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Tags diet , Jordan Peterson , nutrition

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Old 31st August 2018, 01:07 AM   #1
Puppycow
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Jordan Peterson's all-meat diet

You guys know about Jordan Peterson, right? For anyone who hasn't heard of him, he's a Canadian psychologist and a professor. He's also a bit of a "self-help guru" if I can use that term. He recently wrote a best-selling book called 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, and he has a popular YouTube channel, or so I hear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

But this thread isn't really about all that. It's specifically about this new diet he says that he's following. He has a daughter (named Mikhaila, age 26), and she's actually the one who came up with this diet first, and he adopted it after seeing how well it worked for her. She has an autoimmune disease. The diet consists of meat, salt and water. In the case of his daughter, the meat is specifically beef only. She also says that she can drink alcohol such as vodka or bourbon.

The Jordan Peterson All-Meat Diet

A lot of things about this diet make me skeptical, and some claims they make seem hard to believe.

Quote:
In a July appearance on the comedian Joe Rogan’s podcast, Jordan Peterson explained how Mikhaila’s experience had convinced him to eliminate everything but meat and leafy greens from his diet, and that in the last two months he had gone full meat and eliminated vegetables. Since he changed his diet, his laundry list of maladies has disappeared, he told Rogan. His lifelong depression, anxiety, gastric reflux (and associated snoring), inability to wake up in the mornings, psoriasis, gingivitis, floaters in his right eye, numbness on the sides of his legs, problems with mood regulation—all of it is gone, and he attributes it to the diet.

“I’m certainly intellectually at my best,” he said. “I’m stronger, I can swim better, and my gum disease is gone. It’s like, what the hell?”

“Do you take any vitamins?” asked Rogan.

“No. No, I eat beef and salt and water. That’s it. And I never cheat. Ever. Not even a little bit.”
Well, he's only been following it for "the last two months" so it seems a little odd to claim "I never cheat. Ever. Not even a little bit." especially since he goes on do describe what happens when he "cheats":

Quote:
“Well, I have a negative story,” said Peterson. “Both Mikhaila and I noticed that when we restricted our diet and then ate something we weren’t supposed to, the reaction was absolutely catastrophic.” He gives the example of having had some apple cider and subsequently being incapacitated for a month by what he believes was an inflammatory response.

“You were done for a month?”

“Oh yeah, it took me out for a month. It was awful ...”

“Apple cider? What was it doing to you?”

“It produced an overwhelming sense of impending doom. I seriously mean overwhelming. There’s no way I could’ve lived like that. But see, Mikhaila knew by then that it would probably only last a month.”

“A month? From ******* cider?”

“I didn’t sleep that month for 25 days. I didn’t sleep at all for 25 days.”

“What? How is that possible?”

“I’ll tell you how it’s possible: You lay in bed frozen in something approximating terror for eight hours. And then you get up.”

The longest recorded stretch of sleeplessness in a human is 11 days, witnessed by a Stanford research team.
So he's been following the diet for 2 months. Two months. And he claims that he's never felt healthier and that it cured him of a laundry list of maladies ("depression, anxiety, gastric reflux (and associated snoring), inability to wake up in the mornings, psoriasis, gingivitis, floaters in his right eye, numbness on the sides of his legs, problems with mood regulation"). And he "never cheats, ever, not even a little bit" except that when he does cheat, the results are "catastrophic" and last for a month. Hmmmm?

So out of these two months that he's been following this diet, one of those months was spent having a "catastrophic" reaction that prevented him from sleeping for 25 straight days. But presumably for the other month he was is superb health?? How do these claims add up?

Presumably he hasn't been following it long enough for symptoms of scurvy to set in. Not sure how long his daughter has been following it.
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Old 31st August 2018, 02:16 AM   #2
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Never heard of him, but obviously an idiot.
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Old 31st August 2018, 02:21 AM   #3
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If this catches on we're going to need a lot more planet.
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Old 31st August 2018, 02:45 AM   #4
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I know of a rather effective diet where you're on all-protein for a week or two before easing into a more balanced diet, but meat-only sounds as stupid as all-vegetable to me.

Another notch in Peterson's stupid belt.
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Old 31st August 2018, 03:23 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If this catches on we're going to need a lot more planet.
Nah, it might stretch resources a bit in the beginning, but as the Darwin Awards start kicking in things will be better.
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Old 31st August 2018, 04:06 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well, he's only been following it for "the last two months" so it seems a little odd to claim "I never cheat. Ever. Not even a little bit." especially since he goes on do describe what happens when he "cheats":
I think the two months is how long it's been since the last time he ate something other than meat. Also, that podcast episode is from maybe a month ago so I guess it's about three months now?

I remember he said that he was trying to see if they could add some things back in without negative consequences.

In that Joe Rogan podcast he said that the apple cider thing was the day before he went on Sam Harris' podcast for the first time, which was put up on youtube on Jan 21 2017, so a year and a half ago. As I recall he said that when he first started trying this diet they were eating vegetables as well (a lot of brocolli). The "two months" is specifically the only meat diet.


Quote:
So he's been following the diet for 2 months. Two months. And he claims that he's never felt healthier and that it cured him of a laundry list of maladies ("depression, anxiety, gastric reflux (and associated snoring), inability to wake up in the mornings, psoriasis, gingivitis, floaters in his right eye, numbness on the sides of his legs, problems with mood regulation"). And he "never cheats, ever, not even a little bit" except that when he does cheat, the results are "catastrophic" and last for a month. Hmmmm?
The diet started out less severe but still quite limited, and it looks like he's been doing it for more than a year at least. Two months is just how long he's been doing specifically the pure carnivore thing, I guess.


Quote:
Presumably he hasn't been following it long enough for symptoms of scurvy to set in. Not sure how long his daughter has been following it.
His daughter starting experimenting with her diet a few years ago. She has been strictly no meat for 1 year.

His daughter was on Joe Rogan today, actually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_7688Zk6s

I think it's a little crazy and don't really buy it, but he's at least pretty clear that they are just experimenting on themselves and there's no science behind it. He's just sharing some anecdotal experience that seems to be working for them.

I wouldn't do it.
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Old 31st August 2018, 04:53 AM   #7
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If you say you don't cheat on a diet, you are either lying or there is something seriously wrong with you.

I wonder how much Peterson spends on his diet: high-quality meat three times a day is more than I am comfortable with spending on.
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Old 31st August 2018, 05:04 AM   #8
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I don't cheat on a diet.






....I'm not on a diet.
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Old 31st August 2018, 06:23 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
She has an autoimmune disease.
What disease is it? I remember him saying that both he and his daughter have an "autoimmune disease" but which one is it?

I have (had?) an autoimmune disease - sarcoidosis. Does he and his daughter have that? Or maybe they both have AIDS? They are not specific, so how is anyone to judge whether this diet is useful for them as well?

This is important, because this diet is not just something that they are mentioning casually in passing, but something that Mikhaila Peterson is advocating as a lifestyle choice and even charging people for her non-existent expertise.

Quote:
It’s the “carnivore diet,” the latest food trend to sweep the internet, and the 26-year-old swears that it cured her depression and rheumatoid arthritis. Yes, she admits, it “sounds absolutely insane,” there is no research to back it up, and she isn’t qualified to give medical diagnoses. But now she’s offering Skype “consultations” about the diet for about $90 an hour, following in her famous dad’s financial footsteps.
Link

She also has a blog that she uses to push her diet called Don't Eat That:

Quote:
The food pyramid is a lie, fat is good for you, and many (if not most) health problems are treatable with diet alone. I'm in remission from severe arthritis (multiple joints replaced), chronic fatigue, depression and a plethora of other symptoms from changing how I eat. This blog chronicles how my family and my parents eat and what it's done for us.
Now regardless of whether it "works for her" or "works for him", charging people for a cure for unspecific autoimmune diseases (arthritis is just a symptom), and adding "many (if not most) health problems" into the bargain is straight-up snake-oil selling.

With this and Jordan Peterson's religious posturing, not to mention his reliance on Jung as his guiding psychological mentor, it makes me wonder if his clinical psychology, something that I otherwise have no credentials to critique, is also nothing but snake-oil as well.
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Old 31st August 2018, 06:24 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you say you don't cheat on a diet, you are either lying or there is something seriously wrong with you.

I wonder how much Peterson spends on his diet: high-quality meat three times a day is more than I am comfortable with spending on.
You could buy beef Medallions for $27/lb. Or you could buy Beef Tri Tip like I do for $4. It's a 15 pound bulk vacuum pack. Roast beef, steaks, Philly cheese steak. How many pounds per day to get 2,000 calories? $6/day? Maybe $8?

At 30% fat, (a good steak) you would get half your calories from fat. But I do need some fiber.
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Old 31st August 2018, 06:29 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think it's a little crazy and don't really buy it, but he's at least pretty clear that they are just experimenting on themselves and there's no science behind it. He's just sharing some anecdotal experience that seems to be working for them.
If that were all, maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but she is offering "consultations" at $75 for half an hour and $120 for an hour.

http://mikhailapeterson.com/consultations/

It seems she also wants it both ways by at least suggesting on her blog that there actually is science (or something science-y sounding) behind it:

Quote:
Really important read – Paleomedicina – Evidence the beef diet works
Posted on August 29, 2018 by Mikhaila
“We believe that the PKD is the only evolutionary adapted diet for humans. Rehabilitation of chronic diseases is most effective when the diet is limited to our real physiological needs. Eating fruits and vegetables does not form part of our physiological need but are associated with risks.”

(PDF) Therapeutic protocol of Paleomedicina Hungary. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...dicina_Hungary

This place (Paleomedicina) has actual doctors prescribing a high fat meat diet to successfully treat chronic disease. With hugely positive results (much more effective than medication). They’ve treated pregnant women, infants, and breastfeeding women as well. They have found no ill effects of the diet (they call it paleolithic ketogenic, basically a fancy turn for a red meat diet).

Eventually North America will stop with the “it must be a placebo effect” and start actually treating people. Suuuuper exciting. Also extremely satisfying after years of “you’re crazy”. Extremely. Satisfying.

They have a website HERE. (It’s in Hungarian but you can use Google Translate). The case studies are incredible.
Link
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 31st August 2018, 06:34 AM   #12
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They could probably make a lot of money from this cult judging by the comments:

Quote:
hey, on Joe rogan’s show you said you drank sparkling water, tell me please what kind of sparkling water?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 31st August 2018, 06:53 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
You could buy beef Medallions for $27/lb. Or you could buy Beef Tri Tip like I do for $4. It's a 15 pound bulk vacuum pack. Roast beef, steaks, Philly cheese steak. How many pounds per day to get 2,000 calories? $6/day? Maybe $8?

At 30% fat, (a good steak) you would get half your calories from fat. But I do need some fiber.
Me too, though I don't think constipation is a terminal complaint

Vitamin C usually gets mentioned in such discussions, but it seems it is available in meat. Provided you eat it at least some of it raw, or very rare, and include organ meat such as liver and brains. Rare calf brain anybody? Yum!
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Old 31st August 2018, 07:09 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
he's a Canadian
Wait, really? I sorta figured anyone who's that much of a d-bag had to be from America. Any chance Canadia might take him back, and give us the guy who does the AvE channel instead?
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Old 31st August 2018, 07:16 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Never heard of him, but obviously an idiot.
Well hang on a second. If you would take the time to get to know more about him as I have, and really learn about all the insights he has on the variety of topics he addresses, you would understand that he's... uh... okay yes he's a complete idiot.

Keep an eye out, you will absolutely see his name elsewhere. He's a big deal right now, and completely full of garbage. It's amazing how many "skeptics" and "atheists" he's roped in, considering his rants are lacking in facts and filled with religion.

A crazy fad diet miracle cure is not surprising at all from this guy.
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Old 31st August 2018, 07:49 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
His daughter was on Joe Rogan today, actually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_7688Zk6s
It must be awful to have a condition like that. Well, she seems sincere, and I assume all the stuff about her arthritis and having to have joints replaced is all true.

I wonder what causes such a condition in the first place?

Could it be parents who are too hyperattentive about cleanliness? I think maybe babies need to encounter some dirt and germs and put them in their mouths in order to "calibrate" their immune systems as it were. Kids didn't have so many allergies in the olden days.
It's the so-called "hygiene hypothesis"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

Babies naturally put all sorts of things in their mouths, filthy things, and maybe that serves a purpose, as counterintuitive as that may be. As a parent you want to prevent them from being exposed to filth and germs, but maybe too much of that is actually counterproductive.
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Old 31st August 2018, 07:53 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Wait, really? I sorta figured anyone who's that much of a d-bag had to be from America. Any chance Canadia might take him back, and give us the guy who does the AvE channel instead?
We have this tradition of shipping the chaff to America.
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Old 31st August 2018, 07:54 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What disease is it? I remember him saying that both he and his daughter have an "autoimmune disease" but which one is it?

I have (had?) an autoimmune disease - sarcoidosis. Does he and his daughter have that? Or maybe they both have AIDS? They are not specific, so how is anyone to judge whether this diet is useful for them as well?
I believe she said they don't know. The doctors were stumped. Apparently it is something unknown to medical science if you can believe that.
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:04 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I believe she said they don't know. The doctors were stumped. Apparently it is something unknown to medical science if you can believe that.
Sure, I can believe it. But if we don't know what it is, we can hardly know the mechanism by which her all-meat diet is working for her. It's a massive stretch to go from that to promoting it as a panacea and charging consultancy fees.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:11 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If that were all, maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but she is offering "consultations" at $75 for half an hour and $120 for an hour.
Both her and her father apparently also make money through Patreon. According to Wikipedia he makes over $50,000/month that way. There's a link on her blog and it says she has 85 patrons. So it is a for-profit endeavor.
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:14 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
We have this tradition of shipping the chaff to America.
That does explain Justin Bieber.
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:22 AM   #22
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I started listening to the Rogan interview. At around the 57 minute mark she says, "My naturopath says maybe I have a microbiome problem..."

Rogan: "Whenever someone says, 'my naturopath says' I just go uuuuuhhhh, what else did she say - you need a crystal in your pocket?"
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:46 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Me too, though I don't think constipation is a terminal complaint

Vitamin C usually gets mentioned in such discussions, but it seems it is available in meat. Provided you eat it at least some of it raw, or very rare, and include organ meat such as liver and brains. Rare calf brain anybody? Yum!
I'm going to guess that he doesn't count Metamucil as a cheat.

But the Eskimos eat all meat diets. And it didn't effect their mental acuity. We can tell by their decision to stay in the frozen north instead of migrating to Southern California.

My understanding of the Red Meat Debacle is that it was started by the Framingham study. In which they combined Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil (HVO) with the saturated fats group. HVO at the time had 25-40% Trans fats. Beef fat is only 1/2%. It was the veggie oils that were killing us, NOT the lard.

Later the animal rights activist got into it too. Joined by the weenies that conflate red meat with their blood phobia. Nowadays I have a hard time separating politics from nutrition.

But the all meat diet does not sound poisonous to me.
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Old 31st August 2018, 08:57 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Babies naturally put all sorts of things in their mouths, filthy things
The little perverts.
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The little perverts.
"Don't put that air in your mouth! You don't know where it's been!"
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:32 AM   #26
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Lots of people claim cognitive benefits to a Keto diet. And there are some people who are doing a Keto diet and go vegetable free, so that would be pretty much meat and fat only. Doesn't sound that outrageous if you are already down the Keto path.

I know I feel much better, physically and mentally, if I shoot for less than 20g crabs and all of that from green leafy vegetables. The first week or two may suck, but once your body adapts it really feels great.

And one slip up does feel like **** for a day or two. I remember being really focused on my diet for about six months and then I broke down and had a milk shake for some occasion. The next morning I felt like I had spent the whole night at a bar. I hadn't even had a drink, but the feeling was very similar to being hung over. I was out of it for a day or two and it took a week to really feel good again.

I'm just now getting back on my diet after a summer of screwing around and I already feel better. But I'm not going to forego veggies on this guy's word. Sorry. He sounds like an idiot piggy backing on some pretty well established dietary science.
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:39 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
less than 20g crabs
I know it's a typo but now I want to design a diet where everything is based on how many crabs you eat.
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:42 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well, he's only been following it for "the last two months" so it seems a little odd to claim "I never cheat. Ever. Not even a little bit." especially since he goes on do describe what happens when he "cheats"

Breatharians always make the same claim, so I guess he must be telling the truth!
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Old 31st August 2018, 09:42 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I know it's a typo but now I want to design a diet where everything is based on how many crabs you eat.
I'm not even fixing that. Going crab shopping instead!
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Old 31st August 2018, 10:25 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I'm not even fixing that. Going crab shopping instead!
I enjoy way more than 20g though.
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Old 31st August 2018, 10:32 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
I enjoy way more than 20g though.
Noted. Revising diet plans accordingly.
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Old 31st August 2018, 10:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I started listening to the Rogan interview. At around the 57 minute mark she says, "My naturopath says maybe I have a microbiome problem..."

Rogan: "Whenever someone says, 'my naturopath says' I just go uuuuuhhhh, what else did she say - you need a crystal in your pocket?"
Yeah that was a good moment.

I didn't finish the podcast because I don't really feel like she's got much of value to say, but it was interesting enough to hear her story, and Joe keeps things moving pretty well, while also at least questioning her ********. Also, I do have some sympathy for her viewpoint. I think if I was in the same situation of being extremely ill and then overcoming that, I'd also probably think I'd found a magic diet.
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Old 31st August 2018, 11:21 AM   #33
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Diets consisting primarily of meat can work provided there is sufficient fat in them. Inuit diets included blubber to add both fat and vitamin C. Without enough fat in them you’d loose weight and suffer a number of other fairly serious problems.


Even if you can get around the potential nutritional issues of a mostly meat diet, there is no particular advantage as far as I can see.
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Old 31st August 2018, 11:48 AM   #34
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Keto'er here too.. I didn't see anything about magnesium or potassium in that article. He'd be having severe leg cramps and feel like absolute crap if he wasn't getting electrolytes in.
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Old 31st August 2018, 12:20 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
Keto'er here too.. I didn't see anything about magnesium or potassium in that article. He'd be having severe leg cramps and feel like absolute crap if he wasn't getting electrolytes in.
offtopic: I'm type 1 diabetic and cos of hypos every day I recently went with the low carb idea, just because it means I inject much less insulin per day and less risk of hypos,
My toes and feet click constantly at night, is that anything to do with what you said about magnesium and potassium?
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Old 31st August 2018, 12:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
offtopic: I'm type 1 diabetic and cos of hypos every day I recently went with the low carb idea, just because it means I inject much less insulin per day and less risk of hypos,
My toes and feet click constantly at night, is that anything to do with what you said about magnesium and potassium?
Just because you need exogenous insulin does not mean you are T1. You are probably a T2 that needs more insulin due to insulin resistance. And the internal insulin resistance causes hyper-insulinemia, gobs of insulin circulating. And those gobs of insulin act like growth hormone, causing oodles of soft tissue problems. Tendinitis, trigger fingers, carpal tunnel, osteoarthritis too.

If you are T2, low carb and enough exercise and you won't need no more insulin. At all.
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Old 31st August 2018, 12:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
Keto'er here too.. I didn't see anything about magnesium or potassium in that article. He'd be having severe leg cramps and feel like absolute crap if he wasn't getting electrolytes in.
I think cows have enough electrolytes inside them to avoid getting cramps. But you'll need to eat organ meats to get them. Beef heart has so many that they taste metallic, like biting aluminum foil. Kidneys and liver have lots of other nutrients too. Brains are good too, but I don't they they sell them anymore due to concerns about CJV.
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Old 31st August 2018, 12:56 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you say you don't cheat on a diet, you are either lying or there is something seriously wrong with you.

.................
It depends on what you are calling a diet.

I have adapted a way of eating, that doesn't include a lot of the elements of the SAD ( standard American diet).

I do not eat grains, refined sugar or any processed foods that contain any of those things plus many other ingredients.

I can say I have not knowingly eaten any of those things for over eight months, and I have no intention of doing so for the rest of my life.


What do you suppose might be seriously wrong with me?
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Old 31st August 2018, 01:00 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Diets consisting primarily of meat can work provided there is sufficient fat in them. Inuit diets included blubber to add both fat and vitamin C. Without enough fat in them you’d loose weight and suffer a number of other fairly serious problems.

Even if you can get around the potential nutritional issues of a mostly meat diet, there is no particular advantage as far as I can see.
Yes, the fat is essential, otherwise you enter the realms of 'rabbit starvation'.
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Old 31st August 2018, 01:14 PM   #40
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Here is the article I remembered about a Keto person going off veggies. I'm not saying it is a good article or a good way to eat, but it isn't that far out there once you head down a low carb path.
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