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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 20th February 2020, 08:20 PM   #1441
bagels
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The reason I think Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher is because of his numerous bloody shoeprints surrounding her body, his bloody palm print next to her body, his DNA on her purse from which several items were stolen, with those items turning up near a back route to his apartment, his DNA in her genitals with evidence of a sexual assault, and his confession to his friend that he met Meredith alone at the apartment and saw so much blood as she died alone with him, CCTV footage of a figure seen approaching the cottage consistent with his appearance, combined with his criminal history of break-ins and anti-social behavior. I also am aware of witness statements by an alleged burglary victim claiming Rudy once pulled a knife aggressively on him during a break-in which paints a further disturbing picture of this violent convicted murderer's behavior.

The reason I don't think Amanda Knox murdered Meredith Kercher is because one, as I stated earlier, I think Meredith was clearly murdered by Rudy Guede, and two, the evidence presented against her is, for example, that her own DNA was found in her own sink. If the police scrubbed my sink I use every day I am fairly confident they too would find my DNA in it, so it seems hardly criminal and not suggestive of criminal activity.

Some people were not convinced and disagree, but my guess is they are stupid and not smart.
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:25 PM   #1442
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
I kind of like it. It's the other side of the same thing done by a certain PGP poster here who recycles all the old tropes of guilt, that first cycled back in 2008 or 2009.

That's what this thread has been about since the exonerations in any event. Welshman is simply repeating the sheer volume of mistruths, untruths, and outright.... of the PIP since the beginning.
True. Repeats, repeats, repeats, repeats, and repeats.
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:40 PM   #1443
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
The reason I think Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher is because of his numerous bloody shoeprints surrounding her body, his bloody palm print next to her body, his DNA on her purse from which several items were stolen, with those items turning up near a back route to his apartment, his DNA in her genitals with evidence of a sexual assault, and his confession to his friend that he met Meredith alone at the apartment and saw so much blood as she died alone with him, CCTV footage of a figure seen approaching the cottage consistent with his appearance, combined with his criminal history of break-ins and anti-social behavior. I also am aware of witness statements by an alleged burglary victim claiming Rudy once pulled a knife aggressively on him during a break-in which paints a further disturbing picture of this violent convicted murderer's behavior.

The reason I don't think Amanda Knox murdered Meredith Kercher is because one, as I stated earlier, I think Meredith was clearly murdered by Rudy Guede, and two, the evidence presented against her is, for example, that her own DNA was found in her own sink. If the police scrubbed my sink I use every day I am fairly confident they too would find my DNA in it, so it seems hardly criminal and not suggestive of criminal activity.

Some people were not convinced and disagree, but my guess is they are stupid and not smart.
Not only did Tramontano say Guede broke into his house, threatened him with a knife, stole money and credit cards, his girlfriend was present at the time. He also identified Guede as the thief BEFORE the murder when he threw him out of Domus.

As for your sink, are you saying you're a slob and don't clean your sink with bleach after each use?
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Old 20th February 2020, 08:57 PM   #1444
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
As for your sink, are you saying you're a slob
Yes
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Old 21st February 2020, 10:18 AM   #1445
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
True. Repeats, repeats, repeats, repeats, and repeats.
This is a monster thread. Thirty continuations. Based on a completely out-of-the-blue conversation I had a week ago, someone new to all this stumbled upon TJMK and this thread.

Both "resources" are huge. If Weshman did not periodically list the guilter lies (within the eyesight of someone just coming up to speed), proven lies, that guy would probably have adopted a Nadeau-esque, "Knox isn't telling us everything" stand, meant to cloud the obviousness of innocence.

Not that it would have mattered, not really. We're almost 5 years post-exoneration. Taking ECHR into account, a full exoneration.

Welshman may be annoying (Welshman: "I'm standing right here you know!") but when a newbie comes by, his list will be lost in the Acres of other posts.

As an aside, my guy had, at random ran across Quennell's 2011 post acquittal prediction that psychopath Knox loose in Seattle would unleash a series of unsolved homicides in King County. Granted, the last decade in Seattle has seen a large spike in Mafia inspired, Masonic funded crime..... but my guy compared that lunacy over at TJMK with more subdued commitments to facts and data here.

It's no contest. Welshman: keep cutting and pasting dude. Or not.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.

Last edited by Bill Williams; 21st February 2020 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 11:23 AM   #1446
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
This is a monster thread. Thirty continuations. Based on a completely out-of-the-blue conversation I had a week ago, someone new to all this stumbled upon TJMK and this thread.

Both "resources" are huge. If Weshman did not periodically list the guilter lies (within the eyesight of someone just coming up to speed), proven lies, that guy would probably have adopted a Nadeau-esque, "Knox isn't telling us everything" stand, meant to cloud the obviousness of innocence.

Not that it would have mattered, not really. We're almost 5 years post-exoneration. Taking ECHR into account, a full exoneration.

Welshman may be annoying (Welshman: "I'm standing right here you know!") but when a newbie comes by, his list will be lost in the Acres of other posts.

As an aside, my guy had, at random ran across Quennell's 2011 post acquittal prediction that psychopath Knox loose in Seattle would unleash a series of unsolved homicides in King County. Granted, the last decade in Seattle has seen a large spike in Mafia inspired, Masonic funded crime..... but my guy compared that lunacy over at TJMK with more subdued commitments to facts and data here.

It's no contest. Welshman: keep cutting and pasting dude. Or not.
I understand others feel it is unnecessary to use the same links again. I post these links to rebut the arguments PGP use. For instance, Vixen likes to argue there was a slam dunk case and strong evidence but the tactics the prosecution had to resort destroys this argument. I post the links again as it important to highlight the massive level of misconduct carried out by the prosecution
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Old 21st February 2020, 11:28 AM   #1447
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
This is a monster thread. Thirty continuations. Based on a completely out-of-the-blue conversation I had a week ago, someone new to all this stumbled upon TJMK and this thread.
Completely out of the blue, a buddy and I were talking about lie-detector tests you see in films.

In "The Americans", one of the spies is coached on how to beat a lie detector test. She's told that at one point in the test, the administrator would feign to be having difficulty with one of the questions. Of course, the administrator is faking this difficulty.

He switches off the machine and says to the subject, "There seems to be some confusion here. Can you walk us through that confusion?".

All of this, of course, is meant to get the subject talking. Most people, unfamiliar with the unreliability of the machine/method, start getting nervous. They, then, start yakking and get themselves into trouble - not with what is measured on the machine, but the unintended admissions they make.

The way to beat the test acc. to screen writers on "The Americans"? When the administrator turns off the machine and says, "There seems to be some confusion here. Can you walk us through that confusion?", just say, "No, I don't know what you mean." Every time the administrator tries to trap you into "saying more," just decline.

So, my buddy and I started talking about the way police are free to lie, but a suspect in a crime is not. It was him who then said, "I was reading the other day about a girl in Italy, an American girl, who'd been accused of lying about the murder of her roommate. Because of those lies, she actually had been charged with the crime - but in the end, there had actually been no evidence that she'd ever been involved. I went back and looked at what it was she'd supposedly been accused of lying about."

I did not tell him about me posting here. I just listened to a very reasonable person work it out on his own. He told me about nutcases who were predicting that that girl would go on a crimespree once released.... guess who he'd been reading?

Anyway, we discussed the nature of lies: when things were and when they were not. He concluded that everything he'd first assumed had been lies of that American girl's, were actually skillful interrogation pressures meant to get her to entrap herself, not "lies" at all. It was quite the fascinating conversation!
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Last edited by Bill Williams; 21st February 2020 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 11:33 AM   #1448
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Welshman, I was a bit out of sorts when I posted that. Keep on posting it.
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Old 21st February 2020, 11:36 AM   #1449
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"Anyway, we discuss the nature of lies: when thongs are and when they are not."

????
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:09 PM   #1450
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Someone finally resolved what a thong is?
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:17 PM   #1451
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Originally Posted by StillSleepy View Post
Someone finally resolved what a thong is?
Thing, thing a thong
Make it thimple to last your whole life long
Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear
Just thing, thing a thong...
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:20 PM   #1452
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Quote:
Make it thimple to last your whole life long
Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear
Thomething theemth wrong here....
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:24 PM   #1453
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Thing, thing a thong
Make it thimple to last your whole life long
Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear
Just thing, thing a thong...

In second grade, that was one of the songs my teacher used to have us sing sometimes at the end of the day while we were waiting to be dismissed.
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Old 21st February 2020, 01:29 PM   #1454
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
"Anyway, we discuss the nature of lies: when thongs are and when they are not."

????
You think you are out of sorts!! Turns out I am too.
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Old 21st February 2020, 02:04 PM   #1455
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
You think you are out of sorts!! Turns out I am too.
Your mention of thongs (or whatever it was you meant to write) reminds me of the way Knox's purchase of some underwear after the murder was distorted in the media and by the PGP. According to them, she was out buying ' sexy lingerie' and a 'saucy g-string' at a lingerie store.

Having been to Bubbles, the store she bought her underwear in, it's far from a lingerie store. It's just a normal clothing store that also sells underwear. What I found the most disgusting was how the obvious lies by the store owner were presented as facts by the media.

Quote:
"They came into the shop and were there for about 20 minutes. The girl bought a vest and g-string. I heard her as she was choosing the underwear ...

"As they were ready to pay, in front of the till, she whispered: 'Afterwards I'm going to take you home so we can have wild sex together'."
Quote:
He told the Daily Mail yesterday: "Their behaviour struck me as very odd. They were laughing and joking as they were holding up the underwear and the girl kept saying she was going to wear it before they had sex."
Oh, come on! No one talks like that. Besides, she was on her period at the time. Give me a break.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 06:44 AM   #1456
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, come on! No one talks like that. Besides, she was on her period at the time. Give me a break.
Nothing shows the bald-faced, all out tabloid attack on someone barely out of their teens than this trope of "Knox talking sexy about underwear."

First off, was the shop owner aware that that young women spoke very limited Italian? Can not every native speaker of a language tell immediately if someone is a newby?

But that's not the point is it. The point for the tabloid guilt-PR campaign is, as tabloid hack Nick Pisa observed, is to file your story quickly and with lots of lurid detail, or the reporter misses out on a paycheck.

And..... how many of us have tried out our own limited knowledge of a language, ending up embarrassing ourselves?

Five years post-exoneration by the Italian courts, does anyone seriously believe that that underwear buying trope has anything - at all - to do with the murder......

...... other than as a way to show the mechanics of a wrongful prosecution?
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Old 22nd February 2020, 01:16 PM   #1457
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Nothing shows the bald-faced, all out tabloid attack on someone barely out of their teens than this trope of "Knox talking sexy about underwear."

First off, was the shop owner aware that that young women spoke very limited Italian? Can not every native speaker of a language tell immediately if someone is a newby?

But that's not the point is it. The point for the tabloid guilt-PR campaign is, as tabloid hack Nick Pisa observed, is to file your story quickly and with lots of lurid detail, or the reporter misses out on a paycheck.

And..... how many of us have tried out our own limited knowledge of a language, ending up embarrassing ourselves?

Five years post-exoneration by the Italian courts, does anyone seriously believe that that underwear buying trope has anything - at all - to do with the murder......

...... other than as a way to show the mechanics of a wrongful prosecution?
Quote:
according to a leaked witness statement from a shop owner
Quote:
Further reports, again from leaked police interviews, suggested that a Polish student saw Knox - who is known by friends as Foxy Knoxy - and Sollecito at the Italian's house on the night Miss Kercher was killed.
The Perugia police had more leaks than a rusty pipe. It's pretty obvious these so-called leaks were intentional.

In all the stories about this CCTV footage, this footage is not produced. If it was so damaging to the suspects, why was it never shown in court? Perhaps because it didn't show what the owner claimed it did?

There are a couple pictures of AK and RS in Bubbles, but neither shows Knox 'holding up bras and panties' or exhibiting 'exhibitionist behavior' as the shop owner claims.





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Old 23rd February 2020, 02:15 AM   #1458
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
An example of the abuse of authority by the police that does happen in Italy, and how the Italian judicial system grants immunity to the police accused of committing such abuses, is given in the ECHR case Cioffi v. Italy 17710/15 Communicated* 21 January 2016, and listed as an important pending case in the current Country Profile for Italy. Since it is a pending case listed in the Country Profile, the ECHR will probably issue a judgment within the coming year (give or take some months).

* http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-160714

Briefly, the facts in Cioffi v. Italy is that there was an "anti-globalization" demonstration during the "Third Global Forum on Reinventing Government" in Naples 15 - 17 March 2001. Hostile demonstrators threw rocks and other objects at police who were charging a group attempting to break through a cordon on 17 March. The police responded with force against the demonstrators (including, apparently, non-violent ones), and many individuals were injured and went to the emergency rooms of local hospitals, from about 12 noon. "At 12.30 p.m. the law-enforcement officers started the process of identifying the individuals in the emergency departments, including both the injured and those who were with them. Following the identification, all police patrols and officers in the hospitals received orders via radio instructing them to transfer the people being treated in the hospital emergency departments to the Virgilio Raniero police station. .... Between 12.30 and 5.30 p.m. eighty-five individuals were taken to the Virgilio Raniero police station. They were released between 7.30 and 8 p.m. that evening." A number of the detained persons, including Cioffi, the applicant in the ECHR case, a trainee lawyer who was at an emergency room accompanying a friend, complained that they had been abused by the police at the police station.

"13. Following a preliminary investigation, thirty-one law-enforcement officers of different ranks were charged with offences in connection with the events of 17 March 2001. These included kidnapping (sequestro di persona) with the aggravating factor that it had been carried out by State officials abusing their powers; unlawful personal searches and inspections (perquisizione e ispezione personali arbitrarie) carried out in a manner offensive to dignity; destruction and damage of property (danneggiamento); abuse of office; forgery committed by State officials in the drafting of public documents (falsità ideologica commessa dal pubblico ufficiale in atti pubblici); criminal coercion (violenza privata) (see paragraph 27 below) and causing bodily harm (lesione personale) with a number of aggravating factors, such as committing the offence while exercising a public function, operating in a number greater than five, taking advantage of the vulnerability of the injured, and using service batons to commit the offence.

14. On 13 July 2004 they were committed to the Naples District Court for trial. The applicant joined the proceedings as a civil party alongside nineteen other individuals.

15. The Naples District Court’s judgment was issued on 23 January 2010."

The first-instance judgment was not issued until about 5 1/2 years after the trial began, and the trial didn't begin until about 3 1/3 years after the alleged offenses occurred. The long period before judgment resulted in the dismissal of most of the charges because of the statute of limitations.

"16. With respect to the offences of aggravated bodily harm, criminal coercion, unlawful personal searches and inspections and destruction of property, the court decided that the proceedings had to be discontinued because the applicable statutory limitation periods had expired.

As the prosecution of these offences was time-barred, the court provided only a general overview of the facts it considered to be established in connection with the offences under scrutiny, and of the “egregious conduct” (gravissime condotte) of the law-enforcement officers at the Virgilio Raniero police station to the detriment of individuals in their custody, which included the applicant .... The court found that the evidence gathered during the investigation and produced at trial demonstrated that the events had occurred in the manner described by the victims and that it allowed for a reconstruction of the facts with sufficient clarity .... In particular, the court found it established that upon their arrival at the police station, the individuals taken into custody had been made to walk through a hallway surrounded by law-enforcement officers who took turns slapping, kicking, tripping, spitting on and verbally abusing them; that they were forced to kneel with their hands behind their heads and remain in an uncomfortable position, even those who were visibly injured or disabled; that they had to undergo searches while standing naked and barefoot on a floor covered in blood and urine, for a time exceeding that required for searches, while simultaneously undergoing physical and verbal abuse; that they had to remain silent at all times and were not allowed to communicate with their lawyers, some of whom had shown up at the police station, or inform their family members of their being taken into custody; that they were not allowed to use mobile or public telephones in order to communicate their whereabouts, with mobile telephones being seized and in certain cases damaged; that they were beaten and subjected to various form of physical abuse; that they were subjected to threats as well as verbal abuse about their sexual, religious and political preferences .... In the court’s view, this information could clearly have fallen under the scope of the offences the officers had been charged with, had an examination on the merits not been precluded by the expiry of the statutory limitation period ...."

With specific regard to the applicant, it emerged in the proceedings that he was subjected to several beatings. It further emerged that he was forced to kneel on the floor with his face to the wall and his hands behind his head while waiting to be searched, alongside other individuals who had been taken into custody. The court found that this treatment persisted notwithstanding repeated requests by the victims to know why they were being detained, as well as requests to contact lawyers and family members. He was not allowed to use a telephone in order to communicate his whereabouts and his mobile phone was damaged.

When the applicant identified himself as a trainee lawyer and asked the officers to explain why he was being detained, given that he had not been formally arrested or stopped and had already been identified at the hospital, he was subjected to further physical abuse, which the court described as “very violent treatment”, as well as verbal abuse .... The court also considered that the applicant had become a “designated target” for the law-enforcement officers, who deliberately attempted to instill fear in him by threatening him, stating that they knew where he lived and could get to him at any moment.... {Page references to the motivation report omitted.}

Ten officers were convicted by the first-instance court of kidnapping. However, because of the length of the appeal trial, the charges against them also were eventually dismissed as time-barred by the statute of limitations. Two officers were convicted of criminal coercion, but their sentences were reduced to 10 and 6 months, respectively, and then suspended, and the court ordered that their convictions should not appear on their criminal record.

"COMPLAINTS {of the applicant to the ECHR}

Relying on Articles 3, 5, 6, and 13 of the Convention the applicant complains that:

1. he was subjected to ill-treatment while in police custody at the Virgilio Raniero police station;

2. he was unlawfully arrested and detained, was not brought before a judicial authority, did not have the possibility of informing a family member about his detention and was not given access to a lawyer;

3. the national courts’ failure to conduct the proceedings against the law-enforcement officers in a timely manner resulted in the discontinuation of the proceedings because of the expiry of the statutory limitation periods, which in turn allowed for serious offences against him to go unpunished; and

4. while his right to obtain compensation at the domestic level was recognised by the domestic courts, he was not awarded provisional damages and is required to apply to the civil courts for quantification."
The view of Vixen and other guilters that police/prosecution wrongdoing never happens is a useful fallback position if you are PGP because you can argue along the lines of if police/prosecutors are always honest, ethical and would never dream of railroading innocent people how can wrongful convictions happen. In addition if police/prosecutors are always competent, their findings will always be correct.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 05:46 AM   #1459
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
LOL! That's rich coming right after your claim that Kercher's body wasn't returned to the UK until December!
Pssssssst......she was buried in December. Not the same thing.

By the way, the body was supposed to be returned on Nov. 10, but Lumumba's lawyer requested a second autopsy...which was refused. Rafaelle's lawyers had also requested a second autopsy. That's why there was such a long time between the return of the body and the burial. Do try and keep up.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/nov/11/world.italy

https://books.google.com/books?id=Az...ngland&f=false
The other issue delaying the burial would have been the requirement for a hearing in the coroner's court. This is a requirement for any body in the coroner's jurisdiction that was an 'unnatural' death. The body would have been in the coroner's possession and the coroner would have had to agree to release the body for burial. This would have added a few days between arrival in the UK and burial.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 11:43 AM   #1460
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Numbers, what I found the most interesting in Cioffi v. Italy is just how much the police's crimes were protected. Waiting 9 years from the offense to the start of the trial, which allowed charges to be dropped due to the statutes of limitations, first reducing the sentences of those finally convicted of criminal coercion, then suspending them, then ordering that their convictions not appear in their records is beyond shocking.

The description of the police's violent, degrading and coercive behavior toward the suspects is mild compared to what Knox and Sollecito described but more in line with what Lumumba initially described. Well, until he conveniently changed his story so he could sue not only the police, but Knox too.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 23rd February 2020 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 04:13 PM   #1461
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The Perugia police had more leaks than a rusty pipe. It's pretty obvious these so-called leaks were intentional.

In all the stories about this CCTV footage, this footage is not produced. If it was so damaging to the suspects, why was it never shown in court? Perhaps because it didn't show what the owner claimed it did?

There are a couple pictures of AK and RS in Bubbles, but neither shows Knox 'holding up bras and panties' or exhibiting 'exhibitionist behavior' as the shop owner claims.



Just for the record:

Guess, the above picture shows the much talked about piece of red underwear
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Old 23rd February 2020, 04:27 PM   #1462
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The guilter-PR campaign has officially collapsed into Peter Quennell.

Methos may want to add stuff here, but Pete has just commented on the status of the fake-Wiki, which he calls the MK Wiki. He's revealed that fake-Wiki founder, "Edward McCall" has not be seen since 2017. Pete reveals plans to revitalize it, conceding that there are many errors in it.

But this is where the online "war" is in 2020. Since the exonerations in 2015, two major hate sites have closed, one because its original owner withdrew without providing passwords to the second generation of administrators who needed to fix corrupted files.

Now one of the last remaining of the on-line haters is intent on rescuing the fake-Wiki. Indeed the statement that it needs rescuing says buckets about where this case (in its online version) is.

Who knows.... maybe Pete will rescue the fake-Wiki by making it truly user editable.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 04:58 PM   #1463
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Numbers, what I found the most interesting in Cioffi v. Italy is just how much the police's crimes were protected. Waiting 9 years from the offense to the start of the trial, which allowed charges to be dropped due to the statutes of limitations, first reducing the sentences of those finally convicted of criminal coercion, then suspending them, then ordering that their convictions not appear in their records is beyond shocking.

The description of the police's violent, degrading and coercive behavior toward the suspects is mild compared to what Knox and Sollecito described but more in line with what Lumumba initially described. Well, until he conveniently changed his story so he could sue not only the police, but Knox too.
Well, this is not really absolutely correct. Perhaps you meant "more severe" rather than "mild".

Quote from the Communication Cioffi v. Italy:

"With specific regard to the applicant, it emerged in the } proceedings that he was subjected to several beatings....{Police officers were charged} with aggravated bodily harm including, {among other criminal acts,} causing the applicant contusions to the head and chest."

The severity of these beatings is not clear, but it seems that the beatings of Cioffi were more severe than the frightening but apparently not very painful slaps on the head experienced by Knox. There is indeed some similarity to the alleged treatment of Lumumba as reported in the Daily Mail.

Last edited by Numbers; 23rd February 2020 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 06:08 PM   #1464
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Just for the record:
https://www.allmystery.de/dateien/11...K_us_purch.jpg
Guess, the above picture shows the much talked about piece of red underwear
Yes, the one Knox said were bikini briefs with a cow cartoon. Doesn't look like a g-string to me.

Scotto used the words "tanga" and "perizoma" in his deposition and testimony which translate as "thong" or "g-string". Italian doesn't seem to make as much of a difference as English does between the two styles. In English, a g-string is scantier covering less than a thong. It's more something a stripper/pole dancer in a strip club would wear than for everyday wear. But, of course, the media reported it as a g-string rather than a thong for exactly that reason.

What Scotto actually said in his deposition was 'sesso selvaggio" (wild sex) not "hot sex" as he testified.

As was predictable, the media chose to use the more salacious "g-string" instead of "thong".

It seems to me that IF Raffaele said that they'd have wild/hot sex when Amanda wore a pair of thongs with a cartoon cow on them, that he may have been joking since a cartoon cow is hardly erotic.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 06:14 PM   #1465
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Well, this is not really absolutely correct. Perhaps you meant "more severe" rather than "mild".

Quote from the Communication Cioffi v. Italy:

"With specific regard to the applicant, it emerged in the } proceedings that he was subjected to several beatings....{Police officers were charged} with aggravated bodily harm including, {among other criminal acts,} causing the applicant contusions to the head and chest."

The severity of these beatings is not clear, but it seems that the beatings of Cioffi were more severe than the frightening but apparently not very painful slaps on the head experienced by Knox. There is indeed some similarity to the alleged treatment of Lumumba as reported in the Daily Mail.
Thanks for pointing my mistake out! I definitely meant to write the complete opposite. I changed thoughts in the middle of writing it. What I meant to say was that what Knox and Sollecito claimed was mild compared to what the suspects in the Cioffi v Italy claimed.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 06:23 PM   #1466
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The guilter-PR campaign has officially collapsed into Peter Quennell.

Methos may want to add stuff here, but Pete has just commented on the status of the fake-Wiki, which he calls the MK Wiki. He's revealed that fake-Wiki founder, "Edward McCall" has not be seen since 2017. Pete reveals plans to revitalize it, conceding that there are many errors in it.

But this is where the online "war" is in 2020. Since the exonerations in 2015, two major hate sites have closed, one because its original owner withdrew without providing passwords to the second generation of administrators who needed to fix corrupted files.

Now one of the last remaining of the on-line haters is intent on rescuing the fake-Wiki. Indeed the statement that it needs rescuing says buckets about where this case (in its online version) is.

Who knows.... maybe Pete will rescue the fake-Wiki by making it truly user editable.


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Old 24th February 2020, 02:28 PM   #1467
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Just for the record:

Guess, the above picture shows the much talked about piece of red underwear
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, the one Knox said were bikini briefs with a cow cartoon. Doesn't look like a g-string to me.

Scotto used the words "tanga" and "perizoma" in his deposition and testimony which translate as "thong" or "g-string". Italian doesn't seem to make as much of a difference as English does between the two styles. In English, a g-string is scantier covering less than a thong. It's more something a stripper/pole dancer in a strip club would wear than for everyday wear. But, of course, the media reported it as a g-string rather than a thong for exactly that reason.
Neither, to me. Too much of that red (or is it pink?) cloth for that piece of underwear to be called a g-string, thong, tanga or whatever Italian term Scotto di Rinaldi used in his depositon or in his testimony.
IIRC there was another item of clothing that Amanda Knox bought at "bubbles", what did he call that? It became a "camisole" or something like that...

Nevermind, the "bubbles story" of Knox buying "lingerie" or "sexy underwear" was one of my first encounters with "all the other evidence" back then in late 2011 and early 2012. I dismissed it after seeing the picture above and couldn't be bothered to find out what Raffaele Sollecito may have said or not said about "hot" or "wild" sex. (Scotto di Rinaldi simply discredited himself.)

It was also one of the first of many times I thought: "If this is, what "all the other evidence" looks like, the prosecution couldn't have had much of evidence to begin with, could they?"
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Old 24th February 2020, 03:46 PM   #1468
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
It was also one of the first of many times I thought: "If this is, what "all the other evidence" looks like, the prosecution couldn't have had much of evidence to begin with, could they?"
It's strange, my own first encounter with this case was reading in popular newspapers in Aug 2011, that the DNA evidence was breaking down.

It was the first time I'd heard the phrase, "all the other evidence," it was Peter Quennell back then who'd coined it (as far as I knew). He'd used the phrase that month, as he virtually conceded that the DNA evidence had been worthless.

This notion that the circumstantial evidence had been so vast, translating vastness into compellingness, was embraced by no less than Italian lawyer Stefano Maffei, who is perhaps the only independent guilter in the country with impeccable legal credentials.

For me, the first two items on that "all the other evidence" list was the impossibility of a break in through Filomena's window, and sex-on-a-train.

The latter one was simply laughable, part of the guilter-PR campaign to sluttify the narrative. Beyond Mignini and the 1st Chambers of ISC, **no one** thought this case had had a contributory sexual dimension.

But the former.... the impossibility of the break in. Not even the original fact finding judge, Massei, thought that. Massei wrote that the break in had had to have been faked, because he believed that Rudy Guede - the real killer - would not have climbed the wall twice.... once to open the shutters, and a second time once the rock had been thrown through the glass.

But on TJMK, an enterprising poster named Kermit had done a PowerPoint on the subject, supposedly demonstrating that the climb had been impossible. Not just that no one would have done it twice... but that had been impossible.

No one believes that, except the hardest of hard guilter-nutters. I mean there was a TV program that showed.....


Turns out it was us innocentisi who were the saps. We chased down way way way way too many of these single "all the other evidence" thingies, before we embraced the blindingly obvious.
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Old 24th February 2020, 04:29 PM   #1469
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Neither, to me. Too much of that red (or is it pink?) cloth for that piece of underwear to be called a g-string, thong, tanga or whatever Italian term Scotto di Rinaldi used in his depositon or in his testimony.
IIRC there was another item of clothing that Amanda Knox bought at "bubbles", what did he call that? It became a "camisole" or something like that...

Nevermind, the "bubbles story" of Knox buying "lingerie" or "sexy underwear" was one of my first encounters with "all the other evidence" back then in late 2011 and early 2012. I dismissed it after seeing the picture above and couldn't be bothered to find out what Raffaele Sollecito may have said or not said about "hot" or "wild" sex. (Scotto di Rinaldi simply discredited himself.)

It was also one of the first of many times I thought: "If this is, what "all the other evidence" looks like, the prosecution couldn't have had much of evidence to begin with, could they?"
Methos, both of your posted links appear to be linking to the 8 November 2007 deposition before the Perugia police.
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Old 24th February 2020, 04:54 PM   #1470
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Methos, both of your posted links appear to be linking to the 8 November 2007 deposition before the Perugia police.
My bad
The testimony is in this document.
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Old 24th February 2020, 05:45 PM   #1471
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Neither, to me. Too much of that red (or is it pink?) cloth for that piece of underwear to be called a g-string, thong, tanga or whatever Italian term Scotto di Rinaldi used in his depositon or in his testimony.
IIRC there was another item of clothing that Amanda Knox bought at "bubbles", what did he call that? It became a "camisole" or something like that...

Nevermind, the "bubbles story" of Knox buying "lingerie" or "sexy underwear" was one of my first encounters with "all the other evidence" back then in late 2011 and early 2012. I dismissed it after seeing the picture above and couldn't be bothered to find out what Raffaele Sollecito may have said or not said about "hot" or "wild" sex. (Scotto di Rinaldi simply discredited himself.)

It was also one of the first of many times I thought: "If this is, what "all the other evidence" looks like, the prosecution couldn't have had much of evidence to begin with, could they?"
Scotto called it 'una maglia' which translates to 'sweater' or 'jersey'..basically a top. I've seen it reported in the media as a t-shirt and vest, too. He did not use the word 'camaciola' which is the word for 'camisole'.

What the world ended up reading about was a g-string (with its English sexual connotation) and a camisole when what Amanda actually bought was a pair of bikini briefs and an ordinary top (not a camisole). Oh...and Raff telling Amanda they were going to have 'wild' or 'hot' sex (Scotto couldn't remember exactly which word Raff allegedly used) because a pair of underwear with a cartoon cow on them apparently really turned him on!

Were these underwear ever produced in court? No. Amanda had them on the night she was interrogated and when she was arrested. If they were the sexy g-string that the media claimed, then why didn't the prosecution present them during Scotto's testimony as evidence of his story and as evidence of Knox the depraved she-devil who was buying sexy lingerie the day after her roommate was killed?

Scotto claimed he understood Raffaele because he (Scotto) spoke English. But I've never seen any evidence that he did, indeed, speak English. That would have been very easy for the police to verify.

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Old 24th February 2020, 09:15 PM   #1472
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Scotto called it 'una maglia' which translates to 'sweater' or 'jersey'..basically a top. I've seen it reported in the media as a t-shirt and vest, too. He did not use the word 'camaciola' which is the word for 'camisole'.

What the world ended up reading about was a g-string (with its English sexual connotation) and a camisole when what Amanda actually bought was a pair of bikini briefs and an ordinary top (not a camisole). Oh...and Raff telling Amanda they were going to have 'wild' or 'hot' sex (Scotto couldn't remember exactly which word Raff allegedly used) because a pair of underwear with a cartoon cow on them apparently really turned him on!

Were these underwear ever produced in court? No. Amanda had them on the night she was interrogated and when she was arrested. If they were the sexy g-string that the media claimed, then why didn't the prosecution present them during Scotto's testimony as evidence of his story and as evidence of Knox the depraved she-devil who was buying sexy lingerie the day after her roommate was killed?

Scotto claimed he understood Raffaele because he (Scotto) spoke English. But I've never seen any evidence that he did, indeed, speak English. That would have been very easy for the police to verify.
1. The words used by Rinaldi*, "maglia" and "perizoma", each have several translations. "Maglia" may be a shirt, jersey, sweater, t-shirt, or top. "Perizoma" may be a"thong", "loincloth", "string", "G-string", or "nightdress".

2. In his testimony, Rinaldi was not confident of his memory of what Knox had bought. When Mignini reminded him of his investigative statement, Renaldi replied that it must be true.

3. Later in his testimony, Rinaldi calls the "perizoma" a "slip"; the latter Italian word translates to "briefs", "panty", "knickers", "underwear", "bikini", or "slip".

4. Rinaldi in his testimony also hedges on the translation of the English statements that he claims to have heard Sollecito say to Knox. All he testifies to is that he sincerely remembers the words "hot sex". However, as brought out in cross-examination, in his original statement to police, Rinaldi claimed that the words were "wild sex".

5. In his testimony, Rinaldi states that the affectionate behavior (hugging and kissing) he claimed to see (or was reported to him by a sales person?) between Sollecito and Knox was simply the typical behavior of romantically-involved couples.

6. In summary: Rinaldi's testimony is not reliable, in part because of the apparent contradictions and the failure to ascertain his ability to understand English. However, even if one accepted Rinaldi's testimony as generally true, it has no relevance under Italian law or logic to the crimes charged against Knox and Sollecito. For the inference of a fact from such circumstantial evidence as Renaldi's claimed events, the circumstantial evidence must be serious, precise, and consistent. Since Rinaldi acknowledged that the alleged behavior of Knox and Sollecito in his shop was that of any romantically-involved couple (he called them "fidanzati" which translates to: lovers, sweethearts, boyfriend and girlfriend, or engaged couple), there is no credible inference relating to the charges against Knox and Sollecito.

* Carlo Maria Scotto di Rinaldi

Last edited by Numbers; 24th February 2020 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 25th February 2020, 12:39 PM   #1473
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Scotto claimed the pair's behavior was "jokingly" brought to his attention by the shop assistant.* Was this assistant ever interviewed by the police? Not that I could find. What we have is Scotto's claim of what he says he was told. At least the police bothered to interview the assistant in Quintavalle's shop.

In regards to the many translations for 'maglia', 'tanga', and 'perizoma', English tends to have more words that precisely describe these things than Italian. The lack of more precise terms in Italian allows English speakers to choose which word they use which can lead to error of fact. That much of the media (and the PGP) chose to use 'g-string' instead of 'thong' shows a negative bias. How the myth that Knox bought a 'camisole' started is harder to explain as Scotto never used the Italian word 'camiciole'.

Does anyone have a link to the store CCTV footage? I have been unable to find it.


*
Quote:
Yes, I had seen them in the sense that my shop assistant had jokingly pointed out to me that they were hugging each other, kissing, I look, I honestly saw many inside the shop, so it didn't seem like a thing, let's say, unusual.
(S di R's testimony)

ETA: Using Scotto vs Rinaldi: An Italian surname using a "di" is often shortened by dropping the "di" part and using only the first part. Scotto signed the deposition using only Scotto and the Italian testimony transcript uses "CS" for Carlo Scotto.

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Old 25th February 2020, 12:54 PM   #1474
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
.
.
.
6. In summary: Rinaldi's testimony is not reliable, in part because of the apparent contradictions and the failure to ascertain his ability to understand English. However, even if one accepted Rinaldi's testimony as generally true, it has no relevance under Italian law or logic to the crimes charged against Knox and Sollecito. For the inference of a fact from such circumstantial evidence as Renaldi's claimed events, the circumstantial evidence must be serious, precise, and consistent. Since Rinaldi acknowledged that the alleged behavior of Knox and Sollecito in his shop was that of any romantically-involved couple (he called them "fidanzati" which translates to: lovers, sweethearts, boyfriend and girlfriend, or engaged couple), there is no credible inference relating to the charges against Knox and Sollecito.
Ah, but it was very helpful to the anti-Knox PR campaign, which was clearly the whole point of it.

A point that was being made during his testimony (so it seemed), but never followed through, was that Rinaldi said the CCTV system overwrote data after three days, and so how did a recording that was made before 21:00 on 3 Nov get confiscated by the police by 21:00 on 6 Nov? Rinaldi said he didn't know Amanda or Raffaele prior to the murder, and only recognized them from coverage of their arrest, which occurred early morning 6 Nov (not sure when the media first published pictures of them). He said that after he made the realization that the people arrested were in his store, he mentions it to a local cop who came to visit him around lunch time, and shortly thereafter the police came and picked him up and then, supposedly, confiscated the CCTV recorder disk drive. This all seems to be to tight of a timeline to be true. The implication (I believe) being that it was Rinaldi who grabbed the video before it was overwritten, figuring it was an opportunity to get himself and his store into the media. And if that was the case, then it's not a stretch to think he embellished the whole thing to ensure it got headlines.

Then again, I had to get something out of reading both the deposition and the testimony, which is painful considering my poor Italian. Otherwise, I agree, this was a big nothing.
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Old 25th February 2020, 01:53 PM   #1475
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I wondered if he was trying to get attention for his store, too. Like Quintavalle.
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Old 25th February 2020, 02:49 PM   #1476
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Scotto claimed the pair's behavior was "jokingly" brought to his attention by the shop assistant.* Was this assistant ever interviewed by the police? Not that I could find. What we have is Scotto's claim of what he says he was told. At least the police bothered to interview the assistant in Quintavalle's shop.

In regards to the many translations for 'maglia', 'tanga', and 'perizoma', English tends to have more words that precisely describe these things than Italian. The lack of more precise terms in Italian allows English speakers to choose which word they use which can lead to error of fact. That much of the media (and the PGP) chose to use 'g-string' instead of 'thong' shows a negative bias. How the myth that Knox bought a 'camisole' started is harder to explain as Scotto never used the Italian word 'camiciole'.

Does anyone have a link to the store CCTV footage? I have been unable to find it.


*
(S di R's testimony)

ETA: Using Scotto vs Rinaldi: An Italian surname using a "di" is often shortened by dropping the "di" part and using only the first part. Scotto signed the deposition using only Scotto and the Italian testimony transcript uses "CS" for Carlo Scotto.
Stacyhs, thanks for this info. The transcript of the court testimony listed his full name.

Does a "di" followed by a second last name indicate aristocratic ancestry in Italy?
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Old 25th February 2020, 03:31 PM   #1477
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Stacyhs, thanks for this info. The transcript of the court testimony listed his full name.

Does a "di" followed by a second last name indicate aristocratic ancestry in Italy?
Not necessarily.
Quote:
The prefix "di" (as well as "de", "del", "della", and especially "da") may denote a geographical root of a surname. However, it most often denotes a patronymic root (e.g., di Pasquale, di Rito, di Biase, di Nonno, etc.). Sometimes it denotes a desciptive root (di Niro, di Bianco, del Grosso, di Buono, etc.). Of course, the most famous surname based on a place is "da Vinci".
(Italian Genealogy)

Yes, the transcript listed his full name in the intro, but in the identification of who was speaking only CS (Carlo Scotto) was used, not CR.
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:22 PM   #1478
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I wondered if he was trying to get attention for his store, too. Like Quintavalle.

I don't know if it's so much about getting attention/publicity for the store. Rather, I suspect it's more about relishing the spotlight into which they place themselves, especially when it's coupled with the relish of being regarded as one of the people who helped "nail" a criminal.....

One very interesting factor is that both these "witnesses" essentially sided with the prosecution case. I don't think that's a coincidence. Taking the state's side provides one with a very healthy insurance policy at the very least. And I don't think it's an altogether outrageous suggestion that in both of these instances, there may have been an additional motive: to try to obtain "favourable" treatment from the authorities in areas related to their businesses. Things like cooking the books and black-market fencing are astonishingly prevalent in below-Rome Italy, and it's not really hard to see how it would be very useful if the authorities chose to look the other way......
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:25 PM   #1479
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Stacyhs, thanks for this info. The transcript of the court testimony listed his full name.

Does a "di" followed by a second last name indicate aristocratic ancestry in Italy?


Yes: in Italy, "di" is indeed what's known as a nobiliary particle, indicating membership of an aristocratic family.
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Old 25th February 2020, 07:20 PM   #1480
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes: in Italy, "di" is indeed what's known as a nobiliary particle, indicating membership of an aristocratic family.
Not necessarily:

Quote:
The common prefixes of Italian surnames have at least three different sources.

1) Patronyms: The prefix "di" (meaning "of" or "from") is often attached to an otherwise ordinary christian name to form a patronym. di Benedetto (for example) is the Italian equivalent of Benson, di Giovanni is Johnson, and di Miceli is Michaleson. Most ineteresting is the fact that such patronyms often derive not from the name of a paternal ancestor, but from a favored saint or religious figure. Saint Dominic (for example) the founder of the Dominican order gives us di Domenico, Didomenici, Menico, Menicossa... literally hundreds of related patronyms.

2) Location: The prefixes "da" and "di" (again meaning "of" or "from") are often associated with a place of origin. Examples include da Vinci and di Napoli. This aften evolved from a nickname for someone who was "from" a place, but no longer lived there.

3) The prefixes "la" and "lo" (meaning "the") was often derived from nicknames. Giacomo la Greca, for example, means Jimmy the Greek. But in the mid 19th century, the prefix was widely attached to older names in Sicily (at least) where it meant "of the family of." For example, my Furia ancestors began naming their children la Furia, meaning "of the family Furia." It was quite a fashionable thing to do, and the name stuck. At the same time, the Licata family was becoming la Licata, the Greco family was becoming lo Greco, it was an absolute epidemic.

Over time, the prefixes could often be dropped again, or sometimes combined to become a single name (like Dimiceli, or Diliberto). Often siblings would go through lives with different forms, or change them almost willy nilly from one document to the next.
http://geocities.ws/paulanigro/itali..._prefixes.html

Here's an excellent explanation of how Italian surnames formed:

https://www.italyheritage.com/genealogy/surnames/
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