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Tags Venezuela incidents , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

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Old 14th June 2018, 12:52 PM   #81
theprestige
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Some days it seems like Economists have invented an economic system, named it Mercantilism, given it a very clear definition... and then never found even a single historical occurrence of the system. One wonders why the even bothered to name it, if it never actually happened.
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Old 15th June 2018, 04:09 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You claimed capitalism was to blame, not ideological stubbornness. You have moved the goalpost.
Don't be deliberately obtuse. An ideological adherence to the capitalist ideals of not intervening in free markets.
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Old 15th June 2018, 04:39 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Don't be deliberately obtuse. An ideological adherence to the capitalist ideals of not intervening in free markets.
Again, that was mercantilism, not capitalism. They interfered, their interference was not accidental, it was deliberate and purposeful.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:57 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Again, that was mercantilism, not capitalism. They interfered, their interference was not accidental, it was deliberate and purposeful.
They interfered to the extent they thought necessary to establish free markets governed by the invisible hand. As all capitalist societies do.

You may believe it wasn't true capitalism, but it was a society that was capitalist by any basic definition, governed by ideals typical of capitalist societies (non-interference in established "free" markets that are actually regulated to some extent) and their arguments against humanitarian interference echo arguments you still see today after natural disasters in capitalist societies.

If it walks like a duck, and all that.
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:31 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
They interfered to the extent they thought necessary to establish free markets governed by the invisible hand. As all capitalist societies do.
No, they absolutely did not. They did not want free markets. Free markets would mean that they could not exploit their colonies to their advantage over other countries. Free markets would reduce the supply of raw materials from the colonies, and reduce the demand for manufactured good back to those colonies. The whole point of having colonies was control of trade, not free trade.

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You may believe it wasn't true capitalism
There's a whole different word for it. Why are you ignoring that word?

Quote:
If it walks like a duck, and all that.
It walks like mercantilism. Stop pretending it doesn't exist.
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:45 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, they absolutely did not. They did not want free markets. Free markets would mean that they could not exploit their colonies to their advantage over other countries. Free markets would reduce the supply of raw materials from the colonies, and reduce the demand for manufactured good back to those colonies. The whole point of having colonies was control of trade, not free trade.



There's a whole different word for it. Why are you ignoring that word?



It walks like mercantilism. Stop pretending it doesn't exist.
Then no country is capitalist, since all regulate trade to some extent to avoid your idealized free markets.

Mercantilism, FWIW, is not that useful a concept historically. You're basing your opinion on neoliberal mythology rather than what the people at the time actually considered themselves to be doing.
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Old 15th June 2018, 06:58 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Then no country is capitalist, since all regulate trade to some extent to avoid your idealized free markets.
No. I'm not demanding purity. But there's a reason that the word mercantilism exists. It's not the same as capitalism. The differences matter, and they apply here.

Quote:
Mercantilism, FWIW, is not that useful a concept historically. You're basing your opinion on neoliberal mythology rather than what the people at the time actually considered themselves to be doing.
You haven't actually established that they thought they were following the free market. You've simply asserted it. And more fundamentally, why should I prefer what they thought they were doing to what they were actually doing? You wouldn't accept this as a justification for witch trials.

And mercantilism is a useful historical concept. It's not mythology at all, it's what actually happened.

It's peculiar, though, that any attack on socialism is always met with an attack on capitalism. It's almost as if people are desperate to defend socialism, but cannot actually do so on its merits.
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Old 15th June 2018, 09:38 AM   #88
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The word Mercantilism -at least the way you use it here, to describe a not-Capitalist society - exists so that people can comfort themselves with the idea that historical atrocities had nothing to do with capitalist ideology.

But to be perfectly honest, I'm just amused by watching you jump to the precise equivalent of "that wasn't real socialism". I don't expect you to see that as a valid defense.

I have also provided you with further reading on the matter, which you can consult for details on how the governments of these places thought. I'm not going to waste time repeating fairly basic historical fact that you will never admit to.
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Old 15th June 2018, 11:27 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
The word Mercantilism -at least the way you use it here, to describe a not-Capitalist society - exists so that people can comfort themselves with the idea that historical atrocities had nothing to do with capitalist ideology.

But to be perfectly honest, I'm just amused by watching you jump to the precise equivalent of "that wasn't real socialism". I don't expect you to see that as a valid defense.
Well, no. The primary problem with the "that wasn't real socialism" defense is that nothing qualifies as real socialism according to its defenders, because every case of socialism produces massive failures. But I'm not making the case that nothing qualifies as real capitalism. Plenty of stuff does.

And you're still just playing a tu quoque game here. Why does it bother you when people point out that socialism causes famine? Are you really so blinded by oikophobia that you can't recognize the vast practical and moral advantages of capitalism over socialism?
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Old 15th June 2018, 12:06 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
This one?! Looks interesting! I just Kindled it!
"A hero of the Left, Davis [the author] is part polemicist, part historian, and all Marxist."

And that's how they're advertising the book. No wonder he wants to blame capitalism.
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Old 16th June 2018, 04:57 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"A hero of the Left, Davis [the author] is part polemicist, part historian, and all Marxist."

Great! Now I look forward to reading it even more!

Quote:
And that's how they're advertising the book. No wonder he wants to blame capitalism.

Why not?! Would you prefer him not be honest and up front about it? Like conservative authors pretending that they're all about being objective and 100% unbiassed? A decent Marxist is not afraid of saying, 'This is what I am. You've been warned. Now it's up to you to find fault with my research.'

But Ziggurat doesn't need to read a word other than Marxist to find fault with it.
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Old 16th June 2018, 06:30 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why not?! Would you prefer him not be honest and up front about it?
Honesty is certainly preferable to dishonesty. But I'd prefer it even more if he didn't fall for Marxism, the greatest source of misery and death in the 20th century.
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Old 16th June 2018, 08:07 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Honesty is certainly preferable to dishonesty. But I'd prefer it even more if he didn't fall for Marxism, the greatest source of misery and death in the 20th century.

Yeah, right! That discussion is pretty absurd, but feel free to join in: What has killed more people, Communism or Capitalism? (Quora)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th June 2018, 10:35 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"A hero of the Left, Davis [the author] is part polemicist, part historian, and all Marxist."

And that's how they're advertising the book. No wonder he wants to blame capitalism.
Nice ad hominem. Unfortunately for you, his work is well-sourced, well-argued and highly regarded.

Does he have biases? Yes, just like someone like Conquest did when writing on the USSR. That doesn't mean we can dismiss him out of hand, because he got a great deal of things right.

And when Davis says "Millions died, not outside the 'modern world system', but in the very process of being forcibly incorporated into its economic and political structures. They died in the golden age of Liberal Capitalism; indeed, many were murdered ... by the theological application of the sacred principles of Smith, Bentham and Mill", then you need to engage with his arguments, not dismiss them out of hand.
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Old 16th June 2018, 01:25 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Nice ad hominem.
This entire thing is a tu quoque.

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Unfortunately for you, his work is well-sourced, well-argued and highly regarded.
And this is an argument ad populum.

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And when Davis says "Millions died, not outside the 'modern world system', but in the very process of being forcibly incorporated into its economic and political structures. They died in the golden age of Liberal Capitalism; indeed, many were murdered ... by the theological application of the sacred principles of Smith, Bentham and Mill", then you need to engage with his arguments, not dismiss them out of hand.
You dismissed mercantilism out of hand. Seriously, you had zero argument against it. Just hand waving.

And he's simply wrong. British colonial policies at issue here directly violate Smith's "sacred principles". We know that because of his opinions on colonial policy with America. He thought that either the colony should be made an independent nation that could be an ally and a free trade partner, or it should be fully incorporated into an expanded nation, with full and equal representation. Although these ideas were influential, in the end Britain chose neither option. That's hardly a "theological application" of Smith.
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Old 16th June 2018, 01:58 PM   #96
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Seeing as in actual application, Marxism has proven to be the Flat Earth theory of economics, I think the source being a Marxist is a fairly significant disqualifying factor, from my point of view.
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Old 16th June 2018, 04:52 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Seeing as in actual application, Marxism has proven to be the Flat Earth theory of economics, I think the source being a Marxist is a fairly significant disqualifying factor, from my point of view.
You don't have to agree with his politics. I probably don't. He argues compellingly using, you know, primary source material.

Dismissing him for being a Marxist is honestly a mechanism for maintaining the validity of the belief that capitalism is unquestionably superior. Once you see his point of view, you'll also see why Marxism does not look unquestionably terrible the way it does if you systematically exclude atrocities of capitalist societies while ascribing every bad thing that ever happened in socialist societies to Marxism.
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Old 16th June 2018, 06:12 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
You don't have to agree with his politics. I probably don't. He argues compellingly using, you know, primary source material.

Dismissing him for being a Marxist is honestly a mechanism for maintaining the validity of the belief that capitalism is unquestionably superior. Once you see his point of view, you'll also see why Marxism does not look unquestionably terrible the way it does if you systematically exclude atrocities of capitalist societies while ascribing every bad thing that ever happened in socialist societies to Marxism.
Capitalism is unquestionably better than socialism or Marxism. Even if you want to attribute all that stuff to capitalism (despite a lot of other factors being in play), we know how to fix that stuff, and we have. The only major famines of the 20th century have been due to civil war (Africa) or to socialism. Socialism cannot be fixed. Its flaws are inherent, as Venezuela is proving again.
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Old 16th June 2018, 07:00 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Capitalism is unquestionably better than socialism or Marxism. Even if you want to attribute all that stuff to capitalism (despite a lot of other factors being in play), we know how to fix that stuff, and we have. The only major famines of the 20th century have been due to civil war (Africa) or to socialism. Socialism cannot be fixed. Its flaws are inherent, as Venezuela is proving again.
The whole "other factors being in play" thing applies to socialism as well. Who would've guessed, human rights catastrophes are complex.

I certainly don't subscribe to orthodox Marxism (to whatever extent I agree with Marxian thought, I agree with Adorno's view that great emphasis has to be put on how a market economy functions and how it could transition to a post-Capitalist state, not how you'd like an ultimate utopia to look, but I probably agree with Rawls more than anyone else) nor do I believe we can just nationalize industries and everything will be great. But I'm not naÔve enough or so married to the status quo that I think of current neoliberal thought as being the be-all end-all of society. The failure of so many Capitalist societies to direct their enormous surplus production to improving the lives of the most vulnerable members of society enough proves to me that something is very wrong.

If nothing else, we certainly need to be wary that nothing like Fukuyama's End of History has happened. Liberal capitalist democracy is not the natural end goal of every society.

For all of these reasons, we really need to rise above name-calling ideologies. What does the failure of a society as corrupt as Venezuela say about the merit of its present ideology? Simply put not very much.
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Old 16th June 2018, 07:20 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
The whole "other factors being in play" thing applies to socialism as well. Who would've guessed, human rights catastrophes are complex.

I certainly don't subscribe to orthodox Marxism (to whatever extent I agree with Marxian thought, I agree with Adorno's view that great emphasis has to be put on how a market economy functions and how it could transition to a post-Capitalist state, not how you'd like an ultimate utopia to look, but I probably agree with Rawls more than anyone else) nor do I believe we can just nationalize industries and everything will be great. But I'm not naÔve enough or so married to the status quo that I think of current neoliberal thought as being the be-all end-all of society. The failure of so many Capitalist societies to direct their enormous surplus production to improving the lives of the most vulnerable members of society enough proves to me that something is very wrong.

If nothing else, we certainly need to be wary that nothing like Fukuyama's End of History has happened. Liberal capitalist democracy is not the natural end goal of every society.

For all of these reasons, we really need to rise above name-calling ideologies. What does the failure of a society as corrupt as Venezuela say about the merit of its present ideology? Simply put not very much.
A cultivated acre of land produces less food under socialism than under a system of voluntary exchange in the private sector.
An hours worth of labor of cultivated land produces more food in the private sector than in the public sector.
Would you agree or disagree with those two assertions?

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Old 16th June 2018, 07:54 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
If nothing else, we certainly need to be wary that nothing like Fukuyama's End of History has happened. Liberal capitalist democracy is not the natural end goal of every society.
There is no end goal of society, natural or not. Society is always precarious, ready to slip into chaos if not actively maintained. Socialism actively undermines key factors needed to maintain society against chaos.

Quote:
For all of these reasons, we really need to rise above name-calling ideologies. What does the failure of a society as corrupt as Venezuela say about the merit of its present ideology? Simply put not very much.
This is absolutely wrong. It demonstrates once again that socialism fails. Not occasionally, not even often, but always. That isn't a coincidence. Stop making excuses for it. You wouldn't try to defend Nazism this way.
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Old 16th June 2018, 08:00 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
British colonial policies at issue here directly violate Smith's "sacred principles".

So whenever the reality of capitalism violate the "sacred principles" of capitalism, the reality of capitalism has nothing to do with.
This, of course, is very different from the principle that whenever the reality of so-called socialist countries are at odds with what Marx wrote in Das Kapital or elsewhere (for instance when they not only have socialist versions of wage labour, but also of surplus value, money and even credit), then they're definitely still Marxist.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th June 2018, 08:49 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So whenever the reality of capitalism violate the "sacred principles" of capitalism, the reality of capitalism has nothing to do with.
This, of course, is very different from the principle that whenever the reality of so-called socialist countries are at odds with what Marx wrote in Das Kapital or elsewhere (for instance when they not only have socialist versions of wage labour, but also of surplus value, money and even credit), then they're definitely still Marxist.
Weíve been over this before. Marxism never works. Capitalism usually works. Itís pretty simple.
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Old 16th June 2018, 10:50 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Weíve been over this before. Marxism never works. Capitalism usually works. Itís pretty simple.
Precisely why I selected Flat Earth. In fact, you'd be more successful in a modest landlocked country employing Flat Earth theory than employing Marxism.
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Old 16th June 2018, 11:42 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Weíve been over this before. Marxism never works. Capitalism usually works. Itís pretty simple.
Moreover incremental improvements to modern economies have meant an understanding of the ways in which capitalism can cause problems and we have developed remedies to those problems. Of course those remedies work to varying degrees, but we can all* recognise the ways in which we need regulation, for instance.

For all that TubbaBlubba** wants to bring up problems from the 19th and early 20th century, no one would suggest running modern economies in the ways that led to those problems. We've learned from our mistakes of the past and have moved on from them, if not perfectly at least to a world of greater stability and abundance with much lower levels of poverty. Hopefully we will continue to do so, as I think that there are certainly still problems of efficiency and fairness yet to be solved and new problems related to emerging technologies that will have to be addressed.

I don't think anything similar can be said about Marxism.

*Except for the libertarians, anarcho-capitalists, etc. but they are just as wrong as the extremists on the other side.
** He is certainly right about the fact that those historical injustices existed, but we have actually learned from history.
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Old 17th June 2018, 04:07 AM   #106
dann
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Capitalism usually works.

And how it works!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th June 2018, 04:16 AM   #107
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Could you pick out one or two of the images on that facebook page that you think accurately represent "victims of capitalism"? Because I don't see how poverty in general, which is at an all time low in all of human history, can be blamed on capitalism.

Also, from one of those images:

Quote:
"Child Poverty in Rich Countries"
Percentage of Children aged 0-17 living in households whose income is less than 50% of the national median
That's not what poverty is.
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Old 17th June 2018, 04:22 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
We've learned from our mistakes of the past and have moved on from them, if not perfectly at least to a world of greater stability and abundance with much lower levels of poverty.

Yes, it's bloody marvelous, isn't it? Keep telling yourself that.

Quote:
Unicef report finds that one in three British children are in Ďmulti-dimensional povertyí and says gaps between rich and poor are widening around the world.
Levels of child hunger and deprivation in UK highest of rich nations (The Guardian, Jun. 15, 2017)

And we are at the end of the boom right now. The recession is just around the corner:

Quote:
As debts and deficits swell in coming years, the negative impact to economic growth will continue. At some point, there will be a realization of the real crisis. It isnít a crash in the financial markets that is the real problem, but the ongoing structural shift in the economy that is depressing the living standards of the average American family. There has indeed been a redistribution of wealth in America since the turn of the century. Unfortunately, it has been in the wrong direction as the U.S. has created its own class of royalty and serfdom.
The issue for future politicians wonít be the ďbreadlinesĒ of the 30ís, but rather the number of individuals collecting benefit checks and the dilemma of how to pay for it all.

The Next Crisis Will Be The Last (Real Investment Advice, Apr. 5, 2018)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th June 2018, 04:55 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, it's bloody marvelous, isn't it? Keep telling yourself that.
It is, yes.

Regarding your link, I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what their metric for "food insecurity" means. Can you clarify?

On the other hand, stunting is a pretty straightforward metric to understand malnutrition in children, and the trend seems quite positive:
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.STNT.ZS

From a worldwide level of 39% in 1990 that rate has fallen to 22% in 2017. I can't see that as anything but a good thing.

They also break it down by country if you are interested, although there's no UK data available on that link. Over the same time period the rate in US fell from 3% to 2%.

Your article does mention rising obesity rates, and rising levels of economic inequality in rich countries (though the trend is actually the opposite worldwide), and both of those things are problems. They are also problems that I think we should address and may be addressable through government intervention.

But that problems exist doesn't change the fact that general trends are positive, as the lowering rate of stunting shows.
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Old 17th June 2018, 04:56 AM   #110
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Also:
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Could you pick out one or two of the images on that facebook page that you think accurately represent "victims of capitalism"?
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Old 17th June 2018, 05:21 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, it's bloody marvelous, isn't it? Keep telling yourself that.
The UK looks bad on this metric compared to other rich nations. But why is it being compared to rich nations and not to poor nations?

Because it's rich, because of capitalism. And all the other rich countries which are doing better than the UK are also rich because of capitalism.

Compared to poor nations, it would fare significantly differently. Socialism makes countries poor.

You aren't actually making a case here for any equivalence between capitalism and socialism.
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Old 17th June 2018, 05:32 AM   #112
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Even if you take "food insecurity" seriously as a metric (I don't), it still doesn't make capitalism look bad relative to socialism.
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Old 17th June 2018, 06:41 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Socialism makes countries poor.

Capitalism makes some countries rich and other countries poor: Why are many people in developing countries poor? (GegenStandpunkt, 2004)

However, the wealth of a country is very different from the wealth or poverty of its population: Poverty for All (junge Welt/Ruthless Criticism, May 14, 2012)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th June 2018, 08:09 AM   #114
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Capitalism only works when there are tons of regulations and quite large oversight. otherwise it generates about as much misery as badly done socialism.

BTW: ČSSR of 60s says hi and wishes all of you nice day...
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Old 17th June 2018, 10:59 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Capitalism makes some countries rich and other countries poor: Why are many people in developing countries poor? (GegenStandpunkt, 2004)
"What causes this exclusion from wealth? Private property."
You went full commie. Never go full commie.

And this is backwards. One of the biggest problems with third world countries is that private property is not respected. Kleptocratic governments will plunder private property from the poor, the effect of which is to prevent the creation and accumulation of capital, thus keeping the poor in perpetual poverty.
"If food supplies are continually plundered in Africa, this not only shows that there is indeed something to grab, but also that the starving are prohibited from taking what they need."
Starvation in modern Africa is the result of wars where a target population is deliberately deprived of food in order to weaken its resistance. It's an old socialist trick.

And one of the major problems with food and Africa is not that food is being exported, but that first world countries erect trade barriers to PREVENT food from Africa from being sold to rich countries, thereby depriving Africa of the wealth it could earn from trade.
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Old 17th June 2018, 03:00 PM   #116
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Developing countries that respect private property and free markets get richer over time. The country and its population both. But poverty is never completely eradicated.

Developing countries that embrace socialism sometimes get rich more slowly, but usually get poorer. The country and its population both. Poverty, far from being eradicated, is often enforced as a feature of the system.
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Old 18th June 2018, 02:03 PM   #117
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Let's assume,for the sake of argument. Capitalism is as bad as dann says it is.
It still does not prove that Marxism is a viable alternative to it.
You would be exchanging one failed system for another.
(Not that I believe that Captialism is a failure, this is just for the sake of argument.)
The Anti Capitalists have got to come up with a better alternative than Marxism to be taken seriously.
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Old 18th June 2018, 06:21 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's assume,for the sake of argument. Capitalism is as bad as dann says it is.
It still does not prove that Marxism is a viable alternative to it.
You would be exchanging one failed system for another.
(Not that I believe that Captialism is a failure, this is just for the sake of argument.)
The Anti Capitalists have got to come up with a better alternative than Marxism to be taken seriously.
Good point and I think it should also be noted that Marxism is totalitarian and demands an absolute prohibition of a private property ownership and of a private sector economy. But what countries would dann describe as "capitalist"? Most countries have mixed economies with a private and public sector. Most countries have both regulated free markets and central planning. "Capitalist" countries have high social spending without socialism: healthcare, welfare, education, etc. There are all kinds of employee run businesses and cooperatives. Nobody will stop you from starting a commune and many of them exist.
In North Korea, where voluntary exchange in the private sector is prohibited by law, it still exists to a small degree. Not just the selling of contraband like drugs or DVDs, but of homegrown vegetables, taxi services, or cell phone charging from car batteries that were charged during the one hour a day they had electricity.
North Koreans engaging in forbidden voluntary exchange get punished but North Korea is much more lenient than Friedrich Engels would have liked, he called on their "disappearance" entirely.
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Old 19th June 2018, 01:04 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That, and the 56% of Venezuelan voters who got him elected in 1998. Ironically:
Academic analysis of the election showed that ChŠvez's support had come primarily from the country's poor and "disenchanted middle class"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_C...#1998_election
When has a communist regime ever benefited the middle class? Talk about voting against interest.
To be fair, Chavez was very successful.
As far as I know, there currently isn't a disenfranchised middle class in Venezuela.
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Old 19th June 2018, 03:52 AM   #120
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Comedy gold in here
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