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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial isssues

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Old 10th September 2018, 01:58 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Slight hijack//

I don't give elected officials cutsie-poo names and that's regardless of how much I like or respect them.

I would never call Warren "Pocahontas" but I also never called George H. Bush "Shrub" or "Dubya" (although I heard he liked that one) or Trump as "Cheeto" or anything else.



Amen. If someone does this silly nickname stuff, I mostly ignore their posts, because they are literally telling me that you don't want to be serious. Some posters do it so much that it's hard to follow their writing.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Wiki has a nice summation of the issue:




It seems like a non-issue that can neither be proven nor disproven. She never made a big deal out it. She never got any advantage from it. DNA testing would neither prove nor disprove anything. Lack of genealogical sources shows that she has no known ancestors on any of the tribal records, but those records are known to be incomplete. She never brought the issue up in the campaign, her opponent did.

What she has is a claim of a story passed down through her family - nothing more, nothing less.

In Mass. US Senate race, a question of heritage
Let me just point out that it seems just a little weird that she did not gain any advantage from it. We hear the claims that diversity is not just a valid goal but a mandate. Here's a woman with Native American heritage (a two-fer) and nobody felt that mattered at all? Nobody saw it as a plus?
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let me just point out that it seems just a little weird that she did not gain any advantage from it. We hear the claims that diversity is not just a valid goal but a mandate. Here's a woman with Native American heritage (a two-fer) and nobody felt that mattered at all? Nobody saw it as a plus?
How many politicians get votes for having Irish names?
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:30 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
It will affect their opinion on whether they can affix a catchy insulting name to Warren and hope it sticks.
It has already stuck. It is done and the she will never win a national election because she would spend more time on this than anything substantive.

I like her and still I don't want to talk about this issue.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It has already stuck. It is done and the she will never win a national election because she would spend more time on this than anything substantive.
.
See? It worked. A totally baseless smear campaign has made it so she can't effectively run for office.

I mean, it took 25 years of that to get to Clinton, and she still almost pulled it off. But here, one baseless claim that EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE would be irrelevant and it's enough to get people to dismiss her.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let me just point out that it seems just a little weird that she did not gain any advantage from it. We hear the claims that diversity is not just a valid goal but a mandate. Here's a woman with Native American heritage (a two-fer) and nobody felt that mattered at all? Nobody saw it as a plus?
There are multiple quotes from multiple people stating that they did not consider this when hiring her.

Ethnicity not a factor in Elizabeth Warren’s rise in law

Quote:
In the most exhaustive review undertaken of Elizabeth Warren’s professional history, the Globe found clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools. At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman.
It did not help her at the ballot box either, as the issue did not come to the public's attention until her GOP opponent brought it up:

Scott Brown hits Elizabeth Warren’s Native American claim in new ad


Everything you need to know about Elizabeth Warren’s claim of Native American heritage
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:00 PM   #47
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A liberal takes the advantage of claiming minority status to apply for liberal jobs at liberal institutions, and the liberals there claim they gave her no consideration of her minority status?

Not much skepticism here on the liberal side of the ISF aisle today.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It has already stuck. It is done and the she will never win a national election because she would spend more time on this than anything substantive.

I like her and still I don't want to talk about this issue.
I seriously doubt it will have any measurable impact on her campaign.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:07 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Appropriation is a power dynamic in which members of a dominant culture take elements from a culture of people who have been systematically oppressed by that dominant group.
I'd think you're be glad that the "oppressor" actually appreciates part of the "oppressed"'s culture. Sounds like the start of understanding, to me, rather than some nefarious thing.

It's when the disadvantaged culture is targeted for elimination that you can call it nefarious.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:14 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'd think you're be glad that the "oppressor" actually appreciates part of the "oppressed"'s culture. Sounds like the start of understanding, to me, rather than some nefarious thing.

It's when the disadvantaged culture is targeted for elimination that you can call it nefarious.
I think this sub-discussion begs for a separate thread.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:17 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'd think you're be glad that the "oppressor" actually appreciates part of the "oppressed"'s culture. Sounds like the start of understanding, to me, rather than some nefarious thing.

It's when the disadvantaged culture is targeted for elimination that you can call it nefarious.
The minority culture is denied opportunity to exploit their own heritage. While white women are able to navigate the majority culture and transform when their braids become acceptable chic, black women still face an uphill struggle to have their braids not viewed as bad.

It would be great if the majority culture would consume the appropriated item from everyone equally. But they don't.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:17 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
A liberal takes the advantage of claiming minority status to apply for liberal jobs at liberal institutions, and the liberals there claim they gave her no consideration of her minority status?
Speaking as a fairly liberal person who has claimed (actual) minority status in hopes of better treatment in the admissions process at highly selective institutions, lol, wat?
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:15 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
A liberal takes the advantage of claiming minority status to apply for liberal jobs at liberal institutions, and the liberals there claim they gave her no consideration of her minority status?

Not much skepticism here on the liberal side of the ISF aisle today.
That they gave her no consideration is different than claiming there is no evidence to support a conclusion she definitely did take advantage. Are you claiming she did, and what definite evidence do you have?

By the way, I am not a liberal, just letting you know in advance to head off further blanket claims.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:54 PM   #54
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As others have said I wish Warren hadn't brought the distant ancestor thing up in the first place. It's silly to me.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:57 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
As others have said I wish Warren hadn't brought the distant ancestor thing up in the first place. It's silly to me.
SHE didn't bring it up. She was asked, and she answered.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:25 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Speaking as a fairly liberal person who has claimed (actual) minority status in hopes of better treatment in the admissions process at highly selective institutions, lol, wat?
So you didn't get in after all?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:27 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
So you didn't get in after all?
Did Elizabeth Warren claim minority status for admissions?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:31 PM   #58
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Perhaps I'm not being clear enough here.

What exactly is the big deal in using your (actual) ancestry in your favor, when in academia?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:42 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It has already stuck. It is done and the she will never win a national election because she would spend more time on this than anything substantive.
I don't think it's preventing her from ANYTHING. I can't see her winning a national election for one reason and one reason only. Her age. Not this faux nonsense.
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I like her and still I don't want to talk about this issue.
I think she is fantastic. I'd have voted for her over Hillary or Bernie. Do we really want to run a 70 year old for office...even though Trump will be 74?
But maybe. People still voted for Obama despite his pastor and birtherism.

Her heritage only matters to political junkies on social media and frankly i think for them it serves as only something to talk about. They don't actually care.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:50 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think it's preventing her from ANYTHING. I can't see her winning a national election for one reason and one reason only. Her age. Not this faux nonsense.
This is just silly, given the age of the current POTUS.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:50 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think it's preventing her from ANYTHING. I can't see her winning a national election for one reason and one reason only. Her age. Not this faux nonsense.


I think she is fantastic. I'd have voted for her over Hillary or Bernie. Do we really want to run a 70 year old for office...even though Trump will be 74?
But maybe. People still voted for Obama despite his pastor and birtherism.

Her heritage only matters to political junkies on social media and frankly i think for them it serves as only something to talk about. They don't actually care.
I agree with her most of the time, and think she would do a fine job as POTUS. Yet I have an even more superficial reason for thinking she would have a difficult time winning -her voice. It sounds like a caricature of a condescending grade school teacher's. I would that that were not the case- but I find the sound of her voice distracts from the content of her words.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:56 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Do we really want to run a 70 year old for office...even though Trump will be 74?
But maybe. People still voted for Obama despite his pastor and birtherism.
I'd vote for the right person even if they were 90. I'd trust them to pick a good VP in the event that they croaked or became too ill to finish their term.

It's also worth noting that women tend to live a few more years than men.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:00 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Democrats are hounding people all over the country for "cultural appropriation". With Fauxcahontas we have what I would think is the highest level of cultural appropriation possible, yet the Democrats yawn and say, "Nothing to see here, please move along". No calls for her to prove it or resign. Nada. There is some serious hypocrisy going on here. Don't even try to convince me she wouldn't be getting Red Henned if she was a Republican.
Laughable, top to bottom. On a skeptic forum, no less.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:08 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
This is just silly, given the age of the current POTUS.
OK, it's silly. Trump is oldest person ever elected a President.

I just think a younger candidate tends to do better. An athletic charismatic 48 year old might do better.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:11 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd vote for the right person even if they were 90. I'd trust them to pick a good VP in the event that they croaked or became too ill to finish their term.

It's also worth noting that women tend to live a few more years than men.
She gets my vote in a minute. Its not really her age per se that bothers me but her electability. In my mind superficial things matter...although I wish they didn't. Being young and appearing more vibrant can make a difference.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:12 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
OK, it's silly. Trump is oldest person ever elected a President.

I just think a younger candidate tends to do better. An athletic charismatic 48 year old might do better.
I think that's demonstrably untrue. Youthful Obama was the outlier, not the norm.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:14 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
She gets my vote in a minute. Its not really her age per se that bothers me but her electability. In my mind superficial things matter...although I wish they didn't. Being young and appearing more vibrant can make a difference.
The people elected Donald Trump. Or, Hillary for the popular vote, and she's 70.

For POTUS, the older people tend to do better as a general rule.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:19 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
A liberal takes the advantage of claiming minority status to apply for liberal jobs at liberal institutions, and the liberals there claim they gave her no consideration of her minority status?

Not much skepticism here on the liberal side of the ISF aisle today.
Why not add that she was once also the night manager of the Starbucks on the far side of the moon, helping to support her Ferrari habit, while at the same time being the true master musician/composer/engineer behind “Boston”.

It’s true.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:24 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Perhaps I'm not being clear enough here.

What exactly is the big deal in using your (actual) ancestry in your favor, when in academia?
It provokes white fragility. So, nothing legitimate.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:29 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think that's demonstrably untrue. Youthful Obama was the outlier, not the norm.
Kennedy 43, Carter 52,....how about them? Don't they count?

George W was 54.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:47 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
An athletic charismatic 48 year old might do better.

"I am Spartacus" is 49 years old. And his charisma deficit is offset by his catchy name.

Spartacus 2020: 'Make Taxes High Again'

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Old 10th September 2018, 09:01 PM   #72
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On a 23andme ad a woman was claiming tests showed she was either 29 percent or 39 percent Native American - I forget which one.

I puzzled over that one because I thought you would get increments like .5, .25, .125, .0625 ... but it would take some inbreeding and/or lots of generations to get to .29 or .39.

Though really I have not steeped myself in the science of it. I did click on the link above relating to Beringia migrations and studying genetic diversity in various sup-populations of "indigenous" Americans (as in "the Americas," not the U.S.). I have a great-grandmother who my mother says was sent to Carlisle Indian School as if it was some honor - but the GGM could not have been 100 percent native; she gave birth to a blue-eyed daughter.

That daughter, my grandmother, showed some home movies taken when she visited relatives (cousins?) in Oklahoma and those people looked like straight-up Indians to me.

But my mother's sister disputed my mom's account of the family history anyway, as if it was low-class, which might make me a victim of cultural genocide.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:15 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
On a 23andme ad a woman was claiming tests showed she was either 29 percent or 39 percent Native American - I forget which one.

I puzzled over that one because I thought you would get increments like .5, .25, .125, .0625 ... but it would take some inbreeding and/or lots of generations to get to .29 or .39.

Though really I have not steeped myself in the science of it. I did click on the link above relating to Beringia migrations and studying genetic diversity in various sup-populations of "indigenous" Americans (as in "the Americas," not the U.S.). I have a great-grandmother who my mother says was sent to Carlisle Indian School as if it was some honor - but the GGM could not have been 100 percent native; she gave birth to a blue-eyed daughter.

That daughter, my grandmother, showed some home movies taken when she visited relatives (cousins?) in Oklahoma and those people looked like straight-up Indians to me.

But my mother's sister disputed my mom's account of the family history anyway, as if it was low-class, which might make me a victim of cultural genocide.
Do you know who else went to that school? The great Jim Thorpe.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:13 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Do you know who else went to that school? The great Jim Thorpe.
I think I did know that, because I looked it up to see if there might be rosters online. Her name was Alice Reynolds. I interviewed Mom for a biography I wrote for her 80th birthday. Her memory did not turn out to be all that reliable, and I was trying hard to stitch facts together.

It's easy to see how Elizabeth Warren could have internalized family lore about Native ancestry.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:50 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I think I did know that, because I looked it up to see if there might be rosters online. Her name was Alice Reynolds. I interviewed Mom for a biography I wrote for her 80th birthday. Her memory did not turn out to be all that reliable, and I was trying hard to stitch facts together.

It's easy to see how Elizabeth Warren could have internalized family lore about Native ancestry.
I believed for a long time everything my parents told me. And my Mom and Dad told me two entirely conflicting stories on how they met.

For example, my father told me he walked 2 miles to school every day in the cold Iowa winter. Then years later my family took a trip back to see relatives and he showed us the house he grew up in and then showed us the school he went to. It was a block away! And I called him on it! Oooops! Years later I found out all kinds of things that were exaggerated and not quite right. Family folklore is often very unreliable.
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:11 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The minority culture is denied opportunity to exploit their own heritage.
No they're not. Me using something of your culture doesn't stop you from doing that also.
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:49 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What exactly is the big deal in using your (actual) ancestry in your favor, when in academia?
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It provokes white fragility. So, nothing legitimate.


...but seriously what is wrong with claiming your ethnic heritage?

My wife is only around 1½ to 2% Native American (according to 23andme, depending on statistical confidence level) but she is nevertheless a card-carrying member of her tribe. I cannot know with certainty whether this helped her win acceptance from Harvard, but it probably didn't hurt.

Those of you who've never lived in Oklahoma may well be surprised at the number of people here who claim sone tribal affiliation, either formally or else as part of longstanding family lore.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:18 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No they're not. Me using something of your culture doesn't stop you from doing that also.
I didn't say your use denied access. I'm saying they are denied access through other systematic problems that members of the dominant culture do not face while selling something developed through that culture.

But we might be talking an issue of scale. Would you be willing to consider a hypothetical of worst case cultural appropriation and if it actually is or is not something bad under those circumstances?
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:19 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's easy to see how Elizabeth Warren could have internalized family lore about Native ancestry.

Very similar to Navin Johnson (The Jerk), who grew up mistakenly believing he was an African-American. Johnson was the inventor of Opti-Grab for glasses, and became a millionaire just like Warren.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:20 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post


...but seriously what is wrong with claiming your ethnic heritage?
Because our ethnicity is one of those things that isn't supposed to matter.
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