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Old 25th September 2023, 09:09 AM   #241
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
A live baby is potentially viable in the 3rd trimester. So the reason labour is induced, not abortion, is almost certainly due to stillbirth late in pregnancy. The baby has died in the womb for some reason. Stillbirth is not a desired outcome for the vast majority of pregnant women. It is very hard psychologically, for them and their families. Not inducing stillbirth labour leads to serious medical complications including a painful death.

So perhaps you might try reading something else besides evangelical crazy propaganda.
There is a ton of evidence that women often get late-term abortions for reasons unrelated to their survival, health or the health of the fetus.

https://www.ansirh.org/research/rese...ster-abortions

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-po...-in-pregnancy/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-po...-who-get-them/

I think once the fetus has past the point of viability and has a good chance of survival outside the womb, the baby should be delivered and put up for adoption IF the mother does not want it.

I see no point in Dilation & Extraction, with often included literally killing the fetus by lethal injection, if it can survive outside the womb. Lots of folks are looking for babies to adopt.
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Old 25th September 2023, 09:12 AM   #242
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I don't give a **** if a woman gets an abortion because she got one free with her oil change, it's not my business.

And unless YOU are planning to adopt all these babies you demand be born your opinion means less than nothing.
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Old 25th September 2023, 09:49 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't give a **** if a woman gets an abortion because she got one free with her oil change, it's not my business.

And unless YOU are planning to adopt all these babies you demand be born your opinion means less than nothing.
So you support having no limitations whatsoever on late term abortions? Dilate & Extract up to the 32nd week if the mother wants to try?
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Old 25th September 2023, 09:51 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't give a **** if a woman gets an abortion because she got one free with her oil change, it's not my business.

And unless YOU are planning to adopt all these babies you demand be born your opinion means less than nothing.
American families spend tens of thousands of dollars and years trying to adopt babies from all over the world. There's simply no shortage of couples looking to adopt. Clearly at some point a fetus that can survive outside the womb should have the ability to live, regardless of what the mother wants. Of course I support late-term abortions if it is necessary to save the life of the mother or if the baby will be severely deformed or diseased. But past the point of viability no a mother should not be able to choose to abort. It should be based on medical necessity with the consultation of multiple doctors.
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Last edited by Hercules56; 25th September 2023 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 25th September 2023, 09:58 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
American families spend tens of thousands of dollars and years trying to adopt babies from all over the world. There's simply no shortage of couples looking to adopt. Clearly at some point a fetus that can survive outside the womb should have the ability to live, regardless of what the mother wants. Of course I support late-term abortions if it is necessary to save the life of the mother or if the baby will be severely deformed or diseased. But past the point of viability no a mother should not be able to choose to abort. It should be based on medical necessity with the consultation of multiple doctors.
Man that's a lot of reasons you feel entitled to impose on the bodily autonomy of total strangers, and your suggestion that the high demand for adopted babies (presumably only the healthy ones) reduces women to little more than brood sows.
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Old 25th September 2023, 10:05 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Man that's a lot of reasons you feel entitled to impose on the bodily autonomy of total strangers, and your suggestion that the high demand for adopted babies (presumably only the healthy ones) reduces women to little more than brood sows.
Society has the right to make rules. Im not an anarchist or a libertarian so, yeah sorry.
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Old 25th September 2023, 10:42 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
American families spend tens of thousands of dollars and years trying to adopt babies from all over the world. There's simply no shortage of couples looking to adopt.
Someone should tell the 600,000+ children currently in foster care in the US about that.

Quote:
Clearly at some point a fetus that can survive outside the womb should have the ability to live, regardless of what the mother wants. Of course I support late-term abortions if it is necessary to save the life of the mother or if the baby will be severely deformed or diseased. But past the point of viability no a mother should not be able to choose to abort. It should be based on medical necessity with the consultation of multiple doctors.
You know who isn't consulted? You. Or me. Or anyone who isn't the mother or her doctor.
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Old 25th September 2023, 11:20 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Someone should tell the 600,000+ children currently in foster care in the US about that.



You know who isn't consulted? You. Or me. Or anyone who isn't the mother or her doctor.
So you're saying society has no business passing laws regarding abortion at all? Even Roe v Wade and Casey didn't go that far.
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Last edited by Hercules56; 25th September 2023 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 25th September 2023, 11:29 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
So you're saying society has no business passing laws regarding abortion at all? Even Roe v Wade and Casey didn't go that far.
I think a better way to state it is that there is no NEED for laws specifically dealing with abortion.

Canada has no abortion laws (after our previous laws were struck down by the supreme court). Yet we don't exactly have a bloodbath of aborted fetuses in the streets. Instead, abortion restrictions come in the form of things like medical licensing organizations and hospital boards (i.e. people who are more familiar with medical ethics and other health issues than your local politician). A doctor who performs late-term abortions without any sort of underlying medical reason would likely find themselves under a microscope by various governing bodies and could possibly lose their license to practice.

If laws are passed, they should reflect the practices as recommended by the medical community.
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Old 25th September 2023, 11:40 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think a better way to state it is that there is no NEED for laws specifically dealing with abortion.

Canada has no abortion laws (after our previous laws were struck down by the supreme court). Yet we don't exactly have a bloodbath of aborted fetuses in the streets. Instead, abortion restrictions come in the form of things like medical licensing organizations and hospital boards (i.e. people who are more familiar with medical ethics and other health issues than your local politician). A doctor who performs late-term abortions without any sort of underlying medical reason would likely find themselves under a microscope by various governing bodies and could possibly lose their license to practice.

If laws are passed, they should reflect the practices as recommended by the medical community.
Abortion is not like other medical procedures and decisions. It involves the termination of an organism that could, if allowed, become a full-fledged human being. And as Casey & Roe made it understood, society has a compelling interest in protecting human life especially at a late stage of gestation where it can survive outside the womb.

Fetuses during the 1st trimester are a much easier moral debate since the fetus simply cannot survive outside the womb and for all purposes is basically part of the woman's body. Even you can understand how things get a lot trickier when the fetus has become almost a viable human being on his own, and could survive on its own even if the mother was dead. It's intellectually dishonest to compare this to the removal of a wisdom tooth, or a an appendectomy.
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:09 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Someone should tell the 600,000+ children currently in foster care in the US about that.
the idea that there's a surplus of adoptive families really highlights how incredibly unfamiliar he is with the topic.
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:12 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
the idea that there's a surplus of adoptive families really highlights how incredibly unfamiliar he is with the topic.
"While it is difficult to find an exact, accurate number to answer this question, Some sources estimate that there are about 2 million couples currently waiting to adopt in the United States which means there are as many as 36 waiting families for every one child who is placed for adoption."

https://www.americanadoptions.com/pr...for%20adoption.
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:17 PM   #253
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and there's 500k kids in foster care somehow
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:21 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I never made any claims regarding the 1968 gun law, and that is definitely not the topic we are discussing here.
I'm sorry you could not deduce that I juxtaposed the 6 and the 8.
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:38 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'm sorry you could not deduce that I juxtaposed the 6 and the 8.
That would be easy except for the fact that major gun legislation was passed in 1968.
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:41 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Abortion means the fetus is killed and removed.
Abortion does not always mean the fetus is killed and removed. Abortions also occur when the fetus has died in utero.

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Lots of folks are looking for babies to adopt.
Lots of folks are looking for healthy, white babies to adopt.
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:44 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
That would be easy except for the fact that major gun legislation was passed in 1968.
Uh-huh. But what was our lengthy discussion about? HINT: it wasn't the 1968 gun legislation. Put the shovel down.
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:44 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Abortion does not always mean the fetus is killed and removed. Abortions also occur when the fetus has died in utero.



Lots of folks are looking for healthy, white babies to adopt.
Funny, i know tons of couples who adopted non-white babies. In fact I know of more non-white people who were adopted than white.
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:53 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Funny, i know tons of couples who adopted non-white babies. In fact I know of more non-white people who were adopted than white.
Has it occurred to you that's because there aren't enough healthy, white children available?

In 2021, the number of White children adopted: 27,145. Number of Hispanic children adopted: 10,991. Number of Black children adopted: 9,087.

The more healthy, white babies available to adopt would mean more minority babies not being adopted. The more babies available to adopt, the less older children will be adopted so more older children staying in foster care.
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Old 25th September 2023, 02:55 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Has it occurred to you that's because there aren't enough healthy, white children available?

In 2021, the number of White children adopted: 27,145. Number of Hispanic children adopted: 10,991. Number of Black children adopted: 9,087.

The more healthy, white babies available to adopt would mean more minority babies not being adopted. The more babies available to adopt, the less older children will be adopted so more older children staying in foster care.
Blacks makeup about 13% of the USA. Those adoption numbers seem to follow. I don't see a problem here. In fact the math shows that blacks make up a higher percentage of adoptions than their proportion of society, which kind of goes against your argument.
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Old 25th September 2023, 03:49 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Blacks makeup about 13% of the USA. Those adoption numbers seem to follow. I don't see a problem here. In fact the math shows that blacks make up a higher percentage of adoptions than their proportion of society, which kind of goes against your argument.
With fewer white babies available for adoption, more couples are adopting Black babies. The demand for healthy, white babies far exceeds that for Black babies.

Quote:
DM indicated that Black children (0.81) were underrepresented in adoption, and DI indicated that the likelihood of adoption for Black children (0.73) was one third lower than that for White children. The event history analyses revealed that White children were 1.27 times more likely to be adopted than Black children.
Quote:
The results from this study corroborate evidence from the existing literature that Black children are less likely to be adopted and wait for long periods in the adoption process than White children
(https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...45213423002120)

Regardless, this is off topic in a "Trump" thread. So you have the last word if you must. I'm out of it.
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Old 25th September 2023, 05:04 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
With fewer white babies available for adoption, more couples are adopting Black babies. The demand for healthy, white babies far exceeds that for Black babies.



(https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...45213423002120)

Regardless, this is off topic in a "Trump" thread. So you have the last word if you must. I'm out of it.
Thank God.

Now back to the thread.

No, I am not ready for another Trump presidency. We should do everything we can to prevent it including getting a new candidate if necessary.
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Old 26th September 2023, 02:43 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Someone should tell the 600,000+ children currently in foster care in the US about that.



You know who isn't consulted? You. Or me. Or anyone who isn't the mother or her doctor.
I thought that number was usually estimated* at close to a million children.

*Yes, estimate. The system is so broken up, fragmented, underfunded and, well, broken that the US doesn't actually know how many children are in care.
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Old 26th September 2023, 02:53 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
"While it is difficult to find an exact, accurate number to answer this question, Some sources estimate that there are about 2 million couples currently waiting to adopt in the United States which means there are as many as 36 waiting families for every one child who is placed for adoption."

https://www.americanadoptions.com/pr...for%20adoption.
Have you any better source for those numbers than a for profit adoption agency touting for business?
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Old 26th September 2023, 03:09 PM   #265
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https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/new...ressional-maps

Not directly related to Trump, but may make it harder for him to win and the GOP to hold the House.
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