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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 11th February 2020, 04:20 AM   #1241
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All that is saying is 'although they were present at the murder and Knox washed off blood from the victim as well as Knox accusing Lumumba to cover up for Guede' it doesn't prove they did it (translated: we have received a backhander from Donald Trump and the State Department to lose the case on the grounds that Donny is a kraut just like Knox and you have the Black guy so just do it. 'America First, America First').

Despite the blatant abuse of office and backchanneling in the affairs of another country by Trump, you'll note Marasca-Bruno do not absolve the pair in any shape or form except to annul their convictions.


Yeah..... you apparently don't understand the meaning of conditional clauses.

(Hint: "even if it is hypothesised that" has a very different meaning from "although")

Oh and you also appear to be (blissfully?) unaware that the ONLY remit of the Marasca SC panel was to adjudicate whether Knox and Sollecito should be found guilty or not guilty of the crimes with which they were charged. Once again, please do some basic research into the function and remit of appeal courts (they have the same remit in England&Wales and Italy, if that helps - though I've no idea what they do in Finland.....).

And what was that bizarre (and wholly irrelevant) stuff about Trump suuposed to mean?
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Old 11th February 2020, 04:21 AM   #1242
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams
The court, in a document, says "even if*it is*hypothesized*that they were present in the house....." "it excludes their material participation in the murder."
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All that is saying is 'although they were present at the murder and Knox washed off blood from the victim as well as Knox accusing Lumumba to cover up for Guede' it doesn't prove they did it (translated: we have received a backhander from Donald Trump and the State Department to lose the case on the grounds that Donny is a kraut just like Knox and you have the Black guy so just do it. 'America First, America First').
What's so great about your reply, is how blatantly it shows the way that meaning is skewed to hold a guilter-nutter opinion. You are thanked for being so willing to do that so overtly.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Despite the blatant abuse of office and backchanneling in the affairs of another country by Trump, you'll note Marasca-Bruno do not absolve the pair in any shape or form except to annul their convictions.
Marasca-Bruno annulled their convictions, and said there was no reliable evidence that even suggested they'd been involved. It's all in Section 9.4 of the M/B report as cited a few posts upthread.

Also..... you seem not to know that Marasca-Bruno exonerated the pair in March 2015, and that Trump became president in January 2017. Perhaps this explains why your quip is complete rubbish.
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Old 11th February 2020, 04:22 AM   #1243
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The tweet has been supplied on this very forum before so do pay attention.

So you should have little trouble locating it to support your claim, no?
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Old 11th February 2020, 04:40 AM   #1244
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And what was that bizarre (and wholly irrelevant) stuff about Trump suuposed to mean?
It means that time-traveling members of the Trump administration plotted with Masons, the Mafia, and big American media to buy off the Italian courts at the highest level.

Hey Vixen: have I got this right? Is this the conspiracy guilter-nutters believe in?
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Old 11th February 2020, 04:53 AM   #1245
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The tweet has been supplied on this very forum before so do pay attention.
Apologies to Vixen.

In my post upthread where Vixen's method of claiming that a citation had been "hastily" deleted, but that a "sharp-eyed" guilter nutter had luckily saved it......

I alleged that Vixen's whole post had been a nothing-burger. Why? Well Vixen hid the fact she couldn't provide the citation by making ad hominems against the man she had made her allegations about.... while slipping in that it is the guilter-nutters who are the sharp-eyed ones.

What made her post a nothing-burger was that at its conclusion we still have not seen the cite.

Well, the nothing-burger continues. What is it now? It's the time worn song of the "the dog ate my homework" bunch: it's already been posted, and if you missed it, that's not my fault.

At the end of this further post, the nothing-burger is still a nothing-burger.

(Where does my little conspiratorial mind go now? It congers up images of other guilter-nutters behind the scenes who're faking a tweet as we speak..... but that's just me.)
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Old 11th February 2020, 09:53 AM   #1246
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I like it.
Glad you liked it. But that doesn't answer the question.

I'm unfamiliar with flippancy being a logical fallacy. How would you categorize it and why?

I spent a full semester studying syllogisms and critical thinking. I wish everyone did. Being flippant may be a non-sequitor but I don't see how it qualifies as being a fallacy. Perhaps you can explain it to us poorly educated peasants?
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:13 AM   #1247
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Glad you liked it. But that doesn't answer the question.

I'm unfamiliar with flippancy being a logical fallacy. How would you categorize it and why?

I spent a full semester studying syllogisms and critical thinking. I wish everyone did. Being flippant may be a non-sequitor but I don't see how it qualifies as being a fallacy. Perhaps you can explain it to us poorly educated peasants?
There's the following as a good working definition of a fallacy:
Quote:
Fallacies are fake or deceptive arguments, arguments that prove nothing. Fallacies often seem superficially sound, and far too often have
immense persuasive power, even after being clearly exposed as false. Fallacies are not always deliberate, but a good scholar’s purpose is always to
identify and unmask fallacies in arguments.
"Flippancy" hardly qualifies. Flippancy is an overt way of not getting sucked into arguing, either for good reason or bad.

See - we learn a lot in this thread. I'd not known all that until Vixen had ventured an opinion.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:25 AM   #1248
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All that is saying is 'although they were present at the murder and Knox washed off blood from the victim as well as Knox accusing Lumumba to cover up for Guede' it doesn't prove they did it (translated: we have received a backhander from Donald Trump and the State Department to lose the case on the grounds that Donny is a kraut just like Knox and you have the Black guy so just do it. 'America First, America First').

Despite the blatant abuse of office and backchanneling in the affairs of another country by Trump, you'll note Marasca-Bruno do not absolve the pair in any shape or form except to annul their convictions.

[url=http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=33615]


I could believe almost anything of Cheeto Benito, but even I don't believe a failed casino owner-failed 'university' owner-failed vodka producer-failed airline owner-failed steak supplier (which is what Trump was in March 2015) had that much influence on the Italian Supreme court.
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Old 11th February 2020, 11:47 AM   #1249
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
"Flippancy" hardly qualifies. Flippancy is an overt way of not getting sucked into arguing, either for good reason or bad.
I think you make a good point Bill. But Vixen has claimed an expertise in logic that she says is superior to ours. I'm always interested in learning so maybe Vixen can explain this for us.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:08 PM   #1250
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The tweet has been supplied on this very forum before so do pay attention.
I'm having déją vu here. This is the same claim you made about there being pictures proving Dr. Sollecito attended Rocco Sollecito's memorial service. How did that work out for ya?

Maybe you could contact Krissy G over on TJMK. She wrote a "tribute" back in 2015 about a visit to Meredith's grave site which she posted again last November. In it, she wrote about the (alleged) tweet from Nigel Scott.

Quote:
Newspaper reports reveal he was taken there by an “English friend”¯ and left no flowers. The “friend”¯ who was quick to betray Sollecito’s “secret”¯ is speculated to be one Nigel Scott, ex-Lib Dem Councillor in Haringey, and a purported member of the Injustice in Perugia advisory board, the rather grand name of a lobby of aggressive pro-Knox advocates.

Scott put up a picture of the grave in a tweet ““ hastily taken down ““ as the news broke. He disparagingly refers to the grave as being in “poor condition”¯, with a temporary headstone marker.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...._november_2007

As a frequent contributor to TJMK, she would likely be able to produce this (alleged) tweet if it exists. But maybe not as Krissy G didn't supply the (alleged) tweet either. In fact, in a long discussion of Scott and his (alleged) tweet on another TJMK page, it is never produced.

Quelle surprise.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:18 PM   #1251
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'm having déją vu here. This is the same claim you made about there being pictures proving Dr. Sollecito attended Rocco Sollecito's memorial service. How did that work out for ya?

Maybe you could contact Krissy G over on TJMK. She wrote a "tribute" back in 2015 about a visit to Meredith's grave site which she posted again last November. In it, she wrote about the (alleged) tweet from Nigel Scott.


http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...._november_2007

As a frequent contributor to TJMK, she would likely be able to produce this (alleged) tweet if it exists. But maybe not as Krissy G didn't supply the (alleged) tweet either. In fact, in a long discussion of Scott and his (alleged) tweet on another TJMK page, it is never produced.

Quelle surprise.
So let me get this straight.

Vixen's "source" for there being a tweet that had been "hastily taken down", that source is no less than KrissyG on TJMK?

You cannot make this stuff up.
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Old 11th February 2020, 12:46 PM   #1252
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
So let me get this straight.

Vixen's "source" for there being a tweet that had been "hastily taken down", that source is no less than KrissyG on TJMK?

You cannot make this stuff up.
What they meant to say was, if there had have been a tweet it would have said what we said was in the tweet if it ever existed.

There, I hope that's cleared that up.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:17 PM   #1253
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yeah..... you apparently don't understand the meaning of conditional clauses.

(Hint: "even if it is hypothesised that" has a very different meaning from "although")

Oh and you also appear to be (blissfully?) unaware that the ONLY remit of the Marasca SC panel was to adjudicate whether Knox and Sollecito should be found guilty or not guilty of the crimes with which they were charged. Once again, please do some basic research into the function and remit of appeal courts (they have the same remit in England&Wales and Italy, if that helps - though I've no idea what they do in Finland.....).

And what was that bizarre (and wholly irrelevant) stuff about Trump suuposed to mean?
No, that was not their remit. All the Italian Supreme Court does is rubber stamp the lower courts' findings of either 'guilty' or 'not guilty', if appealed.

None of the lower courts made a verdict of 'Not Guilty' so M-B erred in not sending it back and secondly all the Cassazione does is oversee that the law has been carried out according to legislation and due process.

It is not its job to find a verdict on the merits. It only sat for a few days. It didn't weigh up evidence. It did not find fact. It did not hear witness testimony or cross-examination.

The judicial findings that Knox was there and had her hands in Mez' blood IS based on all of the above.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:22 PM   #1254
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, that was not their remit. All the Italian Supreme Court does is rubber stamp the lower courts' findings or either 'guilty' or 'not guilty', if appealed.

None of the lower courts made a verdict of 'Not Guilty' so M-B erred in not sending it back and secondly all the Cassazione does is oversee that the law has been carried out according to legislation and due process.

It is not its job to find a verdict on the merits. It only sat for a few days. It didn't weigh up evidence. It did not find fact. It did not hear witness testimony or cross-examination.

The judicial findings that Knox was there and had her hands in Mez' blood IS based on all of the above.
What a surprise. Another stupid lie from Vixen. Basically everything Vixen just posted is false. But this is what we've come to expect. Lie after lie after lie. It's been a decade of these lies. Maybe she's going for twenty.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:32 PM   #1255
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
What's so great about your reply, is how blatantly it shows the way that meaning is skewed to hold a guilter-nutter opinion. You are thanked for being so willing to do that so overtly.


Marasca-Bruno annulled their convictions, and said there was no reliable evidence that even suggested they'd been involved. It's all in Section 9.4 of the M/B report as cited a few posts upthread.

Also..... you seem not to know that Marasca-Bruno exonerated the pair in March 2015, and that Trump became president in January 2017. Perhaps this explains why your quip is complete rubbish.
Doesn't matter. It is a fact that Donald Trump sent funds to Amanda Knox (when he owes IRS $'ms) and urged people to boycott Italy in a tv broadcast.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:35 PM   #1256
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Glad you liked it. But that doesn't answer the question.

I'm unfamiliar with flippancy being a logical fallacy. How would you categorize it and why?

I spent a full semester studying syllogisms and critical thinking. I wish everyone did. Being flippant may be a non-sequitor but I don't see how it qualifies as being a fallacy. Perhaps you can explain it to us poorly educated peasants?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:39 PM   #1257
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, that was not their remit. All the Italian Supreme Court does is rubber stamp the lower courts' findings or either 'guilty' or 'not guilty', if appealed.

None of the lower courts made a verdict of 'Not Guilty' so M-B erred in not sending it back and secondly all the Cassazione does is oversee that the law has been carried out according to legislation and due process.

It is not its job to find a verdict on the merits. It only sat for a few days. It didn't weigh up evidence. It did not find fact. It did not hear witness testimony or cross-examination.
All the above is why the 2015 verdict has been challenged in Italy as being illegal. We can expect it to be thrown out any time now....any time. Yep... any minute.

Quote:
The judicial findings that Knox was there and had her hands in Mez' blood IS based on all of the above.
The 'judicial finding' that Knox was there is bound to a previous SC finding which M/B's verdict could not conflict with. They did their best to circumvent that by including the "even if it is hypothesised that" clause. As for Meredith's blood being on Knox's hands, there is no forensic evidence to support that. None...which you know well as neither you nor anyone else has ever been able to produce said evidence, including Massei.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:42 PM   #1258
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You still haven't answered the question. You're the one who said you understand this and we don't. Something tells me that is a lot of hot air.

So put up or shut up. Because it is damned annoying reading nonsense from someone who brags and can't back it up. Please tell us how my course in Logic failed me. I'm really curious how flippancy is a logical fallacy.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:45 PM   #1259
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You still haven't answered the question. You're the one who said you understand this and we don't. Something tells me that is a lot of hot air.

So put up or shut up. Because it is damned annoying reading nonsense from someone who brags and can't back it up. Please tell us how my course in Logic failed me. I'm really curious how flippancy is a logical fallacy.
If I were to say, haha, tha was a mickey mouse course: that is being flippant. IOW I am trying to persuade people your course was rubbish by appealing to ridicule. In my school days being facetious in class led to detention.
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Old 11th February 2020, 01:51 PM   #1260
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Doesn't matter. It is a fact that Donald Trump sent funds to Amanda Knox (when he owes IRS $'ms) and urged people to boycott Italy in a tv broadcast.
Are you now claiming that Trump contributing to Knox's defense fund and urging people to boycott Italy in a tweet in 2011 (not on TV) is what caused M/B to acquit her in 2015? Really? REALLY?

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Old 11th February 2020, 01:53 PM   #1261
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If I were to say, haha, tha was a mickey mouse course: that is being flippant. IOW I am trying to persuade people your course was rubbish by appealing to ridicule. In my school days being facetious in class led to detention.
That is NOT A FALLACY. Try again.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:05 PM   #1262
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The visit to Meredith's grave by Sollecito was reported 11 Apr 2013.

We know it was Nigel Scott who took him there for Sollecito posted a picture of him on his FaceBook page 23 Mar 2013, as attached. Scott has never denied it. Sollecito took down the photo quickly but a sharp-eyed person spotted it and saved it before he did.

Here's the original photo of Nigel Scott from Raffaele Sollecito's FB. Taken March 23, 2013. (Someone has added a caption.)

The stalking of Meredith's grave began when a group of FOA women started the Free Meredith Kercher Facebook page (not to be confused with the RIP Meredith Kercher FB which is run by friends and family I think) and used Find A Grave to show how to get to her resting place. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=25923687 It was set up by FOA in 2008, and is now maintained by Karen Pruett. It had a picture of her grave but now taken down due to protests.

They posted mawkish thoughts on Facebook and Find A Grave how her spirit would finally be 'free' when her 'friend' was acquitted.

Some of the sociopathic comments on Bruce Fischer's site were how her family never put up a 'proper' head stone and we were 'haters' who never did any thing with Projects For Meredith. Just sniping from IIP how the grave was unkempt.

Pictures of Meredith, Knox and Sollecito were put up during RS book tour and the Vashon Island celebration. Candles lit.
RS went to visit her grave http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4211241.html secretly. Nigel Scott couldn't resist the gloat, posted the picture on Twitter. (He also told his supporters how sorry he was about its 'poor condition'.)

He and Knox are driven by guilt, they also display a total insensitivity, her much more so. She gloats and it shows, but her ghost written book is more about her triumph against odds blah blah.

The original article by Lizzie Smith of the Guardian said the family issued a 'veiled plea' to not visit the grave http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ly-amanda-knox

Stephanie Kercher issued a statement through Francesco Maresca.
""However, she now has a place near to us that we and her friends can visit to take flowers and spend time … Her grave is now her safe place to sleep in peace and be with us and we hope that is respected by all."

Scott tweeted the attached photo in 2013, which, as I said, he hastily took down but an eagle-eyed viewer took a screen print of it.

All 'just a coincidence'? I think not.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Nigel Scott.jpg (44.3 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg photo of merdith's grave tweeted by Scott.jpg (110.4 KB, 15 views)
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:06 PM   #1263
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That is NOT A FALLACY. Try again.
Wiki says it is.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:13 PM   #1264
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Are you now claiming that Trump contributing to Knox's defense fund and urging people to boycott Italy in a tweet in 2011 (not on TV) is what caused M/B to acquit her in 2015? Really? REALLY?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3138101284.jpg
Billary Clinton was also back-channeling the State Department as well as the senator for Seattle, WA.

It's no secret the US powers that be have utter contempt for other countries' laws as evidenced by that CIA woman Sooclas refusing to answer questions about death by dangerous driving whilst in England, whilst the UK was forced to extradite business man Walsh to the USA re Hewlett Packard, even though he is already being tried in the UK|.

Of course they interfered.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:23 PM   #1265
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wiki says it is.
Sorry, the claim you made was that being "flippant" is a logical fallacy.

Go back to the drawing board. I thought you said you knew this better than me?
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:29 PM   #1266
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Billary Clinton was also back-channeling the State Department as well as the senator for Seattle, WA.

It's no secret the US powers that be have utter contempt for other countries' laws as evidenced by that CIA woman Sooclas refusing to answer questions about death by dangerous driving whilst in England, whilst the UK was forced to extradite business man Walsh to the USA re Hewlett Packard, even though he is already being tried in the UK|.

Of course they interfered.
So we can expect the two American cop killers to be busted out of Italian prison soon then?
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Old 11th February 2020, 04:06 PM   #1267
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
As a frequent contributor to TJMK, she would likely be able to produce this (alleged) tweet if it exists. But maybe not as Krissy G didn't supply the (alleged) tweet either. In fact, in a long discussion of Scott and his (alleged) tweet on another TJMK page, it is never produced.

Quelle surprise.
It seems Vixen has teamed up with KrissyG and produced the tweet.

Yet it isn't remotely the ghoulish thing Vixen says it is. What is noted is a lot of people believing they're speaking for the original victims to all this.

Some things never change. Mr Kercher has just tragically died. The poor man never wanted his daughter forgotten in all the tabloid excess.

So when the man is tragically killed, what do the tabloids do to honour him and the daughter he loved? The majority of pictures published by those same tabloids are of someone which the final court said didn't do it. But, yet again, his daughter is pushed aside. By the tabloids.

So. Someone explain to me how exposing this tweet honours the original victim to this tragedy?

Once again the guilter-nutters are talking about everyone except the original victim.

Whatever turns your crank I guess.
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Last edited by Bill Williams; 11th February 2020 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 11th February 2020, 04:11 PM   #1268
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The visit to Meredith's grave by Sollecito was reported 11 Apr 2013.

We know it was Nigel Scott who took him there for Sollecito posted a picture of him on his FaceBook page 23 Mar 2013, as attached. Scott has never denied it. Sollecito took down the photo quickly but a sharp-eyed person spotted it and saved it before he did.

Here's the original photo of Nigel Scott from Raffaele Sollecito's FB. Taken March 23, 2013. (Someone has added a caption.)
First of all, I'm going to address the only relevant parts of your post. The rest, which I'm snipping out is all superfluous info/conjecture/opinions that does absolutely nothing to support your contention that Scott took Sollecito to the grave or that he posted a tweet about it.

RS posting a pic of Scott on his FB page proves nothing. And we only have your say so on that in the first place. Sorry, but your track record of making claims and failing to support them with evidence does not enhance your credibility. There is no doubt RS was in England at that time but that does not mean it was Scott who took him to the grave unless you want to claim that Scott is the only supporter RS had in England. It's not that Scott neither admitted nor denied he took RS; he just never answered the tweet/request that Ergon sent him.

It appears that Ergon is the initial source of this entire claim. The same Ergon (aka Man from Atlan, aka Naseer Ahmad) who believes himself a divine being and has a cure for autism.

How does a picture of Scott prove there was any such tweet from him? Scott has been accused of being various posters by the PGP. Since we've never seen this tweet, it's quite possible there was such a tweet made by some other poster that Ergon mistakenly believed to be an alias for Scott. According to you, the tweet was provided on ISF already so why can't you produce it again? Surely an avid PGP supporter like you has contacts on TJMK who could supply it to you? No?

ETA: the picture you provided with its caption from Scott in absolutely no way "mocks the paucity" or "poor condition" of Kercher's grave. This is the post from Krissy G which seems to be your source for this claim:

Quote:
He disparagingly refers to the grave as being in “poor condition”¯, with a temporary headstone marker.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 11th February 2020 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 11th February 2020, 04:29 PM   #1269
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
First of all, I'm going to address the only relevant parts of your post. The rest, which I'm snipping out is all superfluous info/conjecture/opinions that does absolutely nothing to support your contention that Scott took Sollecito to the grave or that he posted a tweet about it.
I am rolling back a consession that Vixen, citing KrissyG, had caught someone tweeting about **visiting** the grave. That tweet is a short memorial about the victim. Full stop.

The fellow in question, apparently, tweeted about not forgetting about the original victim, six years on from the horrid event on Nov 1 2007.

All the rest is the guilter-nutters doing what they accuse others of - shifting that narrative/remembrance to talking about others, usually in vile terms.

We've just, here, been talking about fallacies. Fallacies in the main are arguments structured to resemble facts and their orderly presentation, but which end in nothing burgers.

This is one.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.

Last edited by Bill Williams; 11th February 2020 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 11th February 2020, 04:35 PM   #1270
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
I am rolling back a consession that Vixen, citing KrissyG, had caught soneone tweeting about **visiting** the grave. That tweet is a short memorial about the victim. Full stop.

The fellow in question, apparently, tweeted about not forgetting about the original victim, six years on from the horrid event on Nov 1 2007.

All the rest is the guilter-nutters doing what they accuse others of - shifting that narrative/remembrance to talking about others, usually in vile terms.

We've just, here, been talking about fallacies. Fallacies in the main are arguments structured to resemble facts and their orderly presentation, but which end in nothing burgers.

This is one.
The more avid PGP do have a tendency to misrepresent/twist what is actually said so that it appears to fit their narrative.

I've yet to see a tweet from Scott saying anything disparaging about Kercher's grave. The only tweet that's been provided is anything but disparaging. It's as much evidence of Vixen's claims as a picture of Dr Sollecito coming out of a building in a completely different town long before Rocco Sollecito died is proof that the doctor attended Rocco's memorial.

ETA: I love how 'eagle-eyed' has no become 'sharp-eyed'!

Last edited by Stacyhs; 11th February 2020 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:55 PM   #1271
AnimalFriendly
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Billary Clinton was also back-channeling the State Department as well as the senator for Seattle, WA.

It's no secret the US powers that be have utter contempt for other countries' laws as evidenced by that CIA woman Sooclas refusing to answer questions about death by dangerous driving whilst in England, whilst the UK was forced to extradite business man Walsh to the USA re Hewlett Packard, even though he is already being tried in the UK|.

Of course they interfered.
There's no such thing as a "senator for Seattle, WA". There are, however, two U.S. Senators for the state of Washington. There's also no such person as Billary Clinton. I do find it amusing that Vix thinks Knox is important enough for the U.S. Department of State et al to expend that much effort.
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Old 11th February 2020, 07:00 PM   #1272
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According to Massei, Knox likely carried the kitchen knife from Sollecito's apartment in"the very large handbag" she used as a book bag. I have to wonder why Curatolo, who claimed to have seen Knox and Sollecito hanging around Piazza Grimana from about 9:30, never mentioned this "very large handbag" that she would have had with her.
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Old 11th February 2020, 07:59 PM   #1273
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Billary Clinton was also back-channeling the State Department as well as the senator for Seattle, WA.
Yeah, yeah...you've made this claim before and failed to present a single piece of supporting evidence.

Quote:
There is an email from Hillary Clinton in one of Wikileaks' leaked Clinton emails in which she promised, I believe, Maria Cantwell, she would look into it.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12882206

Not only is there a tweet from Nigel Scott your can't produce, you couldn't produce the "Clinton email" either. On the other hand, I could produce the interview where Clinton mentioned "looking into it":
Quote:
Quote:
Hillary Clinton has said that she will meet a US senator to discuss claims that Amanda Knox was the victim of a flawed trial and anti-Americanism.
Quote:
Quote:
Maria Cantwell, a US Democrat senator for Washington state has said she plans to bring her own concerns about the trial, including possible anti-Americanism, to the Mrs Clinton's attention.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...anda-Knox.html

Just like the alleged Scott tweet, you never produced the "Clinton email" nor did you ever admit you were wrong. You did what you always do: you just dropped it only to resurrect its poor dried out carcass it later.

Quote:
It's no secret the US powers that be have utter contempt for other countries' laws as evidenced by that CIA woman Sooclas Sacoolas refusing to answer questions about death by dangerous driving whilst in England, whilst the UK was forced to extradite business man Walsh to the USA re Hewlett Packard, even though he is already being tried in the UK|.

Of course they interfered.
FTFY. Wrong again. Sacoolas did talk to the police while in England:

Quote:
(Nick Adderley, chief constable of @NorthantsPolice) said that Sacoolas spoke with police at the scene of the accident, and talked with them again the next day before invoking diplomatic immunity, which forced police to seek a waiver.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ew/4060691002/

Who the hell is Walsh? Are you talking a about Dr. Mike Lynch who was extradited for alleged fraud in the Autonomy-HP case?

The US didn't "force" the UK to do anything. The UK was following the terms of the treaty they signed with the US.
Quote:
The UK-US extradition treaty of 2003 says that the Home Secretary ‘must’ process the request.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...s-Britons.html

Walsh had no diplomatic immunity which, by the way, works both ways. If the situation had been reversed and a Briton who was covered by immunity had killed someone in a road accident in the US, he would have been sent back to the UK.

Please try and be more accurate with the facts.
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Old 11th February 2020, 09:29 PM   #1274
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yeah, yeah...you've made this claim before and failed to present a single piece of supporting evidence.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12882206

Not only is there a tweet from Nigel Scott your can't produce, you couldn't produce the "Clinton email" either. On the other hand, I could produce the interview where Clinton mentioned "looking into it":


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...anda-Knox.html

Just like the alleged Scott tweet, you never produced the "Clinton email" nor did you ever admit you were wrong. You did what you always do: you just dropped it only to resurrect its poor dried out carcass it later.



FTFY. Wrong again. Sacoolas did talk to the police while in England:


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ew/4060691002/

Who the hell is Walsh? Are you talking a about Dr. Mike Lynch who was extradited for alleged fraud in the Autonomy-HP case?

The US didn't "force" the UK to do anything. The UK was following the terms of the treaty they signed with the US.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...s-Britons.html

Walsh had no diplomatic immunity which, by the way, works both ways. If the situation had been reversed and a Briton who was covered by immunity had killed someone in a road accident in the US, he would have been sent back to the UK.

Please try and be more accurate with the facts.
The Daily Mail states in its article:

"The fact that he was arrested at all brings into sharp relief the problems with our relationship with the United States. When the US Department of Justice requests the extradition of a UK citizen, we effectively have no choice but to cough them up. The UK-US extradition treaty of 2003 says that the Home Secretary ‘must’ process the request."

The Daily Mail statement is contrary to the truth. There is no such statement in the US-UK extradition treaty. Possibly UK law requires the Home Secretary to extradite someone on request of the US or some other country, but I very much doubt that is true either.

A reading of the Daily Mail article shows that it is essentially an anti-US tirade that does not actually quote any part of the extradition treaty.

The DM article states that the treaty was negotiated in secret. It is probably true that many diplomatic treaties are negotiated in private. What the article does not state is that the extradition treaty was ratified in public sessions, with open discussion, by the Senate of the US and by the House of Commons of the UK Parliament.

The extradition treaty, in its Article 13, leaves the decision of whether to extradite or not a person sought by a "requesting state" entirely in the hands of the "competent authority" of the "requested state" where that sought person is believed to be present. There is no difference in the treaty between the treatment of a request from the US compared to one from the UK. Extradition may or may not be granted at the will of the "requested state", but reasons for a denial must be presented (Article 13, paragraph 2).

Here is the wording of the relevant part of the treaty:

Quote:

Article 13
Decision and Surrender


1. The Requested State shall promptly notify the Requesting State of its decision on the request for extradition. Such notification should be transmitted directly to the competent authority designated by the Requesting State to receive such notification and through the diplomatic channel.

2. If the request is denied in whole or in part, the Requested State shall provide reasons for the denial. The Requested State shall provide copies of pertinent judicial decisions upon request.

3. If the request for extradition is granted, the authorities of the Requesting and Requested States shall agree on the time and place for the surrender of the person sought.

4. If the person sought is not removed from the territory of the Requested State within the time period prescribed by the law of that State, that person may be discharged from custody, and the Requested State, in its discretion, may subsequently refuse extradition for the same offense(s).
Sources:

https://www.congress.gov/treaty-docu.../document-text

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...hange-of-notes

Of relevance to the Knox case, the treaty between the US and Italy has the same wording in its "Decision and Surrender" article. Such wording is apparently contained in all modern US extradition treaties.

Thus, the US is never obligated to surrender a sought person requested by the treaty partner, nor is the treaty partner obligated to surrender a sought person requested by the US. However, reasons for the denial of the extradition must be provided.

ETA: The UK extradition process is not automatic, and extradition from the UK requires the approval of a court. Here is the true state of UK law:

Quote:
Once arrested, the requested person must be brought to Westminster Magistrates’ Court (where all extradition proceedings in England & Wales are conducted). There are proceedings in all cases; extradition is not “automatic”, even under the EAW.

If the requested person does not consent to extradition, the court will consider whether:

the conduct described in the warrant amounts to an extradition offence;
any of the statutory bars to extradition apply;
there is prima facie evidence of guilt (if applicable, see below);
extradition would be disproportionate or would be incompatible with the requested person’s human rights.

In EAW cases the court will decide whether to discharge the case or to order extradition.

In all other cases the court will decide whether to discharge the case or send the case to the Home Office to consider extradition.
Source: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/extradition

One phenomenon revealed here is how misinformation published in an unreliable media article with an agenda distorts readers' perceptions. This phenomenon may help explain how some of the pro-guilt posters have become fixated in their misconceptions of the Knox - Sollecito case.

Last edited by Numbers; 11th February 2020 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:03 AM   #1275
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In other words, the UK was not "forced" to extradite Lynch..or, in Vixen speak, "Walsh".
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Old 12th February 2020, 05:19 AM   #1276
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It turns out Knox was a CIA agent, and Meredith caught some shrapnel from an exploding cigar meant for some PCI party official threatening Coca Cola profits.
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Old 12th February 2020, 07:01 AM   #1277
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
In other words, the UK was not "forced" to extradite Lynch..or, in Vixen speak, "Walsh".
Yes, exactly. And Anne Sacoolas, even if she was responsible for the accident, allegedly had diplomatic immunity which the US declined to drop - that is, the US acted as though she did have diplomatic immunity. The reason given by the US government not to drop it was to avoid setting a precedent: "The US State Department's initial response was "The use of an extradition treaty to attempt to return the spouse of a former diplomat by force would establish an extraordinarily troubling precedent...." The UK apparently agreed that under international law, she had diplomatic immunity: "A{n} FCO spoke{s}man commented 'As the Foreign Secretary set out in Parliament, the individual involved had diplomatic immunity whilst in the country under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.'"

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Dunn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity

The only aspect of this diversion relating to the Knox case is that had her extradition been requested after the Nencini provisional conviction, the US Secretary of State, working with legal experts in the State Department and the Justice Department, would have presumably recognized the flaws in the conviction and would have notified Italy of the reasons not to extradite. That would be the only obligation under the extradition treaty with Italy. Extradition is not automatic.

Last edited by Numbers; 12th February 2020 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 12th February 2020, 09:15 AM   #1278
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
and we were 'haters' who never did any thing with Projects For Meredith.
So have you, The Machine, Pete et al started any "Projects For Meredith"? If so, can you name a few? How about just one?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

Scott tweeted the attached photo in 2013, which, as I said, he hastily took down but an eagle-eyed viewer took a screen print of it.
There were no words about "poor condition" but rather ones like "Let us remember", "RIP" and "not forgotten". Were you upset by the photo itself?
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:56 AM   #1279
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Apropos to nothing, but.... has anyone heard anything about the presentation Harry Rag/The Machine was preparing to publish last Nov that was going to prove Amanda's DNA was on the bra clasp? I think it was listed as part of several 'very exciting' initiatives TJMK had scheduled for 2020. I can't find that list or any mention of the presentation.

I was hoping to learn a whole new way to interpret egrams... I'm sure it was going to be very exciting and insightful.
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Old 12th February 2020, 11:32 AM   #1280
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An emerging story on the Sacoolas case is that the reason she was spirited out of the UK so quickly is that she is a former CIA spy herself even more senior than her husband.
Quote:
Anne Sacoolas, 42, fled the UK after the death last August of 19-year-old biker Harry Dunn, claiming diplomatic immunity because her husband, Jonathan Sacoolas, worked in a still-murky US diplomatic job.

But she was previously an agent for the CIA who was more senior than her husband, according to the Mail on Sunday, which cited multiple sources in both Washington and London.

Sky News also confirmed Sacoolas’ previously role in the CIA, it said, with former foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt telling the broadcaster that it could explain why the US has remained so steadfast in barring extradition.
https://nypost.com/2020/02/09/anne-s...ly-ex-cia-spy/

Last edited by Stacyhs; 12th February 2020 at 12:08 PM.
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