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Tags atheism , China incidents , China issues , christian persecution , gosateizm

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Old 10th September 2018, 05:03 PM   #1
The Big Dog
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Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...d79_story.html

Quote:
BEIJING — China’s government is ratcheting up a crackdown on Christian congregations in Beijing and several provinces, destroying crosses, burning bibles, shutting churches and ordering followers to sign papers renouncing their faith, according to pastors and a group that monitors religion in China.

The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.
Appalling.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:23 PM   #2
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Yeah, it is. But the idea that you think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:40 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.
This action has absolutely nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with state-sponsored suppression of "undesirable" ideas.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:50 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, it is. But the idea that you think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling.
Interesting. Thinking "that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China" is MORE appalling than

Quote:
Fu also provided video footage of what appeared to be piles of burning bibles and forms stating that the signatories had renounced their Christian faith. He said that marked the first time since Mao’s radical 1966-1976 Cultural Revolution that Christians had been compelled to make such declarations, under pain of expulsion from school and the loss of welfare benefits.
and

Quote:
In the most extreme example, an estimated 1 million Uighurs and other members of Muslim minority groups in the country’s northwest have been arbitrarily detained in indoctrination camps where they are forced to denounce Islam and profess loyalty to the Communist Party.
Well, I would say that perhaps the Atheists are the real victims here.... but we all know that this activity is part and parcel of the Atheist Totalitarian Government of Chine. Further, we know that this is a characteristic of Atheist totalitarian governments like China and USSR, in fact one would say it is one of their defining features.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:54 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
This action has absolutely nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with state-sponsored suppression of "undesirable" ideas.
Demanding that people sign papers and renounce their faith has nothing to do with Atheism?

Huh.
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Old 10th September 2018, 05:56 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, I would say that perhaps the Atheists are the real victims here.... but we all know that this activity is part and parcel of the Atheist Totalitarian Government of Chine. Further, we know that this is a characteristic of Atheist totalitarian governments like China and USSR, in fact one would say it is one of their defining features.
Careful, your bias is showing. We've gone over this before. First, totalitarian governments crack down on everything, not just religion, and second, they do it for political reasons and not in the name of atheism.

Why am I even bothering to engage here? I know exactly how it's going to turn out.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:01 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Careful, your bias is showing. We've gone over this before. First, totalitarian governments crack down on everything, not just religion, and second, they do it for political reasons and not in the name of atheism.

Why am I even bothering to engage here? I know exactly how it's going to turn out.
My bias? I am simply quoting the article and your post where you said that Thinking "that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China" is MORE appalling than destroying the Churches and interning a million people.

And doing it in the name of Atheism.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:01 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...d79_story.html



Appalling.
Projecting again?
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:06 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Projecting again?
anything about the article I linked or the latest pogrom by the Chinese authorities forcing the faithful to renounce their faith and become atheists?

No? Pity.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:08 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...d79_story.html



Appalling.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, it is. But the idea that you think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling.

Right on the mark arth. Boy that article doesn't even have the word "atheist" in it, but to The Big Dog with his blinkered vision it is atheism front and centre.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Right on the mark arth. Boy that article doesn't even have the word "atheist" in it, but to The Big Dog with his blinkered vision it is atheism front and centre.
From the linked article

"The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives."

But I have "blinkered vision."

Interesting
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:22 PM   #12
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I'm not surprised that Trump's friend President Xi Jinping is doing all this. Maybe he's doing this because Christians rape children.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:28 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
From the linked article

"The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives."

But I have "blinkered vision."

Interesting
You do. You can't tell the difference between a totalitarian government with an official position of atheism cracking down on dissention for political reasons and them doing it because atheism demands it.

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Old 10th September 2018, 06:29 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Demanding that people sign papers and renounce their faith has nothing to do with Atheism?

Huh.
Show me where the Chinese govmt says that a lack of belief in god requires burning crosses and destroying bibles. Or destroying crosses and burning bibles. Or vice-versa.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:32 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'm not surprised that Trump's friend President Xi Jinping is doing all this. Maybe he's doing this because Christians rape children.
You think that they are putting a million Muslims in re-education camps because of that?

Actually that speculation is of course frivolous, because the article I posted makes clear it is part and parcel with the officially atheist policy.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:34 PM   #16
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Again, this will be ignored, but anyway...

Your own quote says:
Quote:
The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion...
Can you explain what that quoted word means? Because that's the driving force, not atheism.

ETA: Stuff it, here you are: https://www.google.com/search?q=sini...ient=firefox-b
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
Show me where the Chinese govmt says that a lack of belief in god requires burning crosses and destroying bibles. Or destroying crosses and burning bibles. Or vice-versa.
I did, it is in the linked article. Not only that it requires the faithful to renounce their religion and they have interned a million Muslims.

Is the link not working?
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:37 PM   #18
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Look, TBD, we get it. We understand that you view the existence of atheism as a personal attack on you and your worldview, and on the God you say you worship and revere. It's not. The cited incidents are an attack on innocent people by a totalitarian government, not an attack on Christians by atheists.

Are you worried that we scary atheists are going to completely wipe out your church and kill your god? Not going to happen. You can't claim to be a persecuted minority when you're in a majority across the world. We should be more worried about you. After all, there are many, many more documented examples of religious people attacking and forcefully converting people to their religion than there are of atheists forcibly deconverting the religious.

We should be more scared of you than you are of us.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:38 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Again, this will be ignored, but anyway...

Your own quote says:Can you explain what that quoted word means? Because that's the driving force, not atheism.

ETA: Stuff it, here you are: https://www.google.com/search?q=sini...ient=firefox-b
Yes, I am well aware of what it means. It would appear that a driving force of the officially atheist state is to force people to become atheists.

As noted above, it is a defining characteristic of such atheists states. Atheist state and pogroms go hand in hand, take a look at the USSR and gozathiesm.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:45 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Look, TBD, we get it. We understand that you view the existence of atheism as a personal attack on you and your worldview, and on the God you say you worship and revere. It's not. The cited incidents are an attack on innocent people by a totalitarian government, not an attack on Christians by atheists.

Are you worried that we scary atheists are going to completely wipe out your church and kill your god? Not going to happen. You can't claim to be a persecuted minority when you're in a majority across the world. We should be more worried about you. After all, there are many, many more documented examples of religious people attacking and forcefully converting people to their religion than there are of atheists forcibly deconverting the religious.

We should be more scared of you than you are of us.
Oh it’s an attack by atheists on not just Christians, but Muslims too. And while I appreciate a good whataboutism, since the beginning of the 20th century the overwhelming number of pogroms have been by atheist states like China and the USSR. Indeed some would say that Atheists have industrialized it.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:48 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yes, I am well aware of what it means. It would appear that a driving force of the officially atheist state is to force people to become atheists.
No, that's precisely NOT what they said. They were very clear in their goal: Sinicization - forcing religions to be CHINESE, i.e. follow the Communist Party rules. Nowhere did they state that it was the Atheist Party of China. It's the Communist Party of China.

Quote:
As noted above, it is a defining characteristic of such atheists states. Atheist state and pogroms go hand in hand, take a look at the USSR and gozathiesm.
Oh you like to rewrite history? Like to be deliberately selective? The Orthodox Church thrived in the USSR because it played along with the ruling hierarchy, whether that was very Christian Tsars or the mildly atheist Kommissars. In turn, the ruling parties used the church to subdue the masses. Atheism?? Like Donny's tax-breaks and jobs-for-Americans, great propaganda, not reality.

Also, for the majority of the existence of the USSR it was ruled not by atheists but by the god-in-human-form-worshippers of Stalin. Heaven help you if Stalin turned his face from you. Not only did you disappear, you got airbrushed out of photos like Donny's inauguration crowd gaps. It was a personality cult...just like you see today with Trumpites. They don't worship the god you believe in; they worship Trump, and he worships himself.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:53 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
No, that's precisely NOT what they said. They were very clear in their goal: Sinicization - forcing religions to be CHINESE, i.e. follow the Communist Party rules. Nowhere did they state that it was the Atheist Party of China. It's the Communist Party of China.

Oh you like to rewrite history? Like to be deliberately selective? The Orthodox Church thrived in the USSR because it played along with the ruling hierarchy, whether that was very Christian Tsars or the mildly atheist Kommissars. In turn, the ruling parties used the church to subdue the masses. Atheism?? Like Donny's tax-breaks and jobs-for-Americans, great propaganda, not reality.

Also, for the majority of the existence of the USSR it was ruled not by atheists but by the god-in-human-form-worshippers of Stalin. Heaven help you if Stalin turned his face from you. Not only did you disappear, you got airbrushed out of photos like Donny's inauguration crowd gaps. It was a personality cult...just like you see today with Trumpites. They don't worship the god you believe in; they worship Trump, and he worships himself.
Wait, wait, wait... you think that Sinicization means follow the communist party lead? That is absurd.

The Orthodox religion “thrived” in between episodes of mass murder?

Little background for you

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pers...e_Soviet_Union
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.
Excellent, I'd vote for that.

I'd even be advocating christian-conversion camps and therapy. Nobody's ever tried anything like that, so who know - it might even work. If people are stupid enough to believe in invisible fairies, they'll believe anything.

Given christians' 2000-year history of causing violence against non-christians, the Chinese are behaving quite sensibly. Cut the problem off at the root.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Appalling.
Damn right it is. What a waste - they could be selling them.
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Old 10th September 2018, 06:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wait, wait, wait... you think that Sinicization means follow the communist party lead? That is absurd.
Uh...it's what it means. Cultural imperialism. Like America exports its culture globally.

Quote:
The Orthodox religion “thrived” in between episodes of mass murder?

Little background for you

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pers...e_Soviet_Union
More for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...e_Soviet_Union

Quote:
The Nazi attack on the Soviet Union in 1941 induced Stalin to enlist the Russian Orthodox Church as an ally to arouse Russian patriotism against foreign aggression. Russian Orthodox religious life experienced a revival: thousands of churches were reopened; there were 22,000 by the time Nikita Khrushchev came to power. The regime permitted religious publications, and church membership grew.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:02 PM   #25
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Dup.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:06 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Excellent, I'd vote for that.

I'd even be advocating christian-conversion camps and therapy. Nobody's ever tried anything like that, so who know - it might even work. If people are stupid enough to believe in invisible fairies, they'll believe anything.

Given christians' 2000-year history of causing violence against non-christians, the Chinese are behaving quite sensibly. Cut the problem off at the root.



Damn right it is. What a waste - they could be selling them.
Bingo, that is the type of defense of this atheist policy that I expected from the atheists!
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Bingo, that is the type of defense of this atheist policy that I expected from the atheists!
I can see now you are just taking the piss and not having a real discussion. Have fun with that.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:11 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Uh...it's what it means. Cultural imperialism. Like America exports its culture globally.

More for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...e_Soviet_Union
But I was told it “thrived”. Why would they have to reopen churches if they were thriving? Hmm, that is a puzzler.

I guess they really “thrived” under Nikita too huh.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR...ign_(1958–1964)

No, they were busy trying to achieve an atheist state.

Just like China is doing now with their latest atheist crackdown.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wait, wait, wait... you think that Sinicization means follow the communist party lead? That is absurd.
Quote:
Sinicization, sinicisation, sinofication, or sinification is a process whereby non-Chinese societies come under the influence of Chinese culture, particularly Han Chinese culture and societal norms. Areas of influence include diet, writing, industry, education, language, law, lifestyle, politics, philosophy, religion, science and technology, culture, and value systems. More broadly, "Sinicization" may refer to policies of acculturation, assimilation, or cultural imperialism imposed by China onto neighboring East Asian countries. Evidence of this can be seen in the value systems, cuisine, architectural style, and lexicons. This is reflected in the histories of Japan, Korea and Vietnam for example, in the adoption of the Chinese writing system as the script of the Han Chinese has long been a unifying feature in the Sinosphere as the vehicle for exporting Chinese culture to these Asian countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization

There's more on that page. Here's a fun thing to try: Go to that link, press Ctrl-F and type "atheism". See how many times that word appears on the page that defines sinicization.

Okay, I'll tell you. It's zero. The word "atheism" appears zero times on the Wikipedia page defining sinicization.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:14 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
But I was told it “thrived”. Why would they have to reopen churches if they were thriving? Hmm, that is a puzzler.

I guess they really “thrived” under Nikita too huh.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR...958–1964)

No, they were busy trying to achieve an atheist state.

Just like China is doing now with their latest atheist crackdown.
As I said above, you are just taking the piss now. Like all conspiracy nutcases, you have your cause set in concrete. Now you are desperately searching for evidence. Anything will do. And Muslims were dancing after 9/11 too.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:15 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I can see now you are just taking the piss and not having a real discussion. Have fun with that.
Not sure what gave you that idea, in fact he and I seem to be the only ones talking about the article and the crack down. I think it is appalling, he thinks that it is fanstatic, in fact it does not go far enough in his view.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:21 PM   #32
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State terrorism by the authoritarian Chinese.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:28 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization

There's more on that page. Here's a fun thing to try: Go to that link, press Ctrl-F and type "atheism". See how many times that word appears on the page that defines sinicization.

Okay, I'll tell you. It's zero. The word "atheism" appears zero times on the Wikipedia page defining sinicization.
Cool! I notice that other fella said it didn’t appear in the article, but while I enjoy reading articles, I direct your attention to the linked article in the op. Let’s take a gander.

“The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.”

There is that officially atheist word we were searching for!
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:32 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
As I said above, you are just taking the piss now. Like all conspiracy nutcases, you have your cause set in concrete. Now you are desperately searching for evidence. Anything will do. And Muslims were dancing after 9/11 too.
You think that the article about the USSR’s crackdown on religion after Stalin as reflected in the article I linked and which completely rebutted your false claims is a conspiracy theory?

Say, do us a favor and walk us through that will you?
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:37 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.
How did you determine that the people doing this are atheists? I doubt you even know any of them.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cool! I notice that other fella said it didn’t appear in the article, but while I enjoy reading articles, I direct your attention to the linked article in the op. Let’s take a gander.

“The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.”

There is that officially atheist word we were searching for!
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
How did you determine that the people doing this are atheists? I doubt you even know any of them.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:57 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cool! I notice that other fella said it didn’t appear in the article, but while I enjoy reading articles, I direct your attention to the linked article in the op. Let’s take a gander.

“The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.”

There is that officially atheist word we were searching for!
Right. The campaign to sinicize religion. To make religion conform to Chinese norms. Which, in an authoritarian state means conforming to the wishes of the government. They're not cracking down because the churches are religious, they're cracking down because the churches are dissidents. And they're doing that not because they are atheist, they are doing that because that's what totalitarian governments do - they eliminate dissent.

Here it is again, from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Areas of influence include diet, writing, industry, education, language, law, lifestyle, politics, philosophy, religion, science and technology, culture, and value systems.
Notice that religion is in the mix, alongside education, law, politics, philosophy and culture and others.

Like the Soviets, the goal of China is not to destroy religion, it is to assimilate it and use it as a tool of the state.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:17 PM   #38
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TBD is doing a bit of trolling here, but there is a point to be made. In fact, there are a couple of points. I can think of two, one of which I'm sure he will agree with, and the other, possibly, but perhaps with not so much enthusiasm.


First, there are a lot of people on this board who act like the United States is a Christian theocracy where non-Christians, especially atheists, are a persecuted minority. That's bunk. The government in China is showing what real persecution looks like, and it doesn't look like anything that's happening here in the US. (That's the one I'm sure TBD agrees with, although I will let him correct me if I'm wrong.)

The second is that we have seen throughout history that any time the government gets to dictate an official policy about religious practice, things really suck for anyone who doesn't go along with the official policy. This is true whether, as in most of history, the official policy specifies a particular style of worshipping a specific god or, as in the modern era, where the official policy is to recognize no god at all and forbid or restrict worship of one, or more, or all, sorts of gods. It took until the 20th century to have officially atheist, as opposed to merely secular, governments, and everyplace where they have existed, things have sucked. The lesson ought to be to demand religious freedom everywhere, and not encroach on that freedom if it can at all be avoided. Unfortunately, some people seem to think that since atheism isn't a religion, somehow policies that promote atheism aren't restricting religious freedom.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:25 PM   #39
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All this is true, but I really do think that TBD believes that religion is under attack by organised atheism, and that the Stalinist government of the USSR and today's Chinese government are examples of this. I think he'd be pretty hard-pressed to provide very many additional examples - the government of Pol Pot is the only one that comes immediately to my mind - but that has never stopped him before.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:35 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
This action has absolutely nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with state-sponsored suppression of "undesirable" ideas.
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