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Tags diet , Jordan Peterson , nutrition

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Old 31st August 2018, 01:27 PM   #41
xterra
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An almost-all-meat diet is nothing new:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhja..._meat_and_fish
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Old 31st August 2018, 02:17 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Just because you need exogenous insulin does not mean you are T1.
I agree,
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
You are probably a T2 that needs more insulin due to insulin resistance.
Probably type2 yes, after all most diabetics are type 2, but I won in that respect and got the type1 reward, I even have other autoimmune stuff to prove it
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And the internal insulin resistance causes hyper-insulinemia, gobs of insulin circulating. And those gobs of insulin act like growth hormone, causing oodles of soft tissue problems. Tendinitis, trigger fingers, carpal tunnel, osteoarthritis too.

If you are T2, low carb and enough exercise and you won't need no more insulin. At all.
I'm still concerned about my clicky feet.
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Old 31st August 2018, 02:21 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I'm still concerned about my clicky feet.
I have clicky joints and I'm on a low carb diet trying to be on a low carb diet. I don't think they are related. I think one is about me being an out of shape old man and the other is about my joints clicking.

But I am not really a doctor. I would talk to a real doctor if the clicky is bugging you.
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Old 31st August 2018, 03:00 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What disease is it? I remember him saying that both he and his daughter have an "autoimmune disease" but which one is it?

I have (had?) an autoimmune disease - sarcoidosis. Does he and his daughter have that? Or maybe they both have AIDS? They are not specific, so how is anyone to judge whether this diet is useful for them as well?

Just FYI. AIDS isn't an autoimmune disorder. Autoimmune diseases are where your own immune system attacks otherwise healthy parts of your body. In AIDS you immune system stops defending you.
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Old 31st August 2018, 03:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I agree,

Probably type2 yes, after all most diabetics are type 2, but I won in that respect and got the type1 reward, I even have other autoimmune stuff to prove it

I'm still concerned about my clicky feet.
Auto immune stuff eats joints too.

And while Insulin Resistance goes hand in hand with T2, it's a common genetic problem. No reason you can't have both T1 and the genes for IR.
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Old 31st August 2018, 04:14 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Auto immune stuff eats joints too.

And while Insulin Resistance goes hand in hand with T2, it's a common genetic problem. No reason you can't have both T1 and the genes for IR.
It's a fairly recent development(recent decades) that it has been realized that Type 1's can also develop insulin resistance to their exogenous insulin. It's now pretty common for Type 1's to Take metformin.


Low carb is proving very valuable for T1's, not just for reducing insulin intake but for reducing spikes (increasing time spent in range). Even now in the age of pumps and CGM's , it's not always easy to maintain a good A1c while also avoiding hypos.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 06:29 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It's a fairly recent development(recent decades) that it has been realized that Type 1's can also develop insulin resistance to their exogenous insulin. ......
Except for the "exogenous" part. Modern insulins are recombinant HUMAN insulin. The resistance is also ti their endogenous insulin (if they have any).

And it is this genetic insulin resistance (IRS-1 gene) that raises insulin levels so high it acts like a growth hormone. Grows thicker artery walls, causing arteriosclerosis. And poor peripheral circulation. And also tendon sheaths- carpal tunnel and trigger fingers. Bad discs too. And guess how Statins really work? They lower insulin resistance.

The bad IRS-1 gene is in 40% of Caucasians, 50% of Africans. Death rate from heart attacks- 40% for Caucasians, 50% for Africans. Coincidence?
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Old 2nd September 2018, 06:35 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It's a fairly recent development(recent decades) that it has been realized that Type 1's can also develop insulin resistance to their exogenous insulin. It's now pretty common for Type 1's to Take metformin.


Low carb is proving very valuable for T1's, not just for reducing insulin intake but for reducing spikes (increasing time spent in range). Even now in the age of pumps and CGM's , it's not always easy to maintain a good A1c while also avoiding hypos.
Hmm, does metformin lower resistance directly, or does it lower sugars and the body lowers insulin levels? Now, wait... T1s have no ability to lower insulin since they don't make any to begin with.

I've tried Metformin a couple times. For me it was 'Weight loss via Diarrhea'. I eagerly await a "lowers insulin resistance" pill/.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 07:11 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Hmm, does metformin lower resistance directly, or does it lower sugars and the body lowers insulin levels? Now, wait... T1s have no ability to lower insulin since they don't make any to begin with.

I've tried Metformin a couple times. For me it was 'Weight loss via Diarrhea'. I eagerly await a "lowers insulin resistance" pill/.
Supposedly Metformin works by lowering insulin resistance,( which is of course the big issue for T2's), and also by discouraging your liver from giving you those glucose boluses, most often expressed as "dawn phenomenon". Sometime T1's develop resistance to the insulin they are taking though, in these cases they may also take Met. Most T1's don't have any insulin resistance though, so don't take Met.


I'm T2 myself and love the Met. If you ever get the urge to try it again keep in mind that those side effects go away after a few months for a majority of people.

Last edited by Marcus; 2nd September 2018 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 07:22 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I eagerly await a "lowers insulin resistance" pill/.
It's not a pill, exactly...
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Old 2nd September 2018, 09:49 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Supposedly Metformin works by lowering insulin resistance,( which is of course the big issue for T2's), and also by discouraging your liver from giving you those glucose boluses, most often expressed as "dawn phenomenon". Sometime T1's develop resistance to the insulin they are taking though, in these cases they may also take Met. Most T1's don't have any insulin resistance though, so don't take Met.


I'm T2 myself and love the Met. If you ever get the urge to try it again keep in mind that those side effects go away after a few months for a majority of people.
The REAL problem is not that "lowering insulin resistance,( which is of course the big issue for T2's),". The real deal is that Insulin Resistance is the culprit for 40% of people, even if it is not bad enough to cause diabetes. Lowering IR enough that your diabetes is solved in not good enough. Read about "pseudo acromegaly".

And just a few months of ******** my pants? Really? No, we need to lower IR without messing with our liver function. Check out how the IRS gene defect lowers IGF levels, and that boosting IGF lowers sugar .

My IGF is 9th percentile. Too bad so many lab tests use "5-90% is the normal range", not subjective studies of morbidity.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 10:31 AM   #52
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By all means find a cure for insulin resistance, you'll get no argument from me.



I think you have the wrong idea about Metformin though. It is extremely beneficial for the health of everyone who takes it, and not just diabetics. Over the decades the life extending properties of Metformin have been noticed, so much so the it is the first drug ever approved by the FDA for life extension studies in humans. http://www.lifeextension.com/magazin...proval/page-01



Personally I never "**** my pants" when I started taking Met, I had occasional diarrhea for a couple weeks.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 10:50 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I think you have the wrong idea about Metformin though. It is extremely beneficial for the health of everyone who takes it, and not just diabetics.
Lots of people may well benefit from it, but given its rather serious side effects (well beyond diarrhea), it would be quite extraordinary if there was nobody taking it who shouldn't be.

For example, metformin interferes with androgen receptors. This makes it more difficult to maintain, let alone build, muscle mass. But building muscle is one of the best ways to increase insulin sensitivity, and it has a bunch of other health benefits as well (increased bone density, better balance, protein reserves against health problems, etc). The loss of muscle mass can compound a lot of health problems, including those from diabetes.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 02:06 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Lots of people may well benefit from it, but given its rather serious side effects (well beyond diarrhea), it would be quite extraordinary if there was nobody taking it who shouldn't be.

For example, metformin interferes with androgen receptors. This makes it more difficult to maintain, let alone build, muscle mass. But building muscle is one of the best ways to increase insulin sensitivity, and it has a bunch of other health benefits as well (increased bone density, better balance, protein reserves against health problems, etc). The loss of muscle mass can compound a lot of health problems, including those from diabetes.
Interesting. I haven't heard of this side effect. A brief bit of googleing shows this effect preventing prostate cancer, but I'm not seeing where it interferes with muscle mass, do you have a link? I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested to read about it.


There are conditions where Metformin use is contraindicated, in particular kidney disease. Anyone with a GFR <90 should not use it.


Should it be used by the general public for the purpose of life extension? That is yet to be determined, it's what the trials are all about.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 07:55 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Interesting. I haven't heard of this side effect. A brief bit of googleing shows this effect preventing prostate cancer, but I'm not seeing where it interferes with muscle mass, do you have a link? I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested to read about it.
For example, metformin can decrease testosterone levels:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11707532

I don't think that's the only way it can interfere with muscle growth, though. It doesn't make it impossible to grow muscle, people can and do get stronger on metformin, but it can make it harder. The trade off may well be worth it for a lot of diabetics, and for people who are sedentary that might not make much difference, but you probably shouldn't be taking it if you don't have a compelling reason to.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 08:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For example, metformin can decrease testosterone levels:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11707532

I don't think that's the only way it can interfere with muscle growth, though. It doesn't make it impossible to grow muscle, people can and do get stronger on metformin, but it can make it harder. The trade off may well be worth it for a lot of diabetics, and for people who are sedentary that might not make much difference, but you probably shouldn't be taking it if you don't have a compelling reason to.
Hormones is complicated. That defective IRS gene I speak of is Insulin Receptor Substrate gene. The substrate is also used to make the Growth Hormone Receptor. The GHR triggers the liver to make the Insulin Like Growth Factor, IGF. So, fixing the IR will also mess with the IGF system.

But more likely the hormonal side effects of metformin are caused by the lowering of IR,which would lower the body's need to put out so much insulin, and since insulin acts like IGF, it is as if the body has less IGF for growth and repair. Ans since IGF/Insulin riggers the output of other hormnone, oops, change one butterfly in China and you get hurricanes in Florida.

Insulin activates 10 genes that IGF does not. IGF activates 27 genes that Insulin does not. They have overlap, but they are not identical in action. And since the IRS defect makes bad receptors for both,....
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Old 3rd September 2018, 12:54 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I know I feel much better, physically and mentally, if I shoot for less than 20g crabs and all of that from green leafy vegetables. The first week or two may suck, but once your body adapts it really feels great.
I looked up the ready-made Hormel Roast beef au jus. It's 640 calories for the container but there's sugar added, so that "meat" comes to 15 g carbs.

Does the 20g include dietary fiber?

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Old 3rd September 2018, 01:06 PM   #58
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Not speaking for Dr. Kieth, but most people looking to minimize their 'carbs' only count net carbs. Total minus fiber..


There is no fiber listed for the Roast beef au jus..

The 5 g of sugar in a 5oz serving apparently comes from added sugar in the form of dextrose.

When I look at 5oz roast chuck in my Cronometer app, is says " 354 calories and 0 net carbs ".
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Old 3rd September 2018, 01:20 PM   #59
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I do wonder at times how we ended up with cereal, toast and orange juice as a typical breakfast. When I had bagels for breakfast I was hungry all day; did better with a handful of mixed nuts.

I don't think all-meat would work for me, but I am interested in strictly limiting carbs for a couple of weeks for the mood benefits.

Mom turns 94 this month and I don't want to experiment much with her food. She can have my English muffin I guess , I'll just eat the butter!

What about just plain old fasting? Does that also favor fat burning or do you just burn muscle? I have adequate adipose reserves.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 01:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I do wonder at times how we ended up with cereal, toast and orange juice as a typical breakfast.
I'm unaware of American breakfasts that include toast with cereal (in milk).
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Old 3rd September 2018, 01:26 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
What about just plain old fasting? Does that also favor fat burning or do you just burn muscle? I have adequate adipose reserves.
Muscle is the last to go when fasting/starvation is in play.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 02:58 PM   #62
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The UKPDS study showed that it was worthless for diabetics to try to maintain 'normal' A1C levels. Seems the savings in long term costs did not even pay for the extra meds. So now they are happy with my 7.1 A1C. Which makes me think that most of the side effects of diabetes are not caused by high sugars, but by the high insulin levels. Insulin Resistance is the culprit, high sugar is merely a symptom.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 03:10 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm unaware of American breakfasts that include toast with cereal (in milk).
Well, I wouldn't eat toast and cereal together but I love me some not-from-concentrate OJ. The milk helps, but kind of a lot of carbs.

I'm *not* sold on low-carb diets, they strike me as an over-marketed gimmick. Same with gluten-free. But there is something about bread that makes me want more bread.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 03:17 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Muscle is the last to go when fasting/starvation is in play.
Seriously? Scientifically?

I never understood diet instructions that said, "Don't skip meals," because it's kind of worked for me. I'm hungrier on the days I eat breakfast. I get a lot of cardio and it doesn't seem to need food to work (except swimming).
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Old 3rd September 2018, 04:07 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
That does explain Justin Bieber.
And CÚline Dion.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 04:56 PM   #66
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All-meat just doesn't seem like it would have been a good adaptation for hunters & gatherers. Maybe they ate a lot of bugs. Are bugs meat?
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Old 7th September 2018, 12:57 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Diets consisting primarily of meat can work provided there is sufficient fat in them. Inuit diets included blubber to add both fat and vitamin C. Without enough fat in them you’d loose weight and suffer a number of other fairly serious problems.

The problem with this is that it won't work the same for non-Inuit peoples. Inuit people have a specific genetic mutation that allows them to be healthier on their diet. It's the mutation which allows them to adapt to the diet, not the diet itself, that is responsible for their health.

It is not, as many woo diet advocates claim, a ketogenic diet. The processing of meat is enabled by a liver that is considerably larger than most other populations, and more frequent urination to purge the byproducts of their diet.

More importantly, they eat raw meat, which means that they get much of their dietary calorie intake not from fat or protein, but from glycogen stores in the meat and fat.

And the Inuit diet is not exclusively meat and fish. They also eat vegetable matter, mostly berries, certain wild herbs and grasses, and various tubers (often by raiding mouse food caches). Not a lot, but enough to provide the few nutrients they cannot get from meat.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
All-meat just doesn't seem like it would have been a good adaptation for hunters & gatherers. Maybe they ate a lot of bugs. Are bugs meat?

An average hunter-gatherer diet isn't all that high in meat, certainly not all-meat. There are a lot of fruits, vegetables (particularly tubers), and yeah, bugs too for some of them (fat-rich grubs and locusts most commonly, although some far-eastern cuisines are fond of ant's eggs too).
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Old 7th September 2018, 01:03 PM   #68
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Inuit also eat seaweed (macroalgae) which is a great food.
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Old 7th September 2018, 01:15 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I looked up the ready-made Hormel Roast beef au jus. It's 640 calories for the container but there's sugar added, so that "meat" comes to 15 g carbs.

Does the 20g include dietary fiber?
Finding prepared foods without added sugar is very difficult. I tend to prepare my own meat as much as possible to avoid sauces that will have more sugar in them than I want.

I count net carbs as mentioned by Skeptical Greg. Total carbs minus fiber. Sometimes I will indulge in a sweet that is made with sugar alcohols, but I try not to make that a habit.

Leafy green veggies are fairly low, tomatoes and berries are bit higher, citrus fruits and ground veggies are off the menu for me. And while I try to keep it under 20, I more often land between twenty and fifty. I'm not the measuring type so I can't be 100% confident in that claim either.
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Old 7th September 2018, 11:58 PM   #70
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I lost 80 lb (35 kg) and have kept it off two and a half years.

Everybody thinks you need to eat according to a gimmick to lose weight.

My gimmick is to eat the food I love in moderation and do an exercise I enjoy.

The old, "eat less, move more" that people hate to hear and won't get you any patreons.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:04 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I lost 80 lb (35 kg) and have kept it off two and a half years.

Everybody thinks you need to eat according to a gimmick to lose weight.

My gimmick was to eat the food I love in moderation and do an exercise I enjoy.

The old, "eat less, move more" that people hate to hear and won't get you any patreons.
Well, I have no idea if her diet is responsible for her wellness, but the motivation for her change in diet wasn't losing weight but several symptoms including:

- Arthritis
- Some sort of skin problem
- Depression
- Nausea/diarrhoea

Supposedly all of these things cleared up with her diet change. No idea how honest she's being able that, although I doubt she's lying about the hip replacement.

I think what you've done is amazing and agree with what you say, I just think it doesn't necessarily apply to this girl. Though it may apply to those who are looking to her for answers.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:21 AM   #72
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Cheers, Roboramma. Wasn't thinking of the girl.

With regards to her, fame is a vitalising placebo. I'm sure she thinks she feels better.

Plus, her ailments are the sort of things that can clear up of their own accord, or go in phases.

If she ate more bony fish (herring, sardines) that might improve calcium levels and osteoarthritis, but I haven't seen what sorts of meat she eats and you can do that and still eat a balanced diet.
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Old 8th September 2018, 05:59 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
The old, "eat less, move more" that people hate to hear and won't get you any patreons.
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Old 8th September 2018, 08:50 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Cheers, Roboramma. Wasn't thinking of the girl.

With regards to her, fame is a vitalising placebo. I'm sure she thinks she feels better.

Plus, her ailments are the sort of things that can clear up of their own accord, or go in phases.

If she ate more bony fish (herring, sardines) that might improve calcium levels and osteoarthritis, but I haven't seen what sorts of meat she eats and you can do that and still eat a balanced diet.
That's a strange comment..
Can one think they feel better, without actually feeling better?


Also, getting more calcium does not improve bone health in the absence of otherwise good nutrition. Many elements of
the standard American diet ( SAD ) are calcium depleting. in that it interferes with absorption.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:36 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
That's a strange comment..
Can one think they feel better, without actually feeling better?


Also, getting more calcium does not improve bone health in the absence of otherwise good nutrition. Many elements of
the standard American diet ( SAD ) are calcium depleting. in that it interferes with absorption.
Absorption is only a part of calcium metabolism. That is why giving calcium supplements doesn't help osteoporotics. So, many if us have calcium in the wrong places. Like arteries, heart valves, tendons, .... Our SAD diet certainly hasn't depleted our calcium.
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Old 8th September 2018, 02:33 PM   #76
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Not the available stores, anyway..

It is being removed from your bones to be deposited in those other places..
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Old 8th September 2018, 03:37 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Not the available stores, anyway..

It is being removed from your bones to be deposited in those other places..
I knew that. It shows in xrays of my cervical vertebra. It's called "scalloped vertebra".

How to stop/fix?

There is a lot more to insulin resistance than diabetes.
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Old 8th September 2018, 03:46 PM   #78
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Low carb diet might be a good start..
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Old 8th September 2018, 05:07 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I knew that. It shows in xrays of my cervical vertebra. It's called "scalloped vertebra".

How to stop/fix?

There is a lot more to insulin resistance than diabetes.
Weightlifting. Stress produces adaptation. Deadlifts, performed correctly, are one of the best things you can do to protect your back.
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Old 8th September 2018, 08:29 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Weightlifting. Stress produces adaptation. Deadlifts, performed correctly, are one of the best things you can do to protect your back.
cervical = neck
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