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Tags Australia elections , Australia politics , Julie Bishop , Malcolm Turnbull , Tony Abbott

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Old 1st December 2017, 12:30 AM   #1281
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Of course they would have somewhere else to go. Only a few police officers would follow their religion so there are others that can help.
If what you say is true then it doesn't help your argument much. That said, the police force does have its problems with less than stellar officers and it is an ongoing problem.

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
And what does the bible say about civil servants?
About the only civil servants that I recall mentioned in the bible are tax collectors but the bible does say "Render unto Caesar ..."
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Old 1st December 2017, 03:02 AM   #1282
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Okay, this is the text of the Marriage Amendment (Definition and Religious Freedoms) Bill 2017 as read a third time. This is the bill that passed the Senate.

In Schedule 1, Part 1, Section 8 we see the addition a new subdivision to Part IV, Division 1 of the Marriage Act. This new subdivision is entitled "Subdivision D - Religious marriage celebrants" that allows existing civil celebrants to write to the Registrar of Marriage Celebrants and apply to be listed as a religious marriage celebrant instead of a civil celebrant.

While it's clear that this section is properly designed for religious minsters who are not part of a recognised denomination under section 26 of the Act (Subdivision A - Minsters of religion, recognised denominations) it also contains this:

Originally Posted by Marriage Amendment (Definition and Religious Freedoms) Bill 2017, Schedule 1, Part 1, Section 8
39DD - Transitional provisions for existing marriage celebrants


Marriage celebrants who wish to be religious marriage celebrants on the basis of their religious beliefs


(2) The Registrar of Marriage Celebrants must identify a person as a religious marriage celebrant on the register of marriage celebrants if:
(a) the person was registered as a marriage celebrant under Subdivision C of this Division immediately before Part 1 of Schedule 1 to the Marriage Amendment (Definition and Religious Freedoms) Act 2017 commenced; and

(b) the person gives the Registrar notice that the person wishes to be identified as a religious marriage celebrant on the register:
(i) in writing; and

(ii) in a form approved by the Registrar; and

(iii) within 90 days after Part 1 of Schedule 1 to the Marriage Amendment (Definition and Religious Freedoms) Act 2017 commences; and
(c) the choice is based on the person’s religious beliefs.
For clarity 39DD(1) applies to ministers of religions that are not recognised denominations.

So as you can see there's a provision here for existing celebrants who would normally not be permitted to become a "religious marriage celebrant" to become one.

On top of that they are adding in to section 47 (which is also being changed for religious freedom) the following:

Originally Posted by Marriage Amendment (Definition and Religious Freedoms) Bill 2017, Schedule 1, Part 1, Section 21
47A Religious marriage celebrants may refuse to solemnise marriages
(1) A religious marriage celebrant may refuse to solemnise a marriage despite anything in this Part, if the celebrant’s religious beliefs do not allow the celebrant to solemnise the marriage.

Grounds for refusal not limited by this section

(2) This section does not limit the grounds on which a religious marriage celebrant may refuse to solemnise a marriage.
Honestly, it looks to me like the "protections" you so desperately desire are already in there.
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Old 1st December 2017, 03:58 AM   #1283
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Okay, this is the text of the Marriage Amendment (Definition and Religious Freedoms) Bill 2017 as read a third time. This is the bill that passed the Senate.

In Schedule 1, Part 1, Section 8 we see the addition a new subdivision to Part IV, Division 1 of the Marriage Act. This new subdivision is entitled "Subdivision D - Religious marriage celebrants" that allows existing civil celebrants to write to the Registrar of Marriage Celebrants and apply to be listed as a religious marriage celebrant instead of a civil celebrant.

While it's clear that this section is properly designed for religious minsters who are not part of a recognised denomination under section 26 of the Act (Subdivision A - Minsters of religion, recognised denominations) it also contains this:



For clarity 39DD(1) applies to ministers of religions that are not recognised denominations.

So as you can see there's a provision here for existing celebrants who would normally not be permitted to become a "religious marriage celebrant" to become one.

On top of that they are adding in to section 47 (which is also being changed for religious freedom) the following:



Honestly, it looks to me like the "protections" you so desperately desire are already in there.
And even better, they have overlooked something. In the future a person who wishes to become a celebrant cannot take advantage of these things. So certain religious ministers who are not part of a recognised denomination would not be allowed to marry anyone because they will not marry two people of the same gender.
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Old 1st December 2017, 04:06 AM   #1284
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
And even better, they have overlooked something. In the future a person who wishes to become a celebrant cannot take advantage of these things. So certain religious ministers who are not part of a recognised denomination would not be allowed to marry anyone because they will not marry two people of the same gender.
Actually for someone to become a religious marriage celebrant in the future you would need to be a minister of a non-recognised denomination.
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Old 1st December 2017, 04:13 AM   #1285
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Actually for someone to become a religious marriage celebrant in the future you would need to be a minister of a non-recognised denomination.
You need written proof you can perform marriages on behalf of your church

How this means you have to be a minister escapes me
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Old 1st December 2017, 05:29 AM   #1286
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Actually for someone to become a religious marriage celebrant in the future you would need to be a minister of a non-recognised denomination.

How hard is that in Oz?

Here in the good ol' US of A you can do it online. For free.

Just a couple of examples;

https://www.ulc.org/

https://www.oministry.com/services/minister-guide/

The ULC even has a Minister Store. (That is so cool.)

Join ranks with such respected ministers as Stephen Colbert, Paul McCartney, Richard Branson, and Lady Gaga.
Quote:
Membership is open to anyone who feels called to join; the ULC welcomes individuals of all backgrounds and belief systems into the fold. Plus, unlike traditional religious organizations, we don't require years of training or expensive courses to become a member of the clergy. Becoming ordained is free, and can be done entirely online.
What are you waiting for?
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Old 1st December 2017, 07:16 AM   #1287
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You need written proof you can perform marriages on behalf of your church

How this means you have to be a minister escapes me
I'm sort of using the term that the Marriage Act uses. The term the Act uses is "minister of religion" which is defined as:

Originally Posted by Marriage Act 1961, Section 5
"minister of religion" means:

(a) a person recognised by a religious body or a religious organisation as having authority to solemnise marriages in accordance with the rites or customs of the body or organisation; or

(b) in relation to a religious body or a religious organisation in respect of which paragraph (a) is not applicable, a person nominated by:
(i) the head, or the governing authority, in a State or Territory, of that body or organisation; or

(ii) such other person or authority acting on behalf of that body or organisation as is prescribed;

to be an authorised celebrant for the purposes of this Act.
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How hard is that in Oz?
I don't actually know.
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:15 AM   #1288
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Honestly, it looks to me like the "protections" you so desperately desire are already in there.
I have seen that 90 day provision before. It appears to forestall any early legal action (unless a celebrant is put under the pump before he gets his "religious celebrant" status).

The problem comes when somebody new wants to be a religious celebrant after the act is proclaimed. If the registrar declines the application to be a religious celebrant or penalizes a celebrant by removing their religious celebrant status then a potential ground for action under section 116 of the constitution is opened up.
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Old 1st December 2017, 05:19 PM   #1289
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Then again, as I said, let the courts deal with it.
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Old 1st December 2017, 05:46 PM   #1290
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If practising a religion necessitates discriminating against certain groups of people - if an essential part of a religion's practice includes denying basic human rights to a certain segment of the population (see Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), then that religion is horrible and disgusting and needs to end.

I don't believe Christianity is that religion, and neither do millions of Christians in this country and across the world who support same-sex marriage.
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Old 1st December 2017, 06:20 PM   #1291
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
I'm sorry, but whatever you are smoking- throw it away

Yes we probably are closer to a `totalitarian regime' than we have been for a long time- but it is one OF religious extremists- to be specific- hard right ultra conservative christians and as such the only freedom of religion they want is the right of themselves to be the only ones

Many have commented on the hard right xtain extreme groups associated with the liberals, indeed it was the attempts to placate them that probably led to Abbotts demise- he wasnt extreme enough to keep them happy, but was waaay too extreme for the Australian public- most of who are either non religious or only tokenly so
Yeah the miniscule fraction of xtain extreme followers of JayZeus who influence the Liberals is probably smaller than the Islamian extreme followers of Allah who influence Labor.

Meantime No Religion is still the largest fraction of the Australian population.
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Old 1st December 2017, 07:11 PM   #1292
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Then again, as I said, let the courts deal with it.
That answers my question.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:14 PM   #1293
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That answers my question.
Psion10

I feel for your pain on this topic

But maybe......just maybe....

Quote:
You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between

You've got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium
Liable to walk upon the scene

To illustrate his last remark
Jonah in the whale, Noah in the ark
What did they do
Just when everything looked so dark

Man, they said we better, accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between
No, do not mess with Mister In-Between
Do you hear me?

Oh, listen to me children and-a you will hear
About the elininatin' of the negative
And the accent on the positive
And gather 'round me children if you're willin'
And sit tight while I start reviewin'
The attitude of doin' right

You've gotta accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between

You've got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom, down to the minimum
Otherwise pandemonium
Liable to walk upon the scene"
And things may not seem so bad
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Old 2nd December 2017, 12:54 AM   #1294
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Meanwhile, the Turnbull circus continues...

He's having such a hard time at the moment, I'm reminded of a scene from the Simpsons...

Sideshow-Bob standing in a field of discarded rakes. Every step he takes, he gets hit in the face, and shudders.

The watered-down Royal Commission into banks (and everything else so we don't have to look at the banks) may yet be interesting...
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Old 2nd December 2017, 01:34 AM   #1295
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Meanwhile, the Turnbull circus continues...

He's having such a hard time at the moment, I'm reminded of a scene from the Simpsons...

Sideshow-Bob standing in a field of discarded rakes. Every step he takes, he gets hit in the face, and shudders.

The watered-down Royal Commission into banks (and everything else so we don't have to look at the banks) may yet be interesting...
Royal commissions have a habit of getting out of control and not being as tame as the person who set them up wanted them to be. Plus they cost a fortune.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 01:45 AM   #1296
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Royal commissions have a habit of getting out of control and not being as tame as the person who set them up wanted them to be. Plus they cost a fortune.
Despite my pleasure in the **** Turnbull has found himself in, a Royal Commission into the banks is an expensive joke. In my view Australia has amongst the best banking systems in the world.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 01:47 AM   #1297
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Psion10

I feel for your pain on this topic

But maybe......just maybe....

Quote:
... (bursts into song) ...
And things may not seem so bad
I don't mean this to be as nasty an insult as it sounds but Julie Andrews sang it better.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 08:38 AM   #1298
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Despite my pleasure in the **** Turnbull has found himself in, a Royal Commission into the banks is an expensive joke. In my view Australia has amongst the best banking systems in the world.
You must have a very dim view of the rest of the world.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/ba...30-gzvv3k.html
http://www.theage.com.au/business/ba...30-gzw0rm.html
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Old 2nd December 2017, 11:41 AM   #1299
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
I don't view the Age as an authority of anything much when I comes to business. I'm a subscriber and it's good to have an alternative to News Ltd, but it's leftish sneering at big business is tiresome.

One of the main reasons we have remained without recession for these record number of years is the Four Pillar system.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 02:29 PM   #1300
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The draft terms of reference into the royal commission are here
http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnist...0171130-gzw6u6

Another souce that says it will "lead to cultural change" http://www.afr.com/street-talk/what-...0171201-gzwmm6

This covers a lot of ground. Cannot give a quote that summarises it. But argues that it is needed.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/o...15813b080ea8d1

But then you could argue newspapers are a CT.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 06:19 PM   #1301
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The draft terms of reference into the royal commission are here
http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnist...0171130-gzw6u6

Another souce that says it will "lead to cultural change" http://www.afr.com/street-talk/what-...0171201-gzwmm6

This covers a lot of ground. Cannot give a quote that summarises it. But argues that it is needed.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/o...15813b080ea8d1

But then you could argue newspapers are a CT.
Congratulations! Every reference you posted is behind a paywall.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 11:07 PM   #1302
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Congratulations! Every reference you posted is behind a paywall.
Plenty more where that came from. I am sure you could find some yourself.
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Old 4th December 2017, 05:48 PM   #1303
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Back on the same sex marriage issue again, we now have one Andrew Wallace in the news, talking about how he had trouble as a Catholic, condoning it. Now he has a daughter who has come out as gay so is having a rethink.

This sort of shallow thinking annoys the bejesus out of me. Why can't some people look at an issue, and find compassion and understanding for others, without it having to impact them directly.
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Old 7th December 2017, 12:05 AM   #1304
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Breaking News

The House of Representatives has just passed the 3rd reading of the SSM bill. Like in the Senate, every attempt to amend the bill was soundly defeated.

Although a division was called, only 4 MPs voted "no" and under standing orders, when less than 5 MPs vote "no" to a question, a formal tally is not done.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Each proposed amendment has to be debated and voted on. Any belief that the bill will "breeze through" falls under the category of "wishful thinking".
We will see. I stand by my prediction.
You were right and I was wrong.
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Old 7th December 2017, 12:06 AM   #1305
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Tories have been comprehensively smacked down as SSM bill passed without amendment. All the "religious freedom" falsehoods and distractions have been kicked into touch.
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Old 7th December 2017, 01:24 AM   #1306
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Tories have been comprehensively smacked down as SSM bill passed without amendment. All the "religious freedom" falsehoods and distractions have been kicked into touch.
I would suggest that the falsehoods have been kicked over the grand-stands, down the street and have bounced onto a train headed for the sticks.

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Old 7th December 2017, 02:19 AM   #1307
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It was excruciating. I was watching via the live blog on the Guardian as it was happening. Here's how it went down:

Here's an amendment. Let's talk about the amendment. Let's vote down the amendment.

Here's an amendment. Let's talk about the amendment. Let's vote down the amendment.

Here's an amendment. Let's talk about the amendment. Let's vote down the amendment.

Here's an amendment. I would like this amendment to be in two parts. Let's talk about the amendment. Let's vote down the first part of the amendment. Let's vote down the second part of the amendment.

Here's an amendment. Let's talk about the amendment. Let's vote down the amendment.

Question time! We'll shout at each other about the NBN for a while.

Here's an amendment. Let's talk about the amendment. Let's vote down the amendment.

Here's an amendment. Let's talk about the amendment. Can I make this amendment in two parts?

NO!!!

Okay, let's vote down the amendment.

No more amendments. Let's vote.

Yay! Gay people can get married.

Of course, a session of parliament would not be complete without a good Kattering, and we sure got Kattered today.
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Old 7th December 2017, 02:57 AM   #1308
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
All the "religious freedom" falsehoods and distractions have been kicked into touch.
Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I would suggest that the falsehoods have been kicked over the grand-stands, down the street and have bounced onto a train headed for the sticks.
I could point out that neither of you have actually rejoiced the fact that same sex couples can legally get married yet but that would result in another 10 pages of tarring and feathering.
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Old 7th December 2017, 03:45 AM   #1309
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Just looked on the two biggest Facebook pages for the No case. Neither has seen fit to even mention the result.

It is a long overdue day in Australian history. I suggest anyone involved in the wedding industry will be very busy over the next year or so as a huge backlog of people get married.
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Old 7th December 2017, 07:24 AM   #1310
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Just looked on the two biggest Facebook pages for the No case. Neither has seen fit to even mention the result.

It is a long overdue day in Australian history. I suggest anyone involved in the wedding industry will be very busy over the next year or so as a huge backlog of people get married.

Except, of course, for all the civil celebrants who quit the business in high dudgeon over being FORCED to marry faggots and lesbians.

It would be interesting to find out how many of those there are.
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Old 7th December 2017, 10:47 AM   #1311
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I could point out that neither of you have actually rejoiced the fact that same sex couples can legally get married yet but that would result in another 10 pages of tarring and feathering.
I'm equally rejoicing in the result and the anguish of the Tories. Last I looked I was allowed to do this.
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Old 7th December 2017, 11:39 AM   #1312
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Tony Abbot isn’t rejoicing.
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Old 7th December 2017, 01:10 PM   #1313
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Except, of course, for all the civil celebrants who quit the business in high dudgeon over being FORCED to marry faggots and lesbians.

It would be interesting to find out how many of those there are.
Probably not many. Where are their protests? I have not seen any. Please remember the valid arguments for the no case, well, have not seen any of those wither.
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Old 7th December 2017, 03:25 PM   #1314
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Probably not many. Where are their protests? I have not seen any. Please remember the valid arguments for the no case, well, have not seen any of those wither.

I thought we were assured that there would be a veritable torrent of lawsuits from such mistreated civil celebrants based on the unconstitutionality of this new law.
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Old 7th December 2017, 04:52 PM   #1315
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I thought we were assured that there would be a veritable torrent of lawsuits from such mistreated civil celebrants based on the unconstitutionality of this new law.
Early days
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:27 PM   #1316
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Tony Abbott showed his mettle and steely resolve for the No case yesterday by absenting himself from the Reps and was recorded as an Abstain vote. I would like to underline the "stain" part of that word.
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:47 PM   #1317
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Now, it's official.

Quote:
SAME-SEX marriage is officially legal in Australia after the Governor-General signed off on the historic laws today.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull visited Sir Peter Cosgrove in Canberra for the signing of the bill this morning — the last step to change Australia’s laws.

“I assent to this Act ... the Act now passes into Australian law,” Sir Cosgrove said as he signed a copy of the bill.

The government has set Saturday, December 9 as the date the new laws will take effect and the Attorney-General’s office has confirmed this means weddings can take place from January 9. This is because couples need to lodge a Notice of Intended Marriage one month before their ceremonies.

Couples who got married overseas will have their unions automatically recognised under Australia law on Saturday.
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/gay...3fd74c9cd5486c
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Old 7th December 2017, 07:08 PM   #1318
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Tony Abbott showed his mettle and steely resolve for the No case yesterday by absenting himself from the Reps and was recorded as an Abstain vote. I would like to underline the "stain" part of that word.
Other MPs to abstain include Treasurer Scott Morrison, deputy PM Barnaby Joyce, assistant ministers Michael Sukkar and Alex Hawke, Liberal MPs Andrew Hastie, Kevin Andrews, Rick Wilson and National MP George Christensen.

However, the only official record is of the 4 "no" voters: Coalition MPs Russell Broadbent, Keith Pitt, David Littleproud and independent MP Bob Katter.

Mr Pitt subsequently released a statement claiming that he wasn't against SSM but the actual bill.
Quote:
The debate today was about the bill and its details. I supported a range of amendments which I believed would have improved the bill, but the final legislation was put without these amendments included.

I was aware of the opportunity to abstain from the vote today, but in this place I believe you should always have the courage of your convictions.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ccc2bc574b2ff8
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Old 7th December 2017, 07:55 PM   #1319
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I thought we were assured that there would be a veritable torrent of lawsuits from such mistreated civil celebrants based on the unconstitutionality of this new law.
LOL.
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Old 7th December 2017, 11:18 PM   #1320
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I thought we were assured that there would be a veritable torrent of lawsuits from such mistreated civil celebrants based on the unconstitutionality of this new law.
LOL.
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