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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial isssues

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Old 11th September 2018, 06:24 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Very similar to Navin Johnson (The Jerk), who grew up mistakenly believing he was an African-American. Johnson was the inventor of Opti-Grab for glasses, and became a millionaire just like Warren.
Hey, don't knock the opti-grab. I still have a pair. People exaggerated the cross-eyed side effect.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:25 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because our ethnicity is one of those things that isn't supposed to matter.
To whom?

https://hr.harvard.edu/diversity-inclusion
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:26 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post


...but seriously what is wrong with claiming your ethnic heritage?

My wife is only around 1˝ to 2% Native American (according to 23andme, depending on statistical confidence level) but she is nevertheless a card-carrying member of her tribe. I cannot know with certainty whether this helped her win acceptance from Harvard, but it probably didn't hurt.

Those of you who've never lived in Oklahoma may well be surprised at the number of people here who claim sone tribal affiliation, either formally or else as part of longstanding family lore.
The issue is in cases where there are a limited set of positions, using your genetic heritage as a differentiator. Should being of British Royalty help you?

Of course, then that brings up the question on whether that heritage has historically been a disadvantage, or in some cases currently is - due to human bias, if not institutional. Then the further question becomes how far back to go to correct wrongs, and also whether recruiting to increase diversity increases the educational experience of all members.

As in all things, there aren't easy answers. IMO.
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Last edited by LSSBB; 11th September 2018 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:28 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say your use denied access. I'm saying they are denied access through other systematic problems that members of the dominant culture do not face while selling something developed through that culture.
Yeah but that has nothing to do with cultural appropriation.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:32 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but that has nothing to do with cultural appropriation.
It has everything to do with cultural appropriation. That is one of the key legs of cultural appropriation.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:50 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It has everything to do with cultural appropriation. That is one of the key legs of cultural appropriation.
What aspects of Native American culture (if any) has Senator Warren been "appropriating" during her career?

(Assuming that this cultural appropriation subthread is somehow relevant to the OP topic.)
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Last edited by d4m10n; 11th September 2018 at 07:51 AM. Reason: added parenthetical
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Old 11th September 2018, 08:40 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What aspects of Native American culture (if any) has Senator Warren been "appropriating" during her career?

(Assuming that this cultural appropriation subthread is somehow relevant to the OP topic.)
Someone brought up cultural appropriation. To explain why this isn't cultural appropriation, you have to explain cultural appropriation.
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Old 11th September 2018, 08:42 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Of course, then that brings up the question on whether that heritage has historically been a disadvantage, or in some cases currently is - due to human bias, if not institutional. Then the further question becomes how far back to go to correct wrongs, and also whether recruiting to increase diversity increases the educational experience of all members.
I'm still waiting for my reparations from the Saracens for killing my ancestors at Tours...
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Old 11th September 2018, 08:52 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm still waiting for my reparations from the Saracens for killing my ancestors at Tours...
I hope you get it.
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Old 11th September 2018, 09:10 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It has everything to do with cultural appropriation. That is one of the key legs of cultural appropriation.
Make up your mind. First you said that the culture being appropriated had to have been oppressed, which I addressed, and then you said that "the minority culture is denied opportunity to exploit their own heritage", which I denied, and then you switched to "I'm saying they are denied access through other systematic problems that members of the dominant culture do not face while selling something developed through that culture", which is no longer about cultural appropriation. You don't seem to know what you're arguing.
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Old 11th September 2018, 09:11 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I hope you get it.
No you don't. It'd be a ridiculous request. I'm not those persons and neither are they.
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Old 11th September 2018, 09:25 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Very similar to Navin Johnson (The Jerk), who grew up mistakenly believing he was an African-American. Johnson was the inventor of Opti-Grab for glasses, and became a millionaire just like Warren.
Yes, yes...”very” similar.

Maybe just stick to quote dumping.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:09 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I agree with her most of the time, and think she would do a fine job as POTUS. Yet I have an even more superficial reason for thinking she would have a difficult time winning -her voice. It sounds like a caricature of a condescending grade school teacher's. I would that that were not the case- but I find the sound of her voice distracts from the content of her words.
Me too**. I also find Hillary!'s monotone off-putting.

Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows View Post
Very similar to Navin Johnson (The Jerk), who grew up mistakenly believing he was an African-American. Johnson was the inventor of Opti-Grab for glasses, and became a millionaire just like Warren.


**about the voice, not about her doing a fine job as POTUS

Last edited by carlitos; 11th September 2018 at 10:58 AM. Reason: clarification on "me too" moment.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:09 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Yes, yes...”very” similar.

Maybe just stick to quote dumping.
If he had gone with the full eggplant scene it would have worked better. Although the why does he hate these cans scene is far funnier . . .
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:16 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
If he had gone with the full eggplant scene it would have worked better. Although the why does he hate these cans scene is far funnier . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcwz8-EfFYE

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Old 11th September 2018, 10:23 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Make up your mind. First you said that the culture being appropriated had to have been oppressed, which I addressed, and then you said that "the minority culture is denied opportunity to exploit their own heritage", which I denied, and then you switched to "I'm saying they are denied access through other systematic problems that members of the dominant culture do not face while selling something developed through that culture", which is no longer about cultural appropriation. You don't seem to know what you're arguing.
It is called clarification. The oppression is the systematic denial of access. That is cultural appropriation. I tried to speed through it, but I wasn't clear. It is why the adoption of rock n roll (while record producers denied contracts to African americans) and hair braids (Jenner is a trendsetter while women are harangued for violating dress policy for decades) are appropriation.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:25 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No you don't. It'd be a ridiculous request. I'm not those persons and neither are they.
You can't tell me what my hopes are.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:26 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You're not carnival personnel!

Damn, what a great scene. Thanks for proving my point . . . whatever it was.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:36 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Then the further question becomes how far back to go to correct wrongs, and also whether recruiting to increase diversity increases the educational experience of all members.
A sticky wicket indeed.

If you go back to 1890s, at least one of my kids' ancestors was on the "Final Rolls of Citizens and Freedmen of the Five Civilized Tribes in Indian Territory." Between then and the 1990s, her descendants became more-or-less fully assimilated into mainstream white American Christian culture. At what point were various historical wrongs finally righted? Hard to say.

p.s. I'm still unclear on why people think Sen. Warren did something wrong.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:39 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is called clarification. The oppression is the systematic denial of access. That is cultural appropriation.
No, that's not what cultural appropriation is.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You can't tell me what my hopes are.
Yes I can. You know you were replying to a facetious comment. Stop it.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:40 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
p.s. I'm still unclear on why people think Sen. Warren did something wrong.
She didn't do anything wrong. A political opponent tried to claim she did and the president made up a childish nick name that stuck.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:45 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, that's not what cultural appropriation is.



Yes I can. You know you were replying to a facetious comment. Stop it.
Then we will just have to agree to disagree.


Just because you meant it flippantly doesn't mean I don't take it seriously.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:52 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then we will just have to agree to disagree.
No, we don't. You're wrong by definition. That's simply not what the term means.

Quote:
Just because you meant it flippantly doesn't mean I don't take it seriously.
Bob, I mentioned that I'm waiting for reparations from "Saracens" for an event that transpired 1100+ years ago.

Think, please.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:56 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, we don't. You're wrong by definition. That's simply not what the term means.



Bob, I mentioned that I'm waiting for reparations from "Saracens" for an event that transpired 1100+ years ago.

Think, please.
I understand you don't think you need it. I think you do.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:02 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, we don't. You're wrong by definition. That's simply not what the term means.



Bob, I mentioned that I'm waiting for reparations from "Saracens" for an event that transpired 1100+ years ago.

Think, please.
How about this definition...

Where people from a group that oppressed or oppresses another group mimics or represents cultural artifacts or manners of the oppressed group in a way that expresses or reinforces psychological elements of the racist ideology inherent in the colonialist project responsible for the oppression.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:04 AM   #106
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As long as she doesn't attempt to install slot machines in the Senate chamber she'll be OK.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:04 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I understand you don't think you need it. I think you do.
That'd mean that every human on Earth would be owed reparations by someone, just because an ancestor of theirs was wronged by someone at some time.

Yes, another case of a "principle" you want to push to its full, logical and ridiculous limit, pragmatic and reasonable considerations be damned.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:06 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That'd mean that every human on Earth would be owed reparations by someone, just because an ancestor of theirs was wronged by someone at some time.

Yes, another case of a "principle" you want to push to its full, logical and ridiculous limit, pragmatic and reasonable considerations be damned.
Correct
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:07 AM   #109
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Why stop at humans? Let's pay the remaining Bison reparations.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:07 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Why stop at humans? Let's pay the remaining Bison reparations.
I'm open to the idea
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:08 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
A sticky wicket indeed.

If you go back to 1890s, at least one of my kids' ancestors was on the "Final Rolls of Citizens and Freedmen of the Five Civilized Tribes in Indian Territory." Between then and the 1990s, her descendants became more-or-less fully assimilated into mainstream white American Christian culture. At what point were various historical wrongs finally righted? Hard to say.

p.s. I'm still unclear on why people think Sen. Warren did something wrong.
They must condemn Warren in order to support Dear Leader.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:10 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How about this definition...

Where people from a group that oppressed or oppresses another group mimics or represents cultural artifacts or manners of the oppressed group in a way that expresses or reinforces psychological elements of the racist ideology inherent in the colonialist project responsible for the oppression.
Examples?

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Correct
Yeah, you're not supposed to admit to trolling, usually.

Either that, or you've never figured out that principles are actually interconnected, and can't therefore be taken to their logical limits.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:13 AM   #113
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Who
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:25 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
As long as she doesn't attempt to install slot machines in the Senate chamber she'll be OK.
I'm going to pass this one on to the Warren 2020 campaign. Thanks.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:32 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm going to pass this one on the the Warren 2020 campaign. Thanks.
Please tell them I'd like to see Indian taco trucks on every corner.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:33 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Examples?



Yeah, you're not supposed to admit to trolling, usually.

Either that, or you've never figured out that principles are actually interconnected, and can't therefore be taken to their logical limits.
The latter
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:42 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The latter


You really should interact with some humans, then.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:49 AM   #118
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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Diversity admissions and hiring in academia is in a stupid place right now. Both Warren and Harvard participated cynically in this stupidity. In the end, their behavior didn't mean much. But it does let Warren in for some pointing and laughing. The epithet, "Fauxcahontas", is the stupid prize she won. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and leaving a paper trail, basically.

There's really no way for her to fix it, I think. Other than going back in time and not putting it on her application. The genie is already out of the bottle.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:51 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Diversity admissions and hiring in academia is in a stupid place right now. Both Warren and Harvard participated cynically in this stupidity. In the end, their behavior didn't mean much. But it does let Warren in for some pointing and laughing. The epithet, "Fauxcahontas", is the stupid prize she won. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and leaving a paper trail, basically.

There's really no way for her to fix it, I think. Other than going back in time and not putting it on her application. The genie is already out of the bottle.
Here's the thing, though: did she really think she had indian ancestry? If so, where's the stupid game?
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:55 AM   #120
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Here's the thing, though: did she really think she had indian ancestry? If so, where's the stupid game?
My question exactly.

As I've mentioned more than once, loads of phenotypically white people have some significant native ancestry, especially here in Oklahoma.
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