Liberals turn on New Mexico governor over gun suspension - Page 9

Lurch · 21st September 2023, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I can guarantee you that many more folks are moving FROM China, Russia, Canada, Germany, France, South Korea to the USA...then vise versa.

Every year.

I guess the world's public perception is that the USA is still a decent place to live with good opportunities for success.

I find it rather telling how THIS is so fiercely clung to, like a life preserver, as a metric of success. In the face of the all too numerous measures of actual quality of life metrics that the US so dismally fails at. For being, like, you know, the most prosperous nation on Earth and all.

It would appear that for too many, in positions of leadership at least, that the almighty Dollar is first and last THE measure of national performance. As long as the illiteracy, infant mortality, slaughter of schoolchildren, lousy wages, medical bankruptcy, and on and on and on, does not impair the accrual of obscene wealth in the grasping hands of the 1%, it's all good.

dirtywick · 21st September 2023, 10:28 AM

i mean, eventually it will. i don't know how they expect to maintain a competitive workforce in the decades to come when they're completely crushing it

arthwollipot · 21st September 2023, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I guess the world's public perception is that the USA is still a decent place to live with good opportunities for success.

Yes, the American cultural propaganda machine has done a pretty good job of convincing a lot of people that this is the case. How many of those immigrants actually achieve "success", whatever that even means?

Blue Mountain · 21st September 2023, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Yes, the American cultural propaganda machine has done a pretty good job of convincing a lot of people that this is the case. How many of those immigrants actually achieve "success", whatever that even means?

"Success" is probably a middle-class lifestyle living in detached housing (owned, not rented) and at least one vehicle. I'm not sure if the immigrants I worked with are the norm or not, but that seems to have been achieved by a large number of immigrants to Canada. That's for two reasons. One, the immigrants I'm most familiar with I was working with, and I worked in a professional setting. Two, Canada targets those people for immigration.

I'm not sure if refugees do as well or not.

Gulliver Foyle · 23rd September 2023, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

So unless you can "make it big", you have failed in life?

Interesting.

I'm not the one who came up with the American dream.

Oh and you need to do much better when you want to put strawman arguments into the mouths of others. But I wouldn't expect better from a "but I'm not really a T**** suppoerte" T**** supporter.

TragicMonkey · 23rd September 2023, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

I don't argue with that. I'm just saying that the perception is wrong.

The US is a country that lags behind everyone it should be competing with. It has a better GDP, but it is failing on every other metric that matters. It does have one of the highest number of incarcerated citizens and one of the highest rates of adults who believe in angels though.

You should not be almost level with Algeria in life expectancy, even if you're not number one you should be competing with Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg...

You should not be behind Uruguay when it comes to infant mortality, if you're behind anyone you should be behind the countries right at the top of the tree.

Americans like to beat their collective chests about how the USA is the greatest country in the world but it just isn't true. You're not a failed state by any means, I'd take the US over Russia or China or literally any Middle Eastern or African country. I'm not even saying the US is terrible, what I'm saying is that comparative to other first world nations the US is terrible.

You still seem to be unwilling or unable to actually address my point. My point isn't "America sucks". My point is that the US model is not the best in the world. My point isn't that the US is dreadful my point is that the rest of the first world is better.

You don't have to be number 1 in everything to be the best, but you should be at least competing for that position and not down in the middle of the Latin American and Caribbean countries. You shouldn't be beaten out by 135 countries for adult literacy.

You cannot say that the US system is the best in the world and then lag behind 106 other countries when it comes to income inequality. That just shows that the statement isn't true.

It doesn't matter how many people believe it and move to the US seeking this mythical "greatest system in the world". The bare facts tell the story. The US isn't even close to the top of the pile. Depending on the metric you look at it's not even in the top half.

ETA: Also I note that you snipped off the most salient part of my post and only dealt with one of the points and even then you didn't actually provide any evidence to back up your claim, although I am willing to accept it as likely.

I think of it as America being like Superman. Superman, with his array of powers, ought to be able to permanently take down Lex Luthor (who has no powers at all) in under thirty seconds. And yet he doesn't, he can't, he can't, he doesn't, and Lex plagues the world for decades and decades not because Superman isn't powerful, but because Superman is simply not as good as he ought to be. The bar is higher for him, and Superman consistently flies well under it, every day. We don't expect Robin to beat Lex Luthor, that would be asking way too much. But Superman? He should have had that crap handled long ago.

Gulliver Foyle · 23rd September 2023, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

I don't argue with that. I'm just saying that the perception is wrong.

The US is a country that lags behind everyone it should be competing with. It has a better GDP, but it is failing on every other metric that matters. It does have one of the highest number of incarcerated citizens and one of the highest rates of adults who believe in angels though.

You should not be almost level with Algeria in life expectancy, even if you're not number one you should be competing with Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg...

You should not be behind Uruguay when it comes to infant mortality, if you're behind anyone you should be behind the countries right at the top of the tree.

Americans like to beat their collective chests about how the USA is the greatest country in the world but it just isn't true. You're not a failed state by any means, I'd take the US over Russia or China or literally any Middle Eastern or African country. I'm not even saying the US is terrible, what I'm saying is that comparative to other first world nations the US is terrible.

You still seem to be unwilling or unable to actually address my point. My point isn't "America sucks". My point is that the US model is not the best in the world. My point isn't that the US is dreadful my point is that the rest of the first world is better.

You don't have to be number 1 in everything to be the best, but you should be at least competing for that position and not down in the middle of the Latin American and Caribbean countries. You shouldn't be beaten out by 135 countries for adult literacy.

You cannot say that the US system is the best in the world and then lag behind 106 other countries when it comes to income inequality. That just shows that the statement isn't true.

It doesn't matter how many people believe it and move to the US seeking this mythical "greatest system in the world". The bare facts tell the story. The US isn't even close to the top of the pile. Depending on the metric you look at it's not even in the top half.

ETA: Also I note that you snipped off the most salient part of my post and only dealt with one of the points and even then you didn't actually provide any evidence to back up your claim, although I am willing to accept it as likely.

Some parts of the US are actually good places to live. They are either blie states or the blue parts of "red" states, where politicians actually think their job is to at least partially help those in need. However the rest of the country is so bad and so riddled with far-right thinking even the good parts get pulled down.

That's why you get small numbers of people immigrating to the US from developed countries (albeit most of them are temporary at the behest of work), and why they end up living in the blue parts of the country.

Hercules56 · 23rd September 2023, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

I'm not the one who came up with the American dream.

Oh and you need to do much better when you want to put strawman arguments into the mouths of others. But I wouldn't expect better from a "but I'm not really a T**** suppoerte" T**** supporter.

You think everyone who disagrees with you is a MAGA.

21st September 2023, 10:28 AM	#322
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860	i mean, eventually it will. i don't know how they expect to maintain a competitive workforce in the decades to come when they're completely crushing it
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860

21st September 2023, 08:30 PM	#323
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 84,591	Originally Posted by Hercules56 I guess the world's public perception is that the USA is still a decent place to live with good opportunities for success. Yes, the American cultural propaganda machine has done a pretty good job of convincing a lot of people that this is the case. How many of those immigrants actually achieve "success", whatever that even means?
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

21st September 2023, 09:44 PM	#324
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,498	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Yes, the American cultural propaganda machine has done a pretty good job of convincing a lot of people that this is the case. How many of those immigrants actually achieve "success", whatever that even means? "Success" is probably a middle-class lifestyle living in detached housing (owned, not rented) and at least one vehicle. I'm not sure if the immigrants I worked with are the norm or not, but that seems to have been achieved by a large number of immigrants to Canada. That's for two reasons. One, the immigrants I'm most familiar with I was working with, and I worked in a professional setting. Two, Canada targets those people for immigration. I'm not sure if refugees do as well or not.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

23rd September 2023, 12:43 AM	#325
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,503	Originally Posted by Hercules56 So unless you can "make it big", you have failed in life? Interesting. I'm not the one who came up with the American dream. Oh and you need to do much better when you want to put strawman arguments into the mouths of others. But I wouldn't expect better from a "but I'm not really a T** suppoerte" T** supporter.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

23rd September 2023, 12:52 AM	#326
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 67,160	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan I don't argue with that. I'm just saying that the perception is wrong. The US is a country that lags behind everyone it should be competing with. It has a better GDP, but it is failing on every other metric that matters. It does have one of the highest number of incarcerated citizens and one of the highest rates of adults who believe in angels though. You should not be almost level with Algeria in life expectancy, even if you're not number one you should be competing with Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg... You should not be behind Uruguay when it comes to infant mortality, if you're behind anyone you should be behind the countries right at the top of the tree. Americans like to beat their collective chests about how the USA is the greatest country in the world but it just isn't true. You're not a failed state by any means, I'd take the US over Russia or China or literally any Middle Eastern or African country. I'm not even saying the US is terrible, what I'm saying is that comparative to other first world nations the US is terrible. You still seem to be unwilling or unable to actually address my point. My point isn't "America sucks". My point is that the US model is not the best in the world. My point isn't that the US is dreadful my point is that the rest of the first world is better. You don't have to be number 1 in everything to be the best, but you should be at least competing for that position and not down in the middle of the Latin American and Caribbean countries. You shouldn't be beaten out by 135 countries for adult literacy. You cannot say that the US system is the best in the world and then lag behind 106 other countries when it comes to income inequality. That just shows that the statement isn't true. It doesn't matter how many people believe it and move to the US seeking this mythical "greatest system in the world". The bare facts tell the story. The US isn't even close to the top of the pile. Depending on the metric you look at it's not even in the top half. ETA: Also I note that you snipped off the most salient part of my post and only dealt with one of the points and even then you didn't actually provide any evidence to back up your claim, although I am willing to accept it as likely. I think of it as America being like Superman. Superman, with his array of powers, ought to be able to permanently take down Lex Luthor (who has no powers at all) in under thirty seconds. And yet he doesn't, he can't, he can't, he doesn't, and Lex plagues the world for decades and decades not because Superman isn't powerful, but because Superman is simply not as good as he ought to be. The bar is higher for him, and Superman consistently flies well under it, every day. We don't expect Robin to beat Lex Luthor, that would be asking way too much. But Superman? He should have had that crap handled long ago.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st September 2023, 10:22 AM	#321
Lurch Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,473	Originally Posted by Hercules56 I can guarantee you that many more folks are moving FROM China, Russia, Canada, Germany, France, South Korea to the USA...then vise versa. Every year. I guess the world's public perception is that the USA is still a decent place to live with good opportunities for success. I find it rather telling how THIS is so fiercely clung to, like a life preserver, as a metric of success. In the face of the all too numerous measures of actual quality of life metrics that the US so dismally fails at. For being, like, you know, the most prosperous nation on Earth and all. It would appear that for too many, in positions of leadership at least, that the almighty Dollar is first and last THE measure of national performance. As long as the illiteracy, infant mortality, slaughter of schoolchildren, lousy wages, medical bankruptcy, and on and on and on, does not impair the accrual of obscene wealth in the grasping hands of the 1%, it's all good.

23rd September 2023, 12:59 AM	#327
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,503	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan I don't argue with that. I'm just saying that the perception is wrong. The US is a country that lags behind everyone it should be competing with. It has a better GDP, but it is failing on every other metric that matters. It does have one of the highest number of incarcerated citizens and one of the highest rates of adults who believe in angels though. You should not be almost level with Algeria in life expectancy, even if you're not number one you should be competing with Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg... You should not be behind Uruguay when it comes to infant mortality, if you're behind anyone you should be behind the countries right at the top of the tree. Americans like to beat their collective chests about how the USA is the greatest country in the world but it just isn't true. You're not a failed state by any means, I'd take the US over Russia or China or literally any Middle Eastern or African country. I'm not even saying the US is terrible, what I'm saying is that comparative to other first world nations the US is terrible. You still seem to be unwilling or unable to actually address my point. My point isn't "America sucks". My point is that the US model is not the best in the world. My point isn't that the US is dreadful my point is that the rest of the first world is better. You don't have to be number 1 in everything to be the best, but you should be at least competing for that position and not down in the middle of the Latin American and Caribbean countries. You shouldn't be beaten out by 135 countries for adult literacy. You cannot say that the US system is the best in the world and then lag behind 106 other countries when it comes to income inequality. That just shows that the statement isn't true. It doesn't matter how many people believe it and move to the US seeking this mythical "greatest system in the world". The bare facts tell the story. The US isn't even close to the top of the pile. Depending on the metric you look at it's not even in the top half. ETA: Also I note that you snipped off the most salient part of my post and only dealt with one of the points and even then you didn't actually provide any evidence to back up your claim, although I am willing to accept it as likely. Some parts of the US are actually good places to live. They are either blie states or the blue parts of "red" states, where politicians actually think their job is to at least partially help those in need. However the rest of the country is so bad and so riddled with far-right thinking even the good parts get pulled down. That's why you get small numbers of people immigrating to the US from developed countries (albeit most of them are temporary at the behest of work), and why they end up living in the blue parts of the country.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

23rd September 2023, 09:41 AM	#328
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle I'm not the one who came up with the American dream. Oh and you need to do much better when you want to put strawman arguments into the mouths of others. But I wouldn't expect better from a "but I'm not really a T** suppoerte" T** supporter. You think everyone who disagrees with you is a MAGA.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."