief Medical Officer Bogdanov, were not 'disappeared' by the Swedes/USA to face top secret charges of crimes against humanity?
Whose hypothesis is it that members of the Estonia's crew might have been disappeared by the Swedes or the US in order to face top secret charges of crimes against humanity?

You've been quite adamant in this thread that the fantastical scenarios that you're spinning yarns about aren't yours but that you're merely the messenger, reporting on what others have said and what is reported in the news.

So why haven't you included a source, cite or proper reference for the origin of this scenario, given that you have told us that your posts are sourced, cited and properly referenced?
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:32 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
And he was so incompetent that when he learned that ex-Soviet military equipment was being sold on the black market he devised an inept plan where, instead of trying to intercept the gang and round them up, he would instead sink a ferry carrying one consignment. Because that would stop the trade, right. Without that particular ferry there would be absolutely no way to transport black market goods from Estonia and the trade would just stop.

This dunderheaded plot isn't quite the cunning Putin his reputation was built on, is it?
This was not some 'gang', this was the Swedish government on behalf of the CIA, allegedly. Sweden has a very sizeable navy and military. Russia was broke in 1991 and even in 1994 all that was left was an elite core of ex-speznats, still fiercely loyal to the Old Fatherland and dreams of Soviet military might. However, despite the Soviet Union having fallen, these guys were still extremely highly skilled. That ship was not brought down by a couple of amateur terrorists, as with the USS Cole.
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Old 19th September 2021, 08:35 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
But above the waterline and too small to sink the Estonia so quickly and certainly too small to be caused by a torpedo or mine, and in the wrong place to have been caused by a submarine ramming it.
That is not what the experts say.

Indeed, three sovereign nations have amended the Estonia Treaty to allow for this very hole in the starboard to be investigated. This would not happen unless they thought it of significance.

So your claim 'it is too small and above the waterline' is misconceived and ill-informed.
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