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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 16th February 2020, 04:01 AM   #1401
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sooner be called a bushy-tailed canid <fx shakes hapless chicken between jaws> than a fan of Amanda Knox! Quite rightly, most people would not want to be associated with that embarrassing label. Saul Kassin, psychologist, was simply himself cashing in on his own pet theory. Just because false memory exists it doesn't prove that is what Knox was suffering when she coldly and callously tried to pin the murder and rape onto a man she knew to be 100% innocent and with a young toddler who needed his dad but had to watch sobbing with Mummy whilst Daddy was dragged from his home in his underpants at early dawn as a result of her disgusting accusation.


Erm....... you do know, don't you, that 1) there's not one single piece of credible, reliable evidence that Knox (or Sollecito) had anything whatsoever to do with Kercher's murder, and 2) Italy is (quite properly and justly) in the process of "revising" Knox's criminal slander conviction (which in practice cannot end in anything other than an annulment and acquittal), following a comprehensive and embarrassing ass-whipping from the ECHR?


I strongly suggest that you:

a) educate yourself a whole lot further in the area of coercive interrogation;

b) familiarise yourself with the actual dynamic of Knox's police interrogation on the night of 5/6 November 2007, in which the police effectively instructed Knox to "confirm" Lumumba's primary involvement in the murder, and told her that if she did not supply such "confirmation", her own situation would be far worse;

c) read (for comprehension) the ECHR adjudication, in which the supranational human rights court in Europe/Eurasia ruled (correctly) that Knox's statements from 5/6 November 2007 were null and void, owing to multiple breaches of Knox's human rights (including grossly improper coercive interrogation techniques, and the grossly improper acts of the so-called "interpreter" (who was, in fact, acting as part of the police interrogation team, and helping to convince Knox to "remember" Lumumba's involvement)).


And then you might in fact at least have a chance of figuring this whole area out.


(Oh and you've been told now multiple times about your misleading and improper use of the word "fan". Don't use it again.)
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Old 16th February 2020, 04:07 AM   #1402
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Her counsel, Dalla Vedova breached bar standards by failing to lodge a complaint on his client's behalf, as Italian standards require him to do so.

Oooh. "Breached bar standards" you say? Perhaps then you can point me towards the relevant bar association's condemnation and sanction against Dalla Vedova for this "breach", Vixen......



Quote:
If Knox was brutalised as she claims, why did she not report it to Dalla Vedova at the time, or the US envoy who visited her regularly.

Your misleadingly hyperbolic use of the word "brutalised" is duly noted. As is you apparent unwillingness to learn about coercive interrogation techniques. As is your apparent unwillingness to understand the meaning and implication of the ECHR adjudication in this case.



Quote:
Truth is, like a lot of crooks, she thought it a clever idea to claim having been beaten up by the police, so she's the victim and not the person who is the genuine victim.

Yeah..... again, read the ECHR adjudication. Properly.



Quote:
There is something particularly despicable about accusing a man you know is innocent of rape and murder, and in addition, falsely claiming to have been tortured by the police.

There is indeed. But please point out how this is in any way relevant to our case. (Hint: read the ECHR adjudication - properly, this time - before attempting an answer....)
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Old 16th February 2020, 04:10 AM   #1403
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Would it be de trop for me to request material evidence to support this claim?

Any update on your production of evidence to support your claim of "political interference" in the Marasca SC panel's verdict, Vixen? I'm waiting with bated breath!!

(Of course, if you either cannot or will not supply credible and reliable evidence to support this claim, you'll be withdrawing it and not repeating it. Right?)
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Old 16th February 2020, 04:35 AM   #1404
Welshman
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's little surprise Knox fans are keen to suppress the court documents, transcripts and evidence as it doesn't support their agenda that 'Knox was railroaded by the police'.
PGP posters are so staggeringly stupid they came up with utterly ludicrous ideas which are blatantly contradicted by the facts. One such claim is that there was overwhelming evidence against Amanda and Raffaele and PIP posters are covering this up.

One problem with this claim is that there was a lot of evidence missing which Vixen never mentions. Besides the dubious bra clasp, there was no forensic traces of Amanda and Raffaele in Meredith’s room. No reliable witnesses saw Amanda and Raffaele near the cottage on the night of the murder. Amanda and Raffaele were not caught on CCTV coming to and from the cottage. Meredith lost vast amounts of blood but despite this Amanda and Raffaele left no blood traces in the Meredith’s room such as bloody footprints and palm prints. There was no blood transfer in Amanda’s room or Raffaele’s flat. There was no blood on Amanda and Raffaele’s clothing. There were no cuts on Amanda or Raffaele’s hands which should have occurred when trying to stab someone. The prosecution couldn’t find a motive which is proved by the fact the prosecution had to constantly change motives which indicated that each motive suggested was not credible and the prosecution had to find something else. As the link below shows the evidence suggests Meredith and Amanda had a good relationship and Amanda had no hatred towards Meredith. The phones of Amanda and Raffaele were tapped for three days and nothing incriminating was said in their phone calls. Amanda had no history of psychiatric disorders or violence. No attempt was made by Amanda and Raffaele to feel Perugia unlike Guede.

If the prosecution had so much evidence and a slam dunk case, why did the prosecution need to resort to the tactics below and why is it blatantly obvious these tactics overwhelmingly indicated the prosecution had a lack of evidence. For instance, there were numerous instances of the prosecution lying. Why would a prosecution with a mountain of evidence at their disposal need to lie.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contam...bwork-coverup/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredi...ry-corruption/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/evidence-destroyed/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-...irs-apartment/
https://knoxsollecito.wordpress.com/...ele-sollecito/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post11071314

Below are the forensic eye witness testimony used against Amanda Raffaele. The evidence against Amanda and Raffaele had no credibility and was full of holes. It speaks volumes about the quality of the case against Amanda and Raffaele when a knife whose characteristics would have made it physically impossible for it have been used to stab Meredith or contain DNA is the best evidence the prosecution can come up with in six years.
A knife with the following characteristics

The knife was picked at random with no other knives taken from Raffaele’s kitchen or the cottage. Is it credible a knife collected under these circumstances was the murder weapon.
The knife didn’t match a bloody imprint on the bed.
The knife was too large to have caused the two smaller wounds.
There was bruising on the fatal wound which indicated the knife had gone all the way in. The length of the fatal wound was 8 cm whilst the length of the knife was 17 cm which indicated the knife couldn’t have caused the larger wound.
The knife didn’t have any blood or human biological material on it.
The defence had no objection to the knife being opened while the prosecution didn’t want the knife opened.

Luminol Footprints with the following characteristics

All footprints were negative for TMB which is highly sensitive and can detect as few as five red blood cells
None of the luminol prints contained Meredith’s DNA which should have existed if they had been made in Meredith’s blood.
None of the prints were in Meredith’s room
None of the prints showed blood visible to the naked eye
Two of the prints were shapeless blobs which were impossible to determine who they belonged to

A bra clasp with the following characteristics

Not collected for six weeks
The crime scene had been trashed by the time the clasp was discovered
The claps was dirty and damaged by the time it was discovered
Stefanoni didn’t want the claps tested and allowed it to rust
There were other profiles on the clasp which supported contamination

The witness testimony had credibility
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredi...mised-witness/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/antonio-curatolo/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/marco-quintavalle/
Below are some of the numerous falsehoods Vixen has said in her posts. If there was a mountain of evidence, why would Vixen need to tell a mountain of lies if she had a mountain of genuine evidence to argue her case on?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post11938562
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post11942852
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post11598412
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post11427461
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post11951893
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post11982023
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12107306
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post12200863
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post12297573
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12297575

Vixen claims that PIP want to suppress court documents. PGP posters support corrupt prosecutors who engaged in the massive suppression of evidence and PGP posters are so stupid they don’t see the hypocrisy of accusing PIP of suppressing documents.

Vixen accuses PIP of suppressing court testimony and transcripts. Do the court documents and transcripts PIP are suppressing include the following :-

* Vixen’s idol Stefanoni committing perjury and not being able to answer basic questions such as how much DNA was on the clasp and knife.

* Prosecutor Comodi lying to Amanda in court asking why Amanda called her mother in court at 12.00 pm when phone records show Amanda phoned her mother at 12.47 pm.

* The British girls caught changing their testimony in court
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/the-british-girls/


* Curalto giving incoherent testimony in court

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/antonio-curatolo/

* The numerous falsehoods Nencini wrote in motivation. Why did Nencini have to lie in his motivation report if the case if there was much evidence against Amanda?

http://injusticeanywhereforum.org/vi...4e7d14c1f6e85b

* The ridiculous arguments used by Massie in his motivation report. Why would Massei need to resort to these arguments if the case was such a slam dunk?

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.or...b0f2386ad648ea

The gross stupidity of PGP posters results in another ludicrous claim and that is the idea Amanda and Raffaele were railroaded by corrupt prosecutors is a myth. The prosecution violated the rights of Amanda and Raffaele during the interrogations, fed false information to the media, lied to Amanda she had HIV, engaged in the massive suppression of evidence, covered up evidence beneficial to Amanda and Raffaele eg the negative TMB results and destroyed evidence which makes it blatantly obvious Amanda and Raffaele were railroaded.
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Old 16th February 2020, 04:51 AM   #1405
Welshman
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sooner be called a bushy-tailed canid <fx shakes hapless chicken between jaws> than a fan of Amanda Knox! Quite rightly, most people would not want to be associated with that embarrassing label. Saul Kassin, psychologist, was simply himself cashing in on his own pet theory. Just because false memory exists it doesn't prove that is what Knox was suffering when she coldly and callously tried to pin the murder and rape onto a man she knew to be 100% innocent and with a young toddler who needed his dad but had to watch sobbing with Mummy whilst Daddy was dragged from his home in his underpants at early dawn as a result of her disgusting accusation.
A reminder from previous posts of the disgusting hypocrisy Vixen shows when attacking Amanda for falsely accusing Lumumba. Vixen complains the supreme court acted illegally in annulling the conviction. Numerous laws were broken during the interrogations but for some reason Vixen has no issue with Italian laws being broken when it works against Amanda and Raffaele. PGP posters are so staggeringly stupid they don't see it as hypocritical to attack someone for falsely accusing someone of a crime and then falsely accusing people of crimes yourself.

“Amanda being convicted of Calunnia is a major injustice in this case. Amanda’s rights were violated during the interrogation by being denied access to lawyers. The interrogation was not taped and there is no record of what happened in the interrogation. The two statements below are clearly prepared by the police and short on details. If Amanda has named Lumumba, why did the police prepare statements for the Amanda to sign?

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/145Statement.pdf
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/545Statement.pdf

As can be seen from Amanda’s statement below, Amanda withdrew the accusation against Lumumba. Vixen for some reason never mentions this.

http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-content...moriale-II.pdf

The police didn’t carry out a proper investigation. Amanda was not asked what time the murder happened, what was discussed before the murder, what was Lumumba wearing, did Lumumba use a weapon, what happened after the murder. As can be seen from the link below, the police didn’t check witnesses to see if Lumumba was at the bar and only carried out minimal forensic investigations. Lumumba initially said in a statement that the police tried to beat a confession out of him. Lumumba was still held when tests came which excluded him as the rapist. Lumumba’s bar was kept closed after he was released. If Vixen and other PGP care so much about Lumumba, why are the strangely silent about the brutal treatment Lumumba received from the police?

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/patrick-lumumba/

Vixen conveniently forgets that false accusations have been made against Amanda and Raffaele. The witnesses Kokomani, Gioffredi, Curalto and Quintavelle provided false testimony against Amanda and Raffaele. Guede falsely accused Amanda and Raffaele of being at the cottage when he murdered Meredith. Vixen made the false allegation Hellman received a massive bribe to find Amanda and Raffaele not guilty. Vixen and other PGP have attacked Amanda for falsely accusing Lumumba and felt a prison sentence was justified but Vixen felt it was perfectly acceptable for people to make false accusations against Amanda and Raffaele and for Vixen to falsely accuse Hellman of committing a crime which is typical of the disgusting and repulsive Vixen shows in her posts. Of all the vile hypocrisy Vixen has shown in her post I feel this ranks as the worst. Vixen viciously attacks Amanda for telling lies and then spreads malicious lies about Hellman being bribed.”


“In addition to the false allegation Hellman received massive bribe, there are other examples where Vixen has made false allegations people have committed crimes. In the posts below Vixen makes a false allegation Vecchiotti was convicted of gross negligence and Vinci used photoshop which would be criminal misconduct. If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was such a slam dunk why is necessary to resort to lies? Vixen has consistently refused to answer this question. Vixen has made three false allegations people have committed crimes and has the cheek to attack Amanda for falsely accusing Lumumba of committing a crime. The evidence suggests Amanda was pressurised into naming Lumumba and Amanda withdrew the allegation. Vixen has made deliberate false allegations without being put under pressure. Vixen says Amanda deserves time in prison and should pay Lumumba but Vixen feels it is perfectly acceptable for her to falsely accuse people of crimes without being punished or be liable to pay money. Vixen has not shown any remorse over these false allegations and has refused to withdraw them. Vixen viciously attacks Amanda for lying and spreads malicious lies about people. Words can’t describe how utterly repulsive this hypocrisy is.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post11951893

Post dated 20.03.2016
Claim: and even defense forensic expert 'Photoshop' Vinci discovered Amanda's DNA on the bra, together with Rudy's.
Truth: Amanda’s DNA was not on the clasp and this has never been part of the prosecution’s case. There is no record of the defence agreeing Amanda’s DNA was on the clasp and there is no evidence Vinci used Photoshop.

Another way Vixen shows disgusting hypocrisy is that Vixen has no problem if people make false accusations if they work against Amanda and Raffaele. In addition to witnesses giving false testimony and Rudy lying about Amanda and Raffaele being at the cottage when he killed Meredith, there are other instances where false accusations were made against Amanda and Raffaele :-

• As can be seen from the links below the prosecution fed false information about the purchase of bleach, the washing machine running, Amanda showering in a blood bathroom, the Harry Potter book. Prosecutor Comodi lied to Amanda in court saying she had called her mother at 12.00 pm when in fact phone records showed she phoned her mother at 12.47 pm. In yet another example of disgusting hypocrisy, Vixen attacked Amanda and Raffaele for lying in court but had no problem with the prosecution lying to Amanda in court. The postal police lied about the time they arrived at the cottage to give the false impression Raffaele called the police after they arrived. Vixen had no issue with police/prosecution making false allegations against Amanda and Raffaele. Vixen bangs on about Amanda telling numerous lies but defends corrupt/police prosecutors who told numerous lies. It is a sign of the industrial scale stupidity of PGP is that they claim the prosecution had a mountain of evidence and a slam dunk case when they had to resort to telling numerous lies.

https://knoxsollecito.wordpress.com/...ele-sollecito/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html


• As can be seen from the link below, the media false allegations against Amanda. Vixen had no issue with the media making false allegations. Vixen bangs on about Amanda telling numerous lies but stayed silent about the media telling numerous lies about Amanda.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda-knox-media-lies/”
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Old 16th February 2020, 12:52 PM   #1406
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sooner be called a bushy-tailed canid <fx shakes hapless chicken between jaws> than a fan of Amanda Knox!
Looks like someone's discovered a new word to add to her list of disparaging terms to use on anyone who doesn't support her agenda.

Quote:
Quite rightly, most people would not want to be associated with that embarrassing label.
Quite rightly, most adults would not embarrass themselves by resorting to childish name calling anyone and everyone who disagrees with them.

Quote:
Saul Kassin, psychologist, was simply himself cashing in on his own pet theory. Just because false memory exists it doesn't prove that is what Knox was suffering
Ah, yes. Kassin is just another shill in need of "cashing in" because he desperately needs to enhance his reputation in the field of psychology:

Quote:
Saul Kassin is a distinguished professor of psychology at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. Kassin pioneered the scientific study of false confessions. He has also studied the effect confessions have on judges, juries, lay witnesses, forensic science examiners and the plea bargaining process. His research has been funded by the National Science Foundation.

Kassin is past president of APA’s Division 41, American Psychology-Law Society. In 2017, he received the Distinguished Contributions to Research in Public Policy Award from APA and in 2007, he was awarded an APA Presidential Citation for his work on false confessions. His work has been cited all over the world, including by the U.S. Supreme Court and the Supreme Court of Canada. He has appeared as an analyst on television news shows and in documentaries — most notably, Ken Burns’ 2012 film, The Central Park Five. He has also consulted in numerous high-profile court cases.
(American Psychological Association


Quote:
when she coldly and callously tried to pin the murder and rape onto a man she knew to be 100% innocent
Was that part of her plan to pin the crime on Guede? I do wish the PGP would make up their minds whether Knox was covering for Guede or setting him up to take the blame.


Quote:
and with a young toddler who needed his dad but had to watch sobbing with Mummy whilst Daddy was dragged from his home in his underpants at early dawn as a result of her disgusting accusation.
You do realize those were the actions of the police, not Knox?

Last edited by Stacyhs; 16th February 2020 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 16th February 2020, 10:19 PM   #1407
Numbers
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Conveniently for English speakers, the Italian Constitutional Court has a database of its important judgments translated into English. The Constitutional Court's Judgment 113 of 2011 ruled that Italian law CPP 630, which specifies the circumstances allowing the revision of final convictions, was unconstitutional because it failed to include a provision for revision of a final conviction found to be the result of an unfair trial (violation of Convention Article 6.1) by the ECHR. The Constitutional Court ruling requires consideration of a revision request when a judgment by the ECHR finds that a final conviction was the result of an unfair trial.

Judgment 113 of 2011 is relevant to Amanda Knox's conviction for calunnia, which was declared a violation of Convention Articles 6.1 with 6.3c (unfair trial due to denial of a defense lawyer during interrogation) and Articles 6.1 with 6.3e (unfair trial due to denial of a fair interpreter during interrogation).

The English text of Judgment 113 of 2011 (PDF) may be found by following the link "Read the document" at:

https://www.cortecostituzionale.it/actionJudgment.do


Quote:
Judgment No. 113 of 2011
Ugo DE SIERVO, President - Giuseppe FRIGO, Author of the Judgment
Read the document

In this case the Court considered a reference from the Bologna Court of Appeal concerning the constitutionality of the provision of the Code of Civil Procedure {sic; should be: Code of Criminal Procedure} which did not provide for criminal proceedings to be reopened if the original judgment had been ruled unfair by a final judgment of the European Court of Human Rights. The Court ruled that the situation was unconstitutional, and that the relevant provision had to be read as granting the right to request that a criminal trial be reopened under those circumstances.
The case considered by the Constitutional Court was the final conviction of Paolo Dorigo, which was found to be a violation of Convention Articles 6.1 with 6.3d (unfair trial due to denial of the right to examine witnesses) by the ECHR. The Committee of Ministers' final resolution of the case Dorigo v. Italy may be read at:

http://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=001-81277

One excerpt of interest from the final resolution is:

Quote:
Welcoming the judgment given, in response to this action, on 1 December 2006 by the Court of Cassation, which declared the applicant's {Dorigo's} detention unlawful, and ordered his final release, referring to the direct effects of the Convention in Italian law, noted Italy's prolonged failure to take action, in persistent violation of the Convention – in spite of the various interim resolutions adopted by the Committee of Ministers;
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Old 17th February 2020, 03:51 AM   #1408
Wilson85
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is incorrect. To have diplomatic immunity, you have to be registered as a diplomat, and Sacoolas was NOT. It is irrelevant she was ex-CIA.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...-immunity.html

"Their family members enjoy no immunity at all. There are exceptions. In rare cases, both the second and third categories of embassy personnel above may enjoy as much immunity as diplomatic agents. But this happens only when the home country and the host country enter a special agreement (or treaty) for that purpose."

Did you even read the article you linked and quoted in your post?

Why did you leave the highlighted from the (irrelevant) paragraph you quoted:
Quote:
Yet other embassy employees (chauffeurs, for example), who only indirectly support diplomatic activities, enjoy the lowest degree of immunity.They have (either criminal or civil) immunity only for acts performed in connection with their embassy role. Their family members enjoy no immunity at all.

There are exceptions. In rare cases, both the second and third categories of embassy personnel above may enjoy as much immunity as diplomatic agents. But this happens only when the home country and the host country enter a special agreement (or treaty) for that purpose.

If you read the article again you may figure out why Sacoolas does not belong to the second (e.g. secretaries) and third (e.g. chauffure) category.
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Old 17th February 2020, 04:42 AM   #1409
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Wilson85 View Post
Did you even read the article you linked and quoted in your post?

Why did you leave the highlighted from the (irrelevant) paragraph you quoted:



If you read the article again you may figure out why Sacoolas does not belong to the second (e.g. secretaries) and third (e.g. chauffure) category.


One might almost suspect it to have been a deliberate attempt to mislead.

I guess we'll have to wait a couple of weeks for any chance of knowing.....
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Old 17th February 2020, 09:43 AM   #1410
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Wilson85 View Post
Did you even read the article you linked and quoted in your post?

Why did you leave the highlighted from the (irrelevant) paragraph you quoted:



If you read the article again you may figure out why Sacoolas does not belong to the second (e.g. secretaries) and third (e.g. chauffure) category.
The biggest omission relating to the citation of the NOLO article, however, is this:

Quote:
This article will take a closer look at the actual legal standards governing diplomatic immunity, especially in the United States. The basis for this is the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which the U.S. has adopted.
In other words, the article is about diplomatic immunity under US law, which some posters are apparently misrepresenting as UK law.

Another point that posters may be missing is that of the "treaty" or "agreement" (between the US and UK) aspect. Here is an excerpt of an article from ABC News about this aspect:

Quote:
Following Dunn's death and Sacoolas' departure, the British foreign secretary, Dominic Raab, commissioned a review of the immunity arrangements for U.S. personnel under the the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.

The review, which concluded Friday, said it is "considered the anomaly that family members of U.S. officers serving at the Annex at RAF Croughton have, under current arrangements between the U.K. and the U.S., greater protection from UK criminal jurisdiction than the officers themselves."
Source: https://abcnews.go.com/International...ry?id=67849994

ETA: The introduction into this thread of the Sacoolas - Dunn case in the UK was apparently motivated by some pro-guilt posters seeking to use it as an example of US government interference regarding criminal charges against US citizen in other countries, and thus a rationale* for the final and definitive acquittal by the Supreme Court of Cassation of Amanda Knox in Italy.

Examination of the facts show that the two cases are different and that the introduction of the Sacoolas - Dunn case into this thread is a diversion.

Anne Sacoolas' husband was a US government employee working on a UK RAF base in a continuing joint intelligence mission. Any alleged criminal responsibility that he and his wife might be alleged to have were apparently covered by a treaty or agreement between the US and the UK apparently specific to the joint intelligence mission.

This has no parallel with the Amanda Knox case. Knox was a student in Italy and not a US government employee, and was not associated with a joint intelligence mission in either the UK or Italy.

* In place of the rationale provided in the Marasca CSC Panel motivation report, that there was absolutely no credible reliable evidence, under Italian law, to convict Knox or Sollecito of the murder/rape of Kercher.

Last edited by Numbers; 17th February 2020 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 17th February 2020, 10:06 AM   #1411
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Vixen
and with a young toddler who needed his dad but had to watch sobbing with Mummy whilst Daddy was dragged from his home in his underpants at early dawn as a result of her disgusting accusation.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You do realize those were the actions of the police, not Knox?
What neither Vixen nor any of the guilter-nutters ever address is what the most reputable, guilter-friendly author (with the closest relationship with the police) wrote about what Mignini relates about the aftermath of the all night interrogation.

On one page Follain relates that Mignini regarded Knox as a liar. Yet a couple of pages later Mignini is quoted as saying (paraphrase): "We had to arrest Lumumba because Knox had accused him."

Put this side by side with Mignini arresting Ficarra and Napoleoni for slapping Knox on the back of the head. Why would Mignini have made those arrests? Because Knox had accused them.

Except.......... a 10 piece dinner set to the first poster who spots the error in the last paragraph!
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:09 PM   #1412
Stacyhs
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Mignini was not forced to arrest Lumumba, so his statement is false from the start. Just as he was not forced to arrest Knox and Sollecito when he did. Chief Superintendent Marco Chiacchiera counseled Mignini to wait and gather more information by close surveillance and wire tapping the pair. It was Mignini who made the decision to rush out and arrest Lumumba and it was the police who dragged him from his home in his underpants at early dawn in front of his young son. For Vixen to blame the behavior of the police on Knox is dishonest.
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:42 PM   #1413
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Mignini was not forced to arrest Lumumba, so his statement is false from the start. Just as he was not forced to arrest Knox and Sollecito when he did. Chief Superintendent Marco Chiacchiera counseled Mignini to wait and gather more information by close surveillance and wire tapping the pair. It was Mignini who made the decision to rush out and arrest Lumumba and it was the police who dragged him from his home in his underpants at early dawn in front of his young son. For Vixen to blame the behavior of the police on Knox is dishonest.
This is correct. The prosecutor's legal obligation was to investigate - using the police - not to arrest someone on an uncorroborated and dubious (because coerced) statement.

All that Mignini needed to do was request that Lumumba come to the police station for a DNA swab. This could be obtained by a magistrate's order under Italian law if the person did not agree. Mignini, using the Scientific Police, would then have compared Lumumba's DNA profile to the DNA profile in the rape kit and other DNA evidence in the murder room and realized that Lumumba was not the rapist and not the murderer. That is what a true "Sherlock Holmes" would have done. But Mignini was lazy, unscientific, hapless and biased as leader of the investigation, so he did not follow rational and legal procedures.
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Old 17th February 2020, 01:44 PM   #1414
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
This is correct. The prosecutor's legal obligation was to investigate - using the police - not to arrest someone on an uncorroborated and dubious (because coerced) statement.

All that Mignini needed to do was request that Lumumba come to the police station for a DNA swab. This could be obtained by a magistrate's order under Italian law if the person did not agree. Mignini, using the Scientific Police, would then have compared Lumumba's DNA profile to the DNA profile in the rape kit and other DNA evidence in the murder room and realized that Lumumba was not the rapist and not the murderer. That is what a true "Sherlock Holmes" would have done. But Mignini was lazy, unscientific, hapless and biased as leader of the investigation, so he did not follow rational and legal procedures.


Oh I'd suggest that Mignini was more than "lazy, unscientific, hapless and biased" (though he was all of those things as well....).

I think Mignini was desperate not just to "solve" this case, but also to be seen to be "solving" this case. And I think that this was borne of two things: his egotism/narcissism, and his perceived need to prove his professional competence - and I think both of these factors were further magnified by the fact that this was a murder with international media exposure.
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Old 17th February 2020, 04:18 PM   #1415
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh I'd suggest that Mignini was more than "lazy, unscientific, hapless and biased" (though he was all of those things as well....).

I think Mignini was desperate not just to "solve" this case, but also to be seen to be "solving" this case. And I think that this was borne of two things: his egotism/narcissism, and his perceived need to prove his professional competence - and I think both of these factors were further magnified by the fact that this was a murder with international media exposure.
I agree with your statements. Mignini also suffered from misperceptions or delusions as part of his narcissism: he perceived himself to be a great investigator, a "Sherlock Holmes" when he was more a dangerous and unfunny version of "Inspector Clouseau".
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Old 17th February 2020, 05:07 PM   #1416
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh I'd suggest that Mignini was more than "lazy, unscientific, hapless and biased" (though he was all of those things as well....).

I think Mignini was desperate not just to "solve" this case, but also to be seen to be "solving" this case. And I think that this was borne of two things: his egotism/narcissism, and his perceived need to prove his professional competence - and I think both of these factors were further magnified by the fact that this was a murder with international media exposure.
Don't forget that year before the murder, Mignini had been charged with several crimes including abuse of office including illegal wiretapping. The trial took place at the end of 2009...during the same time Amanda's first trial was being held. In fact, Mignini's case was ongoing during all the trials of Amanda due to appeals, etc. It wasn't until 2016 that it was finally concluded with a combination of acquittals and dropped charges due to the statutes of limitation running out.
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Old 17th February 2020, 05:13 PM   #1417
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I agree with your statements. Mignini also suffered from misperceptions or delusions as part of his narcissism: he perceived himself to be a great investigator, a "Sherlock Holmes" when he was more a dangerous and unfunny version of "Inspector Clouseau".

I think a lot of this is probably tied closely to the way in which many (or even most) criminal investigations appear to have been conducted in Italy in 2007. Despite legislation to replace the grossly-imperfect inquisitorial system with the much more just (but still not perfect - no judicial system can ever be perfect) adversarial system, the core of many prosecutions and convictions appears still to have been the confession (or "confession").

And IMO this introduced an element of circular logic and consequent improper affirmation. It went like this: the PM (with some input from senior police) would assess the crime and come to a conclusion as to who had committed it. That person would then be brought in for a *ahem* "chat", the end result of which would be, likely as not, a confession from that person. Now, much of the time the confession would be genuine and true (even if the methods used to obtain it might not have been proper). But at least some of the time, the confession would be false (usually as a result of improper coercive interrogation techniques having been used). And either way, it's likely that there would have been a low proportion of cases where this "method" resulted in no confession.

So the PM could - if he/she were prone to tendencies of narcissism and arrogance - start to believe deeply that he/she really did have incresible powers of intuition: "I concluded very early on that this person was the one who committed the crime; the person subsequently confessed to the crime; I was right." And of course we know from bitter experience that (up to 2009 at least....) Italian courts still amazingly tended to treat confessions as cast-iron evidence of guilt: "Why would the person confess to the crime if that person hadn't actually committed the crime?" So, almost inevitably in most such cases, convictions duly followed. Which, of course, would only serve to magnify the PM's opinion of his/her own powers of intuition.......
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Old 17th February 2020, 05:23 PM   #1418
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Don't forget that year before the murder, Mignini had been charged with several crimes including abuse of office including illegal wiretapping. The trial took place at the end of 2009...during the same time Amanda's first trial was being held. In fact, Mignini's case was ongoing during all the trials of Amanda due to appeals, etc. It wasn't until 2016 that it was finally concluded with a combination of acquittals and dropped charges due to the statutes of limitation running out.

Yes indeed. I had thought about expanding my post to include Mignini's own personal professional precipice (extra marks for alliteration?), which - as you say - very probably also played a part here.

And the other factor which has been discussed here before, and which I think may well have also played a role, is the abject failure of the Perugia police and PM's department in their investigation of a fairly similar murder case some 12 months previously: their incompetent approach to the investigation had meant that the very likely suspect (the ex-partner of the female victim) could never be charged or tried. IIRC, that case had had regional repurcussions, and it cannot have failed to dent the reputation of the Perugia PM's department (can't recall whether it was the State Police or Carabinieri who were the police force on the case). So when a similar crime took place in November 2007, it's reasonable to suggest that the Perugia PMs department had additional impetus to appear to be competent and swift in their investigation and identification of suspect(s).....


(In passing, and in reference to your post, it's of course interesting to try to figure out how those charges against Mignini were effectively "disappeared".... And actually that's another factor in the mix: when PMs such as Mignini felt - probably with justification and with the benefit of experience - that they were effectively unaccountable for their actions, this could only have served to further inflate egos and feelings of power.)
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Old 17th February 2020, 05:49 PM   #1419
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LJ, I agree; confessions are given extreme weight among juries. It's been found that they are often regarded as more important than the actual evidence even if that evidence is contradictory to the confession.

Quote:
The single most impactful piece of evidence in a criminal case is a suspect's confession, which can affect a case to such an extent that other contradictory evidence cannot overcome a confession, even a false one.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/....1002/bsl.2398

Quote:
A nascent body of scholarship, driven in part by an escalating number of wrongful convictions in cases with false confessions, has begun to document just how persuasive confessions can be.
Quote:
Several studies, using mock jurors and sophisticated analysis, have demonstrated that confessions outweigh the value of eyewitness and character testimony. And in at least one case, according to a 2010 study, prosecutors chose to believe a confession even when the accused seemed categorically cleared by DNA evidence.
https://www.propublica.org/article/t...sions-is-great
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Old 17th February 2020, 11:04 PM   #1420
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes indeed. I had thought about expanding my post to include Mignini's own personal professional precipice (extra marks for alliteration?), which - as you say - very probably also played a part here.

And the other factor which has been discussed here before, and which I think may well have also played a role, is the abject failure of the Perugia police and PM's department in their investigation of a fairly similar murder case some 12 months previously: their incompetent approach to the investigation had meant that the very likely suspect (the ex-partner of the female victim) could never be charged or tried. IIRC, that case had had regional repurcussions, and it cannot have failed to dent the reputation of the Perugia PM's department (can't recall whether it was the State Police or Carabinieri who were the police force on the case). So when a similar crime took place in November 2007, it's reasonable to suggest that the Perugia PMs department had additional impetus to appear to be competent and swift in their investigation and identification of suspect(s).....


(In passing, and in reference to your post, it's of course interesting to try to figure out how those charges against Mignini were effectively "disappeared".... And actually that's another factor in the mix: when PMs such as Mignini felt - probably with justification and with the benefit of experience - that they were effectively unaccountable for their actions, this could only have served to further inflate egos and feelings of power.)
Wouldn't it be easier to just say he's an idiot? OK, just kidding. I don't actually think that...

...but I do agree with much of what you and Stacy have said. But with all that said, I still believe if Mignini had not rushed to hold that now infamous press conference and announced "case closed", and instead waited for the forensic results to come back, then Amanda and Raffaele would never have been charged. For all the reasons noted above, there was no way Mignini was going to issue a mea culpa over arresting three innocent people while the guilty guy had skipped country. Much easier to just swap Guede for Lumumba, blame Amanda for that mistake, and then prosecute them.

I even think Mignini admitted this, albeit unintentionally, when he said (paraphrasing) "if they are in fact innocent then I hope they can recover from this and get on with their lives". NO prosecutor, if they are convinced of the guilt of the accused, would ever say such a think. Freudian slip because he knows they're innocent.
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:25 AM   #1421
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Wouldn't it be easier to just say he's an idiot? OK, just kidding. I don't actually think that...

...but I do agree with much of what you and Stacy have said. But with all that said, I still believe if Mignini had not rushed to hold that now infamous press conference and announced "case closed", and instead waited for the forensic results to come back, then Amanda and Raffaele would never have been charged. For all the reasons noted above, there was no way Mignini was going to issue a mea culpa over arresting three innocent people while the guilty guy had skipped country. Much easier to just swap Guede for Lumumba, blame Amanda for that mistake, and then prosecute them.

I even think Mignini admitted this, albeit unintentionally, when he said (paraphrasing) "if they are in fact innocent then I hope they can recover from this and get on with their lives". NO prosecutor, if they are convinced of the guilt of the accused, would ever say such a think. Freudian slip because he knows they're innocent.
It wasn't Mignini who held the infamous "caso chiuso" announcement. That was Chief of Police De Felice. Whether or not Mignini even knew about it beforehand or if he did and approved of it, I've don't know.

I'm not so sure that the pair would never have been charged even if Mignini had waited for the forensic results. Remember that the police incorrectly identified Guede's bloody shoe prints as Raff's and the mixed DNA in the bathroom and Filomena's room might still have convinced him they were involved. Even some supposedly intelligent and informed about the case people still have difficulty understanding the concept of innocently pre-deposited DNA being wiped up along with later DNA/blood.
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Old 18th February 2020, 03:32 AM   #1422
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It wasn't Mignini who held the infamous "caso chiuso" announcement. That was Chief of Police De Felice. Whether or not Mignini even knew about it beforehand or if he did and approved of it, I've don't know.

I'm not so sure that the pair would never have been charged even if Mignini had waited for the forensic results. Remember that the police incorrectly identified Guede's bloody shoe prints as Raff's and the mixed DNA in the bathroom and Filomena's room might still have convinced him they were involved. Even some supposedly intelligent and informed about the case people still have difficulty understanding the concept of innocently pre-deposited DNA being wiped up along with later DNA/blood.


Agree to all of your second para. And what's more, I just don't think that the likes of Mignini (and possibly also the police) saw forensic evidence as much more than "additional proof". I think that, to them, the confession (or "confession"....) was all, and that it had ever been thus.

I'd be very surprised if Mignini was not aware beforehand of what was going to take place in that triumphalist press conference on 6 November. Actually, I'd be surprised if he hadn't actively condoned it, and maybe even helped to plan it. After all, he was the titular head of the investigation. And I think that both he and the police had conclusively convinced themselves that he/they had "solved" this case - the "buckling" of Knox and Sollecito had proved their involvement, after all. Mignini could congratulate himself on his Holmes-esque intuition in figuring out the case. Knox and Sollecity were safely in custody. Lumumba had been very visibly (and brutally) brought in. The forensics were nothing more than a bit of confirmatory housekeeping. Caso chiuso indeed....
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Old 18th February 2020, 11:01 AM   #1423
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Agree to all of your second para. And what's more, I just don't think that the likes of Mignini (and possibly also the police) saw forensic evidence as much more than "additional proof". I think that, to them, the confession (or "confession"....) was all, and that it had ever been thus.

I'd be very surprised if Mignini was not aware beforehand of what was going to take place in that triumphalist press conference on 6 November. Actually, I'd be surprised if he hadn't actively condoned it, and maybe even helped to plan it. After all, he was the titular head of the investigation. And I think that both he and the police had conclusively convinced themselves that he/they had "solved" this case - the "buckling" of Knox and Sollecito had proved their involvement, after all. Mignini could congratulate himself on his Holmes-esque intuition in figuring out the case. Knox and Sollecity were safely in custody. Lumumba had been very visibly (and brutally) brought in. The forensics were nothing more than a bit of confirmatory housekeeping. Caso chiuso indeed....
If I had to place my bet on whether Mignini knew about the announcement, I'd place it on 'yes'. Not only knew about it, but approved it. But, I felt it was necessary to point out that the claim that it was Mignini who rushed to hold the infamous press conference is not a proven fact. We just don't know.
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Old 18th February 2020, 11:34 AM   #1424
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If I had to place my bet on whether Mignini knew about the announcement, I'd place it on 'yes'. Not only knew about it, but approved it. But, I felt it was necessary to point out that the claim that it was Mignini who rushed to hold the infamous press conference is not a proven fact. We just don't know.
I agree. What is relevant for today is that it is Mignini who's the only one of that original bunch who's gone public with the view that Marasa-Bruno's 2015 exonerations were "bent". The piece Mignini wrote against Maori, where Mignini claimed defamation against him, was a blueprint for what the remaining guilter-nutters claim.

Everyone else has headed for the hills. No one is clamouring, not since 2015 anyway, that the case against AK and RS in 2007-2009 was solid. They've moved on. Probably at family gatherings they claim that their dietrology is correct... but none of them are sticking their heads out in public.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:04 PM   #1425
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
I agree. What is relevant for today is that it is Mignini who's the only one of that original bunch who's gone public with the view that Marasa-Bruno's 2015 exonerations were "bent". The piece Mignini wrote against Maori, where Mignini claimed defamation against him, was a blueprint for what the remaining guilter-nutters claim.

Everyone else has headed for the hills. No one is clamouring, not since 2015 anyway, that the case against AK and RS in 2007-2009 was solid. They've moved on. Probably at family gatherings they claim that their dietrology is correct... but none of them are sticking their heads out in public.
Mignini is known for two things: the Monster of Florence case and the Kercher case. He failed at both and that will be what he's remembered for. He knows that.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:45 PM   #1426
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Mignini is known for two things: the Monster of Florence case and the Kercher case. He failed at both and that will be what he's remembered for. He knows that.


Quite. Of course, we will almost certainly never know what was going in inside Mignini's mind. But I'd say it's far from unlikely that his actions in the Kercher case investigation were a form of doubling-down in an attempt to restore his reputation after the MoF fiasco. And as we know well from certain posts within this very thread, doubling down is an emotion-based high-risk bet.... which backfires more often than not.
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:30 PM   #1427
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Quite. Of course, we will almost certainly never know what was going in inside Mignini's mind. But I'd say it's far from unlikely that his actions in the Kercher case investigation were a form of doubling-down in an attempt to restore his reputation after the MoF fiasco. And as we know well from certain posts within this very thread, doubling down is an emotion-based high-risk bet.... which backfires more often than not.
Agreed.
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Old 18th February 2020, 05:18 PM   #1428
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Mignini is known for two things: the Monster of Florence case and the Kercher case. He failed at both and that will be what he's remembered for. He knows that.
I actually think he believes he was right about both cases. I don't think he's big on self awareness. In his mind his only failure would be to convict those he knows to be guilty.

Last edited by whoanellie; 18th February 2020 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 18th February 2020, 05:42 PM   #1429
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
I actually think he believes he was right about both cases. I don't think he's big on self awareness. In his mind his only failure would be to convict those he knows to be guilty.
There is no doubt that he thinks he was right in both cases. There's more than just a touch of paranoia and narcissism in Perugia's very own 'Sherlock Holmes'.

Quote:
Just before the final summing up in the Knox appeal began, Mignini discussed his handling of an older case, the "Monster of Florence" serial killer, and his belief that his investigation of the 1985 death of a freemason, Francesco Narducci, that he linked to the case was mysteriously blocked.

"I have felt under attack ever since I investigated Narducci," he told the Guardian. "It all started there."

Mignini has claimed Douglas Preston, the US novelist who challenged Mignini's theories about the Monster of Florence, is masterminding a US press campaign against him over his handling of the Knox case. "It's all Preston," he said.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tor-conspiracy
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Old 18th February 2020, 06:31 PM   #1430
TruthCalls
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If I had to place my bet on whether Mignini knew about the announcement, I'd place it on 'yes'. Not only knew about it, but approved it. But, I felt it was necessary to point out that the claim that it was Mignini who rushed to hold the infamous press conference is not a proven fact. We just don't know.
I suppose I was being rather loose in my comments. I didn't mean to suggest the press conference was Mignini's idea. Indeed, I've always considered the press conference to be a combined effort, with no thought as to who the driving force was.

My point was more along the lines of; once the press conference happened, there was no going back. I agree that perhaps there was no going back before that, and perhaps I'm giving Mignini too much credit, but I think if the press conference hadn't happened, and the forensic results came in prior to the interrogation and subsequent arrests, then things might have gone very differently.

And as I noted before, I'm not even sure I agree that he honestly thinks he's right about this case. If he were he would never have made the comment about "if they are innocent...". I think the press conference locked him in, and he's dug in ever since.

JMHO
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Old 18th February 2020, 06:51 PM   #1431
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
I suppose I was being rather loose in my comments. I didn't mean to suggest the press conference was Mignini's idea. Indeed, I've always considered the press conference to be a combined effort, with no thought as to who the driving force was.

My point was more along the lines of; once the press conference happened, there was no going back. I agree that perhaps there was no going back before that, and perhaps I'm giving Mignini too much credit, but I think if the press conference hadn't happened, and the forensic results came in prior to the interrogation and subsequent arrests, then things might have gone very differently.

And as I noted before, I'm not even sure I agree that he honestly thinks he's right about this case. If he were he would never have made the comment about "if they are innocent...". I think the press conference locked him in, and he's dug in ever since.

JMHO
I agree that declaring caso chiuso made it very difficult for the police and Mignini to backtrack even if they had wanted to. As we know, saving face in Italy is very important. The Monster case had already shown that Mignini has a very difficult time admitting he is wrong.
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Old 19th February 2020, 11:21 AM   #1432
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Mignini is known for two things: the Monster of Florence case and the Kercher case. He failed at both and that will be what he's remembered for. He knows that.
I'm not sure if he'll be seen as a failure on his own territory. Remember this from YouTube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbOjYpH1WdM&t=2934s
I've argued with Rag on YouTube that there is a difference between judicial facts and actual facts in the case. I think public facts should come into the equation. There were some whopping great lies on this video that went unfiltered into the public's bloodstream. I'm pretty certain that there are no shortage of people willing to shake his hand simply because they don't know any better.

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Old 19th February 2020, 11:33 AM   #1433
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Originally Posted by TomG View Post
I'm not sure if he'll be seen as a failure on his own territory. Remember this from YouTube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbOjYpH1WdM&t=2934s
I've argued with Rag on YouTube that there is a difference between judicial facts and actual facts in the case. I think public facts should come into the equation. There were some whopping great lies on this video that went unfiltered into the public's bloodstream. I'm pretty certain that there are no shortage of people willing to shake his hand simply because they don't know any better.

Hoots
I didn't mean to say he'd be seen as a failure, but that he would be known for the Monster and Kercher cases which are, beyond doubt, his two most famous cases. Whether someone agrees with the AK and RS acquittals, the facts are they were acquitted and the Monster was never brought to trial despite Mignini's best attempts otherwise.
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:17 PM   #1434
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I didn't mean to say he'd be seen as a failure, but that he would be known for the Monster and Kercher cases which are, beyond doubt, his two most famous cases. Whether someone agrees with the AK and RS acquittals, the facts are they were acquitted and the Monster was never brought to trial despite Mignini's best attempts otherwise.
..... and the guilter-nutters do nothing but laud the guy, saying he's worthy of respect because of his office.

And every person, scientist, lawyer, FBI guy, judge or innocence Project guru is bent and only in it for the money. Or in the pocket of Masons and/or the Mafia.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.

Last edited by Bill Williams; 19th February 2020 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 20th February 2020, 01:07 PM   #1435
Methos
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The predictions I remember were about how Knox was a psychopath and that the streets of Seattle would be running red with blood and how she would be hanging out in some crack joint turning tricks. Those of a scientific mind know that if you make a prediction and it fails then you should review your hypothesis, still waiting for the 'perhaps we were wrong and she's not a psychopath' admission.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Citation, please.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Just two from that record
Grahame Rhodes on 05/16/15 at 04:22 PM
Quote:
It’s not just that, it’s also the inability to feel guilt, at least on the surface. But the mind is a wonderful thing because psychologically this denial of responsibility produces great unsuspected anger which sooner or later will explode.

As every psychologist knows, this is basic to denial of responsibility in everyone, and is also Knox future for her mind is a pressure cooker and eventually it will only take some little unsuspected event to tip the scales.

The person she will harm will be someone close to her for in that relationship is the key. The closer the person is the better to see through the disguise that Knox has built. Therefore the fear of exposure will be greater. This of course was Meredith because Knox instinctively knew that Mez could see through her little game and therefore Mez became a threat. That is apart from the jealousy of course because Mez was so much better than Knox could ever hope to be in every way. Knox even lost her job to Mez. You can see the pattern develop.

She will of course harm again. If you see the clip of her singing, the edge of hysteria, the edge of madness is already paramount.

Check it for yourself from this standpoint. The rot has already set in and I predict that as soon as her Grandmother Elizabeth Huff dies then that will be the tipping point because her Grandmother has always been her soft place to fall when things got tough.

Without her Grandmother she is further adrift because above all she has lost (If she ever had) her self respect.

I have known men who told me that they “Knew their wife’s better than any person alive or dead.” That may be so, but without exception they do not know how women’s minds work in relation to self respect. When a woman goes against the mores and morals of the society in which she grows up then she irrevocably loses her self respect which she will never be able to get back. This works differently for men and woman of course hence the confusion. Knox supporters do not see Knox as a person but rather an icon and this is Knox stock in trade and why it is unsustainable. She knows this as well and the knowledge will eat away at her and as you pointed out is well on it’s way. For Knox there is no escape.
Posted by Johnny Yen on 05/16/15 at 06:21 PM
Quote:
Amanda Knox is an infamous convicted felon and suspected murderer with no future hope of getting and keeping gainful employment whatsoever. She knows that and she is either broke now or going broke very quickly. Most likely, this zombie attack karaoke video was made by MadPax or someone else close to her and then sold to TMZ for some quick cash. But that won’t last long. So this is just her first act of making herself a public spectacle in the US. After her singing gets old (it already sucks), TMZ won’t buy those videos anymore. So she’ll resort to something else like dancing on a pole etc. Then she’ll further descend into the world of stripping, prostitution and adult videos. But, of course, that won’t last very long. So then she’ll be in a very difficult economic situation by the time she approaches 35-40. Then, or maybe even before then, she’ll have no other choice but to return to a life of crime and imprisonment. It’s all just a matter of time.
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Old 20th February 2020, 01:08 PM   #1436
Welshman
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
..... and the guilter-nutters do nothing but laud the guy, saying he's worthy of respect because of his office.

And every person, scientist, lawyer, FBI guy, judge or innocence Project guru is bent and only in it for the money. Or in the pocket of Masons and/or the Mafia.
Guilters [SNIP] and other members of the TJMK/PMF hate sites have a blind obedience towards people in authority. In their view police/prosecutors are always honest, ethical, hard working and competent. Police/prosecution corruption and misconduct never happens and police/prosecutors would never railroad innocent people. Police/prosecutors are never incompetent. Police/prosecutors must never be criticised. The police/prosecution always have solid evidence and a slam dunk case against defendants. [SNIP] guilters will always defend police/prosecutors such as Mignini regardless of their actions.

A consequence of this belief is that [SNIP] guilters will ignore facts which don’t fit their view :-

• As can be seen from the links below, numerous abuses were committed by the police/prosecution in the case of Amanda and Raffaele. The rights of Amanda and Raffaele were violated during the interrogations, numerous Italian laws were broken, false information was fed to the media, the prosecution engaged in the massive suppression of evidence, destroyed evidence and committed perjury. [SNIP]guilters are so fixed in the view police/prosecutors never commit wrongdoing, they refuse to acknowledge the numerous abuses committed by the prosecution and will never accept police/prosecutors can do anything wrong.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contam...bwork-coverup/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredi...ry-corruption/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/evidence-destroyed/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-...irs-apartment/
https://knoxsollecito.wordpress.com/...ele-sollecito/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post11071314

[SNIP]guilters are so fixed in the belief, police/prosecutors are never incompetent, they refuse to acknowledge the badly handled crime scene. The book Injustice in Perugia was able to devote a whole chapter on how badly the police managed the crime scene.

[SNIP]guilters are so fixed in the idea police/prosecutors would never railroad innocent people, they refuse to accept the police/prosecution railroaded Amanda and Raffaele when the numerous abuses committed by the police/prosecution makes it blatantly obvious Amanda and Raffaele were railroaded.

[SNIP]guilters slavishly defending the police/prosecution in the case of Amanda and Raffaele regardless of their actions leads to industrial scale hypocrisy where guilters attack people for doing something but have no problem when the police/prosecution do it :-

[SNIP]guilters attacks Hellman, C&V and the supreme court for being corrupt whilst slavishly defending corrupt prosecutors who committed numerous abuses.

[SNIP]guilters attacks Amanda and Raffaele for telling numerous lies whilst slavishly defending corrupt police/prosecutors who told numerous lies.

[SNIP]guilters attacks the supreme court of supposedly breaking Italian law but had no problem with the police breaking numerous Italian laws during the interrogations.

[SNIP]guilters attacks Amanda for falsely accusing Lumumba but had no problem with the brutal treatment Lumumba received at the hands of the police and the police arresting Lumumba with no investigation.

[SNIP]guilters attacks C&V for withholding evidence but had no problem with Vixen’s idol Stefanoni withholding evidence.

[SNIP]guilters attacked Amanda and Raffaele for lying in court but had no issue with the prosecution lying and committing perjury in court.

Edited by kmortis:  Edited to comply with Rule 12

Last edited by kmortis; 2nd March 2020 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:43 PM   #1437
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
Guilters [SNIP] and other members of the TJMK/PMF hate sites have a blind obedience towards people in authority. In their view police/prosecutors are always honest, ethical, hard working and competent. Police/prosecution corruption and misconduct never happens and police/prosecutors would never railroad innocent people. Police/prosecutors are never incompetent. Police/prosecutors must never be criticised. The police/prosecution always have solid evidence and a slam dunk case against defendants. [SNIP] guilters will always defend police/prosecutors such as Mignini regardless of their actions.



Edited by kmortis:  Edited to comply with Rule 12


....
An example of the abuse of authority by the police that does happen in Italy, and how the Italian judicial system grants immunity to the police accused of committing such abuses, is given in the ECHR case Cioffi v. Italy 17710/15 Communicated* 21 January 2016, and listed as an important pending case in the current Country Profile for Italy. Since it is a pending case listed in the Country Profile, the ECHR will probably issue a judgment within the coming year (give or take some months).

* http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-160714

Briefly, the facts in Cioffi v. Italy is that there was an "anti-globalization" demonstration during the "Third Global Forum on Reinventing Government" in Naples 15 - 17 March 2001. Hostile demonstrators threw rocks and other objects at police who were charging a group attempting to break through a cordon on 17 March. The police responded with force against the demonstrators (including, apparently, non-violent ones), and many individuals were injured and went to the emergency rooms of local hospitals, from about 12 noon. "At 12.30 p.m. the law-enforcement officers started the process of identifying the individuals in the emergency departments, including both the injured and those who were with them. Following the identification, all police patrols and officers in the hospitals received orders via radio instructing them to transfer the people being treated in the hospital emergency departments to the Virgilio Raniero police station. .... Between 12.30 and 5.30 p.m. eighty-five individuals were taken to the Virgilio Raniero police station. They were released between 7.30 and 8 p.m. that evening." A number of the detained persons, including Cioffi, the applicant in the ECHR case, a trainee lawyer who was at an emergency room accompanying a friend, complained that they had been abused by the police at the police station.

"13. Following a preliminary investigation, thirty-one law-enforcement officers of different ranks were charged with offences in connection with the events of 17 March 2001. These included kidnapping (sequestro di persona) with the aggravating factor that it had been carried out by State officials abusing their powers; unlawful personal searches and inspections (perquisizione e ispezione personali arbitrarie) carried out in a manner offensive to dignity; destruction and damage of property (danneggiamento); abuse of office; forgery committed by State officials in the drafting of public documents (falsità ideologica commessa dal pubblico ufficiale in atti pubblici); criminal coercion (violenza privata) (see paragraph 27 below) and causing bodily harm (lesione personale) with a number of aggravating factors, such as committing the offence while exercising a public function, operating in a number greater than five, taking advantage of the vulnerability of the injured, and using service batons to commit the offence.

14. On 13 July 2004 they were committed to the Naples District Court for trial. The applicant joined the proceedings as a civil party alongside nineteen other individuals.

15. The Naples District Court’s judgment was issued on 23 January 2010."

The first-instance judgment was not issued until about 5 1/2 years after the trial began, and the trial didn't begin until about 3 1/3 years after the alleged offenses occurred. The long period before judgment resulted in the dismissal of most of the charges because of the statute of limitations.

"16. With respect to the offences of aggravated bodily harm, criminal coercion, unlawful personal searches and inspections and destruction of property, the court decided that the proceedings had to be discontinued because the applicable statutory limitation periods had expired.

As the prosecution of these offences was time-barred, the court provided only a general overview of the facts it considered to be established in connection with the offences under scrutiny, and of the “egregious conduct” (gravissime condotte) of the law-enforcement officers at the Virgilio Raniero police station to the detriment of individuals in their custody, which included the applicant .... The court found that the evidence gathered during the investigation and produced at trial demonstrated that the events had occurred in the manner described by the victims and that it allowed for a reconstruction of the facts with sufficient clarity .... In particular, the court found it established that upon their arrival at the police station, the individuals taken into custody had been made to walk through a hallway surrounded by law-enforcement officers who took turns slapping, kicking, tripping, spitting on and verbally abusing them; that they were forced to kneel with their hands behind their heads and remain in an uncomfortable position, even those who were visibly injured or disabled; that they had to undergo searches while standing naked and barefoot on a floor covered in blood and urine, for a time exceeding that required for searches, while simultaneously undergoing physical and verbal abuse; that they had to remain silent at all times and were not allowed to communicate with their lawyers, some of whom had shown up at the police station, or inform their family members of their being taken into custody; that they were not allowed to use mobile or public telephones in order to communicate their whereabouts, with mobile telephones being seized and in certain cases damaged; that they were beaten and subjected to various form of physical abuse; that they were subjected to threats as well as verbal abuse about their sexual, religious and political preferences .... In the court’s view, this information could clearly have fallen under the scope of the offences the officers had been charged with, had an examination on the merits not been precluded by the expiry of the statutory limitation period ...."

With specific regard to the applicant, it emerged in the proceedings that he was subjected to several beatings. It further emerged that he was forced to kneel on the floor with his face to the wall and his hands behind his head while waiting to be searched, alongside other individuals who had been taken into custody. The court found that this treatment persisted notwithstanding repeated requests by the victims to know why they were being detained, as well as requests to contact lawyers and family members. He was not allowed to use a telephone in order to communicate his whereabouts and his mobile phone was damaged.

When the applicant identified himself as a trainee lawyer and asked the officers to explain why he was being detained, given that he had not been formally arrested or stopped and had already been identified at the hospital, he was subjected to further physical abuse, which the court described as “very violent treatment”, as well as verbal abuse .... The court also considered that the applicant had become a “designated target” for the law-enforcement officers, who deliberately attempted to instill fear in him by threatening him, stating that they knew where he lived and could get to him at any moment.... {Page references to the motivation report omitted.}

Ten officers were convicted by the first-instance court of kidnapping. However, because of the length of the appeal trial, the charges against them also were eventually dismissed as time-barred by the statute of limitations. Two officers were convicted of criminal coercion, but their sentences were reduced to 10 and 6 months, respectively, and then suspended, and the court ordered that their convictions should not appear on their criminal record.

"COMPLAINTS {of the applicant to the ECHR}

Relying on Articles 3, 5, 6, and 13 of the Convention the applicant complains that:

1. he was subjected to ill-treatment while in police custody at the Virgilio Raniero police station;

2. he was unlawfully arrested and detained, was not brought before a judicial authority, did not have the possibility of informing a family member about his detention and was not given access to a lawyer;

3. the national courts’ failure to conduct the proceedings against the law-enforcement officers in a timely manner resulted in the discontinuation of the proceedings because of the expiry of the statutory limitation periods, which in turn allowed for serious offences against him to go unpunished; and

4. while his right to obtain compensation at the domestic level was recognised by the domestic courts, he was not awarded provisional damages and is required to apply to the civil courts for quantification."

Last edited by kmortis; 2nd March 2020 at 06:00 AM. Reason: Removed previously moderated content
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:45 PM   #1438
Stacyhs
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Welshman, could you please stop c & p'ing that? We've all seen it a hundred times.
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:55 PM   #1439
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
I remember all the predictions from the PGP that Knox would kill again. They were as correct about that as their other predictions.

I ran across these gems from Slick Pete:

Quote:
How dangerous is Knox? Our psychologists generally think that, untreated, she is not good news. Not a latent serial killer, or one who sits around and plots, but one who could again explosively hit back when she imagines or exaggerates slights.
LOL! Their psychologists? He must be referring to Miss Represented who turned out to not to be a psychologist or any medical/mental health professional at all. She worked in social media.
Quote:
Knox was mentally tested in Capanne Prison and apparently scored high on the psychopathic chart. The three courts hardest on Knox all knew this - the Matteini court, Cassation, and the Nencini court - which was a major reason why Cassation did not allow bail in April 2008.
Of course, there is no evidence of this at all. But when has that ever stopped Slick Pete?

Quote:
Left untreated and unpunished, a convicted but not extradited Knox would be a killer walking loose on American streets and could continue to condone or incite violence for the rest of her life.
Peter Quennell, December 18, 2014

Lesseee...she's been walking American streets for 9 years now and, AFAIK, she hasn't killed anyone, or condoned or incited any violence. Maybe Pete knows better.
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Old 20th February 2020, 07:29 PM   #1440
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Welshman, could you please stop c & p'ing that? We've all seen it a hundred times.
I kind of like it. It's the other side of the same thing done by a certain PGP poster here who recycles all the old tropes of guilt, that first cycled back in 2008 or 2009.

That's what this thread has been about since the exonerations in any event. Welshman is simply repeating the sheer volume of mistruths, untruths, and outright.... of the PIP since the beginning.
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Last edited by Bill Williams; 20th February 2020 at 07:46 PM.
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