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Old 17th January 2022, 08:44 AM   #121
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
...and I'd argue between both of those and veneration.

At least in my own mind, an occupation which is venerated results in everyone in that occupation being assumed to be a great person regardless of their personal qualities and often in the face of contrary evidence.

A venerated occupation also seems to attract the attention of politicians like flies to ****. They'll try to get into photo-ops with members of the occupation (in the hope that they can enjoy some of the halo effect that goes along with it) and will often change legislation in order to pander to members of that occupation in order to enjoy their continued support.
I appreciate janitors, I admire the people who do cool space stuff at NASA, and I venerate nobody. I mean, "venerate"? That's for gods, which I don't believe in. I don't frequently mistake mortals --however good they are at their jobs, or however wonderful their jobs are-- for gods.
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Old 17th January 2022, 08:48 AM   #122
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It doesn't take rare skills to run into a burning building or get blown up by an IED, yet firefighters and veterans are generally treated with a certain degree of respect. There's more to a job's value than the rare skills required to perform them.
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Old 17th January 2022, 08:51 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
There may be cultures in which teachers are venerated, or at least appreciated ...

There are! In Cuba, teachers at all levels of the educational system are appreciated almost as much as doctors and nurses - not least due to the role they played in the literacy campaign immediately after the revolution.

In Teachers’ Day, well-deserved credit to the sector workers (CubaSi.cu, Dec 22, 2020)
National Assembly recognizes Cuban educators on the 60th anniversary of the Literacy Campaign (RadioCadenaAgramonte.cu, Dec 22, 2021)

Almost 20 years ago, I visited a Cuban school with a group of Europeans (mainly Scandinavians) on Dec 22, Teachers' Day. They had a party for both staff and students, and the students applauded when we arrived. Based on my experience with similar visits by foreigners to Danish schools, I was expecting at least some of the students to exhibit the attitude, 'Why should we care about the visit to our school of a group of old farts like that', but in spite of being on the lookout for this, I didn't see a single one.

My only complaint was that the music they played was mainly cubaton and very little salsa!

By the way, when you visit factories or institutions in Cuba, you are welcomed by the staff. For instance, when you visit an educational institution, you will not only get to meet the headmaster and some teachers but also cleaners, janitors and lunch ladies.
That would never happen in Denmark and probably not in most other Western countries, I think.
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Old 17th January 2022, 01:12 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I am of the opinion that cleaners and garbage collectors deserve a lot more veneration than they get.
I'm glad someone does the garbage collecting... but its a really easy job these days. The guy drives a truck. Lines up with the can, and presses a button. I actually know what they get paid here, and their union contracts state that they are paid a full 8 hours, even though most routes are done in about 6. So, appreciate that its done? Sure. But its no tougher of a job than working for doordash or similar.
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Old 17th January 2022, 05:45 PM   #125
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I'm glad it's easier for garbage collectors these days. However, lf you've ever worked somewhere with an incompetent janitor, you might admit that it's not an entirely unskilled job!
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Old 17th January 2022, 06:04 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I'm glad someone does the garbage collecting... but its a really easy job these days. The guy drives a truck. Lines up with the can, and presses a button. I actually know what they get paid here, and their union contracts state that they are paid a full 8 hours, even though most routes are done in about 6. So, appreciate that its done? Sure. But its no tougher of a job than working for doordash or similar.
Most of the hard work is done when the truck returns to the landfill with a full load. You don't see that part.
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Old 17th January 2022, 07:12 PM   #127
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It also has a surprisingly high injury/death rate.

7th most dangerous job in the US, with a mortality rate of 30 for every 100,000 workers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...%20that%20year.
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Old 18th January 2022, 05:44 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It also has a surprisingly high injury/death rate.

7th most dangerous job in the US, with a mortality rate of 30 for every 100,000 workers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...%20that%20year.
Braver than the cops, I wonder if I can get a thin brown line flag anywhere.
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Old 18th January 2022, 07:22 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I'm glad someone does the garbage collecting... but its a really easy job these days. The guy drives a truck. Lines up with the can, and presses a button. I actually know what they get paid here, and their union contracts state that they are paid a full 8 hours, even though most routes are done in about 6. So, appreciate that its done? Sure. But its no tougher of a job than working for doordash or similar.
Depends on where you are. There are certainly places that just put garbage bags out by the curb on the appropriate days. This is a city/suburban divide.
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Old 18th January 2022, 12:40 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It doesn't take rare skills to run into a burning building or get blown up by an IED, yet firefighters and veterans are generally treated with a certain degree of respect. There's more to a job's value than the rare skills required to perform them.
Veterans are grossly over valued in the US.
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Old 18th January 2022, 06:46 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Veterans are grossly over valued in the US.
The US has an issue that veterans returning from Vietnam were on the whole not treated very well, and many ended up destitute with untreated mental illness. That fact has permeated American culture, and the pendulum has swung the other way.
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Old 18th January 2022, 07:46 PM   #132
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Veterans are supremely valuable though. A cadre that has seen combat is critical to the success of any military arm.
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Old 18th January 2022, 07:49 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Veterans are supremely valuable though. A cadre that has seen combat is critical to the success of any military arm.
I think sarge was referring to veterans who have returned from active service, and I responded under that assumption.
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Old Yesterday, 06:26 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Veterans are supremely valuable though. A cadre that has seen combat is critical to the success of any military arm.
Not critical,actually. It is sufficient to have superbly trained teams with superior equipment. Before we were task saturated with two wars, the US Army had the finest combat training program ever crafted by any military structure. I’ve been to combat several times and I’ve been to all of our national training centers. These training centers duplicate the real stresses of combat exceptionally well. Matched with our generally excellent equipment, our Army pre-2007 would have prevailed in any war against any opponent in spite of being populated almost exclusively with non-combat experienced Soldiers.

But I count ‘veterans’ as a different breed than active service members. Veterans have earned the benefits they receive and have earned whatever gratitude a citizen feels for their service. Veterans are completely undeserving of the veneration they receive as a matter of course from a significant majority of Americans. As a group, veterans are no more honorable than any other similarly sized group of citizens, and their service to the nation generally does not exceed that of most other citizens.
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Old Yesterday, 06:32 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Veterans are supremely valuable though. A cadre that has seen combat is critical to the success of any military arm.
The last veterans who have fought similarly equipped and capable enemy troops are dying of old age. Our veterans are good at using our superior technology to stomp on people with filthy AKs and no shoes, but they have no experience in combat against anything but overmatched guerillas.

All our recent military experience has been in counter-insurgency in dirt poor corners of the world, not in heated combat against enemies also using modern technology and tactics. Which is probably for the best because all our serious adversaries have nuclear weapons and it's not going to matter who has the best tanks or small unit tactics if WWIII kicks off.
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Old Yesterday, 06:50 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
But I count ‘veterans’ as a different breed than active service members. Veterans have earned the benefits they receive and have earned whatever gratitude a citizen feels for their service. Veterans are completely undeserving of the veneration they receive as a matter of course from a significant majority of Americans. As a group, veterans are no more honorable than any other similarly sized group of citizens, and their service to the nation generally does not exceed that of most other citizens.
Pleased to see this articulated so well by a veteran. My own military experience is limited to a few years in the reserves almost 50 years ago, and I never came close to combat. My dad, grandfathers, uncles etc. all served (not necessarily voluntarily ) in the British military during and following WW2. I do have a level of respect for persons who completed a term of service and were honorably discharged. The reasons for a person choosing a military career are myriad and, quite frankly, rarely encompass the altruistic reasons implied in the public veneration of veterans. The "thank you for your service" phrase so commonly inserted into a discussion when a person is noted to be ex-military has IMO become trite and meaningless. It is uttered almost by rote and is an an obligatory toss off rather than said with any true feeling or respect.
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Old Yesterday, 07:11 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The "thank you for your service" phrase so commonly inserted into a discussion when a person is noted to be ex-military has IMO become trite and meaningless. It is uttered almost by rote and is an an obligatory toss off rather than said with any true feeling or respect.
It strikes me as mostly lip service, public displays of piety that aren't reflective of private practice. For a blessedly short time I worked for a "small business" (also unduly revered in America) owned by a very nasty man, who frequently waxed poetic about how great the military is and how everybody should honor veterans and active duty all the time, yada yada yada...while robbing a veteran fellow business owner blind on a crooked contract and padding expenses. This jerk still posts cringe-inducing crap like "oorah to the Marines!!!" and "I saw a soldier in uniform with eagles flying above him and it made me praise God for America!!!" on his business website but has no qualms about cheating the actual individuals when he can. He was never in the military himself, of course.
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Old Yesterday, 08:03 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Veterans are supremely valuable though. A cadre that has seen combat is critical to the success of any military arm.
Ah finally a reason for endless wars! Maybe we can start small wars with allies to keep both sides armed forces sharp.
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Old Yesterday, 04:19 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Veterans are supremely valuable though. A cadre that has seen combat is critical to the success of any military arm.
Why?
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Old Yesterday, 08:19 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The last veterans who have fought similarly equipped and capable enemy troops are dying of old age. Our veterans are good at using our superior technology to stomp on people with filthy AKs and no shoes, but they have no experience in combat against anything but overmatched guerillas.

All our recent military experience has been in counter-insurgency in dirt poor corners of the world, not in heated combat against enemies also using modern technology and tactics. Which is probably for the best because all our serious adversaries have nuclear weapons and it's not going to matter who has the best tanks or small unit tactics if WWIII kicks off.
Not exactly correct.

While the Iraqis in both wars there were grossly overmatched in equipment and training, it was a ‘real’ war of arms and maneuver. Tanks vs tanks, both sides with artillery, traditional formations, etc. That the US was manned by virtually no combat veterans but prevailed incredibly easily due to their superior training and equipment proves my point.
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Old Yesterday, 08:39 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why?
Veterans are not valuable in this regard unless the standing force is deficient in numbers or training.
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Old Yesterday, 10:28 PM   #142
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Cinematic auteurs.
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Old Today, 12:12 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I'm glad someone does the garbage collecting... but its a really easy job these days. The guy drives a truck. Lines up with the can, and presses a button. I actually know what they get paid here, and their union contracts state that they are paid a full 8 hours, even though most routes are done in about 6. So, appreciate that its done? Sure. But its no tougher of a job than working for doordash or similar.
Perhaps in your municipality that is the case.
In Philadelphia, and Upper Darby (the suburb I recently relocated to) it is done by physically handling the refuse and walking along behind the stinking truck. Often while dodging cars (both moving and parked), and through inclement weather.
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Old Today, 01:14 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Perhaps in your municipality that is the case.
In Philadelphia, and Upper Darby (the suburb I recently relocated to) it is done by physically handling the refuse and walking along behind the stinking truck. Often while dodging cars (both moving and parked), and through inclement weather.
I wonder why that is. I've lived in 3 areas, in 2 states, that have long since moved to the automatic style garbage pickup. I had assumed everywhere in the USA but the most rural of places had long sense gone that way.
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Old Today, 01:18 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Cinematic auteurs.
I'd actually argue that cinematography is the best it has ever been*. Original writing on the other hand has not kept up.

*if you mean an auteur as someone who makes a film and you can go "ah yeah clearly that was directed by so and so his fingerprints are evident". Plenty of those guys exist in the 21st century ie Villeneuve or Nolan.

ETA: christ I got this mixed up with the things that don't exist anymore thread. Yeah its a venerated field for sure at least by me.

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Old Today, 01:29 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I wonder why that is. I've lived in 3 areas, in 2 states, that have long since moved to the automatic style garbage pickup. I had assumed everywhere in the USA but the most rural of places had long sense gone that way.
If the city was not planned to permit garbage pick up but instead always just piled it in bags on the sidewalk there is no easy way to change to a can based system. You assume a certain amount of space to put out as well as store cans that is not really there in many cities.
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