IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Closed Thread
Old 19th September 2021, 08:36 AM   #601
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,542
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop
But you say that it was being escorted.

If they weren't anticipating the ship being attacked, why was it escorted?

What was the point of the escort if it made no difference to the sinking?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Formality? I wouldn't know.
You said that the reason the Estonia would have been escorted instead of merely being tracked by radar was because radar wasn't up to the task.

So when further questioned on what the actual purpose of the escorting submarine would have been, given that it did nothing to actually protect the Estonia from a (claimed) attack by a Russian submarine, your answer is

"Formality? I wouldn't know."

Why on earth would Sweden go to the trouble of having one of their navy's submarines escort the Estonia as merely a "formality" as opposed to it actually providing some sort of protection or whatever to the Estonia, as you previously indicated was its purpose?

Your inability to remember your previous claims in this thread is just staggering. It's as bad as your inability to answer the questions you quote before rambling on about something else.
JesseCuster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:36 AM   #602
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,701
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
They hadn't any in Salisbury a few years ago either. Didn't stop them.
There are many ways to skin a cat.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:39 AM   #603
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,701
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Still above the water line. Is it your claim that towels were not permitted in cabins and had to be stowed down on whatever deck the pool was on?
The photo shown is of the swimming pool area.

As you can see, the swimming pool is way below the waterline.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg viking sally 2.jpg (50.3 KB, 12 views)
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:40 AM   #604
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,548
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The JAIC never looked at anything else other than the bow visor. They devoted hundreds of pages as to its specifications.

That's probably because it was quickly apparent - to people who are properly qualified & experienced at this sort of thing - that 1) the bow visor had failed and 2) the failure of the bow visor was the proximate cause of the chain of events that led directly to the loss of the ship.

Dontcha think?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:41 AM   #605
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,701
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Says what about what?
Says he changed watch at 1:00 EET, when he came on duty.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:41 AM   #606
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,542
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I'll stop attempting to answer your questions.
The problem is that you're not attempting to answer my questions. You're quoting my questions, and then talking about something else.

You've been called out on this many times by many posters including myself.

Spare me your indignation.
JesseCuster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:42 AM   #607
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,941
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is not what the experts say.

Indeed, three sovereign nations have amended the Estonia Treaty to allow for this very hole in the starboard to be investigated. This would not happen unless they thought it of significance.
You have no idea why they consider it "of significance."

Quote:
So your claim 'it is too small and above the waterline' is misconceived and ill-informed.
Nonsense. The position of the hole is a matter of observable fact. The capacity of the hole to admit seawater is a matter of straightforward flood-rate computations. In contrast, you're second-guessing those who are conducting the new investigation, imagining that their reasons must be the same as your reasons.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:42 AM   #608
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,536
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is not what the experts say.

Indeed, three sovereign nations have amended the Estonia Treaty to allow for this very hole in the starboard to be investigated. This would not happen unless they thought it of significance.

So your claim 'it is too small and above the waterline' is misconceived and ill-informed.
Which 'experts'?

You can see with your own eyes the size of the hole and that it is above the waterline.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:43 AM   #609
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,536
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
You said that the reason the Estonia would have been escorted instead of merely being tracked by radar was because radar wasn't up to the task.

So when further questioned on what the actual purpose of the escorting submarine would have been, given that it did nothing to actually protect the Estonia from a (claimed) attack by a Russian submarine, your answer is

"Formality? I wouldn't know."

Why on earth would Sweden go to the trouble of having one of their navy's submarines escort the Estonia as merely a "formality" as opposed to it actually providing some sort of protection or whatever to the Estonia, as you previously indicated was its purpose?

Your inability to remember your previous claims in this thread is just staggering. It's as bad as your inability to answer the questions you quote before rambling on about something else.
I thought it was an accident with the escorting sub that sank the Estonia?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:44 AM   #610
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,536
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The photo shown is of the swimming pool area.

As you can see, the swimming pool is way below the waterline.
How do you know it is of the swimming pool?

It doesn't matter where the swimming pool is if the hole is above the waterline.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:45 AM   #611
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,536
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Says he changed watch at 1:00 EET, when he came on duty.
I thought the attack was at midnight?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:45 AM   #612
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,548
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Ensuring the vessel would not reach its destination.


There have been plenty of Herald of Free Enterprise scenarios in which ar ferries limped home or sank hours later.

This one sank fast.

It almost certainly was carrying smuggled Russian state secrets.

My my. You're so far down the rabbit hole!

Do you know how long it took HOFE to sink? I do. It took less than two minutes.

You don't know what you're talking about.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:45 AM   #613
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,941
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The photo shown is of the swimming pool area.

As you can see, the swimming pool is way below the waterline.
The position of the hole with respect to the waterline can be deduced from the ship's exterior markings. It is not at all well below the waterline.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:46 AM   #614
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,548
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you know those nine 'missing' Estonian crew, including the second captain Piht, Chief Engineer Lembit and Chief Medical Officer Bogdanov, were not 'disappeared' by the Swedes/USA to face top secret charges of crimes against humanity? It 'disappeared' two Egyptian terrorists in 2000.

Just sayin'?

Oh bloody hell. Ludicrous.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:49 AM   #615
junkshop
Critical Thinker
 
junkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Under the bed. Whose bed, you ask? That would be telling...sleep tight.
Posts: 455
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
The problem is that you're not attempting to answer my questions. You're quoting my questions, and then talking about something else.

You've been called out on this many times by many posters including myself.

Spare me your indignation.
Seconded
__________________
Not a Cockney.
junkshop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:53 AM   #616
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,941
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
The problem is that you're not attempting to answer my questions. You're quoting my questions, and then talking about something else.

You've been called out on this many times by many posters including myself.

Spare me your indignation.
Agreed. Vixen has many times quoted my posts only to argue a completely different issue in the response.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 08:54 AM   #617
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,548
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This was not some 'gang', this was the Swedish government on behalf of the CIA, allegedly. Sweden has a very sizeable navy and military. Russia was broke in 1991 and even in 1994 all that was left was an elite core of ex-speznats, still fiercely loyal to the Old Fatherland and dreams of Soviet military might. However, despite the Soviet Union having fallen, these guys were still extremely highly skilled. That ship was not brought down by a couple of amateur terrorists, as with the USS Cole.

You're right. That ship was "brought down" by the bow visor failing, pulling the bow ramp out of position, which allowed extreme volumes of seawater to flood the vehicle deck, which in turn fatally affected the ship's stability and buoyancy.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 09:00 AM   #618
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,187
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This was not some 'gang', this was the Swedish government on behalf of the CIA, allegedly. Sweden has a very sizeable navy and military. Russia was broke in 1991 and even in 1994 all that was left was an elite core of ex-speznats, still fiercely loyal to the Old Fatherland and dreams of Soviet military might. However, despite the Soviet Union having fallen, these guys were still extremely highly skilled. That ship was not brought down by a couple of amateur terrorists, as with the USS Cole.
No. In that imagined scenario the Swedish government would have been the customers, not the thieves or their fences or smugglers.

Those highly skilled patriotic Spetsnaz would have been just the people needed to intercept a convoy of stolen gear before it got out of the country, and to kill the treacherous smugglers too. That's the sort of operation they might see the purpose of and get behind, rather than sinking a ship and killing a thousand innocent people to destroy a couple of truckloads of stuff.

Indeed, if they managed to get some of their own people onto the Estonia, destroying the trucks, rather than the entire ship, makes more sense.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 09:03 AM   #619
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,187
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The photo shown is of the swimming pool area.

As you can see, the swimming pool is way below the waterline.
That doesn't address my question. Have you any reason at all to think the object you say is a towel was not from some cabin at that height in the ship?

Knowing that the pool is on a lower deck does not magically move the damage down to the waterline.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 09:05 AM   #620
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,187
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are many ways to skin a cat.
Seems like some are absurdly elaborate and involve collateral damage like killing the thousand people nearest the cat.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 09:11 AM   #621
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,941
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This was not some 'gang', this was the Swedish government on behalf of the CIA, allegedly. Sweden has a very sizeable navy and military. Russia was broke in 1991 and even in 1994 all that was left was an elite core of ex-speznats, still fiercely loyal to the Old Fatherland and dreams of Soviet military might. However, despite the Soviet Union having fallen, these guys were still extremely highly skilled. That ship was not brought down by a couple of amateur terrorists, as with the USS Cole.
You're missing the point of the question. Conspiracy reasoning often starts from the observed events and works backwards to a hypothesized need or cause. The event in question -- whether the assassination of a leader, the destruction of a building, or the depopulation of the planet -- is postured as the necessary outcome of someone needing to solve some problem. But if we reason forward instead, postulating the hypothetical need as the premise, and evaluate the events as a putatively workable solution to meet that need, it usually becomes apparent that the plan is not the best way to solve the problem, and often incurs additional complications that any competent person would have been able to see and avoid. Or, as in this case, the proposed plan doesn't really solve the problem; it just results in the observable outcome while dragging the conspiracy hypothesis along with it.

The plausibility of the scenario has to be reasoned both forward and backward. It's not enough to simply posit an antecedent whose only virtue is producing the consequent. It has to be the most parsimonious antecedent in other respects.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 09:28 AM   #622
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,187
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You're missing the point of the question. Conspiracy reasoning often starts from the observed events and works backwards to a hypothesized need or cause. The event in question -- whether the assassination of a leader, the destruction of a building, or the depopulation of the planet -- is postured as the necessary outcome of someone needing to solve some problem. But if we reason forward instead, postulating the hypothetical need as the premise, and evaluate the events as a putatively workable solution to meet that need, it usually becomes apparent that the plan is not the best way to solve the problem, and often incurs additional complications that any competent person would have been able to see and avoid. Or, as in this case, the proposed plan doesn't really solve the problem; it just results in the observable outcome while dragging the conspiracy hypothesis along with it.

The plausibility of the scenario has to be reasoned both forward and backward. It's not enough to simply posit an antecedent whose only virtue is producing the consequent. It has to be the most parsimonious antecedent in other respects.
Precisely. Vixen's scenario (or at least this one, from the several she's juggling) does not fix Putin's problem.

It wields a sledgehammer to crack a single nut, but does nothing to diminish the nut supply, which could have been more effectively tackled with less wholesale destruction.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 09:39 AM   #623
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,941
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Precisely. Vixen's scenario (or at least this one, from the several she's juggling) does not fix Putin's problem.

It wields a sledgehammer to crack a single nut, but does nothing to diminish the nut supply, which could have been more effectively tackled with less wholesale destruction.
More importantly, it presumes the expertise of the Spetsnaz. It's so obviously an ineffective and clumsy way to solve the presumed problem that it's hard to conceive of it being a plan concocted by experts in spycraft. It's what people mean when they say, "That sounds like a bad spy novel."
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 11:14 AM   #624
Reformed Offlian
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The military precision of it all was Putin and co showing off how clever and efficient they were, without actually claiming responsibility for it.
Putin? In 1994?
Reformed Offlian is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 11:24 AM   #625
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,542
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Putin was KGB Head in 1991 when the Soviet Union fell and the Head of the newly formed Russian spy agency as from that date.
He was? (edit: ninja'd)
JesseCuster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 11:39 AM   #626
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 5,731
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The act of timed explosives is clearly sabotage. The issue of the starboard collision - as it very possibly was - could either be a deliberate ram by, submarine, torpedo head or placed mine to make absolutely sure the vessel would sink as quickly as possible with no hope of rescue (an extremely aggressive act) or as I say, an accidental bump thanks to the unexpected explosives going off at the bow, if there was such an event.

Whichever way one looks at it , it is a highly suspicious 'accident' given the timing, the location and the passenger survivor accounts and Sweden's breakneck speed in rushing to claim it was nobody's fault.
There were no explosives used.

There was no collision with another ship.

Knee-deep water in the car deck caused it to capsize in heavy seas. With the visor gone and the ramp torn open water flooded the ship, which is why it sank so fast.

One of the engineers who escaped said as soon as he saw how deep the water was on the car deck he made his escape because he knew the Estonia would "sink like a rock".

You are trying way too hard to make something out of nothing.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 11:42 AM   #627
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 5,731
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
[Simply tracking something by radar doesn't actually tell you what happens to it.
But it does tell you if there was another ship in the area. A submarine on the surface would show up on radar, and had one collided with Estonia it would have stayed on the surface.

No ships were seen around or near Estonia on radar.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 11:46 AM   #628
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 5,731
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What 'military precision'?
Precision is not a word one can use when discussing Russian military tactics.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 11:54 AM   #629
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 5,731
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not at all. It is the same for any topic. Some people have more interest in finding out more than others.

What intrigues me is why posters are so upset about people asking questions about the Estonia disaster. Why should you care or find it threatening?
Asking questions and making allegations is not the same thing. You are doing to later. With each post you demonstrate almost total lack of knowledge of the subjects you pull into this conversation (explosives, mines, torpedoes, shipboard crew training, espionage, special operations, submarines, surface ships, weather, the ocean, rescue capabilities, human psychology, politics, scuba diving, metallurgy, basic physics, water, gravity, and basic fact-checking).

Once again, nobody posting on this thread is against another investigation.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:03 PM   #630
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 5,731
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All the reports say the hole is only partly above the waterline. You can clearly see a towel wedged in the space where the designated the swimming pool and sauna area is. The swimming pool was on deck 0. Definitely in the hull, well below the waterline.
Why is there no scorching of the paint if it was an explosion?

A towel wedge in the crack suggests water flowing out, not in, or just gravity as the ship lay on its side.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:07 PM   #631
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,047
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The shaking and vibrating that so many of the survivors relate is quite typical of an explosion aftershock. This guy heard a series of three bangs. The ship listing towards starboard would be consistent to a collision on the starboard side. There is no doubt at all the list was to starboard with an interim self correcting slight list upright and then slightly to port before swinging violent again to the right. There was a 10-minute interim in which passengers had time to flee to the upper decks, after which climbing stairs would be very difficult due to the angle. So a collision on the starboard side would be perfectly consistent with a starboard lilt.
I asked you whether anyone reported a starboard collision. You have told me that the list was consistent with such a collision, but that's not what I asked.

And whether it is consistent with such a collision or not isn't all that clear to me. If the list is due to an ingress of water, it wouldn't be immediately after a collision. Furthermore, the ship had been noticeably listing starboard for some time per this witness's account, which could be coincidental but perhaps not. (The coincidence is easily explained by the bow visor theory, since the water would flow into the low side, further increasing the list.)

So, again, did anyone actually say that they believed it was a collision on the starboard side or did you misspeak when you said that they did?
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:09 PM   #632
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,047
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Swedish navy divers. They have the equipment.
Where can I learn about this? Were they assisting in the investigation or was the Navy itself investigating, as you said? Citation, please and thanks.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:12 PM   #633
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,047
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is likely MI6, KSI and CIA never anticipated that the Russians would ruthlessly sink the ship killing near on 1,000 people.
Well, what sort of protection would a sub escort provide then? If they weren't expecting a ruthless attack, then what sort of calamity would be prevented by a submarine?
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:12 PM   #634
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 10,190
Well, I have completed a thorough analysis of all of Vixen's competing and contradictory theories, statements and comments in this thread. In the end result they seem to all cancel each other out and lead to the startling conclusion that a vessel called the MV Estonia never sank. In fact, this vessel, and all the persons claimed to have been aboard, may have never even existed at all. It is all actually a very elaborate ruse conducted by the governments of Russia, Sweden, the USA, the UK, Finland, Estonia, Iceland, Peru, New Zealand, Vanuatu, India, and several others, along with NATO, KADS, and SMERSH, and orchestrated by our very own Vixen, to cover up what they were really doing. Unfortunately, what they were really doing will never be publicly known because the ruse was completely successful. And is still going strong to this very day with the assistance of all the innocent suckers participating in the misdirection perpetuated in this very thread!


You're welcome.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:17 PM   #635
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,451
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Putin was head of the KGB and the newly formed post-Soviet agency as of the time of the accident.
Then why does Putin himself say that he had resigned from the KGB in 1991?
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:19 PM   #636
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 5,731
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Russia had no jurisdiction, military power or authority in Estonia in 1994.
You mean like how they had no jurisdiction, military power, or authority in Georgia, or Crimea?

Seems like there was a pro-Russian infrastructure in those places and other former Communist-Block countries. But whatever.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:19 PM   #637
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,047
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Yes, they are designed to keep you dry and buoyant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_suit

One of the biggest manufacturers is based just a few miles from where I live. they made my diving Dry Suit too.

https://typhoon-int.co.uk/
Thanks, Cap'n. Just one of the many things I don't know about.

Well, not many. Mostly survival suits and creme fraiche. Oh, and I'm rusty on cricket too.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:27 PM   #638
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 5,731
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This was not some 'gang', this was the Swedish government on behalf of the CIA, allegedly. Sweden has a very sizeable navy and military. Russia was broke in 1991 and even in 1994 all that was left was an elite core of ex-speznats, still fiercely loyal to the Old Fatherland and dreams of Soviet military might. However, despite the Soviet Union having fallen, these guys were still extremely highly skilled. That ship was not brought down by a couple of amateur terrorists, as with the USS Cole.
Nothing about this accident suggests Spetsnaz.

If Spetsnaz had been onboard Estonia they would have recovered their stolen state secret Maguffin, and the team that had stolen it would have gone over the side. The Estonia would have reached port, and the Spetsnaz team would have driven to a safehouse and laid low until they could return to MOTHER Russia.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:28 PM   #639
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 34,800
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
But it does tell you if there was another ship in the area. A submarine on the surface would show up on radar, and had one collided with Estonia it would have stayed on the surface.

Wouldn’t it need to leave the surface to strike the Estonia above the water line?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 12:30 PM   #640
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,542
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The shaking and vibrating that so many of the survivors relate is quite typical of an explosion aftershock.
How do you know this? Didn't you say that your post have sources, citations and proper references?
JesseCuster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:34 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.