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Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , US-Israel relations

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Old 7th December 2017, 04:02 AM   #1
JJM 777
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A show of supremacy: USA moves embassy to Jerusalem

Just to ensure that nobody in the Middle East can fail to notice that USA sees itself as above everyone else, beyond criticism and discussion, too powerful to be prevented by anyone whosoever from doing whatever it pleases, USA moves its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

How helpful this slap on the face of the defenseless will be, remains to be seen.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:29 AM   #2
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Just to ensure that nobody in the Middle East can fail to notice that USA sees itself as above everyone else, beyond criticism and discussion, too powerful to be prevented by anyone whosoever from doing whatever it pleases, USA moves its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

How helpful this slap on the face of the defenseless will be, remains to be seen.
The embassy should be in whatever city the knesset is located.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:46 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The embassy should be in whatever city the knesset is located.
The state should not even be in the business of establishing embassies.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:47 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The state should not even be in the business of establishing embassies.
I disagree. As long as no tax dollars and involved and no foreign policy position is advocated, they are perfectly fine to exist.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:55 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I disagree. As long as no tax dollars and involved
How do you plan to build an embassy and man it with personnel without spending tax dollars?

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
and no foreign policy position is advocated,
Which is the prime raison d'être of embassies. Stuff like visas and support for citizens who get caught up in legal proceedings are done by consulates, not embassies.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
they are perfectly fine to exist.
So no. Why do you suddenly abandon your anarcho-capitalist principles and have become a staunch statist over this issue?
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
How do you plan to build an embassy and man it with personnel without spending tax dollars?
Voluntary subscription to get it built, and then some kind of naming contract to fund it in the long term.

"Welcome to the Jerusalem US Embassy by Hyatt. The Ambassador will see Hyatt Platinum and Gold rewards members today, other guests may have a longer wait......"
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:03 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So no. Why do you suddenly abandon your anarcho-capitalist principles and have become a staunch statist over this issue?
Because he doesn't have a firm underlying philosophy and just makes it up as he goes along.

Read enough of it and this becomes apparent.

Bob's primary aim in any discussion is to disagree, no more than that.
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:06 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Which is the prime raison d'être of embassies. Stuff like visas and support for citizens who get caught up in legal proceedings are done by consulates, not embassies.
That is technically not true. Visas and citizen support is also undertaken by embassies. It's just that embassies have more duties than consulates. Consulates are subordinate to embassies.
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:10 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
How do you plan to build an embassy and man it with personnel without spending tax dollars?


Which is the prime raison d'être of embassies. Stuff like visas and support for citizens who get caught up in legal proceedings are done by consulates, not embassies.


So no. Why do you suddenly abandon your anarcho-capitalist principles and have become a staunch statist over this issue?
A) donations
B) I never been a capitalist. I 100% support whatever economic system people develop when given the choice.
C) I have not said I was an anarchist but I am open to it. I get called a statist a lot (this isn't the only forum I post on).
D) I didn't realize the divide between consulate and embassy were so delineated. I do not support the existence of embassies, only consulates.
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:11 AM   #10
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And for completeness' sake: there's already a thread on this in US Politics.
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because he doesn't have a firm underlying philosophy and just makes it up as he goes along.

Read enough of it and this becomes apparent.

Bob's primary aim in any discussion is to disagree, no more than that.
How is my position different from the children thread where I talked about how public education is cool?
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A) donations
B) I never been a capitalist. I 100% support whatever economic system people develop when given the choice.
C) I have not said I was an anarchist but I am open to it. I get called a statist a lot (this isn't the only forum I post on).
D) I didn't realize the divide between consulate and embassy were so delineated. I do not support the existence of embassies, only consulates.
As to (D), see Amazer's correction to my post.

As to the rest, why do you deny the principles you've espoused in many other politics threads. It's like Peter denying Christ. So sad.

States should not be in the business of doing foreign policy, not even in the business of advocating for their citizens. Leave that all up to private initiative, then people can subscribe to whatever "consulate" they think will best have their interests at heart. And companies like United Fruit Company and Anaconda are perfectly capable themselves of looking after their interests abroad.
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:42 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
As to (D), see Amazer's correction to my post.

As to the rest, why do you deny the principles you've espoused in many other politics threads. It's like Peter denying Christ. So sad.

States should not be in the business of doing foreign policy, not even in the business of advocating for their citizens. Leave that all up to private initiative, then people can subscribe to whatever "consulate" they think will best have their interests at heart. And companies like United Fruit Company and Anaconda are perfectly capable themselves of looking after their interests abroad.
What principle did I espouse previously that I am not doing now? My position is the government has a role in protecting negative rights. That is where my posts in support of public education and the FDA comes in.
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Old 7th December 2017, 10:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What principle did I espouse previously that I am not doing now? My position is the government has a role in protecting negative rights. That is where my posts in support of public education and the FDA comes in.
What "negative rights" does an embassy enforce?
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Old 7th December 2017, 10:54 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
What "negative rights" does an embassy enforce?
No idea. I said they are perfectly fine to exist. Whether they are a cost effective means of advancing the objective is not something I'm commenting on.
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Old 7th December 2017, 11:36 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No idea. I said they are perfectly fine to exist. Whether they are a cost effective means of advancing the objective is not something I'm commenting on.
When you can't name those negative rights, then they're probably not there, so what government role is there in having an embassy in the first place?
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Old 7th December 2017, 11:41 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
When you can't name those negative rights, then they're probably not there, so what government role is there in having an embassy in the first place?
I can name some negative rights. I never took a position that there is an exhaustive list of negative rights. I see one of the roles of elected government as answering questions of what are the negative rights.

If there is no negative right, then there is no purpose for an embassy. If there are and the embassy advances it, then there is a purpose. I have no interest in those questions. My interest stops at identifying a valid logical basis for construction (if x is true, then y is permitted). If x is true is a different debate.
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Old 7th December 2017, 11:50 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I can name some negative rights. I never took a position that there is an exhaustive list of negative rights. I see one of the roles of elected government as answering questions of what are the negative rights.

If there is no negative right, then there is no purpose for an embassy. If there are and the embassy advances it, then there is a purpose. I have no interest in those questions. My interest stops at identifying a valid logical basis for construction (if x is true, then y is permitted). If x is true is a different debate.
Now you've moved your philosophy into hypothetical-land.

You could at least try to name one plausible negative right that an embassy is useful for enforcing. Otherwise it's tax money wasted (and no, it's not plausible you'll get enough donations to cover its costs when you're not even able to articulate its usefulness).
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Old 7th December 2017, 11:54 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Now you've moved your philosophy into hypothetical-land.

You could at least try to name one plausible negative right that an embassy is useful for enforcing. Otherwise it's tax money wasted (and no, it's not plausible you'll get enough donations to cover its costs when you're not even able to articulate its usefulness).
My philosophy has always been very heavily into hypothetical land. See the thread where I spent pages and pages arguing back and forth soundness vs valid logic as being necessary to call an argument reasonable.

I have no particular interest in making a case that embassies should be built. I care if they can exist under certain assumptions, and if they can, that putting one in a capital is probably useful.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:26 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Just to ensure that nobody in the Middle East can fail to notice that USA sees itself as above everyone else, beyond criticism and discussion, too powerful to be prevented by anyone whosoever from doing whatever it pleases, USA moves its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

How helpful this slap on the face of the defenseless will be, remains to be seen.
I don't see how that's a show of supremacy.

As far as I can tell the reason it wasn't done back in 1980 was to avoid ticking off people who irrationally hate Israel and who control a lot of oil, so it could be argued that the failure to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital for more than three decades was an act recognizing Arab supremacy, fearing retaliation like the oil embargo of 1973.

I'm not sure if Trump's move is a good move or not, but you can't do the same things forever without also expecting to maintain the status quo forever. If the Palestinians themselves will never change then the world must change around them.

The status quo hurts the Palestinians more than it does the Israelis.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Just to ensure that nobody in the Middle East can fail to notice that USA sees itself as above everyone else, beyond criticism and discussion, too powerful to be prevented by anyone whosoever from doing whatever it pleases, USA moves its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

How helpful this slap on the face of the defenseless will be, remains to be seen.
So you think the US should declare unsupremacy by telling Israel where its Capital, Seat of Government and Parliament should be is (despite all evidence to the contrary)?
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Old 8th December 2017, 12:52 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The embassy should be in whatever city the knesset is located.
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
So you think the US should declare unsupremacy by telling Israel where its Capital, Seat of Government and Parliament should be is (despite all evidence to the contrary)?
There is the problem of Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, which includes parts of Jerusalem, which is the reason why no foreign country has acknowledged Jerusalem as a whole as the capital of Israel only, while the Palestinian side of the problem is unsolved. The world wants to see some other solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict than one decided by mere brute USA-sponsored military force, whose symptom is the de facto status of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel only.

Now USA is saying that grabbing whatever you can with military force is OK, and will be acknowledged as legitimate.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If the Palestinians themselves will never change then the world must change around them. The status quo hurts the Palestinians more than it does the Israelis.
More legitimization of territorial gains taken by military force. The world is trying to avoid that, because the next step is everyone else trying the same with their armies. Humanity has been there for tens of thousands of years, and we are getting smart enough to want to replace brute caveman force with civilized negotiation based on human rights. We want a world where nobody grabs land from someone else than then treats it as if it were their own. That is what the world is reluctant to acknowledge, for good reasons.

Last edited by JJM 777; 8th December 2017 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:19 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Voluntary subscription to get it built, and then some kind of naming contract to fund it in the long term.

"Welcome to the Jerusalem US Embassy by Hyatt. The Ambassador will see Hyatt Platinum and Gold rewards members today, other guests may have a longer wait......"
Nope.

We are going to build an embassy in Jerusalem...and the Palestinians can PAY for it!!
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:50 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Now USA is saying that grabbing whatever you can with military force is OK, and will be acknowledged as legitimate.
That is what trump is actually saying. But acknowledging that the embassy may need to meet in person with members of the Knesset, so have it close to the Knesset, is not an endorsement of where they built the Knesset. Even if you don't want Jerusalem to be the capital, having the embassy there makes it easier to scold the politicians.
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Old 8th December 2017, 02:02 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is what trump is actually saying. But acknowledging that the embassy may need to meet in person with members of the Knesset, so have it close to the Knesset, is not an endorsement of where they built the Knesset. Even if you don't want Jerusalem to be the capital, having the embassy there makes it easier to scold the politicians.
It's not the 15th century... all that can be done better with modern technology

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Old 8th December 2017, 02:05 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
It's not the 15th century... all that can be done better with modern technology

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Technology can be a better communications option than sitting in the same room? I would like to see the study on that.

Also, if technology makes it moot, putting it there for poor communication reasons is still not an endorsement.

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Old 8th December 2017, 02:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is what trump is actually saying. But acknowledging that the embassy may need to meet in person with members of the Knesset, so have it close to the Knesset, is not an endorsement of where they built the Knesset. Even if you don't want Jerusalem to be the capital, having the embassy there makes it easier to scold the politicians.
That seems a bad reason. The Knesset is the Israeli equivalent of the US Congress. Ambassadors and their deputies don't primarily talk with MPs, but with government ministers.
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Old 8th December 2017, 03:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Technology can be a better communications option than sitting in the same room? I would like to see the study on that.

Also, if technology makes it moot, putting it there for poor communication reasons is still not an endorsement.
It would be rather uncommon for ambassadors or their deputies to deal with individual MP's. The government yes... MP's rarely if ever.

So chances of them having the need to sit in the same room are close to zero.

And you might not think it's an endorsement by putting the embassy there... the thing is that plenty of people do believe that it is an endorsement. Enough people evidently that all other presidents till now have wisely chosen to not put the embassy in Jerusalem.
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Old 8th December 2017, 03:05 AM   #29
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Just out of curiosity: how much will the move cost?

Security for the new site must be off the scale, nevermind finding a location.
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Old 8th December 2017, 03:54 AM   #30
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I don't think Trump provided any rationale for how moving the embassy helps America, improves the chances of peace, or is even in Israel's best interest. What actual problem does the move solve? Does solving that problem justify the cost in money and political repercussions?

Supporters of this move ought to have answers.
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Old 8th December 2017, 05:21 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I don't think Trump provided any rationale for how moving the embassy helps America, improves the chances of peace, or is even in Israel's best interest. What actual problem does the move solve? Does solving that problem justify the cost in money and political repercussions?

Supporters of this move ought to have answers.
I think the rational is that it helps cement his support amoung the Evangelicals that he promised this to. Their rational is that it hastens the Rapture at which point they nolonger have to worry about anything.

I'll leave it to others to comment on how appropriate this is as a basis for setting foreign policy.
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Old 8th December 2017, 05:50 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
It would be rather uncommon for ambassadors or their deputies to deal with individual MP's. The government yes... MP's rarely if ever.

So chances of them having the need to sit in the same room are close to zero.

And you might not think it's an endorsement by putting the embassy there... the thing is that plenty of people do believe that it is an endorsement. Enough people evidently that all other presidents till now have wisely chosen to not put the embassy in Jerusalem.
I don't think it is rare. Googling news stories it seems to be a regular occurrence in countries.
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Old 8th December 2017, 06:04 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I think the rational is that it helps cement his support amoung the Evangelicals that he promised this to. Their rational is that it hastens the Rapture at which point they nolonger have to worry about anything.
Obviously, the unrest it has provoked is a sign of the beginning of Tribulation, which precedes the Rapture.

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I'll leave it to others to comment on how appropriate this is as a basis for setting foreign policy.
A subset of evangelicals are Christian Zionists, who think that all Jews living in the Holy Land is a prerequisite for the Rapture. They include Glenn Beck, Ted Cruz, Jerry Fallwell and John Hagee. The only logical conclusion I can draw is that Hitler must be their biggest hero.
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Old 8th December 2017, 07:09 AM   #34
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Rapture happened long ago- why else would there be such a high percentage of ******** around?
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Old 8th December 2017, 07:40 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
There is the problem of Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, which includes parts of Jerusalem, which is the reason why no foreign country has acknowledged Jerusalem as a whole as the capital of Israel only, while the Palestinian side of the problem is unsolved.
Is the embassy going to be built in the parts of Jerusalem that are disputed?

Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
The world wants to see some other solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict than one decided by mere brute USA-sponsored military force, whose symptom is the de facto status of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel only.
If that were true then the world should be putting pressure on both sides to come to the negotiation table and negotiate. I don’t see that any pressure is being applied to the Palestinian side, and I think it’s unrealistic to expect a status quo to be maintained for generation after generation.

Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Now USA is saying that grabbing whatever you can with military force is OK, and will be acknowledged as legitimate.
How does it say that?

Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
More legitimization of territorial gains taken by military force. The world is trying to avoid that, because the next step is everyone else trying the same with their armies. Humanity has been there for tens of thousands of years, and we are getting smart enough to want to replace brute caveman force with civilized negotiation based on human rights. We want a world where nobody grabs land from someone else than then treats it as if it were their own. That is what the world is reluctant to acknowledge, for good reasons.
I’d also remind you that when Israel did take the West Bank, it was taken from an illegally occupying power, i.e. Jordan. Similarly, the Gaza Strip was captured from Egypt, who was illegally occupying it at the time. Prior to these illegal occupations, the region that is now Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank were part of an integral whole that was the British Mandate of Palestine.
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Old 8th December 2017, 07:55 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Obviously, the unrest it has provoked is a sign of the beginning of Tribulation, which precedes the Rapture.


A subset of evangelicals are Christian Zionists, who think that all Jews living in the Holy Land is a prerequisite for the Rapture. They include Glenn Beck, Ted Cruz, Jerry Fallwell and John Hagee. The only logical conclusion I can draw is that Hitler must be their biggest hero.
Hitler's a Godsent hero to Hagee, certainly.

So he [Theodore Herzl] went to the Jews of Europe and said, "I want you to come and join me in the land of Israel". So few went, Herzl went into depression. Those who came founded Israel; those who did not went through the hell of the Holocaust. Then God sent a hunter. A hunter is someone who comes with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says — Jeremiah righty? — "they shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and out of the holes of the rocks", meaning: there's no place to hide. And that will be offensive to some people. Well, dear heart, be offended: I didn't write it. Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said, "my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel". Today Israel is back in the land and they are at Ezekiel 37 and 8. They are physically alive but they're not spiritually alive. Now how is God going to cause the Jewish people to come spiritually alive and say, "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He is God"?
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Old 8th December 2017, 08:58 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Is the embassy going to be built in the parts of Jerusalem that are disputed?
It's going to be the yugest, biggest embassy that you've ever seen. It's going to be more yuger than the Al Aqsa Mosque, no, even more yuger than the whole Temple Mount and so yuge you can see it in Mecca and in Rome.

Now for the serious answer: we don't know, Trump has not said that AFAIK. He hasn't denied it either, and frankly, with him everything is possible. Last night, Dutch Labour leader Lodewijk Asscher (a Jew) said that the move is like a "bull raging through a China shop where half of the cups and saucers are broken to begin with".

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If that were true then the world should be putting pressure on both sides to come to the negotiation table and negotiate. I don’t see that any pressure is being applied to the Palestinian side, and I think it’s unrealistic to expect a status quo to be maintained for generation after generation.
You're putting that as if the USA has ever put pressure on Israel. Quod non. The USA has the simplest and most effective pressure lever ever: money. American aid to Israel is $1bn/year civilian and $2bn/year military. Has the USA ever threatened to cut that aid? No. Every time the IDF bulldozes a Palestinian house, because a cousin twice removed committed a terrorist action against Israel, that bulldozing is sponsored by the USA.
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Old 8th December 2017, 09:01 AM   #38
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Is the embassy going to be built in the parts of Jerusalem that are disputed?



If that were true then the world should be putting pressure on both sides to come to the negotiation table and negotiate. I don’t see that any pressure is being applied to the Palestinian side, and I think it’s unrealistic to expect a status quo to be maintained for generation after generation.



How does it say that?



I’d also remind you that when Israel did take the West Bank, it was taken from an illegally occupying power, i.e. Jordan. Similarly, the Gaza Strip was captured from Egypt, who was illegally occupying it at the time. Prior to these illegal occupations, the region that is now Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank were part of an integral whole that was the British Mandate of Palestine.
Are you suggesting that the residents of Gaza etc were illegally occupying their own homes, and that legality was achieved only when Zionist settlers took over these areas?
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Old 8th December 2017, 09:32 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Are you suggesting that the residents of Gaza etc were illegally occupying their own homes, and that legality was achieved only when Zionist settlers took over these areas?
No. Stupid straw man is stupid.

What I said was that while the Gaza Strip was occupied by Egypt it was an illegal occupation. Ditto with Jordan's occupation of the West Bank.
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Old 8th December 2017, 09:53 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
No. Stupid straw man is stupid.

What I said was that while the Gaza Strip was occupied by Egypt it was an illegal occupation. Ditto with Jordan's occupation of the West Bank.
What then is the relevance of that alleged fact, as far as settlements in the occupied areas are concerned? I say it makes no difference at all.

Do you say that Syria was in illegal occupation of Golan prior to 1967? If not, do you condemn the subsequent Zionist clearance and settlement, and Israeli annexation, of that region, which we have discussed in the past?
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