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Tags Russia-Ukraine relations , Ukraine incidents , Ukraine issues , vladimir putin

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Old 27th February 2015, 02:40 PM   #81
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Default is a much more credible threat than nuclear weapons, and an even more devastating prospect. Putin will have the financial world on his side.
To whom? Unlike in 1998, Russia has substantial siezable assets in the West. Plus of course the economic chaos that would follow would probably unseat even Putler.

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Old 27th February 2015, 03:09 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So serving regular forces are 'volunteering' and the army is letting them go to a foreign country and fight against a legitimate Government?
Do you have any evidence to present that the passports are taken from serving regular forces or is this just your personal belief?

Do you think there aren't any volunteers, such as reservists or ex-military etc? If so, why are there recruitment centers for volunteers being run openly in several Russian cities? Have the Russians lost track of their own serving regular forces so that they have to try and get them back that way?

On what basis do you consider the government legitimate? You do know the interim government was both unconstitutional and considered illegitimate by a majority of the population in the regions under consideration? That's already two bases for legitimacy down, the constitution and the population.

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Can you think of any other country that would let it's army go and fight as volunteers for an Insurgency fighting against a European Government?
There are French, Spanish, Italian, Portugese and Greek volunteers fighting alongside the rebels. Does this by your logic mean that showing their passports would be evidence of invasion by those governments?

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It's ridiculous
What is? The statement that P(civilian passport | volunteer) > P(civilian passport | active military) or Bayesian inference in general?

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ANy Russian serving military in the Ukraine are there on the orders of their Government.
Completely agree as well as completely besides the point. The question isn't whether there is Russian serving military in Ukraine but whether a bunch of civilian passports constitutes evidence for such.

Last edited by caveman1917; 27th February 2015 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 27th February 2015, 03:22 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
To whom? Unlike in 1998, Russia has substantial siezable assets in the West.
Are those Russian state assets, or the assets of Russian nationals?

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Plus of course the economic chaos that would follow would probably unseat even Putler.
He's a gambler, in my opinion. Not so degenerate as to use nuclear weapons, but default? Bluff or not?

June's just round the corner so we'll soon see.
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Old 27th February 2015, 03:33 PM   #84
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I agree that the Russian passports would mean little on their own - but they are not.

The social media postings of Russian troops geolocated to within Ukraine are stronger evidence of Russian involvement.

The Russian tactical reconnaissance drone is evidence of Russian violations of Ukrainian airspace - and is consistent with witness reports of drones preceding artillary strikes

The commercial satellite images showing tracks leading to launch marks within Russia and pointing to a crater field in Ukraine is pretty convincing evidence of direct Russian military involvement

The captured foot patrol of Russian paratroopers captured at least 4-hours walk inside the border is also sufficient evidence on its own to confirm Russian violations of Ukrainian soverign territory (as were the "Little Green Men" in the Crimea)


The interview with Igor Strelkov, where he admitted that he was an FSB colonel and under instruction from Russia is pretty strong evidence of Russian involvement.

Stories of the Russian war widows who say that their husband was killed in Ukraine are also consistent with this.
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Old 27th February 2015, 04:06 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I agree that the Russian passports would mean little on their own - but they are not.
Poroshenko still seems to be using them to bolster a weak case, ironically in doing so proving more about the existence of Russian volunteers than regular forces.

Quote:
The social media postings of Russian troops geolocated to within Ukraine are stronger evidence of Russian involvement.
Always be careful with evidence from social media posts, see CLEAN SWEEP
independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/gchqs-spy-toolkit-leaked-documents-reveal-how-uk-manipulates-information-online-9606043.html

Welcome to information warfare

Quote:
The Russian tactical reconnaissance drone is evidence of Russian violations of Ukrainian airspace - and is consistent with witness reports of drones preceding artillary strikes

The commercial satellite images showing tracks leading to launch marks within Russia and pointing to a crater field in Ukraine is pretty convincing evidence of direct Russian military involvement
True, cross-border artillery fire has been noted from both sides though. Stories are never as one-sided as they appear.

Quote:
The captured foot patrol of Russian paratroopers captured at least 4-hours walk inside the border is also sufficient evidence on its own to confirm Russian violations of Ukrainian soverign territory (as were the "Little Green Men" in the Crimea)
Now that is indeed decent evidence. While it certainly leaves no doubt about Russian violation of Ukrainian territory, it still falls way short of proving the massive invasions that Poroshenko claims keep happening to his country.

Quote:
The interview with Igor Strelkov, where he admitted that he was an FSB colonel and under instruction from Russia is pretty strong evidence of Russian involvement.
In other interviews he has also claimed to be calling in favors from his old buddies in the FSB and military. So, in my view, rather than him being directly controlled by the Kremlin it looks more like they have a sort of symbiotic relation in this.

Quote:
Stories of the Russian war widows who say that their husband was killed in Ukraine are also consistent with this.
Those are hard to verify though.

In any case, that Russia is involved in this mess is clear, but so is the US/EU. The one thing that seems to be forgotten in this cold war type hysteria and exaggerations by all sides is the perspective of the population of Donbass. Which, judging by my knowledge of the evidence - which consists in following the events by reference to opinion polls and other such data - do have some valid claims to make here, up to and including independence.
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Old 27th February 2015, 04:30 PM   #86
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Another Day, Another Putin apologist.
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Old 27th February 2015, 04:35 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Another Day, Another Putin apologist.
Brilliant. Let's overthrow a government against the will of the population, install an unconstitutional government that such population considers illegitimate in order to enforce policies against the will of the population, and when they rebel and want to hold a referendum to be able to have their own say let's attack them, kill them by the thousands, cut of their pensions and other income and restrict their access to humanitarian aid. And when someone says "maybe you're not doing this the right way" let's call him a "Putin apologist".

Did you come up with such glorious insight all by yourself?

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Old 27th February 2015, 05:13 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Another Day, Another Putin apologist.
Vladimir Putin is being advised by alien reptiles called Nordics according to British local official.

mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/vladimir-putin-advised-aliens-councillor-5213887

Is anyone contradicting this with evidence a Putin apologist in your demagogic garbled "logic"?

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Old 27th February 2015, 05:51 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Vladimir Putin is being advised by alien reptiles called Nordics according to British local official.

mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/vladimir-putin-advised-aliens-councillor-5213887

Is anyone contradicting this with evidence a Putin apologist in your demagogic garbled "logic"?
Crazy Local British Official is crazy. Example apropos to Putin apologizing? Not.
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Old 27th February 2015, 05:53 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Brilliant. Let's overthrow a government against the will of the population, install an unconstitutional government that such population considers illegitimate in order to enforce policies against the will of the population, and when they rebel and want to hold a referendum to be able to have their own say let's attack them, kill them by the thousands, cut of their pensions and other income and restrict their access to humanitarian aid. And when someone says "maybe you're not doing this the right way" let's call him a "Putin apologist".

Did you come up with such glorious insight all by yourself?
Who is this " let's" you are referring to? Ukrainians? Lizard people?
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Old 27th February 2015, 05:59 PM   #91
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Parubiy traveled on to the USA and met with his ideological counterparts like McCain and the cookie monster:



Welcome to the forum, caveman1917. Interesting posts. LaTeX parser has been but isn't.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:52 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Who is this " let's" you are referring to? Ukrainians? Lizard people?
The political leaders of the Maidan revolution/coup, who then installed themselves as the interim government, and their Western backers. I thought that was clear from context. The "population" being referred to is the population of Crimea and Donbass, whose perspective - as determined by analyzing various opinion polls - I choose to take in this. Personally I find that the most intellectually honest position given that I consider the will of the people to be of primary importance in these affairs, and it certainly beats spending my time watching two (or worse, one) propaganda machines trying to outdo eachother.

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Old 27th February 2015, 06:57 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Crazy Local British Official is crazy. Example apropos to Putin apologizing? Not.
I believe you are missing the point. The point is that just because some official makes a claim in the media about Putin doing something doesn't mean that refuting such claim constitutes "Putin apologism".

Calling someone refuting a claim about X an "X apologist" is dishonest demagoguery since the "apologist" part implicitly assumes that the claim being refuted is in fact true.
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Old 27th February 2015, 07:07 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The political leaders of the Maidan revolution/coup, who then installed themselves as the interim government, and their Western backers. I thought that was clear from context. The "population" being referred to is the population of Crimea and Donbass, whose perspective - as determined by various opinion polls - I choose to take in this.
How were they "installed" by their Western backers?
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Old 27th February 2015, 07:37 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
How were they "installed" by their Western backers?
I didn't say they were installed by their Western backers, I said they installed themselves (with the backing of the West-Ukrainian pro-EU protests, and the backing of the US/EU).
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Old 27th February 2015, 08:00 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I didn't say they were installed by their Western backers, I said they installed themselves (with the backing of the West-Ukrainian pro-EU protests, and the backing of the US/EU).
Is "Let's overthrow" then meaning that the actual act of overthrowing was accomplished solely by the Ukrainians, and thus "Let's" refers to Ukrainians, or did the Western backers actually have a significant hand in the overthrow?
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Old 27th February 2015, 08:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Is "Let's overthrow" then meaning that the actual act of overthrowing was accomplished solely by the Ukrainians, and thus "Let's" refers to Ukrainians
West-Ukrainians, or rather the political factions that are dominant in West-Ukraine. There's also an East-Ukraine that had a totally different perspective on this, pretending that the West-Ukrainian perspective is simply Ukrainian and thereby not considering the East's point of view is one of the major factors that led to this mess.

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or did the Western backers actually have a significant hand in the overthrow?
I don't know, and it depends on how you define "significant". It would be naive to assume they didn't have a hand in it, but to what extent? Maybe someone else who's analyzed that aspect more closely can tell. The Western backers were certainly happy about it at least.

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Old 27th February 2015, 08:41 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
West-Ukrainians, or rather the political factions that are dominant in West-Ukraine. There's also an East-Ukraine that had a totally different perspective on this, pretending that the West-Ukrainian perspective is simply Ukrainian and thereby not considering the East's point of view is one of the major factors that led to this mess.



I don't know, and it depends on how you define "significant". It would be naive to assume they didn't have a hand in it, but to what extent? Maybe someone else who's analyzed that aspect more closely can tell. The Western backers were certainly happy about it at least.
Why would it be naive to assume they didn't have a hand in it? Is it naive to expect evidence before making an assumption?
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Old 27th February 2015, 09:03 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Brilliant. Let's overthrow a government against the will of the population, install an unconstitutional government that such population considers illegitimate in order to enforce policies against the will of the population, and when they rebel and want to hold a referendum to be able to have their own say let's attack them, kill them by the thousands, cut of their pensions and other income and restrict their access to humanitarian aid. And when someone says "maybe you're not doing this the right way" let's call him a "Putin apologist".

Did you come up with such glorious insight all by yourself?


Prove the the US and the West were behind the overthrow of the Ukranian Government...and it seems a majority of Ukranian citizens supported the move.
Seems like Pro Russian Ukranians are the only Ukranians who matter in your book.
And,yeah, you seem to pretty much carrying Putin's water,as the saying goes.
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Old 27th February 2015, 09:05 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
West-Ukrainians, or rather the political factions that are dominant in West-Ukraine. There's also an East-Ukraine that had a totally different perspective on this, pretending that the West-Ukrainian perspective is simply Ukrainian and thereby not considering the East's point of view is one of the major factors that led to this mess.



I.
Ironic that in your rant in reply to my saying you an apologist for PUtin, you seemed to imply that only East Ukranians opinions are worthy.
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Old 28th February 2015, 02:25 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Are those Russian state assets, or the assets of Russian nationals?
Assets of Russian state companies.

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He's a gambler, in my opinion. Not so degenerate as to use nuclear weapons, but default? Bluff or not?

June's just round the corner so we'll soon see.
Deafult would hurt western economy and likely see him hanged. Bluff or not, the risk probably isn't worth it.

Another Russian opposition leader met with an early demise. He was shot four times in the back while taking a stroll through Moscow. Putin believes it was an assasination.
Not exactly actions of a ruler who isn't afraid of unrest, really.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/27/eu...led/index.html

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Old 28th February 2015, 05:27 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Why would it be naive to assume they didn't have a hand in it? Is it naive to expect evidence before making an assumption?
Superpowers have a documented tendency to meddle, it's what they do. It can range from moral support to a certain faction, over political pressure to outright executing a coup. There's certainly evidence for at least political pressure.
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Old 28th February 2015, 05:36 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Ironic that in your rant in reply to my saying you an apologist for PUtin, you seemed to imply that only East Ukranians opinions are worthy.
Not at all, I'm not sure where you got that from, it's just that their opinion is the one getting ignored here. The West attacked the East, not the other way around. The West-Ukrainians considered this a democratic revolution against a president that wasn't representing them, the East-Ukrainians considered this an illegitimate coup against their democratically elected government. Neither is objectively more true or false, both are valid and worthy opinions, but one of them is obviously getting ignored in all this.
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Old 28th February 2015, 05:49 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Prove the the US and the West were behind the overthrow of the Ukranian Government
Why should I prove something I never claimed?

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...and it seems a majority of Ukranian citizens supported the move.
Yes the whole whopping 51% of them, meaning a large majority in the West supported the move and a large majority in the East opposed it. As was to be completely expected.

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Seems like Pro Russian Ukranians are the only Ukranians who matter in your book.
"Pro Russian Ukrainians"? That's called framing a conflict. Of the majority of East Ukrainians who wanted self-rule after the revolution/coup only a minority wanted to join Russia. Only in Crimea was there a strong majority for joining Russia.

Quote:
And,yeah, you seem to pretty much carrying Putin's water,as the saying goes.
It's a completely silly claim, I've already explained where I'm coming from. I have a much better claim of accusing you of carrying Poroshenko's water but I'd rather refrain from that sort of cheap demagoguery.
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Old 28th February 2015, 07:03 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Always be careful with evidence from social media posts, see CLEAN SWEEP
independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/gchqs-spy-toolkit-leaked-documents-reveal-how-uk-manipulates-information-online-9606043.html

Welcome to information warfare
I haven't seen anyone claiming that the posts such as "we pounded Ukraine all day" were not posted by Russian troops.

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True, cross-border artillery fire has been noted from both sides though. Stories are never as one-sided as they appear.

Can you please link to the evidence for mass artillery strikes by Ukrainian troops on Russian positions within Russia?
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Old 28th February 2015, 08:01 AM   #106
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Looks like Putin is too much of a coward to accept an opposing viewpoint without killing the guy.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/28/europe...led/index.html
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Old 28th February 2015, 08:06 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Superpowers have a documented tendency to meddle, it's what they do. It can range from moral support to a certain faction, over political pressure to outright executing a coup. There's certainly evidence for at least political pressure.
How are incidents that have occurred at some unspecified time in the past with previous administrations a sound basis to assume they are currently occurring under a different administration? Wouldn't it be even more nave then to fail to assume Putin is covertly invading another portion of Ukraine ala Crimea?
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Old 28th February 2015, 10:21 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I haven't seen anyone claiming that the posts such as "we pounded Ukraine all day" were not posted by Russian troops.
I didn't say they weren't, I merely said to be careful with using evidence based on social media. It was more bringing attention to an aspect of this war that is getting overlooked than refuting the specific posts you were using. Evidence of this sort at the very least needs to be corroborated with other independent lines of evidence, which in this case it is. The point is more relevant about the MH17 case which is entirely built on "social media and common sense".

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Can you please link to the evidence for mass artillery strikes by Ukrainian troops on Russian positions within Russia?
I said "cross-border artillery fire has been noted from both sides", such as here (as well as several other incidents by both sides preceding this one)
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10965483/Russia-warns-of-targeted-strikes-against-Ukrainian-forces-as-border-tensions-mount.html

I'm not aware of any independent verification or refutation of these incidents, it seems there is not much interest in doing the same analysis with regards to the shell impacts on Russian territory as those on Ukrainian territory, and I for one don't have the necessary skills to do so.
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Old 28th February 2015, 10:31 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Parubiy traveled on to the USA and met with his ideological counterparts like McCain and the cookie monster:

As always, the best way to get people to take you seriously, is to refer to people by silly juvenile nicknames.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I didn't say they weren't, I merely said to be careful with using evidence based on social media.
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Old 28th February 2015, 10:42 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
How are incidents that have occurred at some unspecified time in the past with previous administrations a sound basis to assume they are currently occurring under a different administration?
If I drop a bottle of coke it falls to the ground, if I drop a bottle of fanta it falls to the ground, if I drop a bottle of orange juice it falls to the ground, is that a sound basis to assume that if I drop a bottle of water it will also fall to the ground?

As shown by the leaked diplomatic cables as well as declassified earlier documents, changes in administration have never had much effect on the meddling that has been going on. It thus seems that the burden of proof is on the one who claims that this change in administration is somehow to be different.

That the West has been backing the West-Ukrainian political factions is hardly contentious, just like it would be hardly contentious that Russia has been backing the East-Ukrainian political factions. The question is to what extent?

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Wouldn't it be even more nave then to fail to assume Putin is covertly invading another portion of Ukraine ala Crimea?
Certainly. Note that I said "it's what superpowers do", not "it's what only the West does". Though calling it invasion seems to be exaggerating things, if Russia really invaded they would've been in Kiev already long ago. But they are for sure doing their part in all this.

As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter all that much anyway. My perspective is to support any action in a region that is line with the will of the population and oppose any action that contradicts it, no matter who's doing it. So I support the annexation of Crimea just as much as I would oppose any Russian annexation of Donbass, I support the pro-EU policies in West-Ukraine just as much as I oppose its use of military force to push those policies in East-Ukraine, I support the struggle of the militia to regain control over the Donbass region just as much as I would oppose them doing anything more than that (such as crossing into West-Ukraine), etc.
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Old 28th February 2015, 10:50 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Don't you agree that it would be a good thing to be cautionary with social media posts used as evidence? This sort of stuff doesn't get developed for the lulz after all.

Last edited by caveman1917; 28th February 2015 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 28th February 2015, 10:56 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter all that much anyway. My perspective is to support any action in a region that is line with the will of the population and oppose any action that contradicts it, no matter who's doing it. So I support the annexation of Crimea just as much as I would oppose any Russian annexation of Donbass, I support the pro-EU policies in West-Ukraine just as much as I oppose its use of military force to push those policies in East-Ukraine, I support the struggle of the militia to regain control over the Donbass region just as much as I would oppose them doing anything more than that (such as crossing into West-Ukraine), etc.
So who gives you the right to decide where the lines on the map are drawn - if Mariupol doesn't want to join the separatists do you also support that?

And what is your position on Chechnya?
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Old 28th February 2015, 11:07 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
So who gives you the right to decide where the lines on the map are drawn
Nobody gives me the right to decide where the lines on the map are drawn, but I have the right to decide for myself what position I personally defend and on what basis. I choose that basis to be self-determination. And I'm being upfront about the data and methods I use to reach those positions, not in the least to stop that "X apologist" nonsense.

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if Mariupol doesn't want to join the separatists do you also support that?
Of course, do you have data that suggests they don't? The latest data I have access to says the opposite. But if you can provide the data that shows they changed their minds on this, then yes I would support that. Why do you have to ask? You know the method and data I use to reach my conclusions.

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And what is your position on Chechnya?
I'm not familiar enough with it to say either way. All I really know about it is that there has been a war there recently. But it wouldn't be hard for anyone who knows more about it to deduce what would be my position.

Last edited by caveman1917; 28th February 2015 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 28th February 2015, 12:03 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If I drop a bottle of coke it falls to the ground, if I drop a bottle of fanta it falls to the ground, if I drop a bottle of orange juice it falls to the ground, is that a sound basis to assume that if I drop a bottle of water it will also fall to the ground?

As shown by the leaked diplomatic cables as well as declassified earlier documents, changes in administration have never had much effect on the meddling that has been going on. It thus seems that the burden of proof is on the one who claims that this change in administration is somehow to be different.

That the West has been backing the West-Ukrainian political factions is hardly contentious, just like it would be hardly contentious that Russia has been backing the East-Ukrainian political factions. The question is to what extent?



Certainly. Note that I said "it's what superpowers do", not "it's what only the West does". Though calling it invasion seems to be exaggerating things, if Russia really invaded they would've been in Kiev already long ago. But they are for sure doing their part in all this.

As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter all that much anyway. My perspective is to support any action in a region that is line with the will of the population and oppose any action that contradicts it, no matter who's doing it. So I support the annexation of Crimea just as much as I would oppose any Russian annexation of Donbass, I support the pro-EU policies in West-Ukraine just as much as I oppose its use of military force to push those policies in East-Ukraine, I support the struggle of the militia to regain control over the Donbass region just as much as I would oppose them doing anything more than that (such as crossing into West-Ukraine), etc.
Do you support Chechnya?

At what size does this right to self deternination end, family, block, neighborhood, town, valley?
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Old 28th February 2015, 12:17 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Looks like Putin is too much of a coward to accept an opposing viewpoint without killing the guy.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/28/europe...led/index.html
Let's see how the Putin fanboys justify this.....
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Old 28th February 2015, 12:31 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Do you support Chechnya?
As I said earlier I'm not familiar with Chechnya. But since everyone seems to be asking this I've typed in "chechnya opinion poll" in google and the first result is of a poll finding that 78% of Chechnyans want to remain part of Russia. So no, I don't support its independence based on that. Of course maybe I just stumbled on a statistical outlier, again I'm not familiar enough with it to be able to tell.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...of-Russia.html

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At what size does this right to self deternination end, family, block, neighborhood, town, valley?
In Ukraine the obvious level would be the oblasts (the 24 primary regions in which the country is divided). If that isn't satisfactory for some, say half an oblast strongly wants independence and the other half strongly doesn't want that, then that in my opinion means that in such instance the oblast would need to be redefined. In any case, doing it oblast-wise would be a good first step. A lot better than all that shooting that keeps going on there at least.

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Old 28th February 2015, 12:46 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's see how the Putin fanboys justify this.....
Poisoning the well with cheap demagogeury again?
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Old 28th February 2015, 01:05 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's see how the Putin fanboys justify this.....
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Poisoning the well with cheap demagogeury again?
So that's how.
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Old 28th February 2015, 01:08 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
So that's how.
How what? It's easy enough to identify the use of rhetorical devices like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Being skeptical, as well as writing on a skeptics forum, my first questions would have been "what is the evidence that it was Putin? What other hypotheses are there and what is the evidence for those?". But in the face of those tricks, just nevermind, demagogeury works doesn't it?

Last edited by caveman1917; 28th February 2015 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 28th February 2015, 01:42 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Assets of Russian state companies.
That would be assets of Russian nationals then.



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Deafult would hurt western economy and likely see him hanged. Bluff or not, the risk probably isn't worth it.
I don't think it's likely at all. The Russian economy is largely internal, and a lose-lose game where Russia loses less than the West can be sold as a win and a chance to show that old Russian mettle in adversity. Make-do and mend - it's less than a generation away.

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Another Russian opposition leader met with an early demise. He was shot four times in the back while taking a stroll through Moscow. Putin believes it was an assasination.
Not exactly actions of a ruler who isn't afraid of unrest, really.
Indeed not, and unlikely to be instigated by Putin. I think Nemtsov's party has a more credible position - this is probably down to nationalists, and Putin has created the environment in which they feel free to act.

It's far more likely that Nemtsov was killed for what he said about the Donbass war than any threat he might pose to Putin. The real threat to Putin is the nationalist tiger he thought to ride.

Some early arrests would be the Putin style.
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