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Old 12th September 2018, 12:08 PM   #1161
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As I said before, it's not about killing people. It's about priorities and assessments. If I break into your home, I don't expect fairness if the owner happens to be there. I chose a life of crime. As a citizen, I value the safety of innocents more than those of criminals; even though I know they are human beigns, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt when they are engaging in a crime, at least one that could be construed as lethally dangerous to someone else.
To add, I also do not expect someone to behave completely rationally if there is an intruder in their house in the middle of the night. They're going to be afraid, and the adrenaline is going to be pumping. Contrast that with the guy who calmly and rationally made the decision to shoot people burgling his neighbors house. It had nothing to do with protecting himself or his family, he decided he was judge, jury, and executioner.
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Old 12th September 2018, 12:15 PM   #1162
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I caught just a snippet of a defense attorney on the news who was unrelated to the case but opined that based on the arrest warrant presented so far he would have no problem getting her off completely. Apparently there was no mention of negligence at all in the arrest warrant, and that is kind of a big part of negligent homicide. .
Except for the fact that she's a cop, I seriously doubt that a judge would allow a defense of "she should have been charged with murder" as a defense against manslaughter.
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Old 12th September 2018, 12:18 PM   #1163
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
To add, I also do not expect someone to behave completely rationally if there is an intruder in their house in the middle of the night. They're going to be afraid, and the adrenaline is going to be pumping. Contrast that with the guy who calmly and rationally made the decision to shoot people burgling his neighbors house. It had nothing to do with protecting himself or his family, he decided he was judge, jury, and executioner.
Wasn't there a guy a couple of years back who essentially enticed a couple of youngsters into entering his home so he could shoot them?
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Old 12th September 2018, 12:23 PM   #1164
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's not a stretch at all. Many of the skeptics here are sounding like the comments section on Breitbart. When a white cop shoots a black guy, I guess critical thinking skills shut down.

Mistake in accidentally shooting a loved one: Doesn't expect anyone home so shoots before recognizing loved one.

Mistakes in this case:
Parks one floor up.
Walks down well lit hall to apartment with different number.
Doesn't notice bright red mat in front of door.
Either doesn't notice door ajar, or notices & decides to investigate herself instead of calling for help/backup.
Sees a form, issues commands, fires.

Yeah it's a stretch.
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Old 12th September 2018, 12:36 PM   #1165
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Mistake in accidentally shooting a loved one: Doesn't expect anyone home so shoots before recognizing loved one.

Mistakes in this case:
Parks one floor up.
Walks down well lit hall to apartment with different number.
Doesn't notice bright red mat in front of door.
Either doesn't notice door ajar, or notices & decides to investigate herself instead of calling for help/backup.
Sees a form, issues commands, fires.

Yeah it's a stretch.
I actually can see 1 thru 5 happening quite easily. It's past the threshold when things start to unravel.
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Old 12th September 2018, 12:53 PM   #1166
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
Great picture of the lock!~

Looks like Dorma's Saflock InSync series.

https://www.dormakaba.com/us-en/solu...-series-293070

If it is then the lockset does store an audit trail of key usage, including different copies of individual change keys (a term used for the key used uniquely for that lockset, as opposed to a master key, which would also be IDed by the audit record).
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:01 PM   #1167
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wasn't there a guy a couple of years back who essentially enticed a couple of youngsters into entering his home so he could shoot them?
Yes. Byron Smith, in Minnesota, and he didn't really entice them, he just waited for them to come back, reclined in a chair with a book and an energy bar, and shot them in cold blood. Even taunted them after they were shot that they were going to die.

Quote:
On November 22, 2012, Kifer and Brady broke into Smith's home. Video surveillance captured the teens casing the property prior to the break-in.[10] By his own account to police, Smith was in the basement when he shot Brady twice at the top of the basement stairs, and once in the face fatally after he fell to the bottom of the stairs. Minutes later when Kifer entered the basement, he shot her at the top of the stairs. Wounded, she fell down the stairs, and after Smith's rifle jammed, he shot her multiple times in the chest with a 22-caliber revolver, dragged her across the floor to set her beside the body of her cousin, and then shot her fatally under the chin.[1] Smith then waited until the next day to have a neighbor call police, saying that he did not want to bother law enforcement on Thanksgiving.[1] Audio and video of the events were recorded by Smith's security system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_...Smith_killings
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:02 PM   #1168
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
If it is then the lockset does store an audit trail of key usage, including different copies of individual change keys (a term used for the key used uniquely for that lockset, as opposed to a master key, which would also be IDed by the audit record).
Yes .. there is a lot of different models and options .. but it seems they all have at least the audit trial feature.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:03 PM   #1169
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This would throw a wrench in any prosecution of this case.

If they can show the officer reasonably believed she was in her own apartment.

[R]easonable force may be used upon or toward the person of another without the other's consent when the following circumstances exist or the actor reasonably believes them to exist
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:06 PM   #1170
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I caught just a snippet of a defense attorney on the news who was unrelated to the case but opined that based on the arrest warrant presented so far he would have no problem getting her off completely. Apparently there was no mention of negligence at all in the arrest warrant, and that is kind of a big part of negligent homicide.

My take is that the DA doesn't want to seem to eager and will let a grand jury decide how she should be charged.
That attorney sounds like an idiot. What a person is arrested for can be and often is different than what the DA end up charging the person for and saying that because a warrant doesn't mention negligence sounds to me laughably incompetent.



Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't think that retreating is an undue burden. Especially under circumstances where there is imperfect information.
Retreating is not necessarily an undue burden but sometimes it is.



Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I genuinely don't think it is. I quite like the legal duty to retreat. It vastly reduces the chances of shooting misidentified targets. It also vastly reduces the chances of someone actually being shot, either by design or accident.

With a clear escape route and incomplete information about the nature of the threat, it would seem extremely unwise not to retreat. They can have my telly. Hell, they can my guitars, although I'd be sad.
There's a difference between "should retreat" and "obligated by law to retreat."

The problem with "obligated by law to retreat" is that the victim in this case is the one who is thoroughly questioned and must affirmatively prove that she could not retreat before defending herself rather than the intruder having to prove anything. It's just bizarre.



Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's not a stretch at all. Many of the skeptics here are sounding like the comments section on Breitbart. When a white cop shoots a black guy, I guess critical thinking skills shut down.
You know, this is way out of line considering the overall tone and civility of the thread.




Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There may be undertones - for some - that to retreat is unmanly or not macho enough. Those people are nutters too.
Or cops.

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Old 12th September 2018, 01:08 PM   #1171
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's not a stretch at all. Many of the skeptics here are sounding like the comments section on Breitbart. When a white cop shoots a black guy, I guess critical thinking skills shut down.
*Deadpan* Oh not the "No True Skeptics" card. Anything but that.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:21 PM   #1172
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
That attorney sounds like an idiot. What a person is arrested for can be and often is different than what the DA end up charging the person for and saying that because a warrant doesn't mention negligence sounds to me laughably incompetent.
Yeah, I may be the idiot.

I was feeding the dogs and sort of saw it in passing, so I may not have captured the heart of his argument very well. My first thought was exactly in line with your second sentence.
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:05 PM   #1173
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Mistake in accidentally shooting a loved one: Doesn't expect anyone home so shoots before recognizing loved one.

Mistakes in this case:
Parks one floor up.
Walks down well lit hall to apartment with different number.
Doesn't notice bright red mat in front of door.
Either doesn't notice door ajar, or notices & decides to investigate herself instead of calling for help/backup.
Sees a form, issues commands, fires.

Yeah it's a stretch.
I have to agree.

There were so many visible and obvious clues she was in the wrong place, that I simply cannot accept the rationale that she "mistakenly thought it was her apartment" as reasonable.

I saw earlier on social media, a claim that this same person had filed a noise complaint earlier in the same day against the individual she killed. Does anybody have any links that speak to the truth or falsity of that claim?
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:21 PM   #1174
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Thanks.

His point was that the words reckless and negligent were not used in the warrant. I'm not sure that is a salient point since the indictment is not contained by the arrest warrant, but we will see.
That is the actual charge in the warrant, though.
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:46 PM   #1175
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If it was too dark to identify the target and what's around and behind it YOU DON'T SHOOT!

You don't get to fire into the darkness hoping to hit a threat that might exist within it. That's madness.
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
I agree here .. if we are making predictions ... I think this is a likely one ... she could be convicted of negligence causing death ...

And get one year maybe 18 months and a heavy fine (max for the crime is two years and $10,000 in Texas)
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Given that Texas has the crime of Negligent Homicide (IIRC) I'd say that was an obvious minimum charge
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I think firing at a dark shadow, as she apparently said she did, is the definition of reckless.

I did a Google search of "manslaughter laws in Texas" yesterday, which yielded (amon others) this rather concise summary about manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.

It discusses points which have been generally covered already in this thread, but one thing I found interesting was a link to a case, Chambless v. State, which he described as follows;
Quote:
Defendant woke up in the middle of the night due to noises in his front yard. Assuming it was a neighbors dog, Defendant fired a semi-automatic rifle three to five times into the yard. Unbeknownst to Defendant, the victim, a neighbor was in his yard and had been hit by the bullets.
In search of more detail I found this document, reporting the appeal which the defendant, Chambliss, lost.


There are two aspects of this which I found interesting and possibly of some relevance to the case we are discussing.

The first is that Chamblis was charged with second degree felony manslaughter, but the jury's instructions included the option to return the lesser offense of criminally negligent homicide.

The jury acquitted him of the manslaughter charge, but found him guilty of criminally negligent homicide.

The second is that although, as has been reported here, the penalty for criminally negligent homicide is 180 days to two years, and up to a $10,000 fine, the use of a deadly weapon can increase the penalty to as much as ten years. The jury also received this instruction.

He was sentenced to eight years, because he used a firearm.

His appeal was based on a challenge to the jury instructions.

He lost his appeal, as I mentioned above.

So our killer could possibly face as much as ten years in jail, even on the charge of criminally negligent homicide.
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:53 PM   #1176
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
By law in Texas, doors on residences should require no more than 5 pounds of force to open.
Which means the door didn't open when she tried her key...

It opened when she pushed it open.

After not noticing the door mat, the lit up door number, and the red light for her key in the lock.
Exactly. The affidavit account we have seen suggests that the door opened as a result of her inserting her key.

This seems a bit hinky. Five pounds is not a negligible amount of force. By comparison, a gallon jug of water weighs eight pounds.

Merely sticking her key in the lock wouldn't require that.
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:55 PM   #1177
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I have to agree.

There were so many visible and obvious clues she was in the wrong place, that I simply cannot accept the rationale that she "mistakenly thought it was her apartment" as reasonable.

I saw earlier on social media, a claim that this same person had filed a noise complaint earlier in the same day against the individual she killed. Does anybody have any links that speak to the truth or falsity of that claim?
I heard that as well. I believe it came from the family's lawyer so I have to take it with the proverbial grain of salt.
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:55 PM   #1178
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, if she were shooting in from the hallway, who was holding the door open?

Very good point.
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:57 PM   #1179
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I did a Google search of "manslaughter laws in Texas" yesterday, which yielded (amon others) this rather concise summary about manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.

It discusses points which have been generally covered already in this thread, but one thing I found interesting was a link to a case, Chambless v. State, which he described as follows;
In search of more detail I found this document, reporting the appeal which the defendant, Chambliss, lost.


There are two aspects of this which I found interesting and possibly of some relevance to the case we are discussing.

The first is that Chamblis was charged with second degree felony manslaughter, but the jury's instructions included the option to return the lesser offense of criminally negligent homicide.

The jury acquitted him of the manslaughter charge, but found him guilty of criminally negligent homicide.

The second is that although, as has been reported here, the penalty for criminally negligent homicide is 180 days to two years, and up to a $10,000 fine, the use of a deadly weapon can increase the penalty to as much as ten years. The jury also received this instruction.

He was sentenced to eight years, because he used a firearm.

His appeal was based on a challenge to the jury instructions.

He lost his appeal, as I mentioned above.

So our killer could possibly face as much as ten years in jail, even on the charge of criminally negligent homicide.
Thanks for that. I was wondering if Texas had a 10-20-life type law.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:00 PM   #1180
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Spring-loaded self-closure for sure.

She is releasing the door from a near or fully open position. Consequently, the door has speed and momentum. I'd be curious about an experiment of releasing the door from a position of being open by only an inch or a fraction of an inch.

Most people will walk through such a doorway and allow it to close behind them in a normal fashion.

Trying to get it to close without latching would require intent. Why would a resident do that? The door can be left unlocked when closed, it isn't like a hotel door which locks every time it closes.

If Jean had intended for the door to not be locked, he would have simply left it unlocked.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:02 PM   #1181
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
There are lots of ways to defeat that, if one is so inclined, generally using something (either part of the door itself or an external object, to block the door from closing.

But why would Jean do that? He had no need to.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:09 PM   #1182
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This is from a column in the Dallas News written by Sharon Grigsby:
Quote:
Even the scenario most sympathetic to Guyger — she was off duty, she parked on the wrong floor of the parking garage, she thought she was entering her own apartment, the door was unlocked and lights were out — doesn’t give her license to be so quick on the trigger. Link
But a Dallas defense attorney named Brad Lollar told the News, she may well give that account:
Quote:
"If she is saying, 'The door opened, I saw a figure, I thought it was a burglar, I thought it was my house,'" Lollar said, "There is nothing reckless about pulling the trigger. She intended to pull the trigger." Link
The Texas Castle Doctrine law gives people the right to:
Quote:
...use deadly force not just to protect a person, but also to protect personal property, including to “retrieve stolen property at night,” during “criminal mischief in the nighttime” and even to prevent someone who is fleeing immediately after a theft during the night or a burglary or robbery, so long as the individual “reasonably” thinks the property cannot be protected by other means. Link
Mind you, I'm not arguing Guyger was justified, because I don't think she was. I would like to see some duty to retreat written into these laws. But the reality is, the duty to retreat has been written out of these laws, in part due to strenuous lobbying by the NRA. I've reviewed dozens of these cases and I'm fairly certain Guyger has a decent chance of being acquitted.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:11 PM   #1183
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Did Amber Guyger kill Botham Shem Jean over noise? Family lawyer sees link

Originally Posted by The Grio
"And there were noise complaints from the immediate downstairs neighbors about whoever was upstairs, and that would have been Botham. In fact, there were noise complaints that very day about upstairs activity in Botham’s apartment. Botham received a phone call about noise coming from his apartment from the downstairs neighbor.”

https://thegrio.com/2018/09/12/botha...oise-complaint
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:12 PM   #1184
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Exactly. The affidavit account we have seen suggests that the door opened as a result of her inserting her key.

This seems a bit hinky. Five pounds is not a negligible amount of force. By comparison, a gallon jug of water weighs eight pounds.

Merely sticking her key in the lock wouldn't require that.
<Brit> A proper gallon of water weighs ten pounds because a proper pint weighs 20 Oz and there are eight proper pints to a proper gallon </Brit>
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:13 PM   #1185
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I did a Google search of "manslaughter laws in Texas" yesterday, which yielded (amon others) this rather concise summary about manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.

It discusses points which have been generally covered already in this thread, but one thing I found interesting was a link to a case, Chambless v. State, which he described as follows;
In search of more detail I found this document, reporting the appeal which the defendant, Chambliss, lost.


There are two aspects of this which I found interesting and possibly of some relevance to the case we are discussing.

The first is that Chamblis was charged with second degree felony manslaughter, but the jury's instructions included the option to return the lesser offense of criminally negligent homicide.

The jury acquitted him of the manslaughter charge, but found him guilty of criminally negligent homicide.

The second is that although, as has been reported here, the penalty for criminally negligent homicide is 180 days to two years, and up to a $10,000 fine, the use of a deadly weapon can increase the penalty to as much as ten years. The jury also received this instruction.

He was sentenced to eight years, because he used a firearm.

His appeal was based on a challenge to the jury instructions.

He lost his appeal, as I mentioned above.

So our killer could possibly face as much as ten years in jail, even on the charge of criminally negligent homicide.
Thanks, and his negligence was less than Guyger, IMO
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:34 PM   #1186
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Did Amber Guyger kill Botham Shem Jean over noise? Family lawyer sees link




https://thegrio.com/2018/09/12/botha...oise-complaint
Was the complaint about the night before/earlier time? Otherwise, if she was working all day how did she know Jean was being loud?
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:41 PM   #1187
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Was the complaint about the night before/earlier time? Otherwise, if she was working all day how did she know Jean was being loud?
if she went straight home after 15 hour shift, that means she left around 7am. unless he was up all night, hard to complain when you're not home.

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Old 12th September 2018, 03:55 PM   #1188
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Did Amber Guyger kill Botham Shem Jean over noise? Family lawyer sees link
So what's the narrative on this one? Jean's been noisy in the past, maybe gotten into it with the neighbors over the noise, Guyger comes home after a long shift, maybe she hears noise from the apartment, maybe she just want to ask him to keep down that night so she can get some sleep, words get said, tempers rise, bang bang?

I mean... maybe. Simple altercations that lead to violence are a thing that can happen but if that's what happened... why did we get the story we did?

If your Guyger isn't "Hey I went to talk to him about the noise, things got heated, I felt threatened, things got out of hand" a story you'd rather tell then the convoluted "Wrong apartment with door in a quantum flux of being ajar" one? Seems like it would be easier to paint yourself the good guy in the former than the later.

I mean... maybe she panicked and lied and just kept lying trying to get out of it but... I don't know.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:55 PM   #1189
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Can I take your response to indicate that you would also be in favor of prosecuting the victim if he had shot her instead of the other way around?
I accept that Texas (and other parts of the U.S) have a Castle Doctrine or similar set of laws. In many situations I can see a benefit, at the same time they seem to be dangerous laws that encourage an esccalation process between criminals and residents. That aside they go from being dangerous to terrible laws if they allow someone to kill in a situation such as this. The laws ideally should allow defense of a property, and not have alleged (idiot enabling) loopholes this big. Basically anyone defending "their" property under these laws should have to actually and in reality be on or in there property, and so should the person they are shooting at, the intruder should also be advancing and not running away or surrendering. Basically the law should be more specific and to a high standard. Some people and police have been getting away with murder due to poorly written laws and the enablement of pro gun culture, emotions and stupidity for too long. The emphasis should be on sensible gun culture with the presevation of life, health and safety a priority.

As it stands if I have read them correctly the Castle laws state nothing about belief, they only mention legalities and therefore the belief of the accused should not play a role in any conviction, but could be taken into account, along with character witnesses in sentencing.

Ultimately with the evidence available to a layman such as myself, I believe had he shot her, under the current laws he would not be guilty of any crime. Because she shot him regardless of her beliefs, it was not reasonable that she shoot him under the law and therefore she should be found guilty of at least manslaughter (or equivalent).

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Old 12th September 2018, 03:56 PM   #1190
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I may have missed something in this fast moving thread, but aside from various other factors, it seems to me that one clear problem with citing the castle doctrine in favor of the shooter is that she was outside, and he was inside. While it may well be that it is within her technical right to shoot an intruder in her house, to do so was both unnecessary and imprudent. If, as is contended, the door was ajar and she presumed that the intruder had entered in by it, all she had to do was call in the crime and wait outside. As long as she was outside the apartment, she was not in the position of herself being intruded upon - only what she presumed was her property.

This is a very different situation from the opposite, in which a person is at home and an intruder enters. Again, I reiterate that her supposed right is directly incompatible with his, and while he had no rational means to avoid the confrontation she obviously did. She was not placed in a situation where her only option was to shoot him. She was always free to stay outside.

I am not privy to the finer points of Texas castle doctrine, but if it does not matter whether one is inside or outside of the castle when lethal force is used, it ought to. Clearly if one is not oneself threatened, one's only fear is for property.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:59 PM   #1191
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
If he had no reason to have his door proper open it could spread resposibility

For example if the door was defective or not maintained that could add some responsibility to the building owner or management ... if he routinely left his door propped open for no reason (technically illegal because of fire codes) that could add some responsibility to him

It's REALLY reading though I admit ... but it's a distant possibility
Nope, maybe if he was burgled while leaving the door ajar an insurance company may refuse to pay due to "negligence" depending on the policy conditions, or he could possibly be fined for fire safety violations if applicable, but ultimately its his damn door. If he wants to leave it open it does not give anyone any right to walk onto his property and shoot him no matter how delusional they may be.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:01 PM   #1192
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue
...Guyger comes home after a long shift, maybe she hears noise from the apartment, maybe she just want to ask him to keep down that night so she can get some sleep, words get said, tempers rise, bang bang?
But then why is the car on 4 instead of 3?
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:11 PM   #1193
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But then why is the car on 4 instead of 3?
I have no idea. Maybe the 3rd floor was full. Maybe she missed her normal parking space. Maybe she's just someone who parks wherever.

This is what drives me crazy about the MiscarriageOfJustice Fandom. This isn't a Sherlock Holmes story or an episode of Columbo where every knickknack that's an inch out of place on the shelf is THE CLUE that's gonna crack the case.

People aren't robots that follow the exact same daily routine everyday to such a degree that every divination from it has to be a sign of something.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:25 PM   #1194
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yeah, I may be the idiot.
Oh, no, I hope you understand I'm not saying or implying that you are idiotic or anything in posting the quote.


Quote:
I was feeding the dogs and sort of saw it in passing, so I may not have captured the heart of his argument very well. My first thought was exactly in line with your second sentence.
No worries. I mean, sure, the law and courts sometimes produce some very strange truths but in the case you quote, it seems just too good to be true.



Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
But a Dallas defense attorney named Brad Lollar told the News, she may well give that account:
Quote:
"If she is saying, 'The door opened, I saw a figure, I thought it was a burglar, I thought it was my house,'" Lollar said, "There is nothing reckless about pulling the trigger. She intended to pull the trigger."
Right — pulling the trigger is not reckless, but the series of actions which brought her to parking in the wrong spot, going to the wrong apartment, and pulling a gun rather than a plethora of other weapons is reckless.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:27 PM   #1195
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I wonder if she explained what happened to the responders (or anyone else) before she learned that Jean had died. If she made up a stack of lies to make it look like a terrible mistake and then Jean survives his gunshot wound she could be toast.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:41 PM   #1196
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
<Brit> A proper gallon of water weighs ten pounds because a proper pint weighs 20 Oz and there are eight proper pints to a proper gallon </Brit>
<annoying kiwi>What if his hypothetical jug was made of lead and weighed 5kg? That would mean if it was filled with a gallon of water it would weigh 336.37 Oz</annoying kiwi>
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:43 PM   #1197
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Texas law only requires the Castle Doctrine shooter to be in "a place they have the legal right to be." That is where this case differs from most. Guyger reportedly was in Jean's apartment when she fired the shots and she probably did not have a legal right to be there. The problem is, she did not knowingly enter someone else's apartment, or so she has sworn in her affidavit. The comments I have read by some lawyers are that the mistake of fact doctrine should absolve Guyger of being in a place she did not have a right to be. Below is a quote from a legal site, the Cornell University Law School, and was written way before this recent incident. Nonetheless, it very well might apply:

Quote:
In criminal law, a mistake of fact can usually operate as a defense so long as it is reasonable. With crimes that require specific intent, even an unreasonable mistake of fact might work as a defense. Link
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:47 PM   #1198
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Yes. Byron Smith, in Minnesota, and he didn't really entice them, he just waited for them to come back, reclined in a chair with a book and an energy bar, and shot them in cold blood. Even taunted them after they were shot that they were going to die.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_...Smith_killings
Holy hell that is disturbing. I wasn't familiar with that case. Thanks... I think.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:50 PM   #1199
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder if she explained what happened to the responders (or anyone else) before she learned that Jean had died. If she made up a stack of lies to make it look like a terrible mistake and then Jean survives his gunshot wound she could be toast.
Reportedly she apologized to Jean on the scene, presumably while he was still conscious. She has also been described as crying when questioned by officers.

Quote:
Guyger called 911 crying, the official said. She repeatedly said, “I thought it was my apartment” and apologized to Jean. “I’m so sorry,” she can be heard saying on the recording of the 911 call, the official said. Police arrived within four minutes. A video taken by someone at the apartment complex shows Guyger in the hallway crying and pacing with a phone to her ear. Link
I can accept the fact this was an accidental shooting. But the fact remains, she took someone's life needlessly. I think she has to own that.
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Old 12th September 2018, 05:25 PM   #1200
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Reportedly she apologized to Jean on the scene, presumably while he was still conscious. She has also been described as crying when questioned by officers.
He may have been unconscious when she apologized to him. Alive but unconscious.

I wonder if his wound was such that he could not holler out "Oh my god, why did you do that?" or maybe not loud enough to be heard by the neighbors. I don't know if any medical examiner could or would give an opinion on his ability to yell out.


Quote:
I can accept the fact this was an accidental shooting. But the fact remains, she took someone's life needlessly. I think she has to own that.
That may have been her own thoughts right after the shooting and even now. I have done a horrible terrible thing that was a mistake. I killed a man that should not have been killed at all. I have to own that and my fate will be in the hands of others, just as his fate was in my hands. I shall tell the truth of what happened. There is no other way for me.
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