|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#41 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,946
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#42 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 42,491
|
I agree, though I now question the usefulness of the protest. Whne the debate becomes about the method of protest, rather then what the protest was meant to call attention to, that form of protest has probably outlived it usefulness.
But the players right to do so I defend 1000%. |
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#43 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 816
|
You know, it's not just don't trust Politifact as a source, but I simply don't believe 50% of houses owned slaves in two states. I think most people would reject this out of hand. This is saying people in these states were just as likely to have a slave as not, and that simply doesn't fit any kind of society I've ever heard of, except for maybe inside the walls in old Rome. I've looked around and found a lot of varied numbers, all of them far less than this. So, I'm gonna give Politifact four Pinocchios for this one.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#44 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,246
|
|
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years. Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#45 |
Evil Fokker
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,906
|
It’s based on census data.
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html You wanna rethink those Pinocchios? |
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun! Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#46 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,780
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#47 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,581
|
It's based on the 1860 census:
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html?fref=gc |
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#48 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 9,165
|
|
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#49 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 816
|
I'm convinced there's a trick here, I just have to figure out what it is. Mississippi is a pretty big state and I've driven the length of it many times. In any case, the Confederacy had a draft, which means there were a whole lot of soldiers fighting for them who didn't want to fight for anything, which means they weren't fighting for slavery.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#50 |
High Priest of Ed
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,372
|
|
__________________
Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#51 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,249
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#52 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 816
|
First, those in here and all over the left who say the Confederate soldiers fought for slavery during the Civil War is a generalization that no one can prove because it isn't true. That is what I've been attempting to illustrate.
Second, how many in the South were charged with treason after the Civil War? I know there were some the North who were charged for various collaborations with the Rebels, but I don't think any of the Confederates were charged with treason. So, no monuments of Southerners would be monuments to treason, since they weren't traitors. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#53 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,581
|
I don't disagree that a lot of them were just fighting what they saw as "those northern invaders". I don't think it's relevant, though. The sort of people who protest the statues coming down are invariably racist as hell. I live in the south and know some of those people. None of them are normal and merely mis-educated about the Jim Crow history of the statues.
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#54 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 816
|
The problem is that no Democrat wants to take down all of the statues and other memorials to FDR, who actually put Japanese in concentration camps. That sounds like some extreme racism to me, yet he gets a free pass. Why is that? Why aren't Democrats demanding FDR be erased from all public property?
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#55 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,234
|
I've been mostly a lurker in this thread until now but this post really got me. After being proven factually wrong by other posters again and again, you've now confirmed that you have been pretty much just making up most of your stuff as you go along. And that you determine truth vs falsehood based primarily on what you would like to believe. Whatever suits your whim and appears to support your pre-existing political views.
Honestly, are you being satirical? It is often difficult to tell on the Internet. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#56 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,581
|
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#57 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 17,611
|
Are there any FDR memorials raised because he interned the Japanese? The answer is no. There are memorials in spite of the fact FDR interned the Japanese. The memorials are there because he saved much of our civilization from Nazism and the tyranny of Japanese occupation (and it was tyrannical).
There are no memorials to Robert E. Lee because he was a great officer in the Army Corps of Engineers. There are only memorials to Robert E. Lee because he committed treason by wagging war against the United States (the definition in the Constitution) for the purpose of perpetuating slavery. Had there been no Civil War, Robert E. Lee would likely have a building in the Engineering Department at West Point named after him and that would have been his only contribution to history. Memorials to Lee, Jackson, Davis are only there because they committed treason against their nation to perpetuate slavery. You may have an argument for memorials to common soldiers, duped into betraying their country for slavery, but even they, still betrayed their country for slavery. Let's not confuse "because of" and "in spite of". |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#58 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,711
|
Technically, they were traitors. What do you think the US gov't should have done? Charged the entire South with treason and hanged them or imprisoned them all? This was not possible. Additionally, Lincoln wanted to heal the wounds of the country, not inflame them with treason trials. A general parole was given upon the surrender of Lee at Appomattox:
Quote:
However, a judge indicted Lee and others on charges of treason:
Quote:
Jefferson Davis was tried for Treason. He was acquitted because his defense successfully argued that the Constitution mentions no U.S. citizens, only citizens of a state. Therefore, Davis could not have committed treason against the U.S. Pres. Johnson granted all Confederate insurgents pardons in 1868, thus prohibiting any charges of treason for their part in the war. There is no question that the Confederates were technically traitors. That none was ever convicted was due to politics and the surrender agreement. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#59 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,711
|
Re the highlighted part: Lee did not fight to perpetuate slavery in and of itself; he fought to maintain the concept of states' rights with slavery being a part of that. Few know that Lee was actually offered the command of the Union Armies by Lincoln, but he could not fight against his beloved Virginia and resigned his US Army commission.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#60 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,659
|
|
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network! Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/ |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#61 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 816
|
No, it just means I have enough experience not to trust Politifact. Show me where I've been proved "factually wrong by other posters again and again". Why would a skeptic like myself believe half of the houses in Mississippi had slaves because Politifact said so? They said, no, it wasn't something like 1.4%, it was 50%. I haven't been wrong about anything as far as I know. If you actually read what I have written, I didn't say half of the houses in Mississippi didn't have slaves, I said I didn't believe it. That comes from being a skeptic, you know.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#62 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 816
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#63 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 17,611
|
That is a lie of omission or simply willful ignorance. Lee's association with slavery is well known and not hard to research. He knew full well why Virginia betrayed the nation. He could have chosen the path of Winfield Scott (also a Virginian) but instead he, fully informed, with the knowledge of Virginia's Articles of Succession chose to betray his country. He is only memorialized for his a crime for which justice demanded he die but was spared out of expediencies.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#64 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,711
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#65 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,711
|
It was the fear that the Federal gov't could interfere with any of the rights designated to the states specifically. They feared that the faster growing in population and wealthy northern states, plus the emerging western states could impose their wills over those of the South. I do not deny that slavery was the overriding concern of these "rights" that they feared would be taken from them. But it was not the only right they feared losing.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#66 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 39,858
|
This is now getting idiotic. You repeated a bunch of lies and now are painted into a corner so are pulling the Whataboutism card.
Hint: List the accomplishments of Jefferson Davis that merit a statue. > Southern nationalist/separatist who headed the Confederacy. > Robert E. Lee - leader of the armies of the CSA. > Stonewall Jackson - great warrior for the confederacy. You can find other factoids about the gentlemen, I'm sure. They didn't spring up out of nowhere in 1860. But the point is "you can find" refers to the general "you". You, personally, before you now rush off to research it, don't know a damned thing about any of them except for their connections to the Confederacy. Nor can most of the rubes out there talking about honoring them for their noble lives. It's all a bunch of horse **** and they want to honor them for their rebellion in the cause of holding title to human beings! Now, even with your woeful knowledge of history and current events, I'm gonna bet you can come up with no less than ten other things that Franklin Delano Roosevelt did. And Jefferson. And Washington. But the Whataboutists (direct descendants of the Know Nothings) clutch at that cheap distraction technique. And the funny thing is watching YOU try to condemn FDRs internment policy! You probably, if you'd ever given it any thought, supported it. Liberals and Progressives roundly condemn the policy for what it was. Conservatives and reactionaries think "well, it was a good start". |
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#67 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,711
|
I tell ya what, when you have a teaching degree in history like I do, you can lecture me on "lies of omission" or "willful ignorance".
You fail to understand that during Lee's time, most Americans identified as a Virginian, New Yorker, Georgian, or whatever state they were a citizen of first and as an "American" (in the national sense) second.
Quote:
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#68 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,659
|
|
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network! Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/ |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#69 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,400
|
IMO, there is a BIG difference between statues of well known confederate generals, and a more general "least we forget" kind of monument to the fallen soldiers.
In Germany you won't find statues of Nazi generals, but you can find shrines and monuments for the ordinary soldier. Having said that, a monument to the fallen should probably include soldiers from both the North and South. I assume there are some like that. Would I be corect in saying that there are no plans to remove these type of monuments? |
__________________
Go sell crazy someplace else we're all stocked up here |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#70 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 982
|
|
__________________
Proud Dirtbag Leftist. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#71 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,711
|
There is a difference between honoring a statue of Lee the General of the Confederate forces and a statue honoring the civilian Lee who led and helped Washington (later) and Lee University grow into the institution it is today. For that he deserves to be honored:
Lee
Quote:
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#72 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,711
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#73 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,659
|
|
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network! Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/ |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#74 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 982
|
|
__________________
Proud Dirtbag Leftist. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#75 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,711
|
They feared they would lose the right to govern themselves as they saw Congress being dominated by northern and, eventually, western states. This fear of a strong central government and weak states is still strong in the Southern states.
ETA: Please remember that I did state earlier that "I do not deny that slavery was the overriding concern of these "rights" that they feared would be taken from them. But it was not the only right they feared losing." |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#76 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,711
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#77 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,581
|
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#78 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,581
|
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#79 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 17,611
|
Ooo...Ahhh… an argument from authority. I'm glad no child I know is subjected to your faulty administrations. Your argument falls flat because Winfield Scott knew his true duty and did it. You're arguing Lee should be memorialized for his failure to do what he swore to as an officer.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#80 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,454
|
You've bought the lies from the same people who installed the Confederate statues. There has never been convincing evidence of what you claim. Every state that seceded and joined the CSA did so because of the issue of slavery and said so. They knew that the practice was doomed as more states were admitted to the Union and the population disparity between the north and south continued to expand.
Anybody who has told you different is a liar or completely ignorant of actual facts. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|