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#201 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,024
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#202 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
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#203 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
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#204 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,977
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Goodness, I usually agree with you and I hate the current policy, but I think you're wrong here. If one's parents are taken into custody and no one else is available, then the child would be taken into custodial care.
Like I said, the fact that Sessions has decided to take every family into custody is a bad move, but I think that your description of the effect is mistaken. |
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#205 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,596
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Think any effort has been made to see if any friends or family are available?
![]() Here are a couple pertinent facts you are leaving out: One, they are being charged, I do believe one gets a hearing before being convicted. And even if without any rights to a trial, they are convicted, it's a minor misdemeanor charge. You don't lose your kids because you are convicted of a misdemeanor. First time offense for a misdemeanor, and you have kids with you, you will get probation or a suspended sentence or no time. Two, if you are arrested and your kids are with you, you have a chance to call relatives to come get the kids. They are not whisked off into social services custody if you have relatives or friends that can come pick them up, I don't care if they are citizens or not. Hell, half the right-wingers wanted Elian Gonzales to stay with FL relatives. No one said, he's not a citizen, deport him to Cuba. Some of those kids had relatives in the US. Three, it's not American to use children as hostages. What friggin country do you live in? What, just because they are brown they are non-people? You know what they are being held hostage for (besides disgusting unethical reasons), Trump believes he will get mid-term votes out of it. Because the alt-whiters believe the false stats that if these immigrants are let out with court dates they don't show up for court. That turns out to be a lie, the majority do indeed return for their asylum court hearings. Calling it catch and release? Really, talk about trigger framing. They are people, not fish. |
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Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation. |
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#206 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,703
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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#207 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,727
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#208 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,844
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DoYouEverWonder - Engineers and architects don't have to design steel buildings not to collapse from gravity. They already conquered gravity when they built it. - Professional Wastrel |
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#209 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,844
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__________________
DoYouEverWonder - Engineers and architects don't have to design steel buildings not to collapse from gravity. They already conquered gravity when they built it. - Professional Wastrel |
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#210 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,415
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It's being reported here in the UK that the Republican bill to address the situation contains a couple of rather controversial points:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44543252 1) $25bn for border security - including the Trump border wall If that's the case then the President's blackmail was successful. Of course Mexico was supposed to pay for it, but that ship would never have sailed in any case 2) Formalising separation of children The bill would allegedly limit child separation, but not ban it altogether. Knowing how little legislators read, and the "give an inch, take a mile" approach adopted by this administration against immigrants, I'd suggest that gives the green light for the indefinite separation of parents and children in the majority of cases The GOP is showing its true colours once again. I have been wrong when I thought that the majority of GOP legislators were just cowards afraid of being primaried and that a lot of GOP supporters were supporting Trump through mistaken partisanship. It turns out that both groups are active supporters of his policies (along with a significant minority of independents) and that around 40% of people in the US are openly racist an white supremacist - I stand corrected ![]() |
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#211 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 17,635
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That's a bit of a cheap shot at conservatives. Some of the strongest condemnations of this policy have come from conservatives. This is a question of being loyal to the nation and our values or not. You can be loyal to our values and be conservative. You cannot be loyal to this country and support this president and his policies.
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#212 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,415
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And yet the conservatives are putting together a bill which gives President Trump $25bn for border security (including the wall) and allows separation of parents and children - they're enabling his blackmailing.
A true condemnation would not provide him with a generous quid pro quo for dropping what is allegedly* a very controversial policy. * - I guess we'll see. Although the US electorate are supposed to be against it, large scale opposition seems to have been quite muted. |
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#213 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,582
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The thing is separation of parents and children is in some cases justified. Jeff Sessions is simply abusing an existing law in place to protect children from criminal parents.
It's difficult to make a simple alternative and public rarely rallies behind a complex alternative. That's why the large scale opposition is muted. McHrozni |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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#214 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 651
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Saw a bit on some news channel yesterday. Two groups of Trump supporters were interviewed, one in a restaurant, the other in a bar, I think. The former were middle-aged or older white folk. The latter were 20-something professionals, two or three of them being people of color/children of immigrants. The former had kids and grandkids. The latter had none.
Who do you think were the less sympathetic to the plight of the children being taken from their parents? Yep. The fat, priveleged, old, angry white folk stuffing their avaricious, ignorant faces with cholesterol. Those are the *********** deplorables. And I'm a middle-aged white guy myself. Goddamned disgusting. |
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#215 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,415
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True.
And there are a lot of people who view all illegal immigrants as subhumans. Always mentioning MS-13 when referring to Hispanic people is just part of the process - as, no doubt, is exaggerating the threat that MS-13 presents to US society. As far as brown people go.... Immigrants = Illegals = Gangbangers = Threat to society And so any and all actions are justified... |
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#216 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,171
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#217 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,171
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https://twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/s...19915348021249
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And it feeds in to the question I asked right at the start of this thread, and which nobody has been able to answer - who actually benefits from this policy? How does it make America safer, or better? It seems that the reason nobody who is defending this policy can answer those questions is because the answers are "nobody" and "it doesn't", respectively. It really is just being cruel for the sake of being cruel in hopes that it will act as a "deterrent", even though ICE's own internal documents show that it isn't. |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#218 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,582
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The greatest threat MS-13 presents to US society is what it's doing now, promoting xenophobia and destroying the liberal world order as a result.
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Usually wars or major crises are how these things ended. I'm not looking forward to that. McHrozni |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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#219 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,171
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https://twitter.com/radleybalko/stat...47903754448896
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#220 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,620
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Cynics can now have no end of fun amending Emma Lazarus's sonnet The New Colossus, written to raise funding for the Statue of Liberty, and now displayed on that monument. The original manuscript is held by the American Jewish Historical Society, who may want to make a present of it to Trump, as a timely reminder. But they can amend it a bit before doing so, as I have done in bold here...
Here at our guarded lockfast gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose shame Is the imprisoned children, and her name EXCLUDER OF EXILES ... Keep these, the homeless, tempest-tost from me, I douse my lamp beside the bolted door! Lazarus was a Zionist before Herzl, by the way. She was radicalised by the plight of Jewish refugees fleeing from the Russian pogroms. Per wiki. Lazarus became more interested in her Jewish ancestry after reading the George Eliot novel Daniel Deronda, and as she heard of the Russian pogroms that followed the assassination of Tsar Alexander II in 1881 ... An important forerunner of the Zionist movement, Lazarus argued for the creation of a Jewish homeland thirteen years before Theodor Herzl began to use the term "Zionism". |
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#221 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,171
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#222 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 15,023
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#223 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,171
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#224 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,582
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The thing is Trump and his lemmings want a few deaths among immigrant children. They think it wil deterr new immigrants from going to the US in the first place.
This is not false. It is abhorrent, but it also does have that effect. The controversy about the policy is sure to reduce the migrant flow for a while, news went around the world and back. However I doubt it's an effecient use of resources, soft power and political will to do something as mundane as reducing the number of immigrants coming in. The reason I'm pointing this out is because pointing out immigrant children deaths is like saying "this will reduce crime" to them. Surely no one would oppose that, right? The result is they will support Trump even more and shield him against criticism even more than they already do. Trump is many things, but stupid unfortunately isn't one of them. It would be stupid for him to back down now. It would be good for the country but not beneficial to him or his party, which is why warnings over this will go unheeded, indeed they'll just fan the flames a little more with Trump being the winner. McHrozni |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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#225 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 9,781
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The push back is starting.
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#226 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,170
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#227 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,170
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__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#228 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,170
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__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#229 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 9,781
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I found it really astounding that some of the kids are being housed in New York. They flew them all the way from Texas to here? This is insane.
Thought: Since the news of all this broke, this has completely pushed the Mueller investigation and Paul Manafort off the front page. |
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#230 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 17,635
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#231 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,170
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__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#232 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,171
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I don't have it to hand, but there was a news story the other day with internal documents which showed that it's actually had no effect whatsoever. Immigration in May was higher than April, and in line with May last year.
Of course you could say that it just hasn't had an effect yet, and that remains to be seen, but at the moment there's not even the argument that it's effective.
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#233 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,582
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It has no effect on those already en route, but it should have an effect on those taking the hard choice to leave their homes today.
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Of course effective in this context might mean fewer immigrants coming over with children. If you come alone there is no added risk from the policy after all. This wouldn't barely even show up in the overall migration statistics, I believe?
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Thus far his moronic strategy won him the presidency, dominance of the Republican party - who turned into his yes men within 18 months - lucrative contracts for his business with China and more. Even his tweets have done him little harm but they have served to produce such extreme levels of congitive dissocance among his lemmings that they're finding it all but impossible to find a fault with him. It resembles a stack overflow. If it's stupid but it works it's not stupid. That doesn't mean Trump is highly intelligent, he's not. Chances are half of the points above weren't a part of a coherent strategy but pure luck his toxic personality is so well in line with the deplorables. Still, if you look at his actions from the perspective of wanting what's best for him personally, all of his actions are at least reasonable and none are outright dumb. McHrozni |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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#234 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,171
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Perhaps. I hope it's not in operation long enough for us to be able to gather the data.
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#235 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
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I'd like to see some contrast with how European immigrants are being treated.
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#236 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,171
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#237 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,847
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Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t. |
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#238 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,171
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A senator has been denied entry to a camp where he wanted to view conditions for himself. When the camp was first contacted he was told they would need two weeks notice to grant him access.
This mirrors a case reported on a few days ago when politicians were only granted entry to a camp to see living conditions after a week. |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#239 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,620
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What they couldn't do so easily was take any of their money out of the country. In the early days of the Nazi regime the idea of removing Jews by expelling them from Germany but keeping their property was promoted by many anti Semites.
From 1933 until October 23, 1941, Nazi Germany pursued a policy of forced Jewish emigration. Antisemitic legislation and terror served to "encourage" and ultimately to compel hundreds of thousands of German Jews to leave. The government did all it could to make the Jews emigrate. In addition to making life miserable, the German authorities reduced bureaucratic hurdles so those who wanted to leave could do so more easily.Holocaust Encyclopedia. |
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#240 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,792
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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