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Tags donald trump , lying charges , Russia conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 24th July 2018, 02:38 PM   #241
Fast Eddie B
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
On the other hand, Trump was making similar claims before the last election.
And on the other hand, I can’t help but wonder if this strategy was one of the topics of the Trump/Putin summit?
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Old 24th July 2018, 02:53 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What a job to have!
"He's going on about Hillary again"
"Reliving election, reliving election"
"Fake news yadda yadda yadda"
"Mr Trump asks if you fixed the election, which he says you didn't, witch hunt, fake news, angry democrats... Look I know I'm only here to translate, but does this guy ever say anything worth the effort?"
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Old 24th July 2018, 03:18 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
And on the other hand, I can’t help but wonder if this strategy was one of the topics of the Trump/Putin summit?
I think it's a safe bet that Trump mentioned he needs to own Congress in order to get all those goodies Putin is asking for.
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Old 24th July 2018, 04:51 PM   #244
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I’m very concerned that Russia will be fighting very hard to have an impact on the upcoming Election. Based on the fact that no President has been tougher on Russia than me, they will be pushing very hard for the Democrats. They definitely don’t want Trump!
I have a feeling Russia will be on the Dems' side this election and hoping for a Blue Wave.

Why?

It'll create more discord in the political climate and culture in the US.
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Old 24th July 2018, 05:02 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I have a feeling Russia will be on the Dems' side this election and hoping for a Blue Wave.

Why?

It'll create more discord in the political climate and culture in the US.
Works for me. Which pretty much shows how sad the situation has become.
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Old 24th July 2018, 05:14 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I have a feeling Russia will be on the Dems' side this election and hoping for a Blue Wave.

Why?

It'll create more discord in the political climate and culture in the US.
That's if you assume discord is their primary goal. The primary goal seems more like getting the POTUS to end sanctions or not enforce them. In that case they would want Trump to maintain control of Congress, and that creates more discord than Putin could ever hope for. IOW supporting a GOP Congress is a Putin twofur.
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Old 24th July 2018, 05:26 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I have a feeling Russia will be on the Dems' side this election and hoping for a Blue Wave.

Why?

It'll create more discord in the political climate and culture in the US.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's if you assume discord is their primary goal. The primary goal seems more like getting the POTUS to end sanctions or not enforce them. In that case they would want Trump to maintain control of Congress, and that creates more discord than Putin could ever hope for. IOW supporting a GOP Congress is a Putin twofur.

Primary and secondary goals are for amateurs.
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Old 24th July 2018, 05:30 PM   #248
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Quote:
I’m very concerned that Russia will be fighting very hard to have an impact on the upcoming Election. Based on the fact that no President has been tougher on Russia than me, they will be pushing very hard for the Democrats. They definitely don’t want Trump!

If democrats win... it's proof that Russians meddled.

If republicans win... it's proof that Russian meddling has no impact on US elections.


Trump knows how to preemptively set the stage no matter which direction the results go. He's a pro at this type of con game, he's been playing it his entire life.
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Old 24th July 2018, 09:06 PM   #249
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A conservative columnist summarizes Russian interference:
Quote:
We still don’t know the full extent of the Russian interference, but we know its propaganda reached 126 million people via Facebook alone. A BuzzFeed analysis found that fake news stories on Facebook generated more social engagement in the last three months of the campaign than did legitimate articles: The “20 top-performing false election stories from hoax sites and hyperpartisan blogs generated 8,711,000 shares, reactions, and comments on Facebook.” Almost all of this “fake news” was either started or spread by Russian bots, including claims that the pope had endorsed Trump and that Hillary Clinton had sold weapons to the Islamic State.

Elsewhere on social media, tens of thousands of Russian bots spread pro-Trump messages on Twitter, which has already notified about 1.4 million users that they interacted with Russian accounts. The Russian disinformation, propagating hashtags such as #Hillary4Prison and #MAGA, reflected what the Trump campaign was saying. The Russian bots even claimed after every presidential debate that Trump had won, whereas objective viewers gave each one to Clinton.

Russia also hacked voting systems in at least 39 states, and while there is no evidence that vote tallies were changed, Russians may have used the stolen data to target their social media or shared the results with the Trump campaign. The Senate Intelligence Committee found that “in a small number of states” the Russians may have been able to “alter or delete voter registration data,” potentially disenfranchising Clinton voters.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...?noredirect=on
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Old 24th July 2018, 10:11 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
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The Senate Intelligence Committee found that “in a small number of states” the Russians may have been able to “alter or delete voter registration data,” potentially disenfranchising Clinton voters.
That's... a bit of a bombshell that I think got largely missed by the MSM... or, at least, I missed it.
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Old 24th July 2018, 10:25 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
(tweet)

Does anyone actually buy into this?
I ran that through my Google Trasnlate - Trumpese to English.

"I see no one is rallying around my constant reminders to get out and support the party, in-house polling (and outhouse polling) has us losing the Senate and House and I need someone to blame." "Oh, and I won't be stumping for any candidates unless THEY come to Trump Rallies; can't be seen backing losers."
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Old 24th July 2018, 11:54 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
That's... a bit of a bombshell that I think got largely missed by the MSM... or, at least, I missed it.
That information has been around for months, although there's so much out there and the news cycle moves so quickly that it's easy to miss such things.

IIRC, the more troubling news is that they have already hacked systems for the upcoming election and nothing has been done about it.
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Old 25th July 2018, 01:10 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
If democrats win... it's proof that Russians meddled.


Do you think the Dolt might try to contest the results we’re that that case?
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Old 25th July 2018, 04:14 AM   #254
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Kremlin says that it's not the right time for Putin to visit the White House
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Old 25th July 2018, 04:52 AM   #255
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The first 20 minutes or so of Rachel Maddow’s show last night are well worth a watch/listen. Available as a podcast.
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Old 25th July 2018, 06:05 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
The first 20 minutes or so of Rachel Maddow’s show last night are well worth a watch/listen. Available as a podcast.
Oh! Thanks for the tip! I keep watch/listening to it on youtube, but that is much handier.
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Old 25th July 2018, 08:51 PM   #257
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More on how we got here:
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In Helsinki, Russian President Vladimir Putin admitted he wanted Trump to win — something Trump continues to deny to this day. Putin was more than a well-wisher from afar: His intelligence services ran an extensive operation designed to help Trump, including social media propaganda and hacks of Democratic emails. As I argued earlier, there is strong reason to believe that Trump wouldn’t be president without Russian help.

While this was going on, the Moscow Project of the Center for American Progress reports, there were 82 known “contacts between the Trump team and Russia-linked operatives.” “None of these contacts were ever reported to the proper authorities,” according to the project. Team Trump tried to conceal all of them.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...?noredirect=on
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:03 PM   #258
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Now Putin is just trolling the U.S. at this point. Some very evil trolling.

"Yes I did want Trump to win...as did half the country. I just want US-Russian relations to improve, so I was rooting for him." *shrugs*

Reporters ought to pressure Putin more when he gives these kinds of replies, though most of them ask the usual talking points FAQs and what's hot currently. Did conditions not improve enough when Bush was in office? What about Obama, whose Secretary of State wanted a well-intentioned but naive "reset" and who rebuked Romney for saying Russia was an enemy?

Relations will improve when Putin is happy.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:18 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
...
Reporters ought to pressure Putin more when he gives these kinds of replies, ....
Waste of time. Unlike Trump, Putin is a very skilled liar and politician. Reporters get nowhere interviewing him.
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:37 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Waste of time. Unlike Trump, Putin is a very skilled liar and politician. Reporters get nowhere interviewing him.
He is a skilled liar, but only insofar as knowledgeable questioners can't corner or at least cross examine him with a couple truth bombs about his past. The language barrier may also serve as a screen between him and Western journalists who may be less reluctant to call him out on his B.S. You can only ask so much.
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Old 26th July 2018, 03:56 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
He is a skilled liar, but only insofar as knowledgeable questioners can't corner or at least cross examine him with a couple truth bombs about his past. The language barrier may also serve as a screen between him and Western journalists who may be less reluctant to call him out on his B.S. You can only ask so much.
Unlike Trump he is not stupid.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:16 AM   #262
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How is Putin 'smart' and Trump 'stupid' ?

Trump wins the presidency against all odds, he gets labeled 'stupid'?

Are you sure the backlash against Trump isn't because his victory made the anti-Trumpers feel stupid? It would be a classic trigger for cognitive dissonance.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:23 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
How is Putin 'smart' and Trump 'stupid' ?

Trump wins the presidency against all odds, he gets labeled 'stupid'?

Are you sure the backlash against Trump isn't because his victory made the anti-Trumpers feel stupid? It would be a classic trigger for cognitive dissonance.
Putin is called "smart" because he seems to have a long-term strategy (undermining the West in general and the US in particular) and his actions seem to be consistent with this and effective.

President Trump is called stupid because he doesn't seem to have any strategy, his actions are clumsy and contradictory and he, or his people, seem to have to walk everything back. Despite having control of the House and the Senate, he's got remarkably little done that couldn't be done by executive order.

Additionally, Donald Trump seems to be remarkably ignorant about, well, pretty much everything and unwilling to learn anything. That goes towards giving an impression of stupidity - which could instead be a combination of laziness and disinterest.
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Old 26th July 2018, 06:24 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Are you sure the backlash against Trump isn't because his victory made the anti-Trumpers feel stupid? It would be a classic trigger for cognitive dissonance.
I've been disappointed for having my favorite candidate lose before. Anti-Trump is not a partisan issue, it is an issue of patriotism.
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Old 26th July 2018, 06:47 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
How is Putin 'smart' and Trump 'stupid' ?

Trump wins the presidency against all odds, he gets labeled 'stupid'?

Are you sure the backlash against Trump isn't because his victory made the anti-Trumpers feel stupid? It would be a classic trigger for cognitive dissonance.
Warren G. Harding won the presidency also. It's no substitute for an IQ test, it's a popularity contest.
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Old 26th July 2018, 08:50 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
How is Putin 'smart' and Trump 'stupid' ?

Trump wins the presidency against all odds, he gets labeled 'stupid'?
Trump is the Forrest Gump of presidents... not talented or intelligent, but manages to succeed based on luck and circumstance.

Had he not been born into a wealthy family (and had one of them not changed the family name from Drumph to Trump), he would not have been 'rich', nor would he have had any political success. Instead, he would have been working at McDonalds, asking people "would you like Large Fries with that? They're YUGE!"

Had the republicans not had a 'clown car' primary (i.e. primaries consisting of over a dozen potential candidates, most who had no chance and some that were outright jokes) Trump would not have had won the republican nomination. (In the early rounds, Trump was different enough from the other candidates that he could win a state despite not getting anywhere near 50%. If the republican primaries had only 2-3 other challengers, opposition to Trump would have coalesced much sooner.)

Had Trump not had the benefit of running against Hillary, a candidate who had been the target of Republican smear tactics (generally based on false information) for over a decade, he would not have won the presidency. (And at the end of the day he needed the support of the Russians, the Fox News propaganda machine, voter suppression and the electoral college to win.)

Nothing about Trump's success suggests it is due to talent, hard work, or intelligence. About the only "abilities" he has are abilities more in tune with a con man than a successful politician, statesman or businessman.
- His lack of morality, which means he is willing to lie unapologetically (which is usually a problem but works for him because of outlets like Fox News) and appeal to bigotry (which makes up a significant portion of the American Electorate, as well pretty much Trump's entire base.)
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Old 26th July 2018, 08:52 AM   #267
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Without the Russians, Trump wouldn’t have won

Originally Posted by Max Boot
While the intelligence agencies are silent on the impact of Russia’s attack, outside experts who have examined the Kremlin campaign — which included stealing and sharing Democratic Party emails, spreading propaganda online and hacking state voter rolls — have concluded that it did affect an extremely close election decided by fewer than 80,000 votes in three states. Clint Watts, a former FBI agent, writes in his recent book, “Messing with the Enemy,” that “Russia absolutely influenced the U.S. presidential election,” especially in Michigan and Wisconsin, where Trump’s winning margin was less than 1 percent in each state.
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:11 AM   #268
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
How is Putin 'smart' and Trump 'stupid' ?

Trump wins the presidency against all odds, he gets labeled 'stupid'?

Are you sure the backlash against Trump isn't because his victory made the anti-Trumpers feel stupid? It would be a classic trigger for cognitive dissonance.


The Don and Segnosaur already answered this a bit more seriously, Upchurch responded with something irrelevant to Trump's intelligence and wisdom, but very relevant to the backlash against him, and Segnosaur, WilliamSeger, and LSSBB added pertinent information regarding how Trump won the Presidency.

So, I'm not going to cover those things. Instead, I'm going to ask you whether you're really so... suckered, gullible, and ignorant that you were honestly asking those questions or if that was nothing more than trolling?
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:10 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
How is Putin 'smart' and Trump 'stupid' ?
Trump is labelled stupid because he's a frickin' moron, always has been, always will be. He stumbled into the Presidency courtesy of the Electoral College and a dumbass electorate.


In contrast, Putin gained power in a strongly contested field and has held it for a very long time because he is smart.
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:10 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Waste of time. Unlike Trump, Putin is a very skilled liar and politician. Reporters get nowhere interviewing him.
Plus, when do reporters get a chance to ask him tough questions? Probably never, in Russia.
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:11 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
In contrast, Putin gained power in a strongly contested field and has held it for a very long time because he is smart.
Well that, plus being willing to commit a few murders - though maybe the whole field did that.
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:21 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Trump is the Forrest Gump of presidents... not talented or intelligent, but manages to succeed based on luck and circumstance.

Had he not been born into a wealthy family (and had one of them not changed the family name from Drumph to Trump), he would not have been 'rich', nor would he have had any political success. Instead, he would have been working at McDonalds, asking people "would you like Large Fries with that? They're YUGE!"

Had the republicans not had a 'clown car' primary (i.e. primaries consisting of over a dozen potential candidates, most who had no chance and some that were outright jokes) Trump would not have had won the republican nomination. (In the early rounds, Trump was different enough from the other candidates that he could win a state despite not getting anywhere near 50%. If the republican primaries had only 2-3 other challengers, opposition to Trump would have coalesced much sooner.)

Had Trump not had the benefit of running against Hillary, a candidate who had been the target of Republican smear tactics (generally based on false information) for over a decade, he would not have won the presidency. (And at the end of the day he needed the support of the Russians, the Fox News propaganda machine, voter suppression and the electoral college to win.)

Nothing about Trump's success suggests it is due to talent, hard work, or intelligence. About the only "abilities" he has are abilities more in tune with a con man than a successful politician, statesman or businessman.
- His lack of morality, which means he is willing to lie unapologetically (which is usually a problem but works for him because of outlets like Fox News) and appeal to bigotry (which makes up a significant portion of the American Electorate, as well pretty much Trump's entire base.)
Well said.
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:36 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Well that, plus being willing to commit a few murders - though maybe the whole field did that.
I assumed that was what CapelDogder meant by "strongly contested" - I'd go for "vigorously contested"
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:41 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Plus, when do reporters get a chance to ask him tough questions? Probably never, in Russia.
If the WH gets its way, reporters won't be able to ask Trump any questions he/they don't like either.
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Old 26th July 2018, 02:12 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Are you sure the backlash against Trump isn't because his victory made the anti-Trumpers feel stupid? It would be a classic trigger for cognitive dissonance.
It was shock, not stupidity. Maybe it shouldn't have been such of a shock, though.

Here's what I've learned about myself: I care about leadership. In the past, even if I didn't like a president, I saw that they had some leadership skills, even George W. Bush. We've had weak leaders, but we have not had in my memory anti-leaders - someone whose behavior is the opposite of leadership, someone who cynically exploits fear to divide people.

You might think he's a good leader but he's not. He's incapable of bringing people together, he changes his mind constantly, he's full of threats and bluster but little action, he always blames other people for his own mistakes, he's actually incapable of admitting a mistake (even to himself) which means he can't learn from mistakes. He hires and fires arbitrarily, he has no coherent policy (MAGA is a slogan, not a policy), and I could go on. Leaving politics out of it, Imagine if he were your boss. Would he have your back?

Putin has a high approval rating because he is a leader. Maybe an unsavory one, but he has real leadership skills.

In 2000 Trump knew damn well that cozying up with white supremacists was a bad idea. He said so, calmly. But then he found out that stirring up fearful white people would win him a solid block of the electorate. Wholesale bigotry didn't used to work (in America). George W. Bush strongly emphasized that the war on terror was not a war on Islam. But the mood changed and he got good response to his crusade to prove Obama was born in Kenya. He learned to expertly leverage the anxieties of fearful white people. They're thrilled; Trump is their salvation. In some cases perhaps literally - they want Armageddon. They want the world to end.

That's not particularly reassuring to the majority of voters.

Last edited by Minoosh; 26th July 2018 at 02:26 PM. Reason: added "in America"
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Old 26th July 2018, 03:00 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Well that, plus being willing to commit a few murders - though maybe the whole field did that.
You win or you die.


The bloodiest conflict was the Aluminium War, which Deripaska won. Deripaska now bends the knee to Putin. Case closed, I think.
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Old 26th July 2018, 03:38 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Putin has a high approval rating because he is a leader. Maybe an unsavory one, but he has real leadership skills.
Putin's rivals for power were just as well-versed in Leninism, so his rise was due either to luck (the longevity of his rule argues against that) or personal talent. I go with the latter.
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Old 26th July 2018, 03:39 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Trump is labelled stupid because he's a frickin' moron, always has been, always will be. He stumbled into the Presidency courtesy of the Electoral College and a dumbass electorate.

In contrast, Putin gained power in a strongly contested field and has held it for a very long time because he is smart.
A stroke of criminal genius, or at least criminal instinct, that rigged the election in his favor, as the apartment bombing-Second Chechen War theory suggests.
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Old 26th July 2018, 03:51 PM   #279
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
You might think he's a good leader but he's not. He's incapable of bringing people together, he changes his mind constantly, he's full of threats and bluster but little action, he always blames other people for his own mistakes, he's actually incapable of admitting a mistake (even to himself) which means he can't learn from mistakes. He hires and fires arbitrarily, he has no coherent policy (MAGA is a slogan, not a policy), and I could go on. Leaving politics out of it, Imagine if he were your boss. Would he have your back?
You could be describing King Edward II there. Him what came to a nasty end in Berkely Castle on the orders of his wife and her lover.
Too much to hope that history will rhyme this time, I guess. A nice thought, though.
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