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Old 12th September 2018, 10:46 AM   #41
luchog
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I hardly think that having sex with your students and being in a sexual relationship with them would inherently and necessarily constitutes sexual abuse or exploitation, and i should note that Swedish law acknowledges this.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If they are under the age of consent then it does.

And if you are abusing a position of power, then it certainly does constitute exploitation, regardless of the age of the student. A teacher has power over students' lives that non-teachers do not, and can use this power to threaten or manipulate students into sexual relationships that they may not be willing to engage in otherwise, even for students which are over the age of consent or age of majority. That is why student-teacher romantic/sexual relationships are considered at best highly unethical, and can be described as abusive without any notable stretching of the expectations for such a definition.


If Swedish law does not acknowledge this clear power dynamic problem in student-teacher relationships, then it is definitely backward compared to most other western nations.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:49 AM   #42
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At least in the US, If a High School Teacher has an affair with a student,regardless of the age of the student. it, if proven, is pretty much means the teacher is fired and, if the age of the student is under 16, possible legal problems to follow.

It's considered a basic betrayal of a position of trust.
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Old 12th September 2018, 11:13 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
At least in the US, If a High School Teacher has an affair with a student,regardless of the age of the student. it, if proven, is pretty much means the teacher is fired and, if the age of the student is under 16, possible legal problems to follow.

It's considered a basic betrayal of a position of trust.

Are we sure this person was in a position of authority? Have I missed something with her position/role confirmed?
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Old 12th September 2018, 11:20 AM   #44
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Speculation:
A naive young woman with little life experience takes on a junior housekeeping job at a private school where the privileged lads make a pastime of having a go at the pretty maids. School discipline is negligent on this point, and the poor woman is given neither the supervision nor the training to cope with the situation. Between one thing and another, she slides into an incident pit. The people who had the responsibility to help her avoid it, and pull her out before she fell too far in, were remiss in their duty. Her mother has a valid complaint.
To me, this is a very different scenario than an accredited teacher who should arrive at the school already trained and experienced to do the job.

Though, even there, the school may have some responsibility to hire well, and supervise well, which they have abdicated in this case.

Last edited by theprestige; 12th September 2018 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 12th September 2018, 11:38 AM   #45
luchog
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are we sure this person was in a position of authority? Have I missed something with her position/role confirmed?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To me, this is a very different scenario than an accredited teacher who should arrive at the school already trained and experienced to do the job.

Though, even there, the school may have some responsibility to hire well, and supervise well, which they have abdicated in this case.

Ignoring the speculation, as it's not really relevant.

From the OP link, the charges filed indicate that she was in some sort of position of authority that she abused.

Quote:
The woman pleaded guilty in April to six counts of sexual intercourse with a person under her care and three counts of aggravated sexual intercourse.

"Under her care" would mean that she had some duty of care, and therefore some position of authority which could be abused. Not something that typically applies to janitors or lunchroom staff. That would need to be a teacher, administrator, or medical staff.
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Last edited by luchog; 12th September 2018 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 12th September 2018, 11:43 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Not something that typically applies to janitors or lunchroom staff. That would need to be a teacher, administrator, or medical staff.
It's not clear to me that this is the case. It may be that in law, all staff are in a position of care over all students, even though some staff are given no authority over the students, nor given duties that put them over the students. It may even be that since housekeepers have a duty of care in the law, the school has a responsibility to properly train and supervise them as caregivers, which they abdicated.
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Old 12th September 2018, 11:53 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post

From the OP link, the charges filed indicate that she was in some sort of position of authority that she abused.


"Under her care" would mean that she had some duty of care, and therefore some position of authority which could be abused. Not something that typically applies to janitors or lunchroom staff. That would need to be a teacher, administrator, or medical staff.

I'm not entirely sure I trust the reporting, but if the reporting is accurate, then yes.

I'm not sure we've actually seen confirmation of her position and journalists do sometimes tend to add fluff that's not accurate just to pad out a piece.
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Old 12th September 2018, 12:09 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Doesn't matter anyway. For a teacher, students are off limits.
It probably matters for legal reasons, I don't think its illegal in most of the US if the students are above the age of consent for a teacher to screw them. Perhaps it should be but she should definitely be fired.

Also, the mom is engaged in some serious motivated reasoning. I doubt she would have said something similar if her daughter had slept with a teacher 10 years ago.

I can see it now, part of teacher licensing, pictures of potential students with true for false questions, "Can you have sex with this child if they are a student?"
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And if you are abusing a position of power, then it certainly does constitute exploitation, regardless of the age of the student. A teacher has power over students' lives that non-teachers do not, and can use this power to threaten or manipulate students into sexual relationships that they may not be willing to engage in otherwise, even for students which are over the age of consent or age of majority. That is why student-teacher romantic/sexual relationships are considered at best highly unethical, and can be described as abusive without any notable stretching of the expectations for such a definition.
I'd respectfully disagree. If even adults are unable to have sex with their teacher, lecturer or perhaps anyone at all that's in a position of authority of them without it constituting "sexual exploitation" then clearly not only should their sexual autonomy be withdrawn but they should be legally deemed minors as well.

Quote:
If Swedish law does not acknowledge this clear power dynamic problem in student-teacher relationships, then it is definitely backward compared to most other western nations.
There's a general criminal offense that penalizes anyone "who cause a person to perform or endure a sexual act, by seriously abusing that said person is in a position of dependence to the perpetrator, is convicted of sexual exploitation of dependent persons for imprisonment for a maximum period of two years."

There is no special offense for teachers or priests for that matter. Not even for Catholic ones. Merely having sex with a ones students or parishioners wouldn't qualify as "seriously abusing that said person is in a position of dependence", they'd at the very least have to exert some pressure for it qualify. That amount of pressure is proportional to the amount of control and authority that said position affords them over others. I've read about at least one case where a female teacher was convicted of this offense because the victim "felt pressured into doing it." I'd say that puts a quite low bar for the amount of evidence required to convict someone for having sex with their student without completely and absolutely making it a crime.

I'm perfectly okay with that law as it stands now, especially because it prevented a teacher from being convicted of a crime for having sex with a teenage boy who was his student. It wasn't the "victim" that made a complaint or anything rather it was his homophobic and bigoted parents. The judges acquitted him because "it wasn't a crime irrespective of how potentially unpopular or controversial" such a relationship was because there was no evidence at all to indicate any pressure. Of course he lost his job but that's besides the point.
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Last edited by Arcade22; 12th September 2018 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 13th September 2018, 08:08 AM   #50
luchog
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'd respectfully disagree. If even adults are unable to have sex with their teacher, lecturer or perhaps anyone at all that's in a position of authority of them without it constituting "sexual exploitation" then clearly not only should their sexual autonomy be withdrawn but they should be legally deemed minors as well.
Wait, what? That is patently ridiculous, and not even remotely what we're talking about. Do you not believe that an adult can be coerced into sex by threats of harm other than physical harm? Your comment here just completely invalidated all sexual harassment and rape by coercion laws.

In any case, I think you need to work on your English skills, because this paragraph is contradicted by the next one.


Quote:
There's a general criminal offense that penalizes anyone "who cause a person to perform or endure a sexual act, by seriously abusing that said person is in a position of dependence to the perpetrator, is convicted of sexual exploitation of dependent persons for imprisonment for a maximum period of two years."

This is precisely what I'm talking about, a position of authority is being abused to coerce someone into sex. Looks like Swedish law recognizes the problem here even if you don't.

Quote:
There is no special offense for teachers or priests for that matter. Not even for Catholic ones.

You really don't seem to understand this topec, since no one said anything about special laws exclusive to teachers or priests.
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Old 13th September 2018, 08:20 AM   #51
3point14
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As far as I can work out, Swedish law does not consider a relationship between a teacher and a student of legal age to be de facto an offence. The offence would need to be shown to be coercive.

I think other legal systems would consider the relationship to be coercive simply because of the nature of the relationship between student and teacher.

Is that right?
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Old 13th September 2018, 01:33 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
As far as I can work out, Swedish law does not consider a relationship between a teacher and a student of legal age to be de facto an offence. The offence would need to be shown to be coercive.

I think other legal systems would consider the relationship to be coercive simply because of the nature of the relationship between student and teacher.

Is that right?
In the UK it is now an "abuse of trust" if the pupil/student is over 16 but under 18, once over 18 it is no longer a criminal matter.
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Old 13th September 2018, 03:46 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Much of the coverage I've seen has focused on the leniency of the sentence. She got two years suspended. A man in the same position would have been in jail.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-1...quate/10225696

It's not just in this case I found an editorial from a US newspaper (The New Hampshire Union Leader.) on a case involving a female guidance councilor who abused the trust of one of her charges (The child was a 14 yr old male). It seems that a lot of people came out in her support and the editor asks if the same would have happened if the genders had been reversed.


Quote:
If a male guidance counselor in his 30s had sexually assaulted a 14-year-old student, would his former colleagues beg the court to show leniency?

We doubt it, but given the wall of silence protecting sexual predators at other New Hampshire schools, anything is possible.

Kristie Torbick pleaded guilty to four counts of felonious sexual assault against an Exeter High School freshman. Prosecutors sought a five- to 10-year sentence. Rockingham County Superior Court Judge Andrew Schulman gave her half that.

http://www.unionleader.com/editorial...dator-07122018
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