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Old 14th October 2021, 06:16 PM   #521
DevilsAdvocate
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I pretty much agree with this. One other thing Laundrie could be thinking about is, arranging a plea deal with the prosecutor. Turning himself in, making a full confession and agreeing to plead guilty IN EXCHANGE for the prosecutor agreeing to NOT seek the death penalty or a life sentence. Give Laundrie a shot at someday -- even if its decades from now -- regaining his freedom.

If Laundrie wants to roll the dice and plead not guilty and go to trial, he better be prepared to lose big. Wyoming hasn't executed anyone in thirty years but they are a death penalty state.
I don't think that gets them much. This probably doesn't meet any of the required aggravating factors and there is the mitigating factor of no previous criminal history (that we are aware of). There are no inmates in Wyoming on death row. He is not likely to be the first.

I am also not sure whether this would fall under Wyoming or Federal jurisdiction. I think it would be Federal, but not really sure. It has been difficult to find information on that.

It appears jurisdiction may be different in a National Park as opposed to a National Forest. This was right on the border. The van was in a National Forest. The body was across the creek in a National Park.

I get the impression that a National Park would have concurrent jurisdiction. That means a person could be charged for violation of either a Wyoming or Federal offense. My vague understanding is that in the case where there is both a State and Federal law, it defaults to the Federal law. But it looks like even though a National Forest is Federal land, it falls under State jurisdiction except for some Federal laws that are specific to National Forests, which are mostly about protecting the forest.

If this is Federal and he tries to say he had nothing to do with and the jury doesn't buy it, I think they would convict him on 2nd degree murder. I'm not sure if they will be able to prove premeditation. If they do, that would be 1st degree murder and they could seek the death penalty.

If he comes clean, he may be able to say it was "upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion" and get manslaughter. That may be a bit difficult with strangulation. It isn't like getting into an argument and hitting someone over the head with a frying pan. Strangulation takes time. But the defense could use that possibly as a bargaining chip, plus the possibility of a hung jury on reasonable doubt in a case mostly based on circumstantial evidence.

Maybe agree to Murder 2 so that they can say they convicted him of murder but go with maybe 20 years and drop the fraud charges and other likely charges such as evading, unauthorized use of a vehicle, etc. With good behavior he could be out in about 16.5 years.

He would have to make some very difficult decisions about what direction he wants to go.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:57 PM   #522
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Does the fact that the FBI has taken over the search for Laundrie help answer which jurisdiction this is in? Some reports suggest they've done more than that such as taking possession of his cell phone. That may be because the bank fraud charges he is facing now are Federal. All confusing.

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Old 14th October 2021, 07:03 PM   #523
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My understanding is that the Feds will offer technical assistance and other resources to local law enforcement, without necessarily asserting federal jurisdiction.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:16 PM   #524
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Yeah, don't know if we can trust the exact wording of the reporting, but the reporting say the search in Florida has been taken over by the FBI. And, again, the only charges against him right now are Federal.

Actually, now that I think about it, what was Florida doing in the first place? I suppose they were responding to the missing persons report from Gabby's parents? I think that makes sense.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:49 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Does the fact that the FBI has taken over the search for Laundrie help answer which jurisdiction this is in? Some reports suggest they've done more than that such as taking possession of his cell phone. That may be because the bank fraud charges he is facing now are Federal. All confusing.
FBI is involved for a number of reasons.

The search for Gabby was likely on Federal land. The search for Brian could be across states, which would make it Federal. The fraud charges are Federal because they involve interstate commerce (and probably U.S. Banks). The investigation into the homicide is Federal because it likely took place on Federal land (which is at a minimum concurrent jurisdiction).

Local police were at least initially involved because of the missing persons reports. But local police also assist the FBI. And local police can do whatever they want in their own jurisdiction; if they want to do their own search on their own dime, there is nothing stopping them.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:55 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My understanding is that the Feds will offer technical assistance and other resources to local law enforcement, without necessarily asserting federal jurisdiction.
Correct. FBI helps State and local police. State and local police help FBI. In many cases.

FBI is not necessary legally required to do so. State and local police are not necessary legally required to do so. But usually they do.

FBI in some cases has a Memorandum Of Understanding with State and even local authorities to assist with certain things. Usually sharing information data. That isn't technically legally binding, but if one party breaks that MOU, the other party can refuse further assistance. So it is binding in a sense.

Even outside legal requirements or agreements, they can work with each other and often do. It is often in both of their interests to help each other.

FBI can help without being "in charge". Just because they are at a higher government level does not mean that any involvement means that they are in charge.

In terms of the searches at Carlton and related areas, who is "in charge" depends on the search. Local started. FBI took over. It appears local might have then done their own thing. Each search can be controlled by a different agency.

For example, they went out today with cadaver dogs searching along a power line trail. Power lines that run through a forest have trees and brush cleared well away so they don't start fires. I think they were county police. No FBI, even though FBI had previous "taken over" the search there. There were controlled burns at Myakka State Park. I suspect the reason for the search today was a result of a possible planned burn at Carlton along the power lines. They wanted to make sure there was no evidence of remains before doing a burn. Maybe.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:58 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
He found her dead and was afraid of being falsely confused, so he ran away with her stuff because then he wouldn't be falsely accused?
I think he was truly confused.

Yes, he found her dead and panicked and drove home to safety in the van he had been driving for weeks. The van he converted to camper. The van they shared. Paying with the card they shared. The one he always used.

He found her dead. He had no idea what to do. He was afraid. If he calls the cops, they will think he killed her. Don't do that. Get out of there. Get home. Get home as fast as possible. Get help. Talk to a lawyer. Lawyer says don't talk to anybody. Don't talk to anybody.

What would you do in that situation? Wake up in the van and she was gone. Then find her dead across the creek strangled to death. Call the cops? They will accuse of the murder.

Hike somewhere? Do what? Or take the van you have been driving everyday and get home for help. This van that you share. This credit card that you share. Those things belong to some degree to both of them. It is reasonable in that circumstance to at least think that those things were things available for his use.

Not a great story, but far better than those proposed. Prosecution can't (based on what we know) give any evidence to refute that, and it is entirely plausible. Whether jurors will buy it is questionable, but it at least gives them a reasonable plausible story that could establish reasonable doubt. Better than the other stories suggested.
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Old 15th October 2021, 07:20 AM   #528
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A former juror here with my layman's perspective. Several years ago, the first jury I sat on was an assault case. During an argument, a man pulled a gun on the couple he was renting a room from. Throughout the trial, all evidence pointed to this man being the aggressor and guilt seemed pretty assured.

Then during closing arguments, his attorney gave a superb speech. She brought forth a scenario that addressed most of the evidence, put her client in a good light, and shifted the blame toward her client's accuser. It was really a well presented alternative story.

When we got into the deliberation room, we discussed this and if it was reasonable doubt to justify an acquittal. The problem we had was that it was just a story. There was no evidence put forth during the defense case to support it. I understand that the defense does not have to provide proof of innocence, but this new story only came to light at closing argument. When we discussed it, we realized it was mostly, "...this could have happened...". In short, it wasn't reasonable. There was also the realization that if her alternative story was actual reality, then it would have been trivial to present X as evidence. Or to have asked some very basic questions of witnesses to support it.

At the end of day, we all concluded that it was just a story but had no teeth to it. The evidence fit better to the prosecution's argument, and in looking at the facts presented the accused was clearly guilty.

If Laundrie ever goes to trial, given what we know now I think it would be an uphill battle. If he wants to provide an alternate explanation for his actions, then he and his lawyers better start planning for it now. In my anecdote above, the alternative story seemed in hindsight more of a Hail Mary attempt than anything else.
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Old 15th October 2021, 09:08 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I think he was truly confused.
Sorry for the typo.

Quote:
What would you do in that situation? Wake up in the van and she was gone. Then find her dead across the creek strangled to death. Call the cops? They will accuse of the murder.
So I'm in the same situation as Laundrie, with the one difference being I haven't murdered anyone. OK. I have to decide which course of action will make me less suspicious... A) call the police and tell them the truth. Or
B) engage in a series of highly suspicious hitchhiking, fake a text to the victims family to fool them into thinking she's still alive, abandon the body I found and race back home, use her bank card to buy supplies, and then completely disappear from sight and go into hiding (or, possibly, kill myself). I think I'd choose A.
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Old 15th October 2021, 09:18 AM   #530
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I've been in that park many times. The odds of running in to a murderous human in a short space of time is very low. Bears? All the time. Murderous humans? Never.

Yeah, I wouldn't buy that story. Especially when you wound up with her bank card.
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Old 15th October 2021, 09:38 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
So I'm in the same situation as Laundrie, with the one difference being I haven't murdered anyone. OK. I have to decide which course of action will make me less suspicious... A) call the police and tell them the truth. Or
B) engage in a series of highly suspicious hitchhiking, fake a text to the victims family to fool them into thinking she's still alive, abandon the body I found and race back home, use her bank card to buy supplies, and then completely disappear from sight and go into hiding (or, possibly, kill myself). I think I'd choose A.
For anyone stupid enough to do those things, there should be a felony in the spirit of "leaving the scene of an accident" that applies to leaving a murder victim undiscovered and running away. If this is what Laundrie did, I think he should go to jail even if he murdered no one. The amount of grief and effort and expense he created is in itself criminal.

Of course I think he probably did commit the murder, but nonetheless.
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Old 15th October 2021, 09:46 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I've been in that park many times. The odds of running in to a murderous human in a short space of time is very low. Bears? All the time. Murderous humans? Never.
Bears who strangle people? Even less odds.
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Old 15th October 2021, 09:53 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
For anyone stupid enough to do those things, there should be a felony in the spirit of "leaving the scene of an accident" that applies to leaving a murder victim undiscovered and running away. If this is what Laundrie did, I think he should go to jail even if he murdered no one. The amount of grief and effort and expense he created is in itself criminal.

Of course I think he probably did commit the murder, but nonetheless.
I think there has to be more to a felony than simply running away from a dead body.
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Old 15th October 2021, 10:01 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think there has to be more to a felony than simply running away from a dead body.
I think the consequences of doing so should be more serious than they are, though perhaps there are relevant laws I'm not familiar with.

Leaving the scene of an accident can be a felony.
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Old 15th October 2021, 10:42 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I think the consequences of doing so should be more serious than they are, though perhaps there are relevant laws I'm not familiar with.

Leaving the scene of an accident can be a felony.
Don't Good Samaritan laws have something to do with this? Obviously I'm not a lawyer. I don't think I've ever heard of someone getting charged with anything related to it, but I feel like something in there would say a person should call the cops if they find a dead body.
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Old 15th October 2021, 10:48 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Don't Good Samaritan laws have something to do with this? Obviously I'm not a lawyer. I don't think I've ever heard of someone getting charged with anything related to it, but I feel like something in there would say a person should call the cops if they find a dead body.
That's pretty much my feeling. For one thing, what if the person only appears dead, and needs medical attention? You shouldn't be able to just walk away from any fatal or potentially fatal crime scene with no consequence.
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Old 15th October 2021, 10:52 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I think the consequences of doing so should be more serious than they are, though perhaps there are relevant laws I'm not familiar with.

Leaving the scene of an accident can be a felony.
Pretty sure that's in cases where you were involved in the accident, and not just an innocent bystander who didn't want to get involved.
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Old 15th October 2021, 10:57 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Pretty sure that's in cases where you were involved in the accident, and not just an innocent bystander who didn't want to get involved.
There is no scenario where Laundrie was uninvolved here, even if he didn't actually strangle her.
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Old 15th October 2021, 02:20 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I think the consequences of doing so should be more serious than they are, though perhaps there are relevant laws I'm not familiar with.

Leaving the scene of an accident can be a felony.
Leaving the scene can be a crime if you caused the accident. If you happened to be passing by, or you saw it from your window, you have no responsibility. Can you imagine a world where everybody iss legally required to call the cops whenever they observe or suspect that somebody else is doing something wrong?

Even in the case of a body, maybe somebody would think if he called the cops the killer would come after him. Or maybe he's in a place he shouldn't be for reasons that have nothing to do with the death. Or maybe he's been treated badly by the legal system and doesn't want to risk it again. None of that should be criminal.
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Old 15th October 2021, 02:28 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Don't Good Samaritan laws have something to do with this? Obviously I'm not a lawyer. I don't think I've ever heard of someone getting charged with anything related to it, but I feel like something in there would say a person should call the cops if they find a dead body.
I'm pretty sure Good Samaritan laws are there to protect people who choose to try to help someone, not to punish people who choose not to help.
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Old 15th October 2021, 02:30 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Leaving the scene can be a crime if you caused the accident. If you happened to be passing by, or you saw it from your window, you have no responsibility. Can you imagine a world where everybody iss legally required to call the cops whenever they observe or suspect that somebody else is doing something wrong?

Even in the case of a body, maybe somebody would think if he called the cops the killer would come after him. Or maybe he's in a place he shouldn't be for reasons that have nothing to do with the death. Or maybe he's been treated badly by the legal system and doesn't want to risk it again. None of that should be criminal.
I was talking specifically about failing to report a dead body.
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Old 15th October 2021, 02:48 PM   #542
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I've always thought that failure to report crimes were a bit out of whack in this country. It seems there should be greater requirement to report at least some crimes, render some aid, or at least call authorities in many cases. Remember the case of the teens in Florida who just taunted a man while he drowned? That should be illegal.

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Old 15th October 2021, 03:31 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I was talking specifically about failing to report a dead body.
Misdemeanor at best. Why would you want it to be a felony?
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:43 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Misdemeanor at best. Why would you want it to be a felony?
It's nothing I'm very committed to, but it irks me that some people would consider it reasonable for Laundrie to flee to protect his self-interest, even if he didn't commit the murder.

It seems wrong to simply accept the thought "Hey, there will be no consequence if I run away and prolong the grief, effort, and expense while people are looking for the body I found. Because it's convenient for me."
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:48 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Misdemeanor at best. Why would you want it to be a felony?
Not helping find a dead body? That seems comparable to some felonies such as leaving the scene to me. It's possible, even likely I would think, that people are in great anguish over that dead body.
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Old 15th October 2021, 07:35 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Don't Good Samaritan laws have something to do with this? Obviously I'm not a lawyer. I don't think I've ever heard of someone getting charged with anything related to it, but I feel like something in there would say a person should call the cops if they find a dead body.
Wyoming statute 7-4-201 requires that some deaths be reported. This would fall under the required category. For failure to report he would face up to 6 months in jail.
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Old 15th October 2021, 07:40 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Wyoming statute 7-4-201 requires that some deaths be reported. This would fall under the required category. For failure to report he would face up to 6 months in jail.
Now we're talking. It seems wrong that there could be no consequence from walking away from a dead body without reporting it.
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Old 15th October 2021, 09:13 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Wyoming statute 7-4-201 requires that some deaths be reported. This would fall under the required category. For failure to report he would face up to 6 months in jail.

That's interesting. I assumed it probably applies to someone who has responsibility for the deceased: a family member, a doctor, etc. But apparently it applies to everybody:
Quote:
(a) When any person is found dead and the death appears to have occurred under circumstances indicating the death is a coroner's case, the person who discovers the death shall report it immediately to law enforcement authorities who shall in turn notify the coroner. A person who knowingly violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than six (6) months, a fine of not more than seven hundred fifty dollars ($750.00), or both.
https://law.justia.com/codes/wyoming...ction-7-4-201/
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:21 AM   #549
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Looks like the police found some "articles" belonging to Brian Laundrie, which was confirmed by his attorney.

Quote:
Laundrie family attorney Steven Bertolino told WFLA’s Mahsa Saeidi that Laundrie’s parents went to Myakkahatchee Creek Environmental Park to search for their son on Wednesday morning. The couple met with North Port police and the FBI and “articles” belonging to Brian were found, Bertolino said.
I'm a bit skeptical. I can't figure out for sure if the parents found the items or if the FBI\Police found the items. It would make a huge difference to me.

Shockingly during this manhunt the police have found somewhere between 5-7 bodies, depending on which source you believe. That's crazy. Maybe the cops should be sweeping these areas more often.
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:24 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Looks like the police found some "articles" belonging to Brian Laundrie, which was confirmed by his attorney.



I'm a bit skeptical. I can't figure out for sure if the parents found the items or if the FBI\Police found the items. It would make a huge difference to me.

Shockingly during this manhunt the police have found somewhere between 5-7 bodies, depending on which source you believe. That's crazy. Maybe the cops should be sweeping these areas more often.
It would be incredibly incompetent for any chain of custody of evidence to start with or include the fugitive's parents. I would hope anyone leading this manhunt would have the common sense not to allow the fugitive's parents to be involved in any unsupervised way.
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:37 AM   #551
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It would be incredibly incompetent for any chain of custody of evidence to start with or include the fugitive's parents. I would hope anyone leading this manhunt would have the common sense not to allow the fugitive's parents to be involved in any unsupervised way.
Is it possible to stop the parents? The park is open again. Article is way too vague.
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:39 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Is it possible to stop the parents? The park is open again. Article is way too vague.
No, but there's really nothing to stop them from having a cop follow them around any time they leave their private residence, assuming they have the manpower.
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:42 AM   #553
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So until a more definitive version of that article comes out we don't really know anything new. Note that the key detail in that story is sourced back to the parent's lawyer, not to the authorities.

ETA: Other sources are picking up this story but so far the key detail about finding stuff is sourced to the parent's lawyer. And nothing definitively says the parents were constantly supervised or who found the stuff.

Another edit: Most sources are specifically saying the authorities are explicitly saying "no comment".

Quote:
North Port police "decline to comment, respectfully."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/20/us/br...ito/index.html

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Old 20th October 2021, 09:55 AM   #554
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Huh. CNN is saying a medical examiner has been called in.
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:56 AM   #555
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Yeah, that tease about the examiner has been in multiple articles but there are also reports they've found stuff unrelated to Laundrie so who knows what that means.
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:57 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Huh. CNN is saying a medical examiner has been called in.
Well that's curious.

Hopefully more comes out during the day, but I think the parents (and\or lawyer) would have been called in either way. Someone would need to identify that the items are really Brian's. I just don't know how much you can trust the parents.
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:59 AM   #557
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I mean regular cops can bag evidence. I guess (and I'm not an expert on crime scene / evidence scene producers so grain of salt) if you call a medical specific person there's a reason.

But again this is layperson guessing, maybe it's not uncommon and means nothing.
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Old 20th October 2021, 10:00 AM   #558
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Well that's curious.
Might want to recheck the article you posted a couple posts back, that's the headline in that article now.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 20th October 2021 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 20th October 2021, 10:02 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I mean regular cops can bag evidence. I guess (and I'm not an expert on crime scene / evidence scene producers so grain of salt) if you call a medical specific person there's a reason.

But again this is layperson guessing, maybe it's not uncommon and means nothing.
I wouldn't be surprised if they find a body or remains or whatever unrelated to this case. How often do these wilderness areas get combed like this?
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Old 20th October 2021, 10:04 AM   #560
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Kind of surprised they haven't found one already.
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