ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , lying charges , Russia conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

Reply
Old 6th August 2018, 06:25 AM   #361
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,910
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So can we ship all Trump supporters to Siberia - for their own sake, of course?
A workable solution.

However, I'm getting increasingly worried that the only way you guys can save your country is a new civil war. The Trumpists are simply too many to just disappear, and the differences of opinion are not solvable as I see it. Hell, the Trumpists don't even acknowlege reality. I'm starting to think you're going to need a blank slate to have a chance.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 06:27 AM   #362
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Trump's "red wave."
Don't dismiss the prospect.

Unless the Democratic Party comes up with some attractive candidates and policies then there's a very real risk that the GOP will strengthen their position in the senate considerably - if they get all 10 seats where a Democrat is the incumbent but where President Trump carried the state, they could have a supermajority.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 06:28 AM   #363
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A workable solution.

However, I'm getting increasingly worried that the only way you guys can save your country is a new civil war. The Trumpists are simply too many to just disappear, and the differences of opinion are not solvable as I see it. Hell, the Trumpists don't even acknowlege reality. I'm starting to think you're going to need a blank slate to have a chance.
I just watched the first episode of Ed Balls' Travels in Trumpland. He seems to have taken a leaf out of Louis Theroux's book and gone in with a non-judgemental open mind.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bdpvh5
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 06:31 AM   #364
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,910
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I just watched the first episode of Ed Balls' Travels in Trumpland. He seems to have taken a leaf out of Louis Theroux's book and gone in with a non-judgemental open mind.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bdpvh5
I'm seriously not interested in another anthropological and empathetic essay on "Why-oh-why would these fine stand up people vote for Trump? Well, there may be rational reasons..." It's all bollocks. We all knew who Trump was before the election, and we all know what the people who voted for him and still support him are.

They might be lovely to their neighbours and help quadriplegic cats in their free time, but they voted for a racist and proto-fascist, and they are comfortable with their choice.

**** 'em.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Last edited by uke2se; 6th August 2018 at 06:34 AM.
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 07:20 AM   #365
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm seriously not interested in another anthropological and empathetic essay on "Why-oh-why would these fine stand up people vote for Trump? Well, there may be rational reasons..." It's all bollocks. We all knew who Trump was before the election, and we all know what the people who voted for him and still support him are.

They might be lovely to their neighbours and help quadriplegic cats in their free time, but they voted for a racist and proto-fascist, and they are comfortable with their choice.

**** 'em.
A civil war simply would not work. The overwhelming majority of military and law enforcement are firmly behind President Trump and he has tried to ensure that they have all the funding they require and/or all the ex-military hardware they require and by pardoning Sheriff Joe he's also given a clear signal that breaking the law in a way that aligns with his wishes is consequence free.

Any popular uprising would be immediately and brutally put down.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 07:50 AM   #366
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,599
A trailer for "Active Measures - A conspiracy hiding in plain sight" documenting Trump's ties to the Russian mob, to be released August 31:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 07:51 AM   #367
The Great Zaganza
Illuminator
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,502
There won't be a Civil War, since the divide is along class, not state lines.
What we will get is more and more violence against the top 5% and law enforcement until the militant poor are a sufficient force in politics to shift the balance of power away from the super-rich and towards massive wealth redistribution.
Alternatively, we will enter into another war that will be so costly in terms of wealth and lives that it will force the government to take away the 1% er's money to pay for it.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 07:56 AM   #368
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 12,791
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
In other news, a strange whirring sound has been reported in Simi Valley, CA.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 08:07 AM   #369
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,599
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Don't dismiss the prospect.

Unless the Democratic Party comes up with some attractive candidates and policies then there's a very real risk that the GOP will strengthen their position in the senate considerably - if they get all 10 seats where a Democrat is the incumbent but where President Trump carried the state, they could have a supermajority.

I dare say that you know virtually nothing about the Congressional Democratic candidates except for the very small few who make national news like Ocasio-Cortez and a few sitting Congressmen. But neither do the vast majority of Americans; they simply don't get much attention even in local news. It's particularly annoying that you keep saying the Democrats lack attractive policies. No, what we lack is a news media that thinks that's important.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 08:26 AM   #370
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
It's particularly annoying that you keep saying the Democrats lack attractive policies.
I'd say that Democratic Party policies aren't that attractive.

Take the Democratic Party response to the rust belt. Their approach is to offer to retrain people for new jobs and to advise people that they may have to relocate to get a good job - and even then it may not a certainty that the person will get a job. That sounds risky and hard. President Trump had a much more popular message - he'll get your old job back for you. For sure it's a flat-out lie but it's what people want to hear.

Or how about Democratic Party policy on taxation. The Democratic Party would like to move towards a balanced budget by increasing taxes on those people best able to pay them whilst at the same time reducing military spending and making more money available for health and welfare. The GOP policy is far more attractive. They will reduce taxes until an economic miracle becomes inevitable and everyone becomes rich. For sure it's a flat-out lie but it's what people want to hear.

How about healthcare ? The Democratic Party would like to properly fund the ACA but that's expensive and is running into headwinds because there are a lot of people out there who don't want spongers (a.k.a. anyone other than themselves) benefiting and who say their insurance premiums rise (even though they always rose before and at least now they actually have some functionally useful insurance). President Trump has promised much better healthcare for less money which is a much more popular message. For sure it's a flat-out lie but it's what people want to hear.

Democratic Party policies are well thought out and are very often perfectly feasible. They also exist in the real world which means there are complications and grey areas which make people uncomfortable. The GOP OTOH offer simple (albeit completely unachievable) solutions to complex problems - it's an enticing message.

In order to lose weight, would you rather eat less, improve your nutrition and do more exercise or would you rather take a magic pill which simply melts the extra weight away while you sleep ? That first option sounds hard people would much rather take the second option - even though it's a complete con.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 08:51 AM   #371
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 21,075
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
In order to lose weight, would you rather eat less, improve your nutrition and do more exercise or would you rather take a magic pill which simply melts the extra weight away while you sleep ? That first option sounds hard people would much rather take the second option - even though it's a complete con.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 09:03 AM   #372
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,599
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'd say that Democratic Party policies aren't that attractive.

Take the Democratic Party response to the rust belt. Their approach is to offer to retrain people for new jobs and to advise people that they may have to relocate to get a good job - and even then it may not a certainty that the person will get a job. That sounds risky and hard. President Trump had a much more popular message - he'll get your old job back for you. For sure it's a flat-out lie but it's what people want to hear.

Or how about Democratic Party policy on taxation. The Democratic Party would like to move towards a balanced budget by increasing taxes on those people best able to pay them whilst at the same time reducing military spending and making more money available for health and welfare. The GOP policy is far more attractive. They will reduce taxes until an economic miracle becomes inevitable and everyone becomes rich. For sure it's a flat-out lie but it's what people want to hear.

How about healthcare ? The Democratic Party would like to properly fund the ACA but that's expensive and is running into headwinds because there are a lot of people out there who don't want spongers (a.k.a. anyone other than themselves) benefiting and who say their insurance premiums rise (even though they always rose before and at least now they actually have some functionally useful insurance). President Trump has promised much better healthcare for less money which is a much more popular message. For sure it's a flat-out lie but it's what people want to hear.

Democratic Party policies are well thought out and are very often perfectly feasible. They also exist in the real world which means there are complications and grey areas which make people uncomfortable. The GOP OTOH offer simple (albeit completely unachievable) solutions to complex problems - it's an enticing message.

In order to lose weight, would you rather eat less, improve your nutrition and do more exercise or would you rather take a magic pill which simply melts the extra weight away while you sleep ? That first option sounds hard people would much rather take the second option - even though it's a complete con.
You are wrong; polls show that Democratic policies on taxes, health care, abortion and a host of other important issues are more popular with the American public than the Republicans' policies. It appears that "other reasons" explain the Republicans' grip on power, and it's one of the clearest signs that our democracy is not healthy.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 09:26 AM   #373
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You are wrong; polls show that Democratic policies on taxes, health care, abortion and a host of other important issues are more popular with the American public than the Republicans' policies. It appears that "other reasons" explain the Republicans' grip on power, and it's one of the clearest signs that our democracy is not healthy.
The policies themselves may be popular (when they have been explained and presented in a non-partisan fashion), if so the Democratic Party has done a terrible job marketing them.

My mind goes back to all those people who resolutely opposed to Obamacare and were worried about the impact Obamacare might have on their much loved ACA coverage.

People may claim that they are not in favour of the GOP's tax plans, but they still vote GOP and are still in favour of low taxes.

Quote:
More voters who have heard about President Donald Trump and congressional Republicans' plans to overhaul the tax code back the proposal than oppose it ó but support declined last week following the release of the House GOP bill.

That's according to a new POLITICO/Morning Consult poll that also shows the proposed benefits to all Americans and small businesses are more popular than those for large corporations and the wealthy.

Among registered voters who said they have seen, read or heard about the tax proposal, 45 percent support the proposal, down from 48 percent last week. The percentage of voters who have heard about the proposal who oppose it held steady at 36 percent, the poll shows.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...ositive-244715

So while people in the abstract may be in favour of raising taxes on those best best able to afford to pay them, this doesn't seem to translate into support at the polls.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 10:09 AM   #374
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,270
The thing that puzzles me most about the "meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary" is, why the **** do you even go to Russia to get "dirt" on Hillary Clinton? For cripes sake, aren't there enough manufactured domestic outrages you could use? Even if it is an issue of "Hillary made a shady deal with the Russians" that you are hoping to hear, can't you find a domestic source of that information? I mean, see Uranium 1.

You would hope that, if you are going to the Russians, you are going for more than just "dirt." It better be more like, "We can tell you about Hillary's role in X activity."

What next? Arrange for a meeting with the Chinese to get the scuttlebutt?
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 10:39 AM   #375
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 18,387
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The thing that puzzles me most about the "meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary" is, why the **** do you even go to Russia to get "dirt" on Hillary Clinton? For cripes sake, aren't there enough manufactured domestic outrages you could use? Even if it is an issue of "Hillary made a shady deal with the Russians" that you are hoping to hear, can't you find a domestic source of that information? I mean, see Uranium 1.

You would hope that, if you are going to the Russians, you are going for more than just "dirt." It better be more like, "We can tell you about Hillary's role in X activity."

What next? Arrange for a meeting with the Chinese to get the scuttlebutt?
A horde of hackers at their command.

ETA: Its the new Watergate Break-In tools!
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

Last edited by LSSBB; 6th August 2018 at 10:40 AM.
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 10:43 AM   #376
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,561
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The thing that puzzles me most about the "meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary" is, why the **** do you even go to Russia to get "dirt" on Hillary Clinton? For cripes sake, aren't there enough manufactured domestic outrages you could use? Even if it is an issue of "Hillary made a shady deal with the Russians" that you are hoping to hear, can't you find a domestic source of that information? I mean, see Uranium 1.

You would hope that, if you are going to the Russians, you are going for more than just "dirt." It better be more like, "We can tell you about Hillary's role in X activity."

What next? Arrange for a meeting with the Chinese to get the scuttlebutt?
They were hoping to get a video of Clinton paying prostitutes to pee on the bed Trump slept in during his Moscow pageant stay. You know, the night he didn't stay overnight, but did?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 11:05 AM   #377
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 21,075
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The thing that puzzles me most about the "meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary" is, why the **** do you even go to Russia to get "dirt" on Hillary Clinton?
Because the Russians had hacked the DNC.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 11:07 AM   #378
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,270
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Because the Russians had hacked the DNC.
They didn't have a mole in the DNC?
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 11:32 AM   #379
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 18,387
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
They didn't have a mole in the DNC?
Do you have a name?
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 11:48 AM   #380
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,098
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
They didn't have a mole in the DNC?
Is that a serious question? I'll assume it's sarcasm.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 11:50 AM   #381
Jim_MDP
Philosopher
 
Jim_MDP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: N.Cal/S.Or
Posts: 6,748
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So can we ship all Trump supporters to Siberia - for their own sake, of course?

That's just mean.

The gen pop Trump supporters are likely to be farmers and mechanics... and some of them are coal miners (see what I did there? ).

I have no problem with them living in cities or farming areas... in Russia.
__________________
----------------------
Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything.

"Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust.
"Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.

Last edited by Jim_MDP; 6th August 2018 at 12:11 PM.
Jim_MDP is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 12:20 PM   #382
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,270
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is that a serious question? I'll assume it's sarcasm.
Why?

You really don't think if there were real "dirt" on Clinton in DNC emails, that someone wouldn't be ready to leak it?

I mean, we saw a lot of the DNC emails, and there was nothing in them. Oooo, the DNC preferred the democratic candidate Clinton over the Independent Sanders. That wasn't even news.

But were the DNC actually talking about something meaningful, do you think it would have been kept quiet?
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 12:34 PM   #383
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,005
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I dare say that you know virtually nothing about the Congressional Democratic candidates except for the very small few who make national news like Ocasio-Cortez and a few sitting Congressmen. But neither do the vast majority of Americans; they simply don't get much attention even in local news. It's particularly annoying that you keep saying the Democrats lack attractive policies. No, what we lack is a news media that thinks that's important.
The DOn also does not get that people can be motivated to vote AGAINST something just as strongly as they can to vote FOR something. There are lots of people who might not be thrilled by the Democratic candidate n their district, but as so scared and disgusted by Trump they will vote for the Dem anyway.
Anyway, I think The Don has written off the US as a democracy;where he is mistaken is thinking that the end of Democracy in the US will not have horrendous consequences for Democracy world wide.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 12:42 PM   #384
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,005
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm seriously not interested in another anthropological and empathetic essay on "Why-oh-why would these fine stand up people vote for Trump? Well, there may be rational reasons..." It's all bollocks. We all knew who Trump was before the election, and we all know what the people who voted for him and still support him are.

They might be lovely to their neighbours and help quadriplegic cats in their free time, but they voted for a racist and proto-fascist, and they are comfortable with their choice.

**** 'em.
Hate to say it, but you come off like a Mirror/Bizarro version of a Trump supporter with this rant.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 12:43 PM   #385
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,098
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Why?

You really don't think if there were real "dirt" on Clinton in DNC emails, that someone wouldn't be ready to leak it?

I mean, we saw a lot of the DNC emails, and there was nothing in them. Oooo, the DNC preferred the democratic candidate Clinton over the Independent Sanders. That wasn't even news.

But were the DNC actually talking about something meaningful, do you think it would have been kept quiet?
We know the Russians hacked the DNC emails. Any reason you're still going with the cover story, the DNC leaked their own?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 12:46 PM   #386
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,327
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The thing that puzzles me most about the "meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary" is, why the **** do you even go to Russia to get "dirt" on Hillary Clinton? For cripes sake, aren't there enough manufactured domestic outrages you could use? Even if it is an issue of "Hillary made a shady deal with the Russians" that you are hoping to hear, can't you find a domestic source of that information? I mean, see Uranium 1.

You would hope that, if you are going to the Russians, you are going for more than just "dirt." It better be more like, "We can tell you about Hillary's role in X activity."

What next? Arrange for a meeting with the Chinese to get the scuttlebutt?
Having access to DNC emails is something.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 01:08 PM   #387
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 23,711
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The thing that puzzles me most about the "meeting with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary" is, why the **** do you even go to Russia to get "dirt" on Hillary Clinton?
To me, this appears to be the Russians coming to the Trump team bearing gifts rather than anyone going to them.

Quote:
You would hope that, if you are going to the Russians, you are going for more than just "dirt." It better be more like, "We can tell you about Hillary's role in X activity."
Fredo's "if it's what you say it is" strongly suggests that he's been told earlier what it was.


At the time, IIRC, there was a thing going on about Clinton getting vast sums from Bill Browder and George Soros via Russia : I'd bet they were being promised official documentation proving it.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 01:29 PM   #388
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,599
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Why?

You really don't think if there were real "dirt" on Clinton in DNC emails, that someone wouldn't be ready to leak it?

I mean, we saw a lot of the DNC emails, and there was nothing in them. Oooo, the DNC preferred the democratic candidate Clinton over the Independent Sanders. That wasn't even news.

But were the DNC actually talking about something meaningful, do you think it would have been kept quiet?

The significance of both the Hillary emails and the DNC emails is that Trump and his surrogates kept insisting that they revealed not just outrageous scandals but all sorts of crimes. That was, of course, an easy sell to people who had been subjected to decades of Clinton character assassination already and wouldn't have voted for her anyway, but I have to think that given the media saturation of that (instead of policies), "lock her up" probably had an effect on a lot of low-information voters.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 6th August 2018 at 01:32 PM.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 10:06 PM   #389
AlaskaBushPilot
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,981
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
The significance of both the Hillary emails and the DNC emails is that Trump and his surrogates...
Again, the largest block of voters - independents - is ignored with this time-tested false dichotomy in American politics.

Liberal vs conservative, democrat vs republican, Trump and not-Trump.

By "poofing" everyone else out of existence except the loathsome Trump, the only possible motivation surrounding Hillary's crimes are slanderous lies by Trumpists.

Welcome to reality where Bernie Supporters, Greens, Libertarians, Independents, and a whole lot of others who don't support Trump as their first choice but who are really concerned a presidential candidate was running a private non-secured server instead of the state-provided security network. It was clearly to avoid FOIA and manage Clinton Foundation donations and U.S. State Department business like weapons sales. Transfer of Uranium and other listed products from various prohibition lists.

We don't want either democrats or republicans to be doing that. McCain and Clinton - lock them both up, that's a great start. Then move on to plenty more. I am down with that. I don't care what party they are.

Again, as an independent it is incredible to me watching the Democrats self-immolate in yet another election this November with this failed strategy. There is no core democratic message. Not to labor, not to blacks, not to hispanics or women or any of their traditional bases. Bill Clinton had a message to everyone: it's the economy, stupid. Trump is actually playing a Bill Clinton card, and the stupid Democratic leadership has consistently risen in opposition to this winning Bill Clinton message.

It is probably too late for contrition over Trump-Russia. The Democrats bet on the wrong horse and as it gets closer to November guess who has all the power to release every page the FBI and CIA are concealing: Trump.

The problem with engaging on Trump-Russia is that the people arguing "collusion" clearly don't believe what they are trying to insinuate. The artful language of "collusion" instead of citing a crime. There is no crime called "collusion". Presidential candidates are expected to show a portfolio of direct experience with foreign countries and their major business/political figures. Really, this pretense is so peurile the peddlers can't be this stupid.

We've lost trillions on wars for Israel so if you are going to pick a power that deserves scrutiny, there you go. Saudi Arabia, my God why are we in league with Wahhabi head-choppers? Oh yea, because they shower money on our politicians and buy billions in weapons.

It is now over the wire on any Yemen War journal that we are once again on the side of Al Qaeda. These people killed three thousand Americans and were supposedly the whole reason for our endless War on Terror. The press has been screaming its silence over the war in Yemen and now it is out: because we are fighting alongside Al Qaeda. Again. It's the greatest humanitarian crisis on earth right now, as we fight for Al Qaeda, it has been for years, and it's silence.

Instead, it's Trump-Russia: this giant noise machine that the mockingbird media is dutifully putting on the front page every day. To take our attention off the long list of active crimes being committed. Drug and weapons ratlines. Nuclear fuel and technology. By both democrats and republicans. McCain and Clinton. The top two criminal syndicate figures, one a democrat and the other a republican.

Not only siding with Al Qaeda terrorists, but with their motherland, where the state religion is Wahhabism, the Al Qaeda brand. World record weapons sales to them. A prince assassinating, executing, and hanging relatives upside down to empty their pockets - he's put 20 million in imminent starvation in Yemen... I look at Trump-Russia and marvel at all the things that are concealed behind this stupid blaring microphone.

Why, if you hate Trump, are detractors not screeching "Trump-Al Qaeda"? Isn't that the perfect smear? He was with Al Qaeda in Syria and with Al Qaeda in Yemen!

And it is a real thing. We have been lying about fighting in Al Qaeda in Yemen, that this was the reason we were there. No, we are there fighting on behalf of Al Qaeda and through Saudi Arabia.

If you don't suffer from Trump Derangement Syndrome, you can criticize Trump for all manner of things based upon first principles rather than a medical condition, lol.

Bombing Syria's military. Supporting the Saudis and especially the war in Yemen. Too much fealty to Israel. Friends is one thing, but servants no.

What the hell are we doing all over Africa too? We have bases in far over 100 countries and are shrieking about the one naval port Russia has in Syria. It isn't the pot calling the kettle black, but far more ridiculous.

The anti-Russia hysteria is bad on its own accord, not just as it pertains to Trump. It relies upon a facile extension of Communist USSR to Russia today. Nothing could be more stupid. Russia bears no resemblance to the USSR other than still being Russia. It is not communist with central planning and tens of millions sent to gulags. It is far behind world leader USA in jailing its own citizens, in fact.

We have immediate borders that are big problem areas. The drug violence on the border with Mexico has now extended to far more of the country. You don't hear much about it but it is getting worse.

If you are going to hurl about terms like "low-information voters" for people who have different opinions than you, then good luck in November. It's going to be another rout.

I said so over and over again approaching the last election. I couldn't believe my eyes. For how stupid it was. The democrats can't come out with a populist message because they've sold out to the bankers, the international corporations, to the billionaire elites.

For decades it was blue collar union workers as the core democrat constituency, and now the democrats make fun of them. Call them names. Because the democrats abandoned them for the money powers so in defense of themselves they frame labor as stupid, as dupes of Trump, ergo dupes of Russia.

I would not have been able to write fiction this asinine, really. For how to alienate a former base.

The DNC and congressional leadership, with the help of the media, has driven this Trump-Russia collusion train wreck right into Donald Trump's hands for the upcoming election. Instead of developing a message, a party platform that resonates with the populace, they chose a battle in a field where Trump has dominion. That's a violation of Sun Tzu there.

Dumb as dumb can be.
AlaskaBushPilot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 10:33 PM   #390
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 18,451
Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Again, the largest block of voters - independents - is ignored with this time-tested false dichotomy in American politics.

Liberal vs conservative, democrat vs republican, Trump and not-Trump.

By "poofing" everyone else out of existence except the loathsome Trump, the only possible motivation surrounding Hillary's crimes are slanderous lies by Trumpists.

Welcome to reality where Bernie Supporters, Greens, Libertarians, Independents, and a whole lot of others who don't support Trump as their first choice but who are really concerned a presidential candidate was running a private non-secured server instead of the state-provided security network. It was clearly to avoid FOIA and manage Clinton Foundation donations and U.S. State Department business like weapons sales. Transfer of Uranium and other listed products from various prohibition lists.

We don't want either democrats or republicans to be doing that. McCain and Clinton - lock them both up, that's a great start. Then move on to plenty more. I am down with that. I don't care what party they are.

Again, as an independent it is incredible to me watching the Democrats self-immolate in yet another election this November with this failed strategy. There is no core democratic message. Not to labor, not to blacks, not to hispanics or women or any of their traditional bases. Bill Clinton had a message to everyone: it's the economy, stupid. Trump is actually playing a Bill Clinton card, and the stupid Democratic leadership has consistently risen in opposition to this winning Bill Clinton message.

It is probably too late for contrition over Trump-Russia. The Democrats bet on the wrong horse and as it gets closer to November guess who has all the power to release every page the FBI and CIA are concealing: Trump.

The problem with engaging on Trump-Russia is that the people arguing "collusion" clearly don't believe what they are trying to insinuate. The artful language of "collusion" instead of citing a crime. There is no crime called "collusion". Presidential candidates are expected to show a portfolio of direct experience with foreign countries and their major business/political figures. Really, this pretense is so peurile the peddlers can't be this stupid.

We've lost trillions on wars for Israel so if you are going to pick a power that deserves scrutiny, there you go. Saudi Arabia, my God why are we in league with Wahhabi head-choppers? Oh yea, because they shower money on our politicians and buy billions in weapons.

It is now over the wire on any Yemen War journal that we are once again on the side of Al Qaeda. These people killed three thousand Americans and were supposedly the whole reason for our endless War on Terror. The press has been screaming its silence over the war in Yemen and now it is out: because we are fighting alongside Al Qaeda. Again. It's the greatest humanitarian crisis on earth right now, as we fight for Al Qaeda, it has been for years, and it's silence.

Instead, it's Trump-Russia: this giant noise machine that the mockingbird media is dutifully putting on the front page every day. To take our attention off the long list of active crimes being committed. Drug and weapons ratlines. Nuclear fuel and technology. By both democrats and republicans. McCain and Clinton. The top two criminal syndicate figures, one a democrat and the other a republican.

Not only siding with Al Qaeda terrorists, but with their motherland, where the state religion is Wahhabism, the Al Qaeda brand. World record weapons sales to them. A prince assassinating, executing, and hanging relatives upside down to empty their pockets - he's put 20 million in imminent starvation in Yemen... I look at Trump-Russia and marvel at all the things that are concealed behind this stupid blaring microphone.

Why, if you hate Trump, are detractors not screeching "Trump-Al Qaeda"? Isn't that the perfect smear? He was with Al Qaeda in Syria and with Al Qaeda in Yemen!

And it is a real thing. We have been lying about fighting in Al Qaeda in Yemen, that this was the reason we were there. No, we are there fighting on behalf of Al Qaeda and through Saudi Arabia.

If you don't suffer from Trump Derangement Syndrome, you can criticize Trump for all manner of things based upon first principles rather than a medical condition, lol.

Bombing Syria's military. Supporting the Saudis and especially the war in Yemen. Too much fealty to Israel. Friends is one thing, but servants no.

What the hell are we doing all over Africa too? We have bases in far over 100 countries and are shrieking about the one naval port Russia has in Syria. It isn't the pot calling the kettle black, but far more ridiculous.

The anti-Russia hysteria is bad on its own accord, not just as it pertains to Trump. It relies upon a facile extension of Communist USSR to Russia today. Nothing could be more stupid. Russia bears no resemblance to the USSR other than still being Russia. It is not communist with central planning and tens of millions sent to gulags. It is far behind world leader USA in jailing its own citizens, in fact.

We have immediate borders that are big problem areas. The drug violence on the border with Mexico has now extended to far more of the country. You don't hear much about it but it is getting worse.

If you are going to hurl about terms like "low-information voters" for people who have different opinions than you, then good luck in November. It's going to be another rout.

I said so over and over again approaching the last election. I couldn't believe my eyes. For how stupid it was. The democrats can't come out with a populist message because they've sold out to the bankers, the international corporations, to the billionaire elites.

For decades it was blue collar union workers as the core democrat constituency, and now the democrats make fun of them. Call them names. Because the democrats abandoned them for the money powers so in defense of themselves they frame labor as stupid, as dupes of Trump, ergo dupes of Russia.

I would not have been able to write fiction this asinine, really. For how to alienate a former base.

The DNC and congressional leadership, with the help of the media, has driven this Trump-Russia collusion train wreck right into Donald Trump's hands for the upcoming election. Instead of developing a message, a party platform that resonates with the populace, they chose a battle in a field where Trump has dominion. That's a violation of Sun Tzu there.

Dumb as dumb can be.
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. You just turned Hillary Clinton and John McCain into criminals for what? Using a personal email server? In contrast you are ignoring Trump's own statements. Including his tweet today admitting that the Trump Tower meeting was for getting dirt on Hillary and it.was legal. But in fact, it is totally illegal. Lie after lie after lie after lie from Trump. He serves up crap sandwiches on an hourly basis and supporters eat it up and go 'yummy'. His disinformation campaign has you repeating his lies. When someone lies to me, I ask why is he lying? What does he have to gain? Or what is he covering up?

And if you dont think Russia is not operating as a dictatorship then you are an ignorant fool. Headed by the former head of the KGB, it is a criminal country that steals elections there and causes issues all over the world.

I really question your motives in posting this disinformation about Hillary, Trump and Russia.
__________________
ď A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. Ē
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 6th August 2018 at 10:41 PM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 11:53 PM   #391
Venom
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1,614
Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
The anti-Russia hysteria is bad on its own accord, not just as it pertains to Trump. It relies upon a facile extension of Communist USSR to Russia today. Nothing could be more stupid. Russia bears no resemblance to the USSR other than still being Russia. It is not communist with central planning and tens of millions sent to gulags. It is far behind world leader USA in jailing its own citizens, in fact.
...snipped rest of your Gish Gallop. Putin and his colleagues are the direct beneficiaries of the events of the transition period in the 1990s (KGB/FSB thuggery).
Obama, Secretary Clinton, W Bush, and Clinton all failed to take seriously the Russian threat too; now look where it's got us.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 11:59 PM   #392
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,910
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There won't be a Civil War, since the divide is along class, not state lines.
What we will get is more and more violence against the top 5% and law enforcement until the militant poor are a sufficient force in politics to shift the balance of power away from the super-rich and towards massive wealth redistribution.
Alternatively, we will enter into another war that will be so costly in terms of wealth and lives that it will force the government to take away the 1% er's money to pay for it.
I don't see the divisions as being along class lines. At least not the perceived divisions. Poor whites are pretty firmly in Trump's camp. The divisions are based on ideology and acceptance of reality.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 12:04 AM   #393
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,910
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Hate to say it, but you come off like a Mirror/Bizarro version of a Trump supporter with this rant.
BS.

Trump supporters can't spell quadriplegic.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 12:06 AM   #394
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,910
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really question your motives in posting this disinformation about Hillary, Trump and Russia.
But... he's "independent" nudge-nudge-wink-wink.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 12:08 AM   #395
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,599
Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Again, the largest block of voters - independents - is ignored with this time-tested false dichotomy in American politics.

Liberal vs conservative, democrat vs republican, Trump and not-Trump.

By "poofing" everyone else out of existence except the loathsome Trump, the only possible motivation surrounding Hillary's crimes are slanderous lies by Trumpists.

Excuse me, there was no such false dichotomy in what I said, and it's ironic that the rest of your rant seems to be based on rather binary thinking and "poofing" inconvenient facts out of existence, if not the people who are rightly concerned about those facts. We have other threads where you can discuss all the crimes Hillary was hiding from the FOIA and how the FBI covered them up.

However, I take it that your opinion on the "Trump + Russia" thing is that it ought not be a thing, and Democrats are really dumb to think voters care about things like the collusion meeting and all those contacts that were lied about, and why Trump wants a two-hour meeting with Putin and doesn't even want his own people to know what was said, then comes out and betrays America's intelligence agencies, Department of Justice, and free press in defense of Putin's "strong and powerful" denials. Oh, and let's lift some of those sanctions as compensation for this offense against Putin's integrity.

Thank you for your opinion, and we'll see about your predictions.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 12:30 AM   #396
The Great Zaganza
Illuminator
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,502
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't see the divisions as being along class lines. At least not the perceived divisions. Poor whites are pretty firmly in Trump's camp. The divisions are based on ideology and acceptance of reality.
Trump is just riding the GOP train to trick the bottom 90% into believing that they are on the cusp of becoming the top 10%. This isn't anything new.

The real lines in America are between those who can negotiate their salary and those who can't.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 12:32 AM   #397
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 21,075
Released emails show that Trump's lawyers coached Russians on what to say about the Trump Tower meeting
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 12:34 AM   #398
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,561
Looks like AlaskaBushPilot has overdosed on Trump flavored Kool-Aid. I stopped reading about half way through his non-sensical rant and won't bother responding to it because it's a complete and utter waste of time. He's just gone too far down the rabbit hole.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 7th August 2018 at 12:45 AM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 01:15 AM   #399
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 21,075
A week or so ago Seth Abramson covered what the actual crimes are: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...97155936657410

Quote:
[...]

Election Fraud
Wire Fraud
Bribery
Bank Fraud
Computer Crimes/Theft
Computer Crimes/Espionage
Extortion
Identity Theft
Obstruction of Justice
Witness Tampering
Perjury
Making False Statements
Conspiracy
FARA
RICO
Money Laundering
Tax Evasion
And, from a little earlier, in direct response to a now-deleted tweet in which a Republican said that anti-Trump people saying "collusion" had no idea what crimes they were accusing Trump of: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...14050768941056

Quote:
Election Fraud
Wire Fraud
Bribery
Bank Fraud
Computer Crimes (Theft)
Computer Crimes (Espionage)
Extortion
Identity Theft
Obstruction
Hindering Apprehension/Prosecution
Witness Tampering
Perjury
Lying to Congress
Making False Statements
Conspiracy (Attempted)
FARA Nonregistration
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...14851373572096

Quote:
2/ Plus:

RICO
Money Laundering
Tax Evasion

I *love* it when people assume that those of us who've been researching the Trump-Russia case for 18 months will suddenly start mumbling incoherently to ourselves when asked what statutes are implicated by the Mueller investigation...
But, yes, it's probably wise that people stop using the term "collusion" - which is the term that Trump forced onto the narrative precisely so that people could make idiotic statements like "collusion is not a crime" - and instead use the less easily strawmanned "conspiracy".
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 06:07 AM   #400
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 21,075
Fox News analyst says that "there is the potential crime for conspiracy" re the Trump Tower meeting
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:30 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.