Continuation The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 8

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Is it true though? I doubt the average American has anything but the vaguest sense of how much public money is going to this foreign affair.

I'd give it a sorta there, at best. You could justify it with the fact that extremely few know exacts, so there's some technically true going on there.

One could note that most of those that actually are trying to make a notable deal of the numbers tend to be trying to make a particular argument with such, usually out of context, either way. For example, when "just think about how this money could be better spent on you" is largely being pushed by the people who have been actively working to screw you over a lot more and would never spend it on you, that rather suggests that they're being less than honest about their actual goals. With that said, those who want to say that a lot of money is going to Ukraine do have a point - it's total is apparently around 1/10th of 2022's military budget. That really is a lot of value. It's also money that, in practice, is overwhelmingly more effective in the "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" way than the rest of what we spend on the US' defense. If Ukraine had fallen, we'd very much be facing the prospect of overwhelmingly more being spent in a more direct war between NATO and a very emboldened Russia in a much better strategic position, the chance of China actually invading Taiwan rising dramatically with the dramatically higher costs associated with that, and a host of other issues in practice.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Aridas

I'd give it a sorta there, at best. You could justify it with the fact that extremely few know exacts, so there's some technically true going on there.

One could note that most of those that actually are trying to make a notable deal of the numbers tend to be trying to make a particular argument with such, usually out of context, either way. For example, when "just think about how this money could be better spent on you" is largely being pushed by the people who have been actively working to screw you over a lot more and would never spend it on you, that rather suggests that they're being less than honest about their actual goals. With that said, those who want to say that a lot of money is going to Ukraine do have a point - it's total is apparently around 1/10th of 2022's military budget. That really is a lot of value. It's also money that, in practice, is overwhelmingly more effective in the "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" way than the rest of what we spend on the US' defense. If Ukraine had fallen, we'd very much be facing the prospect of overwhelmingly more being spent in a more direct war between NATO and a very emboldened Russia in a much better strategic position, the chance of China actually invading Taiwan rising dramatically with the dramatically higher costs associated with that, and a host of other issues in practice.

Not really buying the neo-domino theory. Supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do but there is zero reason to believe that an unchecked Russia would lead to some likely conflict between NATO and Russia directly.

Your point about the money not really mattering is true. I also find the idea that war spending in Ukraine is somehow impacting domestic spending quite silly. Like, we were all around before the war and it's not like the government was eager to spend a bunch on domestic projects then. The war could end tomorrow and we're not going to see a dime more go to domestic programs doing any good.

[gnome]

Originally Posted by theprestige

We spend a ton of money per capita on healthcare. It's just... not money well spent. It's not the military-industrial complex that's taking money away from healthcare. It's the healthcare-industrial complex shooting itself in the foot. If we actually reformed our healthcare system, we'd get better healthcare outcomes *and* free up more money for the military-industrial complex.

Because we usually have very different directions we come at topics from, I'd be interested (probably in another thread) to hear your ideas for the best kinds of reform. Unless you already are talking about it in an existing thread?

[ginjawarrior]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

there is zero reason to believe that an unchecked Russia would lead to some likely conflict between NATO and Russia directly.

You'd have to be deliberately avoiding reading/watching anything from the Russians to believe that

Or just be lying

From the very beginning of the war when Russia accidentally posted their victory speech on ria novosti

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/brave-new-...on-of-ukraine/

A post from a couple of days ago

Originally Posted by ginjawarrior

Russian propagandist describing the revival of the russian empire, not the USSR but one that spans over 1000 years...

https://youtu.be/GqENT7ey0_M?si=DrihbrGUbb1sZTG9

Seriously you need to educate yourself a bit more about what's going on

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by ginjawarrior

You'd have to be deliberately avoiding reading/watching anything from the Russians to believe that

Or just be lying

From the very beginning of the war when Russia accidentally posted their victory speech on ria novosti

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/brave-new-...on-of-ukraine/

A post from a couple of days ago



Seriously you need to educate yourself a bit more about what's going on

Where have I heard the exmpression asbout a empire lasting a Thousand years before? Last time it only made it to 12.....

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Not really buying the neo-domino theory. Supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do but there is zero reason to believe that an unchecked Russia would lead to some likely conflict between NATO and Russia directly.

Your point about the money not really mattering is true. I also find the idea that war spending in Ukraine is somehow impacting domestic spending quite silly. Like, we were all around before the war and it's not like the government was eager to spend a bunch on domestic projects then. The war could end tomorrow and we're not going to see a dime more go to domestic programs doing any good.

BS,Putin has designs on several NATO members, the Baltic States being foremost.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Not really buying the neo-domino theory. Supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do but there is zero reason to believe that an unchecked Russia would lead to some likely conflict between NATO and Russia directly.

Weird way to phrase it. NATO keeps Russia in check in Europe, and does a fantastic job of preventing direct conflict between Russia and members of the alliance. That's why so many Warsaw Pact nations - intimately familiar with an unchecked Russia's penchant for direct conflict - rushed to join the "enemy" alliance as soon as they could. It's why Ukraine wants to join. It's why Finland and Sweden - having seen Russia's unchecked shenanigans on the rise again - have now rushed to join.

Which is not to say that an "unchecked" Russia would never enter into a direct conflict with NATO. An emboldened Russia, seeing weakness in Western Europe's reluctance to come to the aid of its non-NATO neighbors, might get the idea that NATO itself was weak, and no longer a check on Russian expansionism.

I think that risk was probably a lot greater before 2022. I think one of the many bitter ironies for Putin is that if he'd kept Russia in check for another decade or so, NATO may indeed have become weak enough that Russia could start picking away around the edges. Pull the same Hitler playbook nonsense on Hungary and Moldova that he pulled on Ukraine. Maybe even Poland.

Anyway, NATO was formed to keep Russia in check. Because an unchecked Russia gets into direct conflicts with any neighbor it thinks it can bully. Woe to Europe, the day Russia thinks NATO itself is weak enough to bully directly.