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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial isssues

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Old 12th September 2018, 12:59 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You maintain that the cookbook in question claims to be a collection composed exclusively of traditional recipes based on indigenous domesticated species? Fascinating.
It doesn't appear that he made that claim, as fascinating as the prospect may be.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:04 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
But Harvard has explicitly stated that they did not consider her ancestry when they hired her.
They did, however, turn around and publish her ancestry after giving her the job. Not that it matters because...

Quote:
Did Warren ever claim she would bring a NA viewpoint to her job?
... Neither Harvard nor Warren actually thinks diversity in the workforce is important.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:06 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What does it mean to be "Native American", when applying for a job with an organization that's looking to make their workforce more diverse? Does it mean "effectively the same thing as European American"?
That depends on what the institution means by diversity, of course. Has it occured to you that many tribes/individuals have largely assimilated by this time? They may even wear blue jeans to the potluck.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:09 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I understand that's what they are saying. What I don't understand is why they did not consider this, given the stated desire for diversity in colleges and universities. I can understand if they are trying to say they would have hired her even if she had no Native American blood. That makes sense. And maybe you make the argument that diversity wasn't as big deal back then.
"Ethnicity isn't something we think about, here at Harvard. I have no idea what gave Warren the impression she should include it on her resume. What? We publish the ethnicity of our more diverse faculty members? Haha, oops! What a misunderstanding, for sure! 'Pocahontas'... That's a good one. Well played, but really, the President shouldn't take diversity so seriously. After all, Harvard doesn't."
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:12 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You maintain that the cookbook in question claims to be a collection composed exclusively of traditional recipes based on indigenous domesticated species? Fascinating.
Not sure how you get an entire cookbook when I explicitly singled out two recipes, but it looks like a personal problem I can't help you solve.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:14 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Ethnicity isn't something we think about, here at Harvard. I have no idea what gave Warren the impression she should include it on her resume. What? We publish the ethnicity of our more diverse faculty members? Haha, oops! What a misunderstanding, for sure! 'Pocahontas'... That's a good one. Well played, but really, the President shouldn't take diversity so seriously. After all, Harvard doesn't."
I fear you've overstepped here. You made good points earlier.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:16 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
That depends on what the institution means by diversity, of course.
One thing we've learned from this is that Harvard probably doesn't mean anything by it at all.

Quote:
Has it occured to you that many tribes/individuals have largely assimilated by this time? They may even wear blue jeans to the potluck.
The question is, did it occur to Harvard?
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:18 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not sure how you get an entire cookbook when I explicitly singled out two recipes, but it looks like a personal problem I can't help you solve.
You seemed to be arguing that it's not okay for descendants of Cherokee people to use anything other than traditional recipes/ingredients in their cookbooks. Sorry, I seem to have misunderstood.
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Last edited by d4m10n; 12th September 2018 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:20 PM   #169
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It bears mentioning that they were federally mandated diversity statistics. Don't know if that will change anyone's mind about anything in particular...
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:44 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
I fear you've overstepped here. You made good points earlier.
Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully people won't conflate my serious points with my more tongue-in-cheek posts. But - again - none of this is really very important.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:50 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You seemed to be arguing that it's not okay for descendants of Cherokee people to use anything other than traditional recipes/ingredients in their cookbooks. Sorry, I seem to have misunderstood.
Oh. Yeah, you misunderstood bigly. Even as misunderstandings go, that one is spectacularly addled. It's hard to imagine someone arriving at that degree of confusion without substantial conscious effort.

Nevertheless, apology accepted. Let us speak of it no more.

Last edited by theprestige; 12th September 2018 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:56 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully people won't conflate my serious points with my more tongue-in-cheek posts. But - again - none of this is really very important.
Point taken
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:36 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yet I have an even more superficial reason for thinking she would have a difficult time winning -her voice. It sounds like a caricature of a condescending grade school teacher's.
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I also find Hillary!'s monotone off-putting.
I think this may be partly a question of Americans not being used to a woman's voice in a position of authority (except in grade school, maybe), and partly women trying too hard to strike a tone that isn't called "bitchy," "strident" or other pejorative terms. Lots of people probably don't like Nancy Pelosi's voice either.

It's like, when white men started shaving their heads they all looked like skinheads to me. Now it doesn't strike me that way at all, as long as they've got at least a little bit of a tan. Shaved heads are just normal.

So maybe we should just find someone with likeable voice and train them up to be president.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:43 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I made no accusation against the cookbook itself, though I could have. My accusation is that Warren's contributions specifically represent a European appropriation of South American Native culture.

Again, none of this is very important. But consider: Two of her recipes call for tomatoes. These fruits were originally native to South America. They had worked their way north as far as Mesoamerica by the time the Spanish arrived in the New World. The Spanish took the tomato back to Europe, and later Europeans brought it to North America. Where... the Cherokee?... put it in their traditional crab mayonnaise?... and handed it down from generation to generation until it landed in Elizabeth Warren's hereditary recipe book?

There is a rather amusing through-line of European cultural appropriation in that narrative.



That advice doesn't really make sense at all in this context.

Frankly, I think this is all much ado about nothing. The only reason it's even being discussed is because of Trump's offensive bullying and name calling and his supporters need to defend his behavior. I am not saying you are a Trump supporter. I think you have your own reasons that don't include being part of the Trump base.

I don't give a diddley squat if Warren is part Cherokee or not. I don't care if her contributions to a cookbook in 1984 were handed down in her family or not. I do find it the height of hypocrisy, but unsurprising, that Trump would have the gall to call anyone out for lying.
Focusing on this when Trump tells provable lies day after day, month after month, year after year is nothing but a diversion from Trump's lies.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:46 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Frankly, I think this is all much ado about nothing. The only reason it's even being discussed is because of Trump's offensive bullying and name calling and his supporters need to defend his behavior.
Between believing a family legend as true and being an offensive name calling bully, the choice seems pretty easy.

Unless you really like offensive name calling bullies.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:17 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Did Warren ever claim she would bring a NA viewpoint to her job?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
.. Neither Harvard nor Warren actually thinks diversity in the workforce is important.
That's not answering my question.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:19 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Between believing a family legend as true and being an offensive name calling bully, the choice seems pretty easy.

Unless you really like offensive name calling bullies.
It should be. Sadly, about 35% of Americans prefer the offensive, name calling bully. He was sent by God, dontcha know?
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:21 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That's not answering my question.
Sorry. My response was more oblique than it needed to be.

To my knowledge, she did not.

I read your question as rhetorical, containing itself own answer. I then used it as if it answered itself, and drew a conclusion from it.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:29 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It should be. Sadly, about 35% of Americans prefer the offensive, name calling bully. He was sent by God, dontcha know?
Everybody prefers a name calling bully. It's just a question of whose ox is being gored, and who's pushing in the spear.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:32 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

We all know that technically correct is the best kind of correct but all this discussion of genetic correctness misses the point: Elizabeth Warren doesn't actually bring the benefits of a diverse (Native American) viewpoint to her job, and she knows it. That makes what she did wrong.
Quote:
Did Warren ever claim she would bring a NA viewpoint to her job?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sorry. My response was more oblique than it needed to be.

To my knowledge, she did not.

I read your question as rhetorical, containing itself own answer. I then used it as if it answered itself, and drew a conclusion from it.
So then, if Warren never claimed that she would "bring the benefits of a diverse (Native American) viewpoint to her job" then that does not make "what she did wrong." Glad we got that cleared up.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:33 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Everybody prefers a name calling bully. It's just a question of whose ox is being gored, and who's pushing in the spear.
Wrong. You're obviously projecting.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:34 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Everybody prefers a name calling bully. It's just a question of whose ox is being gored, and who's pushing in the spear.
I don't. I would never back a candidate that behaves the way Trump does. I prefer candidates that behave like adults.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:36 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't. I would never back a candidate that behaves the way Trump does. I prefer candidates that behave like are adults.
This will be sufficient.
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Old 12th September 2018, 05:35 PM   #184
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I'm just glad we cleared up that the cookbook was zero bad, because it's just fine for people of mixed genes to mix memes.

Looking forward to the next round of baseless accusations, though.
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Old 12th September 2018, 05:40 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm just glad we cleared up that the cookbook was zero bad, because it's just fine for people of mixed genes to mix memes.

Looking forward to the next round of baseless accusations, though.
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Old 12th September 2018, 05:59 PM   #186
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Why are we talking about this? Ignore the name and find a good attack ad for her opponent. The way you deal with this is find everyone who is talking about it and then find who they had affairs with, their DUI's, their kids in rehab, wife's debt hiding and character assassinate the **** out of them. Democrats need to stop being wimps.

They learned nothing from 2004. Why the hell can any member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth show their faces in public? Everyone of them should have been choked on their dirty laundry. You want to talk about John Kerry's service, we'll talk about your affair.

You say, Hillary gave uranium to the Russians? We find the guy from whom you got a hand job and drugs from to hide your sexuality and self medicate your PTSD.

Hannity wouldn't grouse about Uranium One if the penalty for bringing it up was CNN finding (with help) every intern who worked at Fox News who he put a hand on.

Warren shouldn't worry about being called on her lineage. She needs to think about how she destroys anyone who brings it up.
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Old 12th September 2018, 06:26 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Everybody prefers a name calling bully. It's just a question of whose ox is being gored, and who's pushing in the spear.
No.
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Old 12th September 2018, 06:30 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
It bears mentioning that they were federally mandated diversity statistics. Don't know if that will change anyone's mind about anything in particular...
Those federally mandated statistics that nobody at Harvard gives any consideration to at hiring time?
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Old 12th September 2018, 06:52 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Those federally mandated statistics that nobody at Harvard gives any consideration to at hiring time?
The only way that would have had any importance is if they hired Warren over somebody else more qualified because of her (alleged) NA heritage. If they would have hired her anyway, it means nothing.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:06 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The only way that would have had any importance is if they hired Warren over somebody else more qualified because of her (alleged) NA heritage. If they would have hired her anyway, it means nothing.
On the contrary. It tells us a lot about the whole issue of diversity hiring in the US.

It's less about Warren specifically, and more about what Warren's story tells us about diversity policy: It's crap.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:08 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the contrary. It tells us a lot about the whole issue of diversity hiring in the US.

It's less about Warren specifically, and more about what Warren's story tells us about diversity policy: It's crap.
Ok, sure, but now tell us more about how everybody prefers a name calling bully.

We have much to learn, and you seem like the perfect teacher. School us.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:13 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Why stop at humans? Let's pay the remaining Bison reparations.
Recipe?
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:21 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Ok, sure, but now tell us more about how everybody prefers a name calling bully.

We have much to learn, and you seem like the perfect teacher. School us.
There's the bully. I'll see what I can do about the name calling.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:25 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post


...but seriously what is wrong with claiming your ethnic heritage?

My wife is only around 1˝ to 2% Native American (according to 23andme, depending on statistical confidence level) but she is nevertheless a card-carrying member of her tribe. I cannot know with certainty whether this helped her win acceptance from Harvard, but it probably didn't hurt.

Those of you who've never lived in Oklahoma may well be surprised at the number of people here who claim sone tribal affiliation, either formally or else as part of longstanding family lore.
23+and other such services know that being desirous of First Immigrant status is a thing. So they tell me I am 2% too, with my C5Cxx mitochondrial genes. FIs are C1,2,3, and 7. All C';s are from east Asia. But some migrated across the land bridge, others went west to Europe. I am not Indian, I am Lithuanian. Unless when the Aliens in their UFOs were done probing Yata-ye they dropped him off on the wrong continent.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:37 PM   #195
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My niece is 1/4 Mexican. By her senior year in high school all of us had forgotten about having put her down as 'Mexican' on some papers back in elementary school. Turned out she was a National Hispanic Scholar. She got recruited by all the BIG IVY schools. She took the scholarship to Cornell. (quarter Mexican, but half Lithuanian )

So yeah, you've got a long way to go to convince some of us there is no preferential treatment for minorities.

and ooo: 1/4 Mexican makes her somewhere from 5-20% Injun. Yata-hey Elizabeth !
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:39 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's the bully. I'll see what I can do about the name calling.
Please do. We are all exited, I'm sure.
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Old 12th September 2018, 08:03 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
23+and other such services know that being desirous of First Immigrant status is a thing. So they tell me I am 2% too, with my C5Cxx mitochondrial genes.
Have you considered simply coping with the idea that some of your many ancestors were aboriginal to the Americas?

(It's not all that bad, unless you were hoping to join a white nationalist movement.)
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Old 13th September 2018, 03:56 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
My niece is 1/4 Mexican. By her senior year in high school all of us had forgotten about having put her down as 'Mexican' on some papers back in elementary school. Turned out she was a National Hispanic Scholar. She got recruited by all the BIG IVY schools. She took the scholarship to Cornell. (quarter Mexican, but half Lithuanian )

So yeah, you've got a long way to go to convince some of us there is no preferential treatment for minorities.

and ooo: 1/4 Mexican makes her somewhere from 5-20% Injun. Yata-hey Elizabeth !
Is anyone here claiming that? I think we all know preferential treatment exists. It all goes back to when slaves were preferred to have one drop of black blood, blacks were preferred to live in other neighborhoods, and even currently when latinos are preferred to be on the other side of a border wall and blacks are preferred to not be driving or hanging out where they appear out of place.
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Old 13th September 2018, 05:29 AM   #199
kellyb
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Have you considered simply coping with the idea that some of your many ancestors were aboriginal to the Americas?

(It's not all that bad, unless you were hoping to join a white nationalist movement.)
Well, that's just silly compared to the "rigged, lying genetic test" theory.
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:22 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the contrary. It tells us a lot about the whole issue of diversity hiring in the US.

It's less about Warren specifically, and more about what Warren's story tells us about diversity policy: It's crap.
Well, it gives you a snapshot of diversity hiring at Harvard in the early nineties. I'd hesitate to claim nothing has changed in the last 20 years.
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