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Old 16th September 2021, 11:36 AM   #121
Vixen
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yup. No vested interests there at all, noesurree.

(Just like the yard which designed and built the ship having zero vested interest in claiming that the cause of the sinking was nothing whatsoever to do with the design or construction of the ship...)
Er you do know that Estonia was also part owned by the Swedes vis-a-vis Thule & Nordstrom.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:39 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Vixen, you're just repeating yourself now.
Patience is my middle name.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:40 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There was a huge NATO exercise at the time. How come not one of those vessels/aircraft overheard the May Day distress signals?
They were many hundreds of miles away.

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Whilst the crew were pretty hapless, it can't really be blamed on them as there would be no way to evacuate 1,000 within the ten minute time line they had, with about 80% tucked up asleep in their cabins across seven or eight decks. How can a few strong waves twist wrought iron/steel bolts and even if they did, the bow visor was not a plug, so even it did fall off that shouldn't have caused the ship to sink.
If they had started to assemble the passengers at the first indication of trouble they would have stood a better chance.

It was not just a 'few strong waves' you keep saying it was but the ship had over a decade of storms and the bow visor was already faulty.

It was a plug. It was the front of the ship.

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Old 16th September 2021, 11:49 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was certified seaworthy. According to the JAIC report it was seaworthy, evne though the APIRB buous were switched off, the life rafts still had 'Viking Sally' written on them - indicating sheer age - and many of the provisions included in the life rafts were missing. The life jackets had straps that were impossible for an adult to clasp together under the legs/crutch, hence they kept riding up over people's head, yet the vessel was deemed 'seaworthy'.
We just went through the buoys. They are always switched off until activated.

What does the name on the rafts have to do with it? They have a set life in their canisters at which point they are replaced at set intervals, if the ship name changes then the name on the rafts would be changed at their next renewal.
As for 'provisions' they can't be removed from rafts as they are sealed canisters, there is no way to get them out with out opening the raft canister which means the raft is useless and effectively destroyed. What 'provisions' do you think are included in a life raft specified for the Baltic?

Life jackets have been standard for decades. What instruction were the passengers given in putting on the jackets correctly?

If there was a deficiency in the lifesaving equipment then it is the responsibility of the ships owners to replace it.

What you have listed here doesn't seem to be a reason for not issuing a seaworthiness certificate for the ship.

It does speak to the sloppiness of the company and captain though.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:49 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er you do know that Estonia was also part owned by the Swedes vis-a-vis Thule & Nordstrom.

So, now explain how that changes/negates my point in any way whatsoever.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:55 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, Drew Wilson was the source. Very good read.
Drew Wilson was the source for the citation, but not the source for what you claim Meek said in the cited article, aside from the brief irrelevant excerpt. I was asking whether you had read the Meek article, which you clearly had not. Are you aware that it's considered intellectually dishonest to copy footnotes from secondary sources and pretend that you are familiar with the primary source on that basis?
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Old 16th September 2021, 01:09 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Drew Wilson was the source for the citation, but not the source for what you claim Meek said in the cited article, aside from the brief irrelevant excerpt. I was asking whether you had read the Meek article, which you clearly had not. Are you aware that it's considered intellectually dishonest to copy footnotes from secondary sources and pretend that you are familiar with the primary source on that basis?
It seems to me that it's been mentioned a time or two.

Vixen, citing your actual source rather than a source of a source is important. The summary of a newspaper report hasn't the same reliability as the newspaper report itself. It can be misleading, due to normal imprecision, bias or even dishonesty. When you claim that what you're repeating comes from the newspaper, you are giving unwarranted authority and trust to the information.

The same issue occurred when we discussed eyewitness accounts. We don't have the original accounts (or their translations), with rare exceptions, because the Estonia Ferry Disaster site is full of dead links, but we were trying to parse words and infer whether the eyewitnesses were really reporting explosions. Had the site author shared your own sloppiness and biases, he might have done as you did and written "explosion" even though the eyewitnesses did not use that term (with one exception I know of). Little changes like this make a big difference in our reasoning.

So, please, just tell us the source you're actually using. You can say that so-and-so reports that Aftonbladet said such-and-such, but you shouldn't say that Aftonbladet actually said it unless you've seen the article itself.
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Old 16th September 2021, 01:37 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The summary of a newspaper report hasn't the same reliability as the newspaper report itself. It can be misleading, due to normal imprecision, bias or even dishonesty.
It's even more egregious here because Wilson cites to Meek as documentation for the interpretation of sonar images, a topic also evidently covered in the same article. The only information about mines one could glean from Wilson's reference is what's implied in the title. That's completely irresponsible. It's like trying to claim A Farewell to Arms is about amputees, based solely on seeing it cited in another work.

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Old 16th September 2021, 04:16 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It seems to me that it's been mentioned a time or two.

Vixen, citing your actual source rather than a source of a source is important. The summary of a newspaper report hasn't the same reliability as the newspaper report itself. It can be misleading, due to normal imprecision, bias or even dishonesty. When you claim that what you're repeating comes from the newspaper, you are giving unwarranted authority and trust to the information.

The same issue occurred when we discussed eyewitness accounts. We don't have the original accounts (or their translations), with rare exceptions, because the Estonia Ferry Disaster site is full of dead links, but we were trying to parse words and infer whether the eyewitnesses were really reporting explosions. Had the site author shared your own sloppiness and biases, he might have done as you did and written "explosion" even though the eyewitnesses did not use that term (with one exception I know of). Little changes like this make a big difference in our reasoning.

So, please, just tell us the source you're actually using. You can say that so-and-so reports that Aftonbladet said such-and-such, but you shouldn't say that Aftonbladet actually said it unless you've seen the article itself.
Look, phiwum, original sources are gold dust to researchers, especially in history. On any topic there will be several books, maybe hundreds, most of which will be plagiarisms, for example, I spotted an entry in Macmillans Encylcopedia about rhinocerii that was totally incorrect but which was replicated in numerous other later texts. That is how people work. They find a textbook, as in a University 'reading list' and they quote from there. But wait! If you want to do original research, you start from scratch and find your own sources. Original newspaper articles are a gem for the historian. Whilst, yes, newspapers are prone to all kinds of inaccuracies and conjecture, they do provide a first hand account before the spin masters, politicians, newspaper barons and publishing houses (who will only publish historical accounts by first class honours Oxford students in History) put their revision of history interpretation of events on it.

Now, I have done quite a lot of historical research from eclectic resources. Should I do reams of research for the benefit of 'hecklers at the back of the hall' on a chat forum only to get mocked? No, I don't think so!

So, phiwum, state your case as to why you think one should, given I am merely reporting a current affairs topic and not carrying out research.
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:22 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It's even more egregious here because Wilson cites to Meek as documentation for the interpretation of sonar images, a topic also evidently covered in the same article. The only information about mines one could glean from Wilson's reference is what's implied in the title. That's completely irresponsible. It's like trying to claim A Farewell to Arms is about amputees, based solely on seeing it cited in another work.
Really? Or, 'Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears', was literal? Come on, JayUtah, you can do better than that. A Farewell to Arms is obviously about war is it not, except to someone who loves to argue pedantry?

Fact is, Meek did report in the GUARDIAN broadsheet that some CEO at Estlines did opine that it 'might have been a mine' that sank the Estonia in the early days.
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:23 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look, phiwum, original sources are gold dust to researchers, especially in history. On any topic there will be several books, maybe hundreds, most of which will be plagiarisms, for example, I spotted an entry in Macmillans Encylcopedia about rhinocerii that was totally incorrect but which was replicated in numerous other later texts. That is how people work. They find a textbook, as in a University 'reading list' and they quote from there. But wait! If you want to do original research, you start from scratch and find your own sources. Original newspaper articles are a gem for the historian. Whilst, yes, newspapers are prone to all kinds of inaccuracies and conjecture, they do provide a first hand account before the spin masters, politicians, newspaper barons and publishing houses (who will only publish historical accounts by first class honours Oxford students in History) put their revision of history interpretation of events on it.

Now, I have done quite a lot of historical research from eclectic resources. Should I do reams of research for the benefit of 'hecklers at the back of the hall' on a chat forum only to get mocked? No, I don't think so!

So, phiwum, state your case as to why you think one should, given I am merely reporting a current affairs topic and not carrying out research.
You should at least do some minimal checking before you post.
If you post it you own it.
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:38 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
given I am merely reporting a current affairs topic and not carrying out research.
But you're not doing just that. You're overlaying your own theories on top of that topic. You're citing sources in support of those theories without actually doing anything to check the veracity of those sources.

Claiming you are "merely reporting a current affairs topic" is dishonest.
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:41 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look, phiwum, original sources are gold dust to researchers, especially in history. On any topic there will be several books, maybe hundreds, most of which will be plagiarisms, for example, I spotted an entry in Macmillans Encylcopedia about rhinocerii that was totally incorrect but which was replicated in numerous other later texts. That is how people work. They find a textbook, as in a University 'reading list' and they quote from there. But wait! If you want to do original research, you start from scratch and find your own sources. Original newspaper articles are a gem for the historian. Whilst, yes, newspapers are prone to all kinds of inaccuracies and conjecture, they do provide a first hand account before the spin masters, politicians, newspaper barons and publishing houses (who will only publish historical accounts by first class honours Oxford students in History) put their revision of history interpretation of events on it.

Now, I have done quite a lot of historical research from eclectic resources. Should I do reams of research for the benefit of 'hecklers at the back of the hall' on a chat forum only to get mocked? No, I don't think so!

So, phiwum, state your case as to why you think one should, given I am merely reporting a current affairs topic and not carrying out research.
You agree that newspapers are valuable. That's why you illegitimately cite them. You're pretending to use a more valuable source than you really use. It's dishonest.

As far as why you should give accurate citations, well, because that's how discussion works. We don't accept claims on your say so. We want to know where they come from because that's relevant to evaluating them. It's how discussion works.

Hiding your sources is asinine and evidence that you realize they are unreliable. See again the bit about dishonesty.

Sourced material is not buried treasure. Its only value comes from sharing it.

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Old 16th September 2021, 04:55 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look, phiwum...
Look, Vixen. You're copying citations out of secondary sources and pretending that you've read the primary sources. It's dishonest, and it's the hallmark of sloppy, wannabe scholarship.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:01 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Fact is, Meek did report in the GUARDIAN broadsheet that some CEO at Estlines did opine that it 'might have been a mine' that sank the Estonia in the early days.
But you didn't know any of that when you assured us that the reporting of sea mines came from a reputable source that should be trusted more than LondonJohn, or any of the other people who have spoken about sea mines in this thread. Only when someone else did your homework for you did we find out it's the company head trying to spin-doctor the tragedy, handwaving up a "personal opinion" that it's someone else's fault and reaching for a patently absurd explanation that he later had to discard. Meek's reporting doesn't strengthen the case that sea mines could have caused the accident. You completely misrepresented what the report was, because you hadn't read it, but insinuated you had.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:10 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You agree that newspapers are valuable. That's why you illegitimately cite them. You're pretending to use a more valuable source than you really use. It's dishonest.

As far as why you should give accurate citations, well, because that's how discussion works. We don't accept claims on your say so. We want to know where they come from because that's relevant to evaluating them. It's how discussion works.

Hiding your sources is asinine and evidence that you realize they are unreliable. See again the bit about dishonesty.

Sourced material is not buried treasure. Its only value comes from sharing it.

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It was a direct quote from BNS ('Baltic News Service') a perfectly respectable source.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:13 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
But you didn't know any of that when you assured us that the reporting of sea mines came from a reputable source that should be trusted more than LondonJohn, or any of the other people who have spoken about sea mines in this thread. Only when someone else did your homework for you did we find out it's the company head trying to spin-doctor the tragedy, handwaving up a "personal opinion" that it's someone else's fault and reaching for a patently absurd explanation that he later had to discard. Meek's reporting doesn't strengthen the case that sea mines could have caused the accident. You completely misrepresented what the report was, because you hadn't read it, but insinuated you had.
The CEO of Estline, trust me, knows more about the Baltic and its history than any keyboarder on ISF. He and a reputable prize-winning journalist James Meek thought a mine was a genuine possibility as of the time of the incident.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:20 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The CEO of Estline, trust me...
No, I don't trust you. The CEO of Estline was on the cusp of having his company blamed for the worst maritime disaster in recent memory. He's obviously spin-doctoring. In other sources he made the same handwaving allusions to sea mines or rocks, but with no details.

The fact remains that in thousands of passages a year through those waters, no one else has encountered a sea mine. It's a farfetched possibility. You know it. I know it. Johanson knows it. But he's trying to save face.

Quote:
He and a reputable prize-winning journalist James Meek thought a mine was a genuine possibility...
No. Whatever the CEO of Estline says at a time like this is newsworthy, even if it's utter bollocks. You have no evidence that Meek agreed with Johanson. Other articles written by Meek, including the one he wrote the next day after seeing the video footage, are highly critical of the ship's owners and operators and how they operated the vessel, citing sources that attest to that effect.

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Old 16th September 2021, 05:40 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The CEO of Estline ... and a reputable prize-winning journalist James Meek thought a mine was a genuine possibility as of the time of the incident.
This is not true, Vixen. Go back and read the quote that Whoanellie provided. Meek reported what Johanson had claimed, he did not offer an opinion on that claim. There is nothing in what he wrote to suggest that he shared Johanson's view.

ETA: Beaten to the punch by JayUtah. That'll teach me for replying before reading all the posts.
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Old 16th September 2021, 06:19 PM   #140
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Would someone please quote my questions. I seem to be on ignore.
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Old 16th September 2021, 06:30 PM   #141
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Meh... This thread is getting tiresome. It's like a certain poster's postings from that notorious Italian court case thread have had a search and replace done on them and transposed to here. Different thread, same disingenuous techniques.
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Old 16th September 2021, 07:01 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There was a huge NATO exercise at the time. How come not one of those vessels/aircraft overheard the May Day distress signals?

.
This has been covered already. To refresh your memory they were 400 miles away. And what makes you think they didn't hear the distress call? We're not playing this line of "What If?" again.

Quote:
Whilst the crew were pretty hapless, it can't really be blamed on them as there would be no way to evacuate 1,000 within the ten minute time line they had, with about 80% tucked up asleep in their cabins across seven or eight decks.
Sure as hell can be blamed on them. Nobody on that ship knew how fast it would sink, nobody followed any of the basic emergency procedures they were at least briefed on.

And they never inspected the water in the car deck or the bow. Slowing the ship down would have bought time.

So yes, the crew can be blamed.

Quote:
How can a few strong waves twist wrought iron/steel bolts and even if they did, the bow visor was not a plug, so even it did fall off that shouldn't have caused the ship to sink
A few? I've never been to Europe, does your water behave differently than the Pacific? We don't have the Baltic but we do have the Bering Sea. Large fishing vessels sink in storms about every five years because "a few waves" beat them silly.

And thanks to the ship's design, the car ramp was tucked under the hood, and when the hood was knocked off it wrenched open the ramp, opening the car deck to the sea...while the ship sailed at flank speed.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:01 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was a direct quote from BNS ('Baltic News Service') a perfectly respectable source.
What was a direct quote? I'm talking about your practice in general, not just one quote.



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Old 16th September 2021, 08:04 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The CEO of Estline, trust me, knows more about the Baltic and its history than any keyboarder on ISF. He and a reputable prize-winning journalist James Meek thought a mine was a genuine possibility as of the time of the incident.
Meek was reporting what the CEO said. It's newsworthy. That doesn't mean Meek agrees.

The journalist's reputation matters only as evidence that the CEO said it, not as evidence that it was true.

Obviously.

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Old 17th September 2021, 04:14 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, I don't trust you. The CEO of Estline was on the cusp of having his company blamed for the worst maritime disaster in recent memory. He's obviously spin-doctoring. In other sources he made the same handwaving allusions to sea mines or rocks, but with no details.

The fact remains that in thousands of passages a year through those waters, no one else has encountered a sea mine. It's a farfetched possibility. You know it. I know it. Johanson knows it. But he's trying to save face.



No. Whatever the CEO of Estline says at a time like this is newsworthy, even if it's utter bollocks. You have no evidence that Meek agreed with Johanson. Other articles written by Meek, including the one he wrote the next day after seeing the video footage, are highly critical of the ship's owners and operators and how they operated the vessel, citing sources that attest to that effect.

Then as Sweden's Thule & Nordstrom were joint owners, the Swedes, too, as per PM Carl Bildt, were also talking 'utter bollocks' (I didn't know that was an American term) when they said the bow visor is what done it before the vessel was even located and despite early interviewee Sillaste never saying the bow visor was missing when visited in hospital by the three PMs later that morning?


So when a Swede says a thing, it is gospel truth but when Estonian, 'He's just trying to save his own skin', is your message. Nice.
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:15 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Would someone please quote my questions. I seem to be on ignore.
You have already been answered. Please refer back to it.
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:19 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This has been covered already. To refresh your memory they were 400 miles away. And what makes you think they didn't hear the distress call? We're not playing this line of "What If?" again.



Sure as hell can be blamed on them. Nobody on that ship knew how fast it would sink, nobody followed any of the basic emergency procedures they were at least briefed on.

And they never inspected the water in the car deck or the bow. Slowing the ship down would have bought time.

So yes, the crew can be blamed.



A few? I've never been to Europe, does your water behave differently than the Pacific? We don't have the Baltic but we do have the Bering Sea. Large fishing vessels sink in storms about every five years because "a few waves" beat them silly.

And thanks to the ship's design, the car ramp was tucked under the hood, and when the hood was knocked off it wrenched open the ramp, opening the car deck to the sea...while the ship sailed at flank speed.
So how did Sillaste manage to draw a diagram clearly showing the car ramp shut but with water seeping in at the sides (but not the top)? He reproduced this same diagram several times for the benefit of the press and investigators. Likewise, two passengers claimed to have climbed down the car ramp from the outside when the vessel was at a ninety-degree list.

Plenty of car ferries do not have a bow visor, thus it is not essential for keeping water out.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg car ramp as drawn by Sillaste.jpg (38.7 KB, 2 views)
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Last edited by Vixen; 17th September 2021 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:21 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Meek was reporting what the CEO said. It's newsworthy. That doesn't mean Meek agrees.

The journalist's reputation matters only as evidence that the CEO said it, not as evidence that it was true.

Obviously.

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At last it had dawned on you that simply quoting someone as a source does not mean one either agrees, disagrees or even endorses that view. As a reporter, Meek was merely doing his job, which was to go to Tallinn and report on the incident, as I did here, as an important current affairs topic.

Thank you for conceding that in doing so, does not make one a 'conpsiracy theorist'.
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:22 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Then as Sweden's Thule & Nordstrom were joint owners, the Swedes, too, as per PM Carl Bildt, were also talking 'utter bollocks' (I didn't know that was an American term) when they said the bow visor is what done it before the vessel was even located and despite early interviewee Sillaste never saying the bow visor was missing when visited in hospital by the three PMs later that morning?


So when a Swede says a thing, it is gospel truth but when Estonian, 'He's just trying to save his own skin', is your message. Nice.
A bow visor that you admit was already faulty and leaking.
A bow visor that was working loose and not properly investigated.
A bow visor that had already sunk ferries in the past.
A bow visor that was known to be at the scene unlike your proposed mine.

If the ship had hit a mine it would have been immediately obvious, the explosive charge on a sea mine is huge. There would have been a lot more than a Feb banging sounds and a bit of lurching.

How many broken ankles were reported?
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:24 AM   #150
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Quote:
Plenty of car ferries do not have a bow visor, thus it is not essential for keeping water out.
This is a joke I hope?
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:27 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You have already been answered. Please refer back to it.
I can't seem to fid where. Please link to the post or at least give me a post number.

I do recall you saying something that didn't in any way answer my question but was a lot of bluster. Did you mean that post?
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:38 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A bow visor that you admit was already faulty and leaking.
A bow visor that was working loose and not properly investigated.
A bow visor that had already sunk ferries in the past.
A bow visor that was known to be at the scene unlike your proposed mine.

If the ship had hit a mine it would have been immediately obvious, the explosive charge on a sea mine is huge. There would have been a lot more than a Feb banging sounds and a bit of lurching.

How many broken ankles were reported?
What 'bow visor that had already sunk ferries in the past'? Citations needed please, in the plural preferably.

You know as well as I do that impact of detonation depends on how much explosives are used. There are big mines - on the sea bed - and there are small ones that could theoretically, be attached to the side of a vessel.

Think about the sheer expertise involved in sinking this ship so rapidly and efficiently. Unlike the Al-Quaeda suicide bombers loaded with 400lbs - 700lbs of explosives on their small ship and likely suicide vests, when they decided to ram the USS Cole in 2000, a clear couple of amateurs who failed completely to sink the vessel despite blasting a massive hole in Cole's side, many times bigger than that seen on Estonia. If the Estonia was sabotaged then whoever did it was highly skilled in marine matters to a military expert level: not only ensuring that the bow visor and car ramp would be compromised - they didn't stop at just 'blowing off the doors' - they made darn sure the thing would sink by smashing into the starboard either by weapon or by vessel, whilst at the same time blocking all communications to prevent rescue of same and ensuring the ship was in international waters ATT, and even timing it to the stroke of Swedish midnight. If it was sabotage, the perpetrators were not only highly skilled to a professional military level but they also made damn sure the ship would go no further on its route.

Compare and contrast with USS Cole, which managed to limp home.
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:42 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
This is a joke I hope?
I can't see a bow visor on any of these car ferries:

https://www.rivieramm.com/news-conte...peration-55626

https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/nor...pment/8537889/

https://www.alamy.com/car-ferry-emin...e61961400.html

https://www.ship-broker.eu/2-x-doubl...-construction/
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Old 17th September 2021, 05:36 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Then as Sweden's Thule & Nordstrom were joint owners, the Swedes, too, as per PM Carl Bildt, were also talking 'utter bollocks' (I didn't know that was an American term) when they said the bow visor is what done it before the vessel was even located and despite early interviewee Sillaste never saying the bow visor was missing when visited in hospital by the three PMs later that morning?


So when a Swede says a thing, it is gospel truth but when Estonian, 'He's just trying to save his own skin', is your message. Nice.
Sorry, are you accusing those who deny it was a mine of racism? That's cute.

Anyway, I don't recall anyone using the comments of the Swedish co-owners as evidence. Once again, just a stupid argument.

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Old 17th September 2021, 05:37 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You have already been answered. Please refer back to it.
He has received a reply but not an answer.

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Old 17th September 2021, 05:40 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
At last it had dawned on you that simply quoting someone as a source does not mean one either agrees, disagrees or even endorses that view. As a reporter, Meek was merely doing his job, which was to go to Tallinn and report on the incident, as I did here, as an important current affairs topic.

Thank you for conceding that in doing so, does not make one a 'conpsiracy theorist'.
Your theories go beyond reporting into synthesis and novelty. You have a terrible time distinguishing what others have said from your own fanciful inferences.

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Old 17th September 2021, 06:24 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What 'bow visor that had already sunk ferries in the past'? Citations needed please, in the plural preferably.

You know as well as I do that impact of detonation depends on how much explosives are used. There are big mines - on the sea bed - and there are small ones that could theoretically, be attached to the side of a vessel.

Think about the sheer expertise involved in sinking this ship so rapidly and efficiently. Unlike the Al-Quaeda suicide bombers loaded with 400lbs - 700lbs of explosives on their small ship and likely suicide vests, when they decided to ram the USS Cole in 2000, a clear couple of amateurs who failed completely to sink the vessel despite blasting a massive hole in Cole's side, many times bigger than that seen on Estonia. If the Estonia was sabotaged then whoever did it was highly skilled in marine matters to a military expert level: not only ensuring that the bow visor and car ramp would be compromised - they didn't stop at just 'blowing off the doors' - they made darn sure the thing would sink by smashing into the starboard either by weapon or by vessel, whilst at the same time blocking all communications to prevent rescue of same and ensuring the ship was in international waters ATT, and even timing it to the stroke of Swedish midnight. If it was sabotage, the perpetrators were not only highly skilled to a professional military level but they also made damn sure the ship would go no further on its route.

Compare and contrast with USS Cole, which managed to limp home.
You are claiming a sea mine left over from WW2 That means Hundreds of pounds of explosives.
Cole was not in a storm it was stationary and it is a warship, subdivided against damage and with a crew trained to stop flooding.

If a sea mine had exploded against the Estonia the damage would have been massive and below the waterline, not a small hole above it.
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:25 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What point are you trying to make?
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:55 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So when a Swede says a thing, it is gospel truth but when Estonian, 'He's just trying to save his own skin', is your message. Nice.
If you put as much effort into meaningfully participating in this thread as you do into manufacturing these elaborate straw men, the thread would be so much shorter. You really need a new act. This one's worn thin.

Johanson's claim is absurd on its face, and he even qualifies it as his personal opinion. It's fairly clear he didn't have any evidence at the time for it, and that he's just grasping at straws. And from the other coverage of his claim in other media, it seems that no one was really taking him seriously. It has zilch to do with anoyone's nationality, so quit trying to paint me as some kind of racist.

Further, you seem to argue a strange notion that a journalist must endorse whatever he prints as a quotation. No, Meek never endorsed the sea-mine theory. He's merely quoting a newsworthy statement from an important person associated with the incident. You're going to comical lengths to create the illusion that the sea-mine theory was credible at the time and had the support of "reputable" people. It wasn't, it isn't, and it didn't.
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:58 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Compare and contrast with USS Cole, which managed to limp home.
We did. Instead of re-raising the question, why didn't you address the responses you already got on this point?
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