[Merged] Concerns over baby killer ignored? / Nurse Lucy Letby killed babies in her care - Page 4

Vixen · 25th September 2023, 08:22 AM

The CPS has presented its case today at a scheduled hearing as to whether Lucy Letby should stand retrial on any of the verdicts the jury failed to reach a unanimous decisions. The prosecutors, via Nick Johnson KC, have asked for and have been allowed a retrial in the case of a baby girl.

Quote:

Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC told Manchester crown court on Monday that the prosecution would retry Letby on one of those allegations – the attempted murder of a baby girl in February 2016 – but not on the remaining counts.

Mr Justice Goss KC said the first available date for a new trial was 10 June 2024 due to the “huge backlog of cases” in the courts.

Not sure ATM which baby this was but the full lists of verdicts is here:

Quote:

Below is the full list of counts that Letby faced in court - and the verdicts.

1. Murder of Baby A - GUILTY

2. Attempted murder of Baby B - GUILTY

3. Murder of Baby C - GUILTY

4. Murder of Baby D - GUILTY

5. Murder of Baby E - GUILTY

6. Attempted murder of Baby F - GUILTY

7. Attempted murder of Baby G - GUILTY

8. Attempted murder of Baby G - GUILTY

9. Alleged attempted murder of Baby G - NOT GUILTY

10. Alleged attempted murder of Baby H - NOT GUILTY

11. Alleged attempted murder of Baby H - NO VERDICT

12. Murder of Baby I - GUILTY

13. Alleged attempted murder of Baby J - NO VERDICT

14. Alleged attempted murder of Baby K - NO VERDICT

15. Attempted murder of Baby L - GUILTY

16. Attempted murder of Baby M - GUILTY

17. Attempted murder of Baby N - GUILTY

18. Alleged attempted murder of Baby N - NO VERDICT

19. Alleged attempted murder of Baby N - NO VERDICT

20. Murder of Baby O - GUILTY

21. Murder of Baby P - GUILTY

22. Alleged attempted murder of Baby Q - NO VERDICT

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ct-22-27547555

It'll be useful to understand which it is to have an idea of the quality of evidence.

One would have thought that if the other undecided verdicts are to be left on file, why this one wasn't, given she has several full-life-tariff sentences, which isn't going to decrease or increase her spell in prison.

Perhaps the Crown prosecutors feel that one or two jurors were behaving unreasonably in refusing to agree a unanimous verdict and that this time, it will be clearer.

11. Alleged attempted murder of Baby H - NO VERDICT
13. Alleged attempted murder of Baby J - NO VERDICT

14. Alleged attempted murder of Baby K - NO VERDICT

(Child N was a boy.)

OK - so it is CHILD K being brought back, according to various news outlets.

According to someone on X, Child K:

Quote:

In this specific case (Child K) Letby was witnessed standing over the child, alone in the room, whilst it was in distress and in need of help. The child died 3 days later.

This would be the case where Dr. Jayaram saw her and had his suspicions confirmed. Letby's colleague testified that it wasn't Letby who switched off the alarm, but the doctors. So perhaps this witness thought she was helping out a colleague in distress but the prosecutors clearly believe otherwise and that they can yet prove it.

Planigale · 25th September 2023, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

The CPS has presented its case today at a scheduled hearing as to whether Lucy Letby should stand retrial on any of the verdicts the jury failed to reach a unanimous decisions. The prosecutors, via Nick Johnson KC, have asked for and have been allowed a retrial in the case of a baby girl.

Not sure ATM which baby this was but the full lists of verdicts is here:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ct-22-27547555

It'll be useful to understand which it is to have an idea of the quality of evidence.

One would have thought that if the other undecided verdicts are to be left on file, why this one wasn't, given she has several full-life-tariff sentences, which isn't going to decrease or increase her spell in prison.

Perhaps the Crown prosecutors feel that one or two jurors were behaving unreasonably in refusing to agree a unanimous verdict and that this time, it will be clearer.

11. Alleged attempted murder of Baby H - NO VERDICT
13. Alleged attempted murder of Baby J - NO VERDICT

14. Alleged attempted murder of Baby K - NO VERDICT

(Child N was a boy.)

OK - so it is CHILD K being brought back, according to various news outlets.

According to someone on X, Child K:

This would be the case where Dr. Jayaram saw her and had his suspicions confirmed. Letby's colleague testified that it wasn't Letby who switched off the alarm, but the doctors. So perhaps this witness thought she was helping out a colleague in distress but the prosecutors clearly believe otherwise and that they can yet prove it.

England no longer requires unanimous verdicts, so the split must have been greater than 10:2, which would be an acceptable majority verdict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_jury

Undoubtedly a key factor will have been the parents' opinion.

Darat · 25th September 2023, 12:43 PM

It's Baby K.

Vixen · 25th September 2023, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Planigale

England no longer requires unanimous verdicts, so the split must have been greater than 10:2, which would be an acceptable majority verdict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_jury

Undoubtedly a key factor will have been the parents' opinion.

Whoops! Of course, when the judge saw the jury struggling to come to a verdict he did indeed direct them to come to a majority one. This had to be 10-2 and when one of the jurors was released from service 'for good sound reasons', the majority required was 9-1. I think there was a point when Justice Goss feared they might never reach a verdict. I think this was a wise jury. They asked a knowledgeable question about insulin levels and C-Peptides (how long it would get back to normal levels) but I don't think they asked any other questions, or I missed it. ISTM the fact they could find a mixture of guilty and not guilty plus undecided for several over a period of over 100 days indicates they did take their duty very seriously, despite having to miss out on Christmas and Summer holidays.

Baby K is probably felt important by CPS because this was the case that made Drs. Jayaram and Brearey demand Letby taken off the ward. Baby K had been born very prematurely at 25 weeks. Jayaram alleges that he saw Letby standing over the baby just watching her desaturate. This can be seen on a machine, showing the levels going down and she was doing nothing to help her.

Quote:

Mr Johnson said Letby was “caught red-handed” when Dr Jayaram walked into the nursery and saw the defendant alone stood next to the child’s incubator.
Child K’s blood oxygen levels were dropping, the alarms were not sounding and Letby was “doing nothing” as Dr Jayaram stepped in to save the infant’s life, the prosecutor said.
Letby denied any wrongdoing as she later told police she was “possibly waiting to see if she (Child K) self-corrected”, the court heard.
Mr Johnson said: “Imagine watching a baby of 25 weeks gestation desaturating in front of you. You can see it on the monitor – between 30 and 60 seconds.
“Imagine watching a tiny, little baby desaturate. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30.
“It’s uncomfortable isn’t it. Even talking about it is uncomfortable. That’s why it is attempted murder, ladies and gentlemen.”

https://www.hexham-courant.co.uk/new...es-court-told/

Jayaram claims Letby told him that the baby had knocked the tube out herself, which is not uncommon, but he was sceptical because the baby was too weak in his view to have done that. He claims that Letby then made a point of pointing out how the tube had become dislodged twice more as if to say, 'see, she did dislodge her own tube'.

As this case was the 'smoking gun', as it were, for Brearey and Jayaram, and the Hospital Trust Management and Nursing Chiefs refused to take their concerns seriously, the tragedy is that had Letby been removed at this point whilst being investigated, the death of the twins and two of the triplets would have been prevented, plus the third triplet saved from being brain-damaged for life.

Perhaps the CPS felt a definite verdict of guilty or not guilty will be useful for the Public Inquiry in establishing just how much blame the executive management should be allocated.

It may not be important at all as far as the inquiry goes and there is anther reason for referral back.

25th September 2023, 08:22 AM	#121
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 33,634	The CPS has presented its case today at a scheduled hearing as to whether Lucy Letby should stand retrial on any of the verdicts the jury failed to reach a unanimous decisions. The prosecutors, via Nick Johnson KC, have asked for and have been allowed a retrial in the case of a baby girl. Quote: Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC told Manchester crown court on Monday that the prosecution would retry Letby on one of those allegations – the attempted murder of a baby girl in February 2016 – but not on the remaining counts. Mr Justice Goss KC said the first available date for a new trial was 10 June 2024 due to the “huge backlog of cases” in the courts. Not sure ATM which baby this was but the full lists of verdicts is here: Quote: Below is the full list of counts that Letby faced in court - and the verdicts. 1. Murder of Baby A - GUILTY 2. Attempted murder of Baby B - GUILTY 3. Murder of Baby C - GUILTY 4. Murder of Baby D - GUILTY 5. Murder of Baby E - GUILTY 6. Attempted murder of Baby F - GUILTY 7. Attempted murder of Baby G - GUILTY 8. Attempted murder of Baby G - GUILTY 9. Alleged attempted murder of Baby G - NOT GUILTY 10. Alleged attempted murder of Baby H - NOT GUILTY 11. Alleged attempted murder of Baby H - NO VERDICT 12. Murder of Baby I - GUILTY 13. Alleged attempted murder of Baby J - NO VERDICT 14. Alleged attempted murder of Baby K - NO VERDICT 15. Attempted murder of Baby L - GUILTY 16. Attempted murder of Baby M - GUILTY 17. Attempted murder of Baby N - GUILTY 18. Alleged attempted murder of Baby N - NO VERDICT 19. Alleged attempted murder of Baby N - NO VERDICT 20. Murder of Baby O - GUILTY 21. Murder of Baby P - GUILTY 22. Alleged attempted murder of Baby Q - NO VERDICT https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ct-22-27547555 It'll be useful to understand which it is to have an idea of the quality of evidence. One would have thought that if the other undecided verdicts are to be left on file, why this one wasn't, given she has several full-life-tariff sentences, which isn't going to decrease or increase her spell in prison. Perhaps the Crown prosecutors feel that one or two jurors were behaving unreasonably in refusing to agree a unanimous verdict and that this time, it will be clearer. 11. Alleged attempted murder of Baby H - NO VERDICT 13. Alleged attempted murder of Baby J - NO VERDICT 14. Alleged attempted murder of Baby K - NO VERDICT (Child N was a boy.) OK - so it is CHILD K being brought back, according to various news outlets. According to someone on X, Child K: Quote: In this specific case (Child K) Letby was witnessed standing over the child, alone in the room, whilst it was in distress and in need of help. The child died 3 days later. This would be the case where Dr. Jayaram saw her and had his suspicions confirmed. Letby's colleague testified that it wasn't Letby who switched off the alarm, but the doctors. So perhaps this witness thought she was helping out a colleague in distress but the prosecutors clearly believe otherwise and that they can yet prove it.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

25th September 2023, 12:43 PM	#123
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 111,239	It's Baby K.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

25th September 2023, 03:00 PM	#124
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 33,634	Originally Posted by Planigale England no longer requires unanimous verdicts, so the split must have been greater than 10:2, which would be an acceptable majority verdict. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_jury Undoubtedly a key factor will have been the parents' opinion. Whoops! Of course, when the judge saw the jury struggling to come to a verdict he did indeed direct them to come to a majority one. This had to be 10-2 and when one of the jurors was released from service 'for good sound reasons', the majority required was 9-1. I think there was a point when Justice Goss feared they might never reach a verdict. I think this was a wise jury. They asked a knowledgeable question about insulin levels and C-Peptides (how long it would get back to normal levels) but I don't think they asked any other questions, or I missed it. ISTM the fact they could find a mixture of guilty and not guilty plus undecided for several over a period of over 100 days indicates they did take their duty very seriously, despite having to miss out on Christmas and Summer holidays. Baby K is probably felt important by CPS because this was the case that made Drs. Jayaram and Brearey demand Letby taken off the ward. Baby K had been born very prematurely at 25 weeks. Jayaram alleges that he saw Letby standing over the baby just watching her desaturate. This can be seen on a machine, showing the levels going down and she was doing nothing to help her. Quote: Mr Johnson said Letby was “caught red-handed” when Dr Jayaram walked into the nursery and saw the defendant alone stood next to the child’s incubator. Child K’s blood oxygen levels were dropping, the alarms were not sounding and Letby was “doing nothing” as Dr Jayaram stepped in to save the infant’s life, the prosecutor said. Letby denied any wrongdoing as she later told police she was “possibly waiting to see if she (Child K) self-corrected”, the court heard. Mr Johnson said: “Imagine watching a baby of 25 weeks gestation desaturating in front of you. You can see it on the monitor – between 30 and 60 seconds. “Imagine watching a tiny, little baby desaturate. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30. “It’s uncomfortable isn’t it. Even talking about it is uncomfortable. That’s why it is attempted murder, ladies and gentlemen.” https://www.hexham-courant.co.uk/new...es-court-told/ Jayaram claims Letby told him that the baby had knocked the tube out herself, which is not uncommon, but he was sceptical because the baby was too weak in his view to have done that. He claims that Letby then made a point of pointing out how the tube had become dislodged twice more as if to say, 'see, she did dislodge her own tube'. As this case was the 'smoking gun', as it were, for Brearey and Jayaram, and the Hospital Trust Management and Nursing Chiefs refused to take their concerns seriously, the tragedy is that had Letby been removed at this point whilst being investigated, the death of the twins and two of the triplets would have been prevented, plus the third triplet saved from being brain-damaged for life. Perhaps the CPS felt a definite verdict of guilty or not guilty will be useful for the Public Inquiry in establishing just how much blame the executive management should be allocated. It may not be important at all as far as the inquiry goes and there is anther reason for referral back.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

25th September 2023, 08:43 AM	#122
Planigale Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 6,250	Originally Posted by Vixen The CPS has presented its case today at a scheduled hearing as to whether Lucy Letby should stand retrial on any of the verdicts the jury failed to reach a unanimous decisions. The prosecutors, via Nick Johnson KC, have asked for and have been allowed a retrial in the case of a baby girl. Not sure ATM which baby this was but the full lists of verdicts is here: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ct-22-27547555 It'll be useful to understand which it is to have an idea of the quality of evidence. One would have thought that if the other undecided verdicts are to be left on file, why this one wasn't, given she has several full-life-tariff sentences, which isn't going to decrease or increase her spell in prison. Perhaps the Crown prosecutors feel that one or two jurors were behaving unreasonably in refusing to agree a unanimous verdict and that this time, it will be clearer. 11. Alleged attempted murder of Baby H - NO VERDICT 13. Alleged attempted murder of Baby J - NO VERDICT 14. Alleged attempted murder of Baby K - NO VERDICT (Child N was a boy.) OK - so it is CHILD K being brought back, according to various news outlets. According to someone on X, Child K: This would be the case where Dr. Jayaram saw her and had his suspicions confirmed. Letby's colleague testified that it wasn't Letby who switched off the alarm, but the doctors. So perhaps this witness thought she was helping out a colleague in distress but the prosecutors clearly believe otherwise and that they can yet prove it. England no longer requires unanimous verdicts, so the split must have been greater than 10:2, which would be an acceptable majority verdict. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_jury Undoubtedly a key factor will have been the parents' opinion.