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Old 10th September 2018, 03:22 PM   #1
Graham2001
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Armidale School has taken 'no responsibility' for my daughter's actions, court told

Quote:
The mother of a young woman who slept with five male students has savaged the prestigious private school where she worked for putting a "junior, unqualified member of staff" in her daughter's position.

After 14½ months on remand, the 25-year-old former staff member at The Armidale School may serve no more jail time over the prolonged sexual abuse of boys as young as 15 during late 2014 and 2015.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...0Xa?li=AAgfLCP


Reading the article it appears that the mother of the accused believes her daughter was seduced by the students she slept with.

Last edited by Graham2001; 10th September 2018 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Fixed the title of the thread
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:37 PM   #2
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With respect, ma'am, your daughter is a predatory slut.
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Old 10th September 2018, 03:55 PM   #3
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Um, why would the school take any responsibility? "Don't have sex with the students" is pretty much a teaching 101 thing that even young inexperienced teachers are expected to know.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:05 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Um, why would the school take any responsibility? "Don't have sex with the students" is pretty much a teaching 101 thing that even young inexperienced teachers are expected to know.
Presumably an employer has a duty to not set their employees up for failure, by sending them into situations for which their experience and training have not yet prepared them. And that seems like a reasonable thing to me.

But for the argument to work in this case, we must assume that a twenty-something school teacher does not have the training and experience necessary to be put into a classroom without accidentally falling onto her students' dicks. Repeatedly.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:10 PM   #5
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Well, around here, above 15 would be perfectly legal. Unprofessional, sure.
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Old 10th September 2018, 04:20 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Presumably an employer has a duty to not set their employees up for failure, by sending them into situations for which their experience and training have not yet prepared them. And that seems like a reasonable thing to me.
With you so far.

Quote:
But for the argument to work in this case, we must assume that a twenty-something school teacher does not have the training and experience necessary to be put into a classroom without accidentally falling onto her students' dicks. Repeatedly.
Exactly.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:47 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well, around here, above 15 would be perfectly legal. Unprofessional, sure.
Most states in the USA have an age of consent of 16 with no requirement that the people involved be close in age. Though many people incorrectly believe it is 18.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:12 PM   #8
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Much of the coverage I've seen has focused on the leniency of the sentence. She got two years suspended. A man in the same position would have been in jail.

Quote:
"If it was a male in the same situation they would have got a much harsher sentence," [Bravehearts founder Hettie Johnston] said.

"We need to take the gender out of this and look at the behaviour."

Ms Johnston said male and female offending needed to be treated the same.

"We can't say that it's less an offence if it's a female with a boy than it is if it's a male with a girl — it defies any kind of logic," she said.

"We have to send a really clear message about adults that have sex with young people and children. It's not okay under any circumstance ever and if you do it you can expect to go to jail.

"I have no doubt that if it was a man in the same circumstances he would be in jail."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-1...quate/10225696
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:57 PM   #9
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:16 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well, around here, above 15 would be perfectly legal. Unprofessional, sure.
It's 16 in Australia except for SA and Tas, where it's 17 (dunno why), but 18 for when a person in authority (Teacher, Doctor, Religious leader, Boss, Foster Parent etc.) is one party.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
It's 16 in Australia except for SA and Tas, where it's 17 (dunno why), but 18 for when a person in authority (Teacher, Doctor, Religious leader, Boss, Foster Parent etc.) is one party.
That's actually smart.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:40 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well, around here, above 15 would be perfectly legal. Unprofessional, sure.
Doesn't matter anyway. For a teacher, students are off limits.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:48 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Um, why would the school take any responsibility? "Don't have sex with the students" is pretty much a teaching 101 thing that even young inexperienced teachers are expected to know.
Having never been a teacher or had any teacher training I've still managed to somehow glean that sleeping with your (under age) students is frowned on. It seems strange that she'd missed this while qualifying for the role.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:56 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
It's 16 in Australia except for SA and Tas, where it's 17 (dunno why), but 18 for when a person in authority (Teacher, Doctor, Religious leader, Boss, Foster Parent etc.) is one party.

Very similar rules in Denmark: 15 (and 18 for teachers etc.)
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Having never been a teacher or had any teacher training I've still managed to somehow glean that sleeping with your (under age) students is frowned on.

Having been a teacher for most of my life, I would say that sleeping with 18-year-olds + is frowned upon, too, even if it may not be strictly illegal!
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Last edited by dann; 11th September 2018 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:11 AM   #16
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Is she even a teacher? What exactly is a "junior, unqualified member of staff (...) who was 18 when she started working at The Armidale School"?

Unfortunately, when googling "upper class boys taking advantage of maids", the second link is already porn!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:16 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...0Xa?li=AAgfLCP
Quote:
The mother of a young woman who slept with five male students has savaged the prestigious private school where she worked for putting a "junior, unqualified member of staff" in her daughter's position.

After 14½ months on remand, the 25-year-old former staff member at The Armidale School may serve no more jail time over the prolonged sexual abuse of boys as young as 15 during late 2014 and 2015.
Reading the article it appears that the mother of the accused believes her daughter was seduced by the students she slept with.
I'm assuming this report is using the usual trick of highlighting the victims' ages at the time and the perpetrator's "now," so she was 21-22 at the time. This earlier report states that the students were aged between 15 and 17, although while the AoC in NSW is 16, it has the usual "position of trust/authority" exception for 16 & 17 year olds.

I can see that someone working in a education setting at such a young age, presumably having only just finished her own education, might skew their perception. She may not initially have fully appreciated that transitioning from student to staff herself meant a whole new set of rules in terms. That said, she should have got the message by the time she was 21-22.

The earlier report claims that she was blackmailed into continuing to have sex with the students, and that one of them raped her twice under such a threat. Text messages between the students given as evidence in court certainly don't paint a picture of them as innocent little flowers. It's a situation that should never have started, but it's easy to see how it then spiralled out of control.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:26 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is she even a teacher? What exactly is a "junior, unqualified member of staff (...) who was 18 when she started working at The Armidale School"?
Yeah, I wondered that. The earlier report refers to her as "previously a budding teacher." In the England & Wales a specific teaching qualification is needed to work in the state sector, either a post-graduate addition, or a degree that comes includes qualified teacher status (which Mrs Analyst has). Private schools, however, can hire "teachers" who don't have those qualifications, although they'd usually expect good degrees.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:59 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is she even a teacher? What exactly is a "junior, unqualified member of staff (...) who was 18 when she started working at The Armidale School"?
Probably a student teacher.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Unfortunately, when googling "upper class boys taking advantage of maids", the second link is already porn!
You realise that Google search results are tailored according to your search and browser history, right?
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:13 PM   #20
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24 y/o teacher's aide loses her virginity to a 15 y/o student.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-student.html
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:38 PM   #21
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The only way any of this makes any sense is if the woman was developmentally disabled.
But in that case, the criminal courts were never the right place for this.

I'm just going to assume that there are reams of facts I don't know which, if known, would cause this to be not insane.
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Unfortunately, when googling "upper class boys taking advantage of maids", the second link is already porn!
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You realise that Google search results are tailored according to your search and browser history, right?
Indeed. I don't get any porn until the tenth link. My results are mostly academic papers and such like that.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well, around here, above 15 would be perfectly legal. Unprofessional, sure.
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Most states in the USA have an age of consent of 16 with no requirement that the people involved be close in age. Though many people incorrectly believe it is 18.

In some states it is 18.

The key problem here is that she was in a position of authority, regardless of the Age of Consent. In my state, AoC is 16 with no age differential; but with the restriction that the older person cannot be in a position of authority that could be used to threaten or manipulate the younger person. A teacher would definitely qualify as such a person (and is listed as an example in the statute).
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Old 12th September 2018, 12:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You realise that Google search results are tailored according to your search and browser history, right?
That must be why I was thinking, "Only the second link?"

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Old 12th September 2018, 12:57 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I'm assuming this report is using the usual trick of highlighting the victims' ages at the time and the perpetrator's "now," so she was 21-22 at the time. This earlier report states that the students were aged between 15 and 17, although while the AoC in NSW is 16, it has the usual "position of trust/authority" exception for 16 & 17 year olds.

I can see that someone working in a education setting at such a young age, presumably having only just finished her own education, might skew their perception. She may not initially have fully appreciated that transitioning from student to staff herself meant a whole new set of rules in terms. That said, she should have got the message by the time she was 21-22.

The earlier report claims that she was blackmailed into continuing to have sex with the students, and that one of them raped her twice under such a threat. Text messages between the students given as evidence in court certainly don't paint a picture of them as innocent little flowers. It's a situation that should never have started, but it's easy to see how it then spiralled out of control.
I take it you glossed over the texts from her
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:02 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I take it you glossed over the texts from her
Which ones from explain the students behaving like self evident little *****? She was obviously weak/immature/stupid/deluded/whatever (and still merits punishment for it), but characterising her as an "evil predator" is ridiculous.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:35 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Which ones from explain the students behaving like self evident little *****? She was obviously weak/immature/stupid/deluded/whatever (and still merits punishment for it), but characterising her as an "evil predator" is ridiculous.
Whatever she is, they show she wasn't the innocent victim you seem to be trying to paint her as.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:40 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Whatever she is, they show she wasn't the innocent victim you seem to be trying to paint her as.
She can be both victim and perpetrator. It seem undeniable that she was manipulated and used by some of the students. That does get her off the hook of screwing kids she wasn't supposed to screw, but it may explain in part how she ended up screwing, a) so many of them, and b) repeatedly.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:46 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
She can be both victim and perpetrator. It seem undeniable that she was manipulated and used by some of the students. That does get her off the hook of screwing kids she wasn't supposed to screw, but it may explain in part how she ended up screwing, a) so many of them, and b) repeatedly.
I think you meant "doesn't" not "does"?
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
She can be both victim and perpetrator. It seem undeniable that she was manipulated and used by some of the students. That does get her off the hook of screwing kids she wasn't supposed to screw, but it may explain in part how she ended up screwing, a) so many of them, and b) repeatedly.
Or it could be after she'd predated a few of them some of the kids realised that they could exploit her and turned the tables on her.
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Old 12th September 2018, 03:52 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
She can be both victim and perpetrator. It seem undeniable that she was manipulated and used by some of the students. That does get her off the hook of screwing kids she wasn't supposed to screw, but it may explain in part how she ended up screwing, a) so many of them, and b) repeatedly.
I agree she can if it got out of her control

If that was the case it was only because she chose not to notify people.

She is the one that was allocated authority
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:16 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...0Xa?li=AAgfLCP


Reading the article it appears that the mother of the accused believes her daughter was seduced by the students she slept with.
Without knowing any specifics about the case in question it seems perfectly plausible that she was seduced considering that the youngest victim was "just" 15 years.

Then again because of how these kind of laws are written and interpreted: even if they were seduced by someone that was underage that would not be valid excuse. An adult, or even a minor that's above the age consent, is expected to resist and refuse any sexual interaction with anyone that's underage even if they literally invite them to have sex. Of course if the "victim" lies about their age or even outright forces the "criminal" into having sex then they are presumably without guilt.

I also love how newspeak makes figuring out the facts around the case so extremely difficult. When they say "prolonged sexual abuse" do they actually mean that she sexually abused them or do they simply mean that she was in a long term sexual relationship with underage students? Or even students that are above the age of consent?
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:22 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Without knowing any specifics
You could try looking at the specifics.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:19 AM   #34
luchog
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or it could be after she'd predated a few of them some of the kids realised that they could exploit her and turned the tables on her.

This makes more sense to me. People learn from their experiences, and she appears to be a predator in this case, but a fairly inept one, who didn't understand how to control her victims effectively. She used them, and they learned from that and turned around and used her in return.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I also love how newspeak makes figuring out the facts around the case so extremely difficult. When they say "prolonged sexual abuse" do they actually mean that she sexually abused them or do they simply mean that she was in a long term sexual relationship with underage students? Or even students that are above the age of consent?

None of which is particularly relevant, since the key issue here is that she exploited a position of authority to take advantage of her students. That should absolutely override any quibbling about age of consent or "true" motives.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:47 AM   #35
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Is "maid" still an acceptable term? Maybe housekeeper?

Anyway, I had originally assumed she was a teacher.

If she was a maid, then my assessment changes a lot, and I'm willing to consider the possibility that the mother has a point.

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Old 12th September 2018, 09:17 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
None of which is particularly relevant, since the key issue here is that she exploited a position of authority to take advantage of her students.
Neither that MSN article nor the article it linked to says she took advantage of anyone nor does it describe what kind of behavior would constitute subjecting someone to "prolonged sexual abuse".

I hardly think that having sex with your students and being in a sexual relationship with them would inherently and necessarily constitutes sexual abuse or exploitation, and i should note that Swedish law acknowledges this.

In the end that's why i find the articles politically correct newspeak objectionable: It's one thing to accuse people of having sex with someone that's underage or a dependent person. Accusing someone of perpetrating "prolonged sexual abuse" is a far more serious accusation. Or at least it should be.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:24 AM   #37
Darat
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Neither that MSN article nor the article it linked to says she took advantage of anyone nor does it describe what kind of behavior would constitute subjecting someone to "prolonged sexual abuse".

I hardly think that having sex with your students and being in a sexual relationship with them would inherently and necessarily constitutes sexual abuse or exploitation, and i should note that Swedish law acknowledges this.

In the end that's why i find the articles politically correct newspeak objectionable: It's one thing to accuse people of having sex with someone that's underage or a dependent person. Accusing someone of perpetrating "prolonged sexual abuse" is a far more serious accusation. Or at least it should be.
If they are under the age of consent then it does.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:34 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think you meant "doesn't" not "does"?
Yes, you're right.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or it could be after she'd predated a few of them some of the kids realised that they could exploit her and turned the tables on her.
Something along those lines. Five victims are reports, aged 15-17. We don't know if there were any 18 year olds involved that wouldn't have been prosecutable, and hence don't get a mention. We also don't know the age breakdown of the five beyond at least one of them being 15. I would think that it would be a lot more damning if more than one of them was 15, than if it was just the one and the others were 16 or 17. I think there is an inherent problem with having 16-17/position of trust exceptions when the normal AoC is 16. Obviously where they are the law, they should be complied with, but you can see how someone - especially someone as young as she was - might see it as being "not so serious."

Last edited by Information Analyst; 12th September 2018 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:37 AM   #39
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
describe what kind of behavior would constitute subjecting someone to "prolonged sexual abuse".
Prolonged sexual abuse could mean wearing a sexy negligee and flogging your partner with a cat-o-nine-tails for a long time.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:51 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I agree she can if it got out of her control

If that was the case it was only because she chose not to notify people.

She is the one that was allocated authority
Sure. Whatever the first liaison was, it should never have happened, and she was stupid to think that she could control the situation, even if blackmailed later.
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