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Old 8th September 2018, 12:03 PM   #41
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is a big difference between talking about the general and the specific.

I am sure I am theoretically related to actor Thomas Burke, who is 99% Irish.

However, in the meantime, he can truthfully claim to be Irish. I cannot.

As for Berkmann, his claim to related to royalty is absurd as Edward I was such a long time ago. Come back when it is within the last dozen generations or so.
What does any of that have to do with the post you were replying to?
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:09 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
You don't know what you're talking about. Your understanding of the relevant statistics appears to be entirely lacking; and in addition, you seem entirely unaware that genetic analysis can now provide very high levels of reliability in terms of mapping the transfer of DNA. Indeed, this is Rutherford's very area of expertise. To suggest that "he is just saying that off the top of his head" is, to employ the vernacular, total bollocks. But I'll happily take that wager of yours.
Oh dear. Your knowledge of the world hangs on the words of a populist scientist who churns out mass produced paperbacks patronising people and believes his own opinion as fact.

Here's what is said about 'world leading expert' Rutherford:

Quote:
"If you are ethnically British, one thing is certain: your ancestors definitely had sex with Neanderthals. On the other hand, they probably didn't have sex with Vikings, who, it turns out, did a fair bit more pillaging than raping. And, depending on the flakiness of your earwax, it is just conceivable that your relatives' unattractiveness to hairy and horned invaders was related to their body odour. DNA is fragile, confusing and contains a lot of pointless data. But unlike other accounts of human history it doesn't lie. Adam Rutherford's soaring book is an exposition of what this new science really tells us about who we are (Tom Whipple THE TIMES)

One of the most extraordinary things about this book is its sheer breadth. Rutherford, a writer and geneticist, weaves from our genes a fascinating tapestry of human history from its most primitive origins to its sophisticated present, and beyond ... The writing is concise and often funny, and Rutherford never takes himself or his subject too seriously ... It is one of those rare books that you'll finish thinking you haven't wasted a single second (Brad Davies INDEPENDENT)
The fact he writes columns for the GRAUNIAD claiming 'everybody is descended from Charlemagne', one begins to suspect he's another quasi-communist spreading the news of 'egalitarianism for all'.

We are all part banana and part bonobo, goes this argument.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:13 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What does any of that have to do with the post you were replying to?
Rutherford is talking about gross sweeping generalisations, based on whole populations going back thousands of years.

Berkmann was talking about his personal descent from Edward I.

Can you really not spot the difference between the two approaches?
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:16 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh dear. Your knowledge of the world hangs on the words of a populist scientist who churns out mass produced paperbacks patronising people and believes his own opinion as fact.


A scientist who just happens to have a PhD in the topic at hand, genetics, who studied under one of the leading scientists in the field, Steve Jones (who is also a widely respected writer of books presenting science for non-scientists), who was an editor of Nature for 10 years, as well as presenting science in the media. He's written three books so far; the two I've read were hardly 'churned out'; written in an accessible way, but they are fully indexed with references to the original research backing up what's written. I'm not sure what 'mass-produced' is supposed to imply; you seem to think it's derogatory, but since Caxton most books have been 'mass-produced'.
Quote:
Here's what is said about 'world leading expert' Rutherford:
What you've quoted are reviews of his book, not what was said about him (though I don't see anything but praise in what you've quoted). I don't know who you're quoting when you say 'world leading expert', but that is not far from the mark.

Quote:

The fact he writes columns for the GRAUNIAD claiming 'everybody is descended from Charlemagne', one begins to suspect he's another quasi-communist spreading the news of 'egalitarianism for all'.
What a peculiar thing to suspect. What leads you to this bizarre conclusion? Certainly it's nothing he's actually written.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rutherford is talking about gross sweeping generalisations, based on whole populations going back thousands of years.

Berkmann was talking about his personal descent from Edward I.

Can you really not spot the difference between the two approaches?
Rutherford is quoting the conclusion of mathematicians, based on statistics, which in turn is corroborated by the results of DNA analysis. These are not 'gross sweeping generalisations', though large numbers are involved. I can only suggest you actually read his book before displaying your ignorance further.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:38 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Very quick sums assuming each generation breads every 25 years and has 2 kids there would have been 137.5 billion direct descendants in 2112. Given the world population is only 7.2 billion we are all related to him 19 times.

Note For a slightly more accurate calculation simply remove the instances if interbreeding from the above calculations.
Approximately how many loaves would that be?
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Old 8th September 2018, 02:06 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Youíre thinking of Bono.
Funny
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Old 8th September 2018, 02:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
True, but even so in that time many have still been pretty socially separate
Not true. There has been plenty of interaction with surrounding populations for thousands of years - Macassans, Polynesians, etc.
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Old 8th September 2018, 02:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not true. There has been plenty of interaction with surrounding populations for thousands of years - Macassans, Polynesians, etc.
OK, I stand corrected.
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Old 8th September 2018, 02:16 PM   #49
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Yes, I think I'll believe the person who thinks mermaids are real over the one with the PhD in genetics on this one.
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Old 8th September 2018, 05:15 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Yes, I think I'll believe the person who thinks mermaids are real over the one with the PhD in genetics on this one.

Hehehe. Couldn't be a better illustration of the old aphorism: "there are none so blind as those who will not see"........
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Old 8th September 2018, 05:26 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post


A scientist who just happens to have a PhD in the topic at hand, genetics, who studied under one of the leading scientists in the field, Steve Jones (who is also a widely respected writer of books presenting science for non-scientists), who was an editor of Nature for 10 years, as well as presenting science in the media. He's written three books so far; the two I've read were hardly 'churned out'; written in an accessible way, but they are fully indexed with references to the original research backing up what's written. I'm not sure what 'mass-produced' is supposed to imply; you seem to think it's derogatory, but since Caxton most books have been 'mass-produced'.

What you've quoted are reviews of his book, not what was said about him (though I don't see anything but praise in what you've quoted). I don't know who you're quoting when you say 'world leading expert', but that is not far from the mark.



What a peculiar thing to suspect. What leads you to this bizarre conclusion? Certainly it's nothing he's actually written.



Rutherford is quoting the conclusion of mathematicians, based on statistics, which in turn is corroborated by the results of DNA analysis. These are not 'gross sweeping generalisations', though large numbers are involved. I can only suggest you actually read his book before displaying your ignorance further.


It's so strange and tiresome, isn't it? My mind is tempted to cast itself back to the time when the Church and the establishment flat-out refused to believe that the Earth wasn't the centre of the Universe, around which the Sun and everything else revolved - even when presented with reliable, repeatable scientific evidence to the contrary.

I thought we'd had something called The Enlightenment since then. But having said that, there are still morons in 2018 who insist that the Moon landings were faked in a studio on Earth, or that the US Government rigged the Twin Towers with explosives. It's hard to deal with that sort of level of ignorance and righteousness - especially when careful and repeated explanations of the reliable scientific evidence disproving their positions are just waved away, are ignored, or are incapable of being assimilated by low intellectual capacity.

In this particular instance, a proper, intellectually-adequate understanding of the relevant areas of genetic analysis and statistics shows conclusively that it can reliably be stated that (for example) almost everyone with any European ancestry is a direct descendent of Charlemagne. Anyone claiming otherwise - especially when they appear to be doing so merely on the grounds of what they instinctively believe(!!) - is ignorant and wrong.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not true. There has been plenty of interaction with surrounding populations for thousands of years - Macassans, Polynesians, etc.
I still am surprised that any Australian Aborigines alive in 3000 BC were either the ancestors of everyone alive today or of nobody. It still seems pretty recent for this to have occurred, as the offspring of the most central groups had to have diffussed to the coast and thence through to Asia when contact had been limited for much of this time.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:49 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by mkg View Post
Cutting two years of work down to a sentence or six ...
1. A witness (my mother and two of her sisters) report of a domestic argument in which my purported (and drunk) great grandfather told his purported daughter (my grandmother) that he wasn't actually her father.
2. Making sense out of a report of the apparently illogical behaviour (involving a boat and ice cream) of my great grandmother, which boiled down to a ferry and an Italian lady shopkeeper.
3. Tracing the Italian lady's husband and determining his regular travel on that ferry.
4. Tracing and making contact with the descendants (UK, USA and Canada) of said ferry traveller, of which there are many (but nowhere near most of them also being descendants of said Italian lady).
5. Wondering about the distinctly Italianate appearance of several close relatives.
6, Counting days backwards from the birth of my grandmother to the probable date of conception and wondering why the closure of that ice cream shop and the removal of the perpetrator and his family to the other side of the country followed very soon after.
No, I haven't had DNA tests. I don't think they're needed.
EDIT: Almost forgot - I now have a photo of the culprit. I'm a dead ringer.
Sounds like a detective story without murder. Fascinating.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:01 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I still am surprised that any Australian Aborigines alive in 3000 BC were either the ancestors of everyone alive today or of nobody. It still seems pretty recent for this to have occurred, as the offspring of the most central groups had to have diffussed to the coast and thence through to Asia when contact had been limited for much of this time.
Here's a free copy of the nature article Modelling the recent common
ancestry of all living humans
.
http://math.arizona.edu/~bhallmark/T...aturerohde.pdf

In short, you only need one person to migrate and reproduce succesfully. As soon as they are everyone's ancestor in their new population, all the migrant's ancestors in their source population are also everyone's ancestors in the new population.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:14 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Here's a free copy of the nature article Modelling the recent common
ancestry of all living humans
.
http://math.arizona.edu/~bhallmark/T...aturerohde.pdf

In short, you only need one person to migrate and reproduce succesfully. As soon as they are everyone's ancestor in their new population, all the migrant's ancestors in their source population are also everyone's ancestors in the new population.
Thanks. It does address the idea of the latest common ancestor being surprisingly late. Which I am happy with. Especially isolated Australian populations.

Quote:
Several factors could cause the time to the true MRCA or IA point
to depart from the predictions of our model. If a group of humans
were completely isolated, then no mixing could occur between that
group and others, and the MRCA would have to have lived before
the start of the isolation. A more recent MRCA would not arise until
the groups were once again well integrated. In the case of Tasmania,
which may have been completely isolated from mainland Australia
between the flooding of the Bass Strait, 9,000–12,000 years ago, and
the European colonization of the island, starting in 1803 (ref. 13),
the IA date for all living humans must fall before the start of
isolation. However, the MRCA date would be unaffected, because
today there are no remaining native Tasmanians without some
European or mainland Australian ancestry
However I would say that that does affect the other case - the situation where everyone alive in 5400 BC was either a common ancestor of everyone alive today, or has no living descendants.

If Tasmania had been cut off from the rest of Australia from about 7000 BC to European times, then this only works if there are no native Tasmanians with Tasmanian ancestors who were alive in 5400 BC as there is not enough time for the rest of the human population to have had Tasmanian ancestors in the last three hundred years. We can be pretty certain that hasn't happened for the European or Japanese royal families, for example.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:35 AM   #56
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What about Native Americans? Has there been enough time for interbreeding since the discovery of the Americas? or was there some migration happening between the old and new world before that?
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:37 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
What about Native Americans? Has there been enough time for interbreeding since the discovery of the Americas? or was there some migration happening between the old and new world before that?
Yes to the second across the Bering Straight, and possibly the first too.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:39 AM   #58
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That's very cool.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:43 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Sounds like a detective story without murder. Fascinating.
That's an extremely good description. I'd encourage everyone to do it - I suspect everyone's parents and grandparents have/had a tendency to disinfect their ancestors. The reality is SO much more fascinating.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:52 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Sounds like a detective story without murder. Fascinating.
That's an extremely good description. I'd encourage everyone to do it - I suspect everyone's parents and grandparents have/had a tendency to disinfect their ancestors. The reality is SO much more fascinating.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:53 AM   #61
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As an aside, I was recently listening to a Radio4 science programme - I think it was the Infinite Monkey Cage, and they asked the audience to shake hands with the person next to them.

Apparently there was a 50% chance that they'd be fifth cousins.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:38 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If Tasmania had been cut off from the rest of Australia from about 7000 BC to European times, [...]
That's a big if, IMO. You only need one lucky Tasmanian to make it over the sea, is integrated into the local population and leaves offspring; one person in a kanu who takes a chance or is blown off in a storm.
If that happened just once in the last 1000 years then that moves the IA point millenia closer to the present.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:41 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
What about Native Americans? Has there been enough time for interbreeding since the discovery of the Americas? or was there some migration happening between the old and new world before that?
Which discovery of the Americas? Itís a thousand years since the Vikings were there.
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Old 9th September 2018, 06:19 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
That's a big if, IMO. You only need one lucky Tasmanian to make it over the sea, is integrated into the local population and leaves offspring; one person in a kanu who takes a chance or is blown off in a storm.
If that happened just once in the last 1000 years then that moves the IA point millenia closer to the present.
The offspring also need to survive. The Bass Straight was a notoriously dangerous crossing, and not that short.

There are islands that might help with a crossing, but they're not that hospitable. Looking at Wikipedia, Flinders Island (the largest island) did have a population until about 2500 BC and Clarke Island did have a native population into European times. However, you still need to get from there against the wind for about 130km in order to get to Australia, when there was little evidence of the use of boats, certainly not sea-going boats and when they seemed to have stopped catching fish about 4000 years ago.

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/20...nians-stop-ea/
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:06 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Which discovery of the Americas? Itís a thousand years since the Vikings were there.
Was there any interbreeding at that point though? I would suggest a big maybe. As I understand it the Vikings weren't there for long, though admittedly I'm a little vague as to how long.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:16 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
It's so strange and tiresome, isn't it? My mind is tempted to cast itself back to the time when the Church and the establishment flat-out refused to believe that the Earth wasn't the centre of the Universe, around which the Sun and everything else revolved - even when presented with reliable, repeatable scientific evidence to the contrary.

I thought we'd had something called The Enlightenment since then. But having said that, there are still morons in 2018 who insist that the Moon landings were faked in a studio on Earth, or that the US Government rigged the Twin Towers with explosives. It's hard to deal with that sort of level of ignorance and righteousness - especially when careful and repeated explanations of the reliable scientific evidence disproving their positions are just waved away, are ignored, or are incapable of being assimilated by low intellectual capacity.

In this particular instance, a proper, intellectually-adequate understanding of the relevant areas of genetic analysis and statistics shows conclusively that it can reliably be stated that (for example) almost everyone with any European ancestry is a direct descendent of Charlemagne. Anyone claiming otherwise - especially when they appear to be doing so merely on the grounds of what they instinctively believe(!!) - is ignorant and wrong.

But you haven't actually demonstrated that other than to refer us all to Rutherford, who simply churns out populist books on the basis of his name. Rather like Dan Brown, Richard Dawkins, Susan Greenfield or Chris Stringer - they are all the same variation of a theme. These populist 'science' books are just cash cows for the authors and their publishers. Read one, you've read them all.

Such books are fine for the Young Adult market, or people to whom all this is new. However, the rest of us expect something more specific and less generalised.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:20 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post


A scientist who just happens to have a PhD in the topic at hand, genetics, who studied under one of the leading scientists in the field, Steve Jones (who is also a widely respected writer of books presenting science for non-scientists), who was an editor of Nature for 10 years, as well as presenting science in the media. He's written three books so far; the two I've read were hardly 'churned out'; written in an accessible way, but they are fully indexed with references to the original research backing up what's written. I'm not sure what 'mass-produced' is supposed to imply; you seem to think it's derogatory, but since Caxton most books have been 'mass-produced'.

What you've quoted are reviews of his book, not what was said about him (though I don't see anything but praise in what you've quoted). I don't know who you're quoting when you say 'world leading expert', but that is not far from the mark.



What a peculiar thing to suspect. What leads you to this bizarre conclusion? Certainly it's nothing he's actually written.



Rutherford is quoting the conclusion of mathematicians, based on statistics, which in turn is corroborated by the results of DNA analysis. These are not 'gross sweeping generalisations', though large numbers are involved. I can only suggest you actually read his book before displaying your ignorance further.
I am just begging you to stop your logical fallacy of 'appealing to authority'.

Stop patronising us all.

It reminds me of those who like to claim ,'everybody comes first in a race' when eyes can see that they do not. One person comes first, one second and one third (or they tie).

It is not taboo to discuss this. It is an area of sociological interest. People throughout Europe and the world still venerate their unelected monarchs and leaders. It's no good trying to pretend 'we are all egalitarian'.

Let's look at these social issues without fear or trepidation.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:23 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Yes, I think I'll believe the person who thinks mermaids are real over the one with the PhD in genetics on this one.
I see. So you think science is a 'faith'?
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:25 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Hehehe. Couldn't be a better illustration of the old aphorism: "there are none so blind as those who will not see"........
Physician, heal thyself.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:31 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Here's a free copy of the nature article Modelling the recent common
ancestry of all living humans
.
http://math.arizona.edu/~bhallmark/T...aturerohde.pdf

In short, you only need one person to migrate and reproduce succesfully. As soon as they are everyone's ancestor in their new population, all the migrant's ancestors in their source population are also everyone's ancestors in the new population.
Hmm, no. Brian Sykes did a demographical study of British genes (some years ago, so his study is archaic, given the advance in DNA studies since then).

The expectation was that Brits would no longer have the original Briton gene, because of all the invasions over the centuries (Romans, Saxons, Normans, Danes, some Vikings, etc), so the surprise was, this was still a dominant gene, especially in the peripheries, such as Wales, Scotland and Norn Iron.

The revised theory was that the invaders were predominantly male, so thus had to procreate with the indigneous population, who were female, and thus, that line remained relatively pure.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:35 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
As an aside, I was recently listening to a Radio4 science programme - I think it was the Infinite Monkey Cage, and they asked the audience to shake hands with the person next to them.

Apparently there was a 50% chance that they'd be fifth cousins.
I doubt it. I hate this type of patronising comment (the scientist, not you) as though we are all a bunch of morons who have no idea humans are interrelated, and we are all expected to gasp with surprise at the revelation.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:38 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The offspring also need to survive. The Bass Straight was a notoriously dangerous crossing, and not that short.

There are islands that might help with a crossing, but they're not that hospitable. Looking at Wikipedia, Flinders Island (the largest island) did have a population until about 2500 BC and Clarke Island did have a native population into European times. However, you still need to get from there against the wind for about 130km in order to get to Australia, when there was little evidence of the use of boats, certainly not sea-going boats and when they seemed to have stopped catching fish about 4000 years ago.

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/20...nians-stop-ea/
Well, the Melanesians (Papua New Guinea) are known to have been great sea farers, for their genes ended up in populations the other side of the world in North America.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:06 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am just begging you to stop your logical fallacy of 'appealing to authority'.
I guess we add logical fallacies to the list of things you don't understand.

We're not just saying it's true because Adam Rutherford says it is, we're referring to his fully referenced, published material based on peer-reviewed research.
Quote:

It is not taboo to discuss this. It is an area of sociological interest. People throughout Europe and the world still venerate their unelected monarchs and leaders. It's no good trying to pretend 'we are all egalitarian'.
What does that have to do with the price of fish?
Quote:
Let's look at these social issues without fear or trepidation.
Who's doing otherwise? You're the one who seems to think there's something special about royalty.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:07 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The expectation was that Brits would no longer have the original Briton gene,
The what now?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
the indigneous population, who were female,





Something similar to what you meant to say did happen in Iceland, where the DNA of whole population has been analysed, IIRC, as well as many of the original settlers. The men were nearly all from Scandinavia, two thirds of the women from Ireland and Scotland.
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Old 9th September 2018, 06:25 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I guess we add logical fallacies to the list of things you don't understand.

We're not just saying it's true because Adam Rutherford says it is, we're referring to his fully referenced, published material based on peer-reviewed research.

What does that have to do with the price of fish?


Who's doing otherwise? You're the one who seems to think there's something special about royalty.
What does Rutherford have to do with Berkmann's family tree? He is a geneticist, not a genealogist.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:34 PM   #76
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Quote:
It not like I’m gonna be sitting on the English throne anytime soon even if I didn’t have older brothers.

Good, 'cause I'm claiming it, despite the lack of English ancestors per 23andme. I just think I could be more interesting than the present occupant. (My grandmother liked to claim noble descent from eastern European nobility, but even if it were true there was the problem of my grandfather's eight elder brothers.)
Quote:

[per Vixen] Oh dear. Your knowledge of the world hangs on the words of a populist scientist who churns out mass produced paperbacks patronising people and believes his own opinion as fact.

Thanks for the back-handed recommendation - I've put Rutherford's book on reserve at my local library.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:43 PM   #77
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You guys do realise that there's a difference between familial descent and genetics, right?
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Old 9th September 2018, 09:00 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am just begging you to stop your logical fallacy of 'appealing to authority'.

Stop patronising us all.

It reminds me of those who like to claim ,'everybody comes first in a race' when eyes can see that they do not. One person comes first, one second and one third (or they tie).

It is not taboo to discuss this. It is an area of sociological interest. People throughout Europe and the world still venerate their unelected monarchs and leaders. It's no good trying to pretend 'we are all egalitarian'.

Let's look at these social issues without fear or trepidation.
Oh stop! Do the math. Let Wm the Conjurer be generation 0. Or Charlemagne. Or Julius Caesar.

See Lothian's calculations above and do the math. He's allowed for a very conservative 2 offspring per "issue". In the case of Willie the C, that's rather conservative. While they locked away most of the girl children one of them had 8 kids and one of Williams king-children had 11. Ergo Wm. the Conqueror had 19 grandchildren, not the 4 Lothian is allowing!

Add two offspring every 25 years for the number of the previous generation that are still of breeding age.

You can make a spreadsheet for it. Even reducing the population of England by half (which it wasn't) for the Black Death, Bubonic Plague, WWI+Spanish Flu, WWII..... There would be 100 billion distant relatives of The Conqueror in the current generation.

@Lothian - if you take the numbers we can verify in those first couple of generations after Hastings, the figure is more like a trillion!!!
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Old 9th September 2018, 09:06 PM   #79
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This is why familial descent can not be thought of the same way genetic inheritance is. There obviously aren't a trillion people. Add to that the possible number of descendents of Genghis Khan, and for that matter every other person who has ever lived, and you descend into a meaningless mess. Which should be your clue that you are thinking about it the wrong way.

Genealogy exists. People keep family trees, because they can meaningfully demonstrate familial ancestry and descent.
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Old 9th September 2018, 09:13 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is why familial descent can not be thought of the same way genetic inheritance is. There obviously aren't a trillion people. Add to that the possible number of descendents of Genghis Khan, and for that matter every other person who has ever lived, and you descend into a meaningless mess. Which should be your clue that you are thinking about it the wrong way.

Genealogy exists. People keep family trees, because they can meaningfully demonstrate familial ancestry and descent.
Well, the math required to get to a trillion is seriously flawed, obviously. With William as Gen Zero, by about the sixth or seventh generation we'd be in the tens of thousands.... if they exclusively out-bred. They didn't. By that generation they were boinking distant cousins so many many of those pairs were "ones" and not "twos". The multiplicand is reduced exponentially, I'm sure.
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