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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 25th February 2020, 07:23 PM   #1481
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I don't know if it's so much about getting attention/publicity for the store. Rather, I suspect it's more about relishing the spotlight into which they place themselves, especially when it's coupled with the relish of being regarded as one of the people who helped "nail" a criminal.....

One very interesting factor is that both these "witnesses" essentially sided with the prosecution case. I don't think that's a coincidence. Taking the state's side provides one with a very healthy insurance policy at the very least. And I don't think it's an altogether outrageous suggestion that in both of these instances, there may have been an additional motive: to try to obtain "favourable" treatment from the authorities in areas related to their businesses. Things like cooking the books and black-market fencing are astonishingly prevalent in below-Rome Italy, and it's not really hard to see how it would be very useful if the authorities chose to look the other way......
It's interesting, though, how both Scotto and Quintavalle owned shops. It could have been a combination of both business and personal attention seeking.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:01 PM   #1482
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Stacyhs, thanks for this info. The transcript of the court testimony listed his full name.

Does a "di" followed by a second last name indicate aristocratic ancestry in Italy?
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Not necessarily.
(Italian Genealogy)

Yes, the transcript listed his full name in the intro, but in the identification of who was speaking only CS (Carlo Scotto) was used, not CR.
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes: in Italy, "di" is indeed what's known as a nobiliary particle, indicating membership of an aristocratic family.
Well, there is perhaps some difference in views in the posts above.

I've done a little Google research on the surname "Scotto di Rinaldi". From that research, I don't believe that the name necessarily indicates an origin in the Italian aristocracy.

I believe I misunderstood and was incorrect to use "Rinaldi" as his surname identification. His full surname is "Scotto di Rinaldi" as illustrated by this excerpt from the trial testimony (page 136, Difesa Avv. Maori questioning):

"Allora o le ha date il signor Scotto di Rinaldi o le ha date la Polizia non ce ne sono altri."

"Then either Mr. Scotto di Rinaldi gave them or the police gave them there are no others." (Google translation)

The police interview also lists his last name as "Scotto di Rinaldi".

I am not sure what Stacyhs means about his identification in the transcript as "CS".

In the police interview, there are no Q-and-As, only, after the introduction including his full name and other identification, a summary attributed to Scotto di Renaldi. The signature appears to be "Carlo [followed by two? characters undecipherable to me]".

The trial testimony transcript gives his full name at the start of his testimony, but indicates the witness responses to questions by "Risposta" (translating to "Answer" or "Response"). Here's an example from page 127, where he repeats his name and date of birth at the presiding judge's request:

"PRESIDENTE - Di ufficio oggi, le sue generalità le ha già indicate.
RISPOSTA - Sì, Carlo Maria, Scotto di Rinaldi, nato a Roma il 10/4/1977."

"PRESIDENT - Officially today, has he already indicated his {identification} details?
ANSWER - Yes, {I am} Carlo Maria, Scotto di Rinaldi, born in Rome on 04/10/1977."

Here's another example, with Mignini questioning Scotto di Rinaldi (page 128):

"DOMANDA – Senta, lei ha mai visto i due imputati, Amanda e Sollecito?
RISPOSTA – Sì.
DOMANDA – Ecco, ci dica quando l'ha visti per la prima volta.
RISPOSTA – Li ho visti per la prima volta, quantomeno per
quanto io ricordi, perché..."

"QUESTION - Listen, have you ever seen the two defendants, Amanda and Sollecito?
ANSWER - Yes.
QUESTION - Here, tell us when you saw them for the first time.
ANSWER - I saw them for the first time, at least for as much as I remember, because ..."

Last edited by Numbers; 25th February 2020 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:48 PM   #1483
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Well, there is perhaps some difference in views in the posts above.

I've done a little Google research on the surname "Scotto di Rinaldi". From that research, I don't believe that the name necessarily indicates an origin in the Italian aristocracy.

I believe I misunderstood and was incorrect to use "Rinaldi" as his surname identification. His full surname is "Scotto di Rinaldi" as illustrated by this excerpt from the trial testimony (page 136, Difesa Avv. Maori questioning):

"Allora o le ha date il signor Scotto di Rinaldi o le ha date la Polizia non ce ne sono altri."

"Then either Mr. Scotto di Rinaldi gave them or the police gave them there are no others." (Google translation)

The police interview also lists his last name as "Scotto di Rinaldi".

I am not sure what Stacyhs means about his identification in the transcript as "CS".
>SNIP<
Quote:
DEPOSIZIONE DEL TESTE - CARLO MARIA SCOTTO DI RINALDI -


CS: Sì, Carlo Maria, Scotto di Rinaldi, nato a Roma il 10/4/1977 .


GCM: Lei in relazione alla situazione prima, che prima le è stata accennata cioè l'esistenza di un procedimento collegato a questo in corso a suo carico, ha la facoltà di astenersi, le si fa comunque presente quanto previsto dal 64, lettera c) cioè se lei decide di non avvalersi della facoltà di astenersi, ove dovesse rendere dichiarazioni relative a circostanze che possano integrare elementi di responsabilità a carico di altri, in relazione a queste circostanze lei potrà assumere l'ufficio di testimone con le garanzie e le incompatibilità di cui agli articoli 197 e 197 bis del Codice di Procedura Penale. Quindi lei intende avvalersi della facoltà di non rispondere o viceversa non si avvale di questa facoltà? Cioè intende risponde oppure dice: no, io mi avvalgo delle facoltà che la legge mi consente e, quindi, come le...


CS:Posso rispondere, rispondo, rispondo.


GCM:Quindi non si avvale della facoltà.


CS: No assolutamente.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...%27s_Testimony
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Old 25th February 2020, 08:53 PM   #1484
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Thanks, Stacyhs.

I was using the court testimony file linked to by Methos.

That seems to be a true copy of the original.

I suspect that the MMK.com one substituted initials for the original Q-and-A wording.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:07 PM   #1485
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English speakers unfamiliar with how surnames are used in some Romance language countries automatically think the last name is the paternal surname. For example, Mexico's president is Andrés Manuel López Obrador. Most English speakers would assume his surname is Obrador. But López is his father's surname while Obrador is his mother's paternal surname. Spanish surnames are a combination of both parents' names. In daily life, the name is often shortened by just using the paternal surname. Vicente Fox Quesada is another example. He is generally just called Vicente Fox.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:08 PM   #1486
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Thanks, Stacyhs.

I was using the court testimony file linked to by Methos.

That seems to be a true copy of the original.

I suspect that the MMK.com one substituted initials for the original Q-and-A wording.
That could well be. But in his deposition, Carlo just signed Scotto...no di Rinaldi.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:12 PM   #1487
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
English speakers unfamiliar with how surnames are used in some Romance language countries automatically think the last name is the paternal surname. For example, Mexico's president is Andrés Manuel López Obrador. Most English speakers would assume his surname is Obrador. But López is his father's surname while Obrador is his mother's paternal surname. Spanish surnames are a combination of both parents' names. In daily life, the name is often shortened by just using the paternal surname. Vicente Fox Quesada is another example. He is generally just called Vicente Fox.
It's not that relevant, but Italian surnames do not follow the pattern of Spanish surnames. French surnames also do not follow the pattern of Spanish ones, either.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:14 PM   #1488
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That could well be. But in his deposition, Carlo just signed Scotto...no di Rinaldi.
Which deposition? I don't see "Scotto" nor "Rinaldi" in the signatures on the police interview of Scotto di Rinaldi. There is some scribble after "Carlo".
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:19 PM   #1489
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
It's not that relevant, but Italian surnames do not follow the pattern of Spanish surnames. French surnames also do not follow the pattern of Spanish ones, either.
I know that. I'm just pointing out that surname usage is not always the same as Anglo-Saxon usage which is why just Scotto can be used in place of the full Scotto di Rinaldi.



The two tall letters are the T's followed by an 'o'. Scotto di Rinaldi would be longer and separated with at least 3 spaces
.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 25th February 2020 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:52 PM   #1490
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Thanks, Stacyhs.

I was using the court testimony file linked to by Methos.

That seems to be a true copy of the original.

I suspect that the MMK.com one substituted initials for the original Q-and-A wording.
What's really interesting is, if one looks closely at page 3 "DEPOSIZIONE DEL TESTE – SCOTTO DI RINALDI CARLO MARIA" and page 127 of Scotto di Rinaldi's testimony in the file linked to by Methos, and also to material you quote from MMK, in what the presiding judge, Giancarlo Massei (GCM) told Carlo Maria Scotto di Rinaldi (CS) in the longish quote, it appears that Scotto di Rinaldi was being accused of some illegal act, and the judge raises the question of whether he may have needed a lawyer present during the questioning. Scotto di Rinaldi was cautioned by the presiding judge, Massei, under CPP Article 64, which applies to a suspect or accused under questioning. CPP Article 197 and 197-bis, also mentioned by the presiding judge, apply to testimony from co-accused persons or those with civil liability or in joined proceedings.

From page 3 of the original transcript:

Quote:
GENERALITA’: Carlo Maria Scotto di Rinaldi, nato a Roma il 10
Aprile 1977.
PRESIDENTE - Il Pubblico Ministero ha fatto presente che è
pendente un procedimento connesso a quello per il quale
stiamo ora procedendo.
RISPOSTA – Sì.
PRESIDENTE – E quindi ex Art. e quindi il procedimento è così,
è vera questa?
RISPOSTA – Sì sì.
INTERVENTO – Eventualmente collegato.
PRESIDENTE - Collegato sì. Quindi magari il signor Scotto di
Rinaldi, deve essere assistito da un difensore, è stato
individuato. Lei ha un difensore di fiducia?
RISPOSTA – Sì, ma non è presente oggi in aula, perché mi hanno
chiamato come teste, quindi io non... non sono stato
informato della...
PRESIDENTE - Possiamo nominare un difensore di ufficio
immediatamente reperibile...
Quote:
GENERAL INFORMATION: Carlo Maria Scotto di Rinaldi, born in Rome on 10 April 1977.
PRESIDENT - The Public Prosecutor pointed out that there is a proceeding related to the one for which we are now proceeding.
ANSWER - Yes.

PRESIDENT - And therefore ex Art. And therefore the procedure is like this,
is this true?
ANSWER - Yes yes.
INTERVENTION - Possibly connected.
PRESIDENT - Connected yes. So maybe Mr. Scotto di Rinaldi, {the need} to be assisted by a lawyer, has been identified. Do you have a lawyer?
ANSWER - Yes, but he is not present in the court room today, because they have me called as a witness, so I didn't ... I haven't been informed of ...
PRESIDENT - We can appoint a lawyer {who is} immediately available ...

From page 127 of the original transcript and your excerpt from the MMK.com transcript:

Quote:
You {Scotto di Rinaldi} in relation to the situation before, which was first mentioned to you that is the existence of a proceeding connected to this in progress against you, have the right to abstain, however you are reminded of the provisions of {CPP Article} 64, letter c) that is if you decide not to avail yourself of the right to abstain, should you make declarations relating to circumstances that could integrate elements of responsibility for others, in relation to these circumstances you may take on the office of witness with the guarantees and incompatibilities referred to in articles 197 and 197 bis of the Code of Criminal Procedure. So you intend to take advantage of the faculty of not answering or vice versa does not make use of this faculty? That is, he intends to answer or says: no, I take advantage of the faculties that the law allows me and, therefore, as ...
Does anyone know what this is all about?

Did Massei confuse Scotto di Rinaldi with Rudy Guede?

Had the police and/or Mignini made accusations against Scotto di Rinaldi, perhaps to encourage his cooperation in the Knox - Sollecito case?

ETA: Translations by Google with my help.

Last edited by Numbers; 25th February 2020 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 25th February 2020, 09:58 PM   #1491
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I know that. I'm just pointing out that surname usage is not always the same as Anglo-Saxon usage which is why just Scotto can be used in place of the full Scotto di Rinaldi.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5f1daeb386.jpg

The two tall letters are the T's followed by an 'o'. Scotto di Rinaldi would be longer and separated with at least 3 spaces
.
Thanks, Stacyhs. Your understanding of scribbles is better than mine. I saw in the scribbles may be a "d" followed by a "V".
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Old 26th February 2020, 01:02 AM   #1492
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
What's really interesting is, if one looks closely at page 3 "DEPOSIZIONE DEL TESTE – SCOTTO DI RINALDI CARLO MARIA" and page 127 of Scotto di Rinaldi's testimony in the file linked to by Methos, and also to material you quote from MMK, in what the presiding judge, Giancarlo Massei (GCM) told Carlo Maria Scotto di Rinaldi (CS) in the longish quote, it appears that Scotto di Rinaldi was being accused of some illegal act, and the judge raises the question of whether he may have needed a lawyer present during the questioning. Scotto di Rinaldi was cautioned by the presiding judge, Massei, under CPP Article 64, which applies to a suspect or accused under questioning. CPP Article 197 and 197-bis, also mentioned by the presiding judge, apply to testimony from co-accused persons or those with civil liability or in joined proceedings.

From page 3 of the original transcript:






From page 127 of the original transcript and your excerpt from the MMK.com transcript:



Does anyone know what this is all about?

Did Massei confuse Scotto di Rinaldi with Rudy Guede?

Had the police and/or Mignini made accusations against Scotto di Rinaldi, perhaps to encourage his cooperation in the Knox - Sollecito case?

ETA: Translations by Google with my help.
Scotto di Rinaldi was being sued by Dr. Sollecito:

Quote:
When the police sent them home early Saturday evening, Amanda and Raffaele went shopping. Amanda needed some clean underwear. She had her period and was still wearing the clothes she'd put on the morning before Meredith's body was found. She and Raffaele went to Bubbles, one of the cheaper of the overpriced clothing shops in the Perugia centro... The underwear, lots of thongs, were laid out on a table. The loss-prevention camera captured Amanda and Rafaele together at that table at 7 pm, picking through the lingerie, stopping to hug and kiss.

After they were arrested, the video was valuable and the owner sold it and his own narration, including his memory of Raffaele saying, "Now we'll go home and have wild sex," to the Italian television networks, which looped it alongside the tape of the couple hugging outside the murder house. Raffaele's father sued Bubbles for releasing it.
Nina Burleigh (The Fatal Gift of Beauty) - p 181

I think the motivation has become clear. Since there is no audio to the recording, Scotto could put words in Raff's mouth to make his story more valuable. As this confirms, Amanda was on her period so the chances that Raff wanted to go have "wild sex" that night isn't very likely.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 26th February 2020 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 26th February 2020, 01:28 AM   #1493
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This is what Raffaele wrote about the Bubble-thong incident:

Quote:
The day after the discovery of the body, on November 3, Amanda asked if we could go shopping because she’d retrieved nothing from the house, not even underwear, and it was now inaccessible. We first tried an outlet called Timbro, which specializes in fashions for our age group, but it was too expensive. So we moved on to a bright pink teen discount store, Bubble, where she tried on some jeans

I made a joke in English, saying something along the lines of, “Wow, you’re going to look smoking hot in those.” A few days later, this episode would be distorted in the newspapers to make it seem as if the first thing we did after the murder was to buy sexy lingerie—specifically, a G-string—and tell each other how we couldn’t wait to try it out. The store owner, who did not speak English, corroborated the story in pursuit of his own brief moment in the spotlight. True, the surveillance video in the store showed us touching and kissing, but that was hardly a crime. I wasn’t making out with her in some vulgar or inappropriate way, just comforting her and letting her know I was there for her. Besides, there was nothing remotely sexy about Bubble. A much sexier underwear store was next door, and we didn’t set foot in there.
Sollecito, Raffaele. Honor Bound: My Journey to Hell and Back with Amanda Knox . Gallery Books. Kindle Edition.

As I suspected, Scotto took something Raff said jokingly and distorted it. No wonder the "wild/hot" sex bit sounded so stilted and made up.
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Old 26th February 2020, 02:14 AM   #1494
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For those interested, here are a couple pictures I took of Bubble when I was there last spring. The first is the entrance. The counter is not visible but is just to the right of the door. It's where RS and AK were standing in the CCTV footage.




This is the back room where the clothes are:

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Old 26th February 2020, 06:33 AM   #1495
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Scotto di Rinaldi was being sued by Dr. Sollecito:


Nina Burleigh (The Fatal Gift of Beauty) - p 181

I think the motivation has become clear. Since there is no audio to the recording, Scotto could put words in Raff's mouth to make his story more valuable. As this confirms, Amanda was on her period so the chances that Raff wanted to go have "wild sex" that night isn't very likely.
Stacyhs, thanks again.

But wouldn't Raffaele be the person who would have had grounds for the lawsuit? I understand that Dr. Sollecito could have helped organize or fund the lawsuit.

Also, CPP Article 64 applies to an accused person. So the lawsuit would need to be a criminal defamation case, not merely a civil defamation.

Was there any conclusion to the lawsuit?
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Old 26th February 2020, 06:50 AM   #1496
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Scotto di Rinaldi was being sued by Dr. Sollecito:


Nina Burleigh (The Fatal Gift of Beauty) - p 181

I think the motivation has become clear. Since there is no audio to the recording, Scotto could put words in Raff's mouth to make his story more valuable. As this confirms, Amanda was on her period so the chances that Raff wanted to go have "wild sex" that night isn't very likely.
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Stacyhs, thanks again.

But wouldn't Raffaele be the person who would have had grounds for the lawsuit? I understand that Dr. Sollecito could have helped organize or fund the lawsuit.

Also, CPP Article 64 applies to an accused person. So the lawsuit would need to be a criminal defamation case, not merely a civil defamation.

Was there any conclusion to the lawsuit?
Criminal defamation is covered under several Italian laws, the primary one being CP Articles 595; additional laws cover charging the publishers of defamatory material:


Quote:
Articolo 595 Codice penale
(R.D. 19 ottobre 1930, n. 1398)
[Aggiornato al 27/11/2019]

Diffamazione

Chiunque, fuori dei casi indicati nell'articolo precedente, comunicando con più persone, offende l'altrui reputazione, è punito con la reclusione fino a un anno o con la multa fino a milletrentadue euro.

Se l'offesa consiste nell'attribuzione di un fatto determinato, la pena è della reclusione fino a due anni, ovvero della multa fino a duemilasessantacinque euro.

Se l'offesa è recata col mezzo della stampa [57-58bis] o con qualsiasi altro mezzo di pubblicità, ovvero in atto pubblico [2699], la pena è della reclusione da sei mesi a tre anni o della multa non inferiore a cinquecentosedici euro.

Se l'offesa è recata a un Corpo politico, amministrativo o giudiziario, o ad una sua rappresentanza, o ad una Autorità costituita in collegio [342], le pene sono aumentat.
Quote:
Article 595 Criminal Code
(R.D. 19 October 1930, n. 1398)
[Updated on 11/27/2019]

Defamation

Apart from the cases indicated in the previous article, anyone who, by communicating with more than one person, offends the reputation of others, is punished with imprisonment of up to one year or a fine of up to one thousand thirty-two euros.

If the offense consists in the attribution of a specific fact, the penalty is imprisonment of up to two years, or a fine of up to two thousand and sixty-five euros.

If the offense was made by the press [57-58bis] or by any other means of publicity, or in a public deed [2699], the penalty is imprisonment from six months to three years or a fine of no less at five hundred and sixteen euros.

If the offense went to a political, administrative or judicial body, or to its representation, or to an authority established in an official group [342], the penalties are increased.
Google translation.

Source: https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penal...v_art_prec_top
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Old 26th February 2020, 11:29 AM   #1497
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Stacyhs, thanks again.

But wouldn't Raffaele be the person who would have had grounds for the lawsuit? I understand that Dr. Sollecito could have helped organize or fund the lawsuit.

Also, CPP Article 64 applies to an accused person. So the lawsuit would need to be a criminal defamation case, not merely a civil defamation.

Was there any conclusion to the lawsuit?
I agree that it was far more likely that it was Dr. Sollecito handling the lawsuit for Raffaele. I have not been able find any more information on the lawsuit itself. Perhaps someone who knows how to navigate the Italian legal records could find out.

The only possible reference Raffaele made was this from his book:

Quote:
My family was still working through some minor lawsuits of its own.
This was at the time he went to Seattle post Hellmann verdict.

ETA: I found this referring to the lawsuit in Scotto's testimony:

Luca Maori:
Quote:
Then in order to the exact words in English, then I will leave the word to colleague Dalla Vedova who knows English much better than I can and can say. Then, the defense Sollecito lodges the lawsuit, which was filed against Scotto di Rinaldi for the crimes of violation of the law on privacy and other, and the proceedings are prosecuted to the Prosecutor of Perugia, number 9856 of 2007, PM Doctor Mignini.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 26th February 2020 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 26th February 2020, 12:15 PM   #1498
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While looking for information, I ran across this passage from Follain's book:

Quote:
At about 7 p.m., Carlo Scotto di Rinaldi, owner of the Babbol (sic) clothes shop off Perugia’s main square opposite the cathedral, noticed a young couple walking around his store, caressing, kissing and embracing each other in such a way that customers kept looking at them. The young woman chose a thong and a pullover and, as they neared the till to pay for them, the owner overheard the young man tell her in English: ‘Later you’ll put them on at home and we’ll have hot sex …”
(Follain, location 1586)

Scotto di Rinaldi did not testify that he saw them behaving this way at all. This from his testimony:

Quote:
CS: Yes, they have ... Exactly Amanda tried on some clothes.
GM: What did you take, remember?
CS: No, honestly, the clothes she tried on, no also because I was at the checkout and the shop is practically two divided rooms.
Quote:
CS: But I only saw them in front of the cash desk, I don't ... I don't deal with the sale, then.
Quote:
CS: Yes, I had seen them in the sense that my shop assistant had jokingly pointed out to me that they were hugging each other, kissing, I look, I honestly saw many inside the shop, so it didn't seem like a thing, let's say, unusual.
This is among the many things that Follain got wrong. I can absolutely confirm that the back area where the clothes are cannot be seen from the purchase counter unless you lean over it and then you will only see a very small part at one end of the back area. I stood at the entrance of the back room and got as much into the picture as I could. NONE of that area is visible from the counter including the dressing rooms or the table.
You can see this by comparing the two pics I provided.

Another thing that Scotto (and Follain) claimed was that other people noticed the couple's behavior. But there is no evidence of this. He doesn't say anyone else said anything to him or his assistant about. He just claims it.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 26th February 2020 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 26th February 2020, 12:40 PM   #1499
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
While looking for information, I ran across this passage from Follain's book:


(Follain, location 1586)

Scotto di Rinaldi did not testify that he saw them behaving this way at all. This from his testimony:

This is among the many things that Follain got wrong.
There's no way to know the source of this one tidbit from Follain's book, but in general Follain simply passed on what either the police or Mignini himself told them. The value of Follain's book is that it is a window into the way the police/Mignini created the talking points for the guilter-PR campaign.

Most specifically in the case of the underwear buying - remember early on the prosecution was trying hard to sell the "sex-game-gone-wrong" theory (a theory rejected by ALL courts except the 2013 ISC - was one of those factoids intended to sluttify to case.

As for your own visit to the shoppe - there's nothing like knowing the lay of the land, what had been possible and what had not. Now that the guilter-PR campaign has officially shrunk into Peter Quennell's ownership, there are precious few, if any, who but the sluttification trope. Just about everyone sees it for what it is - an early way for the prosecution to sluittify the narrative, to prop up a soon-to-be failed theory of the crime.
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Old 26th February 2020, 01:18 PM   #1500
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
There's no way to know the source of this one tidbit from Follain's book, but in general Follain simply passed on what either the police or Mignini himself told them. The value of Follain's book is that it is a window into the way the police/Mignini created the talking points for the guilter-PR campaign.

Most specifically in the case of the underwear buying - remember early on the prosecution was trying hard to sell the "sex-game-gone-wrong" theory (a theory rejected by ALL courts except the 2013 ISC - was one of those factoids intended to sluttify to case.

As for your own visit to the shoppe - there's nothing like knowing the lay of the land, what had been possible and what had not. Now that the guilter-PR campaign has officially shrunk into Peter Quennell's ownership, there are precious few, if any, who but the sluttification trope. Just about everyone sees it for what it is - an early way for the prosecution to sluittify the narrative, to prop up a soon-to-be failed theory of the crime.
All of this tends to support my belief this was Rinaldi's own initiative to captured the video before it was overwritten, and that he fed it to the police, albeit the 'official story', as he so desperately tried to make sure everyone understood in his testimony, was that it was the police, after an innocent mention of witnessing 'the event', that directed him to turn it over.

Considering what had just happened the day before, and given Amanda's period, I tend to believe Raffaele's account is what actually happened but that the police, just as they had with Quintavalle, Curatolo and Capezzali, coached Rinaldi on what the official story should be. It was all part of a PR campaign by the police to destroy Amanda's character. In this case, proving she was sexually obsessed and heartless ... perfect for the sex game gone wrong theory the police were floating.

This is, of course, all speculation, but it's an interesting 'detail' that I hadn't really given much thought to before now.
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Old 26th February 2020, 01:25 PM   #1501
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Follain could have read Scotto's testimony and realized that what he was claiming in his book was not what Scotto said. The book wasn't published until after the Hellmann acquittal so I'm pretty sure the Massei court testimonies were already available.

At least he had the decency not to refer to the underwear as a "g-string" or the top as a "camisole". The same cannot be said for Barbie Nadeau:

Quote:
(Amanda) is shown on the closed-circuit TV footage kissing Raffaele and laughing with him as they hold up various G-strings. In one still shot taken from the footage, Raffaele is standing behind Amanda with his hands on her hips and his groin pressed into her.
I can't find the picture she is referring to but how can she surmise he was pressing his groin into her and not merely standing close behind her from a still shot? He is also wearing a heavy winter coat making that even less possible. Typical Barbie.
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Old 26th February 2020, 01:34 PM   #1502
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
It was all part of a PR campaign by the police to destroy Amanda's character. In this case, proving she was sexually obsessed and heartless ... perfect for the sex game gone wrong theory the police were floating.

This is, of course, all speculation, but it's an interesting 'detail' that I hadn't really given much thought to before now.
To be fair, it is only speculation that the police had overtly manipulated all of this, in support of the "sex game gone wrong" theory. Remember, of all the motives that the police/PM/convicting courts had enumerated by the truckload...

.... the "sex-game-gone-wrong" theory was the weakest of an already weak field. Add to all this that as many have pointed out, a motive is actually not needed - esp. if the surrounding evidence had been solid. Indeed, the manic-floating of various motives, and dropping of others, is the most sure sign that something had been wrong with the prosecution from the beginning.

Remember what even Barbie Nadeau had reported? It was she alone who'd reported that co-prosecutor Manuela Comodi had threatened to quit the case if lead-prosecutor Mignini had gone to trial with the "Satanic rite" theory of the crime. By the time the first trial finished, Mignini was floating yet another motive to the panel of judges: that Knox had had a psychological flaw which had made her jealous of the victim.

This whole mess has had many layers. One layer is what the like of John Follain had written in "A Death in Italy", often writing the very thoughts of police and prosecutors as if he had intimate access to them. Then there is the layer of actual pressure put on folk like Rinaldi, or pressure put onto police. Or pressure prosecutor's felt to quickly declare "case closed".

Back to the underwear shoppe. What possible interest would anyone have in a young couple's underwear buying habits, especially when one of them is locked out of their apartment and has no clothes to access? What possible interest? Unless someone was wanting to sluttify the narrative surrounding that young woman?

By the time that others floated motives like:
- a simple choice for evil while distant from social norms back home
- a dispute over cleanliness in the cottage
- a dispute over rent money
- etc. etc. etc. to joint the Satanic Rite, sex-game gone-wrong, psychological damage motive, etc
I mean, the attempt to float all those mutually exclusive reasons-why should say something, shouldn't it?
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Old 26th February 2020, 04:12 PM   #1503
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Quote:
What possible interest would anyone have in a young couple's underwear buying habits, especially when one of them is locked out of their apartment and has no clothes to access? What possible interest? Unless someone was wanting to sluttify the narrative surrounding that young woman?
There isn't any other reason which is why the media, PGP and prosecution all presented her as buying a "g-string" instead of just underwear. "Underwear", "bikini briefs" and "thongs" just don't bring to mind the image they wanted to present.
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Old 27th February 2020, 02:53 PM   #1504
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This is interesting from the current trial in Italy of Elder and Natale-Hjorth for killing Cerciello-Rega, a carabinieri officer last summer. It's from a letter sent to ABC News from Elder's father:

Quote:
Immediately we realized we are dealing with a very different legal system. The "confession" Finn gave to the police came after eight hours of him being slapped, kicked, spit on and stood on; different interrogators, none of them proficient in English, came in to interview him and extract the words they wanted to hear. (This technique, known as "leapfrogging," was employed in the Amanda Knox case as well.) We later learned that the Carabinieri had secretly filmed us when we separately visited Finn in prison.
Quote:
Just before Thanksgiving an Italian paper reported that the prosecution had transcripts from our private conversations with Finn in jail, and that he admitted to knowing they were cops. But the reports were a lie. We have viewed the recordings and know what was actually said. We must fight each lie with the truth to learn what actually happened that night.
https://abc7news.com/5865563/

In a "leaked" interview between Elder and his father, the Italian translation appears to show that the boy knew C-Rega was a police officer, but Elder's lawyer disputes that. He claims that the correct translation has Elder saying "they didn't show anything" in reference to the two officers showing their badges.
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Old 27th February 2020, 03:06 PM   #1505
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This is interesting from the current trial in Italy of Elder and Natale-Hjorth for killing Cerciello-Rega, a carabinieri officer last summer. It's from a letter sent to ABC News from Elder's father:




https://abc7news.com/5865563/

In a "leaked" interview between Elder and his father, the Italian translation appears to show that the boy knew C-Rega was a police officer, but Elder's lawyer disputes that. He claims that the correct translation has Elder saying "they didn't show anything" in reference to the two officers showing their badges.
The above suggests that the mistreatment and fabrications by the Italian authorities in the Knox - Sollecito case may be common features of Italian criminal investigations.
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Old 27th February 2020, 03:13 PM   #1506
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In addition, Elder's lawyer said "key parts" of the leaked conversation in jail between father and son are missing. Hmmmm...

This reminds me of the "leaked" conversation between Amanda and her mother that the media (and some PGP) claimed was Amanda admitting to being at the cottage. It wasn't.

The Italian police sure seem to have a 'leak' problem, don't they?
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Old 27th February 2020, 03:18 PM   #1507
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Would someone mind telling me what Italy actually did as a consequence of the ECHR ruling against them? Sorry, I haven't been in the thread recently.
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Old 27th February 2020, 03:21 PM   #1508
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There's a recent ECHR case, Y. vs. Bulgaria 41990/18 20/02/2020, that finds that an incompetent investigation by domestic authorities of a rape is a violation of the State's positive obligations (that is, procedural limb) under Convention Article 3.

In the case, there was medical evidence that Ms. Y had been raped, as she stated to police, and a suspect, Mr. X, was identified, but the DNA evidence found on Ms. Y's underwear suggested that a second man, Mr. Z, should be further investigated, while the DNA evidence did not implicate Mr. X. However, the police failed to effectively follow-up the investigation of Mr. Z.

One point made by the ECHR judgment made was that the Respondent State (Bulgaria) did not verify the reliability of the DNA evidence seemingly implicating Mr. Z, or even independently determining his location at the relevant time or his relationship, if any, to Ms. Y. (Paragraph 87)

This line of reasoning by the ECHR may be suggestive of how it would view the investigative methods and practices such as those of the Italian authorities in the Knox - Sollecito case if such methods and practices were to come before it in a case.

Last edited by Numbers; 27th February 2020 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 27th February 2020, 03:22 PM   #1509
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Would someone mind telling me what Italy actually did as a consequence of the ECHR ruling against them? Sorry, I haven't been in the thread recently.
Italy has paid her the money the ECHR declared they must give her. We are still waiting for their action plan to be presented to the Court.
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Old 27th February 2020, 04:32 PM   #1510
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Police lying to protect fellow officers. Whodda thunk it?

Quote:
Varriale's superior, Cmdr. Sandro Ottaviani, is on administrative leave for lying to his own supervisors when he told them that Varriale gave him his service weapon at the hospital after the stabbing
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/26/europ...urt/index.html

I wonder if Elder and Natale-Hjorth were plied with chamomile tea and cakes? And if so, was it before or after N-H was illegally blindfolded?

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Old 27th February 2020, 04:35 PM   #1511
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
There isn't any other reason which is why the media, PGP and prosecution all presented her as buying a "g-string" instead of just underwear. "Underwear", "bikini briefs" and "thongs" just don't bring to mind the image they wanted to present.
And this brings around to me what I hated about this case. It shows just how little progress society has made. It demonized sex and especially the idea that women might have sexual desires.

One of the prominent ideas the PGP promoted was that Amanda was some kind of she-devil and manipulated Raffaele and Rudy to fulfill some crazy violent sex fantasy. Of course there is no evidence of that. But this says a lot about how women are portrayed in fictional books and movies. Eve tempts Adam. Delilah does the same to Samson. Salome dances for King Herod to obtain the head of John the Baptist.

When do we grow up? Sexual desires are normal for both men and women. They have almost nothing to do with violence. This wouldn't have happened if not for these bizarre fictional ideas about women.
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Old 27th February 2020, 04:55 PM   #1512
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And this brings around to me what I hated about this case. It shows just how little progress society has made. It demonized sex and especially the idea that women might have sexual desires.

One of the prominent ideas the PGP promoted was that Amanda was some kind of she-devil and manipulated Raffaele and Rudy to fulfill some crazy violent sex fantasy. Of course there is no evidence of that. But this says a lot about how women are portrayed in fictional books and movies. Eve tempts Adam. Delilah does the same to Samson. Salome dances for King Herod to obtain the head of John the Baptist.

When do we grow up? Sexual desires are normal for both men and women. They have almost nothing to do with violence. This wouldn't have happened if not for these bizarre fictional ideas about women.
Agreed. There's a guy in another group who never misses a chance to slut shame Knox. Then again, he used to be a firm PIP until he had his heart broken when he didn't get invited to the 2015 Seattle celebration. He thought contributing money to her defense fund entitled him to an invitation. Since then, he's attacked her viciously like a jilted lover on FB. It's rather sad.
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Old 27th February 2020, 06:57 PM   #1513
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed. There's a guy in another group who never misses a chance to slut shame Knox. Then again, he used to be a firm PIP until he had his heart broken when he didn't get invited to the 2015 Seattle celebration. He thought contributing money to her defense fund entitled him to an invitation. Since then, he's attacked her viciously like a jilted lover on FB. It's rather sad.
In my book, there is nothing shameful about being a slut. A desire for sex is normal. I was one when I was 20. And what's good for the goose as the saying goes. But I'd hardly describe Amanda at 20 as a slut. It sounded pretty average for a healthy 20 year old.

Then there was the silliness about the vibrator. First Amanda described it as a gag gift. I think people especially women are embarrassed about masturbation and sex toys. It may have been a gag gift, but even if Amanda was giving it a workout every night, it's irrelevant.

And I don't buy for one second that the mere sight of a vibrator especially for a sexually active woman as Meredith was would come down with the vapors. That's a laugh if ever there was one.

My point about all this is the media engaged in tittilation at the expense of justice, women as a whole and Amanda specifically.
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Old 27th February 2020, 07:04 PM   #1514
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Would someone mind telling me what Italy actually did as a consequence of the ECHR ruling against them? Sorry, I haven't been in the thread recently.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Italy has paid her the money the ECHR declared they must give her. We are still waiting for their action plan to be presented to the Court.
Stacyhs' post is correct. In addition, Italy has provided the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, which is the organ of the CoE that supervises the execution of judgments of the ECHR, a preliminary communication (dated 10 January 2020) that acknowledges the ECHR judgment by summarizing it and goes on to cite some preliminary general measures, such as translating the ECHR judgment to Italian, distributing the translation to the Italian courts, and posting the translation on the Ministry of Justice and CSC websites.

Here's the text of the Italian communication (in French) followed by a Google translation with my help.

Quote:
Rappresentanza permanente d'Italia presso il Consiglio d'Europa

Affaire KNOX c. Italie
(Requête n° 76577/13)
Arrêt du 24/01/2019
Définitif le 24/06/2019

Communication du Gouvernement

Résumé introductif de l'affaire

L'affaire concerne une procédure portant sur la condamnation d' Amanda Knox pour dénonciation calomnieuse. Lors d'un interrogatoire qui s'est déroulé le 6 novembre 2007, Mme Knox avait accusé le gérant d'un pub d' avoir tué sa colocataire. Ce dernier fut innocenté par la suite, et Mme Knox fut condamnée à trois ans de réclusion pour dénonciation calomnieuse.

Dans son arrêt du 24 janvier 2019, devenu définitif le 24 juin 2019, la Cour européenne des droits de l'homme a dit, à l'unanimité, qu' il y avait eu : Violation du volet procédural (enquête) de l'article 3 (interdiction des traitements inhumains ou dégradants) de la Convention européenne des droits de l'homme.

La Cour juge en particulier que Mme Knox n'a pas bénéficié d'une enquête pouvant éclaircir les faits et les responsabilités éventuelles concernant son allégation selon laquelle elle aurait subi des traitements dégradants, le 6 novembre 2007, alors qu'elle se trouvait entièrement sous le contrôle des forces de l'ordre. En effet, malgré ses plaintes réitérées, les traitements dénoncés par Mme Knox n'ont fait l'objet d'aucune enquête.

Violation de l'article 6 §§ 1 et 3 c) de la Convention (droit à l'assistance d'un avocat).
La Cour juge que le Gouvernement italien n'est pas parvenu à démontrer que la restriction de l'accès de Mme Knox à un avocat, lors de l' audition du 6 novembre 2007 à 5 h 45 – alors qu'elle faisait l'objet d'une accusation en matière pénale - n'a pas porté une atteinte irrémédiable à l'équité du procès dans son ensemble.

Violation de l'article 6 §§ 1 et 3 e) de la Convention (droit à l'assistance d'un interprète).
La Cour juge que les autorités ont omis d' apprécier le comportement de l'interprète (qui s'était attribuée un rôle de médiatrice et qui avait acquis une attitude maternelle envers Mme Knox pendant que cette dernière formulait sa version des faits), d'évaluer si ses fonctions d'interprète avaient été exercées selon les garanties prévues par l'article 6 §§ l et 3 e) de la Convention, et de considérer si ce comportement avait eu un impact sur l'issue de la procédure pénale entamée à l'encontre de Mme Knox. Pour la Cour, ce défaut initial a eu des répercussions sur d'autres droits et a compromis l' équité de la procédure dans son ensemble.


Mesures individuelles

a. Satisfaction équitable

Pour cette affaire, les sommes allouées pour dommage moral (10.400 euros) et pour frais et dépens (8 .000 euros) ont été payées le 29 novembre 2019 avec un peu de retard, imputable non seulement à la documentation qui était incomplète pour procéder au paiement, mais également à la procédure de paiement par le biais de la Banque d'Italie s'agissant d'un paiement hors de l'U.M.E.


Mesures générales

Publication, diffusion, traduction

L'arrêt de la Cour a été traduit et a fait l'objet de larges mesures de publication et de diffusion le 11 février 2019, non seulement par l'envoi de ce dernier aux juridictions impliquées mais aussi par la publication sur la banque de données de la Cour de Cassation Italgiure WEB ainsi que sur le site web du Ministère de la Justice.
___

Permanent Mission of Italy to the Council of Europe

Case of Knox v. Italy
(Application No. 76577/13)
Judgment 24/01/2019
Final 24/06/2019

Communication from the Government

Introductory summary of the case

The case concerns proceedings relating to the conviction of Amanda Knox for malicious false denunciation {calunnia}. During an interrogation which took place on November 6, 2007, Ms Knox had accused the manager of a pub of killing her roommate. The manager was cleared subsequently, and Ms Knox was sentenced to three years' imprisonment for calunnia.

In its judgment of 24 January 2019, which became final on 24 June 2019, the European Court of Human Rights declared, unanimously, that there had been{that is, Italy had committed a}: Violation of the procedural aspect (investigation) of Article 3 (prohibition of inhuman or degrading treatment) of the European Convention of Human Rights.

The Court held in particular that Ms Knox had not benefited from an investigation which could clarify the facts and possible responsibilities for her allegation that she allegedly suffered degrading treatment on 6 November 2007, when she was entirely under the control of the police. Indeed, despite her repeated complaints, the treatments complained of by Ms Knox were not investigated.

Violation of Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 c) of the Convention (right to the assistance of a lawyer).
The Court found that the Italian Government had failed to demonstrate that the restriction of Ms Knox's access to a lawyer, at the hearing on November 6, 2007 at 5:45 am – when she was the subject of a criminal charge – had not irremediably infringed {prejudiced} the fairness of the trial as a whole.

Violation of Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 e) of the Convention (right to the assistance of an interpreter).
The Court held that the authorities had failed to assess the conduct of the interpreter (who had assumed the role of mediator and who had acquired a maternal attitude towards Ms Knox while the latter was formulating her version of the facts), to assess whether her duties had been exercised in accordance with the guarantees provided for in Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 e) of the Convention, and to consider whether this behavior had an impact on the outcome of the criminal proceedings initiated against Ms Knox. For the Court, this initial defect had consequences that had repercussions on other rights and compromised the fairness of the proceedings as a whole.

Individual measures

a. Just satisfaction

For this case, the sums awarded for non-pecuniary damage (10,400 euros) and for costs and expenses (8,000 euros) were paid on November 29, 2019 with a little delay, attributable not only to incomplete documentation required to process the payment, but also to the procedure required by the Bank of Italy for a payment outside of the European Monetary Union.

General measures

Translation, Publication, and Dissemination

The judgment of the Court has been translated and has been the subject of wide-ranging publication and dissemination measures [as of] February 11, 2019, not only by sending the latter to the jurisdictions involved but also by the publication on the data bank of the Court of Cassation Italgiure WEB as well as on the website of the Ministry of Justice.
Source: http://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=DH-DD(2020)27F

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Old 27th February 2020, 07:49 PM   #1515
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In my book, there is nothing shameful about being a slut. A desire for sex is normal. I was one when I was 20. And what's good for the goose as the saying goes. But I'd hardly describe Amanda at 20 as a slut. It sounded pretty average for a healthy 20 year old.

Then there was the silliness about the vibrator. First Amanda described it as a gag gift. I think people especially women are embarrassed about masturbation and sex toys. It may have been a gag gift, but even if Amanda was giving it a workout every night, it's irrelevant.

And I don't buy for one second that the mere sight of a vibrator especially for a sexually active woman as Meredith was would come down with the vapors. That's a laugh if ever there was one.

My point about all this is the media engaged in tittilation at the expense of justice, women as a whole and Amanda specifically.
While the media carried and commercially exploited this message of misogyny, it was the Italian police and prosecutor Mignini who initiated it.

And there's a statement from the book Monster of Florence by Preston and Spezi (as I recall it): In a prosecution, the Italian authorities don't merely try to convict the accused, but to seek to destroy the accused.

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Old 27th February 2020, 08:39 PM   #1516
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In my book, there is nothing shameful about being a slut. A desire for sex is normal. I was one when I was 20. And what's good for the goose as the saying goes. But I'd hardly describe Amanda at 20 as a slut. It sounded pretty average for a healthy 20 year old.

Then there was the silliness about the vibrator. First Amanda described it as a gag gift. I think people especially women are embarrassed about masturbation and sex toys. It may have been a gag gift, but even if Amanda was giving it a workout every night, it's irrelevant.

And I don't buy for one second that the mere sight of a vibrator especially for a sexually active woman as Meredith was would come down with the vapors. That's a laugh if ever there was one.

My point about all this is the media engaged in tittilation at the expense of justice, women as a whole and Amanda specifically.
I agree completely. I always have to roll my eyes when we hear about how Meredith was allegedly so offended by the bunny vibe and condoms. I don't believe that for a minute. She obviously used condoms and was not averse to sleeping with a guy when she so chose. Giacomo wasn't her first, and for all we know, she slept with as many men as Amanda n the UK. Not that it matters.

As for the vibrator and condoms in the cosmetic case, Meredith was more amused by it than anything. From Robyn Butterworth's tesimony:
Quote:
GM: When Meredith told her and she then saw this ... this beauty case, was Meredith irritated with Amanda for this?

RB: Not really, but it seemed a little strange, it seemed a bit strange more than anything else.
Amy Frost testimony:
Quote:
I remember that as soon as she arrived, Amanda immediately placed a transparent beauty case that contained condoms and a vibrator into the bathroom. Meredith and I thought it was strange to arrive and do a thing like ... Meredith thought she was possibly a bit extrovert, weird.
I'd like to know if Amy testified in English or Italian. The Italian version of her testimony:
Quote:
Ricordo che Amanda appena arrivò mise subito in bagno un beauty che era chiaro e dentro c'erano dei preservativi e un vibratore. E Meredith pensò che fosse strano arrivare in quel giorno e fare una cosa che... Meredith pensava fosse un po' estroversa, stravagante.
Did Amy use the English word "weird" or something else? "Stravagante" can be translated as extravagant, eccentric, odd, strange, unusual or weird. Although similar, each word has a slightly different meaning. "Weird" tends to be negative while "unusual" or "eccentric" is seen as more positive. Frankly, I don't trust TMofMK's English translation because they would choose to use the most negative translation of 'weird'.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 27th February 2020 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:48 PM   #1517
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree completely. I always have to roll my eyes when we hear about how Meredith was allegedly so offended by the bunny vibe and condoms. I don't believe that for a minute. She obviously used condoms and was not averse to sleeping with a guy when she so chose. Giacomo wasn't her first, and for all we know, she slept with as many men as Amanda n the UK. Not that it matters.

As for the vibrator and condoms in the cosmetic case, Meredith was more amused by it than anything. From Robyn Butterworth's tesimony:


Amy Frost testimony:


I'd like to know if Amy testified in English or Italian. The Italian version of her testimony:

Did Amy use the English word "weird" or something else? "Stravagante" can be translated as extravagant, eccentric, odd, strange, unusual or weird. Although similar, each word has a slightly different meaning. "Weird" tends to be negative while "unusual" or "eccentric" is seen as more positive. Frankly, I don't trust TMofMK's English translation because they would choose to use the most negative translation of 'weird'.
Collins Reverso gives the following translations for "stravagante":

extravagant, fancy, whimsical, wacky, quirky, outlandish, eccentric, bizarre, strange, outrageous, erratic, kooky, flamboyant, odd, idiosyncratic

It may be interesting to see what English word was used originally, although the matter is not at all relevant as evidence.

Source: https://context.reverso.net/translat...sh/stravagante

Last edited by Numbers; 27th February 2020 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 27th February 2020, 11:05 PM   #1518
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Collins Reverso gives the following translations for "stravagante":

extravagant, fancy, whimsical, wacky, quirky, outlandish, eccentric, bizarre, strange, outrageous, erratic, kooky, flamboyant, odd, idiosyncratic

It may be interesting to see what English word was used originally, although the matter is not at all relevant as evidence.

Source: https://context.reverso.net/translat...sh/stravagante
That's what I mean about not trusting TMofMK's translation. The only way to know exactly what word Amy Frost used is to be able to see/hear her actual testimony...which we can't. If Amy actually used a word other than 'weird' it's yet more evidence of TMofMK's dishonesty and bias....as if we need it.

ETA: Chrome keeps translating the Italian into English!

Last edited by Stacyhs; 27th February 2020 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 27th February 2020, 11:32 PM   #1519
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
While the media carried and commercially exploited this message of misogyny, it was the Italian police and prosecutor Mignini who initiated it.

And there's a statement from the book Monster of Florence by Preston and Spezi (as I recall it): In a prosecution, the Italian authorities don't merely try to convict the accused, but to seek to destroy the accused.
Yes. And given this was in the backwoods of Italy with its Catholic insanity they just went with this nonsense. From the detective who was uncomfortable with Amanda's manner to knowing Amanda was guilty because of it. I find it hard to believe this would hapoen in Sweden or Norway or a more enlightened environment.

Hitchens was right. Religion poisons everything.
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Old 28th February 2020, 06:52 AM   #1520
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That's what I mean about not trusting TMofMK's translation. The only way to know exactly what word Amy Frost used is to be able to see/hear her actual testimony...which we can't. If Amy actually used a word other than 'weird' it's yet more evidence of TMofMK's dishonesty and bias....as if we need it.

ETA: Chrome keeps translating the Italian into English!
Auto translation can be turned on or off in Chrome for all languages or a specific language.

Go to the help function on your Chrome browser for details.
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