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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , JFK assassination , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 4th December 2017, 02:24 PM   #3161
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
No, I am not doing that again.
Don't fool yourself, you never did it the first time.
I think you err. MJ seems to wheel out the same non-arguments in a kind of cycle. Note how we are back to the long debunked "impossible shot" argument as an avoidance of the failed autopsy fakery claim. Once the "impossible shot" argument has run it's course, something else will be brought up (2nd, 3rd gunman, grassy knoll, overpass, hoboes, etc before coming full circle right back to "impossible shot.

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Quote:
Every time you guys choose to forget one of a few things:
Comedy ensues.
Indeed. Truth be told, MJ is actually hoping that we will forget things, and is peeved that we do not.

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Quote:
1. It was an elevated shot.
Making it hard how? Have you ever seen a guard tower before? They're kinda on the tall side for a reason.
Interesting, isn't it? Throughout the history of war, there are so many examples of trying to capture this ridge or that hill to gain the higher ground. In MJ world, this is a disadvantage, because...no idea.

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Quote:
2. The limousine was moving somewhat horizontally as well as vertically.
Not enough to make a difference, not at that range, not with that gun.
The relative motion was negligible. It is called leading the target. MJ seems to think that it is only possible to hit a static target because who knows?

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Quote:
3. It was a moving target.
Relative to Oswald, not really. He had a relatively stationary sight picture long enough to make two shots.
Anyone who has stood for a moment on the margin of a highway/motorway understands all that. MJ for some reason, does not.

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Quote:
4. the limousine slowed abruptly.
And that made the shot harder?
Dunno what to make of that wild claim. The slower the target, the more difficult the shot?

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Quote:
5. There weren't an infinite amount of chances.
Oswald was 2 for 3.

Circular logic is circular.
He could have cranked off five shots had he wished, but once he got the head shot he wanted, why would he keep going?
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:49 PM   #3162
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Axxman, only autopsy participants and people involved in the investigation knew about the back wound. Barnum should not have known about the back wound on 11/29/1963 unless his story is true or something pretty darn close to it is true. And that was a written personal journal intended for his children to grow up to read. No media reports or attention-seeking towards conspiracy theorists could have garbled Barnum's personal account.
Doesn't matter, nobody cares, and this autopsy/mortician thing is a non-issue.

None of it changes the basic facts:

Oswald+Alone+6.5x52mm Carcano+2 shots strike the President, 1 in the upper back, the other in the head.

Anything else is a sad attempt at smoke and mirrors that doesn't fool anyone.
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:58 PM   #3163
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
He could have cranked off five shots had he wished, but once he got the head shot he wanted, why would he keep going?
The sad/funny thing is that most people in 2017 know what one guy with a rifle can do once he's become unglued. As we've said before, the world is lucky Oswald had a bolt-action Carcano, and not an M-14, or M-1 Garand. He could have killed everyone in the limo with either rifle in eight seconds, re-loaded, and started in on the VP's limo.

If this were to happen today, with an AR-15, Oswald could kill everyone on the sidewalk and hold off the police for a few hours. Granted today the POTUS rides around in an upholstered tank, but the fact is the 6th Floor of the TSBD is a great place from which to kill people with a long rifle.
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Old 4th December 2017, 06:24 PM   #3164
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Oh, I get it, you've never fired a weapon of any kind.
Dude, the first time I ever had a turn shooting clay pigeons, I got all 5 in a row. I instantly had a feel for the effects of the recoil, compensating my aim, etc.

Quote:
This is not true. Having been to the building and stood on the 6th floor I can state this is a lie.
I've been there,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP> Edited for civility
. I was there last year.

Quote:
Weird, me too, because the only weapon used was a 6.5x52mm Carcano. Case closed.
Axxman, has there ever been an experiment that shows the elasticity of the human anterior neck skin to cause an exit wound to be smaller than it's correlated entrance wound?

Last edited by zooterkin; 5th December 2017 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 4th December 2017, 06:45 PM   #3165
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The sad/funny thing is that most people in 2017 know what one guy with a rifle can do once he's become unglued. As we've said before, the world is lucky Oswald had a bolt-action Carcano, and not an M-14, or M-1 Garand. He could have killed everyone in the limo with either rifle in eight seconds, re-loaded, and started in on the VP's limo.

If this were to happen today, with an AR-15, Oswald could kill everyone on the sidewalk and hold off the police for a few hours. Granted today the POTUS rides around in an upholstered tank, but the fact is the 6th Floor of the TSBD is a great place from which to kill people with a long rifle.
Okay, but then you have the evidence for more than three shots fired.

If there weren't multiple shooters, why does the evidence indicate that the autopsy pathologists knew that Kennedy's tracheotomy was originally a bullet wound during the course of the autopsy?

Why does the evidence indicate that autopsy photographs have gone missing, such as ones showing views of the interior torso Y-incision, a bruise on the right lung, close-ups of the outer and inner surfaces of the small head wound in the scalp and underlying skull?

Why did the autopsy doctors always swear that there was no beveled exit in the skull bone until beveling was discovered in skull fragments from the limousine were corresponded to the missing cranium area, and yet the open-cranium photographs in evidence are focally show a beveled exit on some margins of the empty cranium?

Why have panels of government investigators endorsed the theory that the autopsy report, autopsy pathologists, and almost a dozen more witnesses were completely mistaken about the anatomical location of a small wound in the back of Kennedy's head?

Why does Kennedy's torso X-rays show a long cavity between the right neck tissues resembling a bullet track going from the lower anterior throat to well within the upper neck to where it could not be associated with the back wound?

Why was Kennedy's throat wound so small?

Why did Cyril Wecht report noticing a possible bullet fragment in the upper neck area on the official X-rays?

Why have experts such as John Lattimer, the Clark Panel, and a couple of guys on the HSCA forensic pathology panel reported possible bullet fragments apparent on Kennedy's lower neck on the official X-rays?

Why have experts such as John Orr re-affirmed the strong possibility that CE 567, the smashed nose of a Carcano round, contains human muscle tissue embedded right inbetween the tip of the former rounded point nose? If you want to say that it's frontal muscle tissue from the bullet exiting, how did the bullet travel nose-first into the center of the back of the head and still have the tip of the nose stay straight upon exiting even after breaking up?

Last edited by MicahJava; 4th December 2017 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 4th December 2017, 07:37 PM   #3166
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Dude, the first time I ever had a turn shooting clay pigeons, I got all 5 in a row. I instantly had a feel for the effects of the recoil, compensating my aim, etc.
What you've demonstrated here is a complete lack of knowledge of how firearms work. I simply don't believe your braggadocio to be more than CTist hollow posturing.

Quote:
I've been there,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP> Edited for civility
. I was there last year.
How difficult would the shots have been for such a trained marksman as yourself?

Quote:
Axxman, has there ever been an experiment that shows the elasticity of the human anterior neck skin to cause an exit wound to be smaller than it's correlated entrance wound?
Has there ever been a CTist who was able to string together a coherent narrative from all the crap they throw at a wall? Or have they all followed your same pattern?

Last edited by zooterkin; 5th December 2017 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 4th December 2017, 07:46 PM   #3167
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Okay, but then you have the evidence for more than three shots fired.

<snipped excess CT goofiness>
Yes, that CT pattern. Thanks for illustrating.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:25 PM   #3168
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Dude, the first time I ever had a turn shooting clay pigeons, I got all 5 in a row. I instantly had a feel for the effects of the recoil, compensating my aim, etc.
And yet you believe a Marine, who spent many hours dry firing his Carcano, and time at two shooting ranges is somehow incapable of making an easy shot from the 6th Floor.


Quote:
I've been there,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP> Edited for civility
. I was there last year.
You look yet you do not see.


Quote:
Axxman, has there ever been an experiment that shows the elasticity of the human anterior neck skin to cause an exit wound to be smaller than it's correlated entrance wound?
Nobody knows how big the exit wound in the throat was. Parkland elongated it for the tracheotomy. More to the point, we know it's an exit wound from the fiber evidence from JFK's clothes.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:08 PM   #3169
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Okay, but then you have the evidence for more than three shots fired.
No, there is no evidence. Only two shots struck and they both came from Oswald.


Quote:
If there weren't multiple shooters, why does the evidence indicate that the autopsy pathologists knew that Kennedy's tracheotomy was originally a bullet wound during the course of the autopsy?
Evidence shows that they didn't know it was an exit wound. This has never been in dispute.

Quote:
Why does the evidence indicate that autopsy photographs have gone missing, such as ones showing views of the interior torso Y-incision, a bruise on the right lung, close-ups of the outer and inner surfaces of the small head wound in the scalp and underlying skull?
No evidence for this whatsoever.

Quote:
Why did the autopsy doctors always swear that there was no beveled exit in the skull bone until beveling was discovered in skull fragments from the limousine were corresponded to the missing cranium area,
That's what happened.

Quote:
and yet the open-cranium photographs in evidence are focally show a beveled exit on some margins of the empty cranium?
No, they do not.

Quote:
Why have panels of government investigators endorsed the theory that the autopsy report, autopsy pathologists, and almost a dozen more witnesses were completely mistaken about the anatomical location of a small wound in the back of Kennedy's head?
Are we trusting government investigators now? You don't seem to understand the hypocrisy of buying into the findings of the HSCA in 1977, but blowing off the Warren Commission from 1966. You have a record on this board of believing government investigations are all rigged, so you cannot turn around and start quoting them. Either the government gets it right or they don't.

Does not matter if the entry wound is low, we know where it came from.

Quote:
Why does Kennedy's torso X-rays show a long cavity between the right neck tissues resembling a bullet track going from the lower anterior throat to well within the upper neck to where it could not be associated with the back wound?
It doesn't. You've chosen to embrace a crap interpretation of the x-ray, and you don't know what the other x-rays show.

Quote:
Why was Kennedy's throat wound so small?
It was 6.5mm or so. We know why.

Quote:
Why did Cyril Wecht report noticing a possible bullet fragment in the upper neck area on the official X-rays?
Bigfoot told him?

Quote:
Why have experts such as John Lattimer, the Clark Panel, and a couple of guys on the HSCA forensic pathology panel reported possible bullet fragments apparent on Kennedy's lower neck on the official X-rays?
Possible does not mean conclusive.

Quote:
Why have experts such as John Orr re-affirmed the strong possibility that CE 567, the smashed nose of a Carcano round, contains human muscle tissue embedded right inbetween the tip of the former rounded point nose?
Orr is not an expert. He's an Anti-Trust attorney.


Quote:
If you want to say that it's frontal muscle tissue from the bullet exiting, how did the bullet travel nose-first into the center of the back of the head and still have the tip of the nose stay straight upon exiting even after breaking up?
First, the DNA testing just said it was human skin. No further detail, so this is another non-issue.

Source: The Actual report of the testing:

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/j...gmentTests.pdf

Second, does this look straight to you?:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150

Here's the base:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151

You're not very good at this.
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Old 5th December 2017, 06:44 AM   #3170
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
...

Source: The Actual report of the testing:

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/j...gmentTests.pdf

Second, does this look straight to you?:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150

Here's the base:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151

You're not very good at this.
From the report you linked they bullet fragments were studied to find out all about any foreign items on them. This is consistent with all of your posts that the events of the assassination where studied to the nth degree contrary to what CT's would have you believe.
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:32 PM   #3171
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
not an expert. He's an Anti-Trust attorney.




First, the DNA testing just said it was human skin. No further detail, so this is another non-issue.

Source: The Actual report of the testing:

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/j...gmentTests.pdf

Second, does this look straight to you?:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150

Here's the base:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151

You're not very good at this.
03: The sections show flattened superficial epithelium with well preserved nuclei. The PAS stain shows glycogen granules and the trichrome shows a thin layer of positive material, possibly underlying muscle. Other stains are noncontributory.

Impression: human skin.


https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/j...gmentTests.pdf

Dr. Michael Zimmerman is actually the expert who did this study, here he is on a Fox News special report clearly saying that he found muscle tissue:

https://archive.org/details/FOXNEWSW.../3240/end/3300

This dude tests mummies for a living. Some bullet fragments from 1963 are like tee ball to him.

Last edited by MicahJava; 5th December 2017 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:13 PM   #3172
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
03: The sections show flattened superficial epithelium with well preserved nuclei. The PAS stain shows glycogen granules and the trichrome shows a thin layer of positive material, possibly underlying muscle. Other stains are noncontributory.

Impression: human skin.


https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/j...gmentTests.pdf

Dr. Michael Zimmerman is actually the expert who did this study, here he is on a Fox News special report clearly saying that he found muscle tissue:

https://archive.org/details/FOXNEWSW.../3240/end/3300

This dude tests mummies for a living. Some bullet fragments from 1963 are like tee ball to him.
Why did you cherry pick what that report actually concluded?

Is it that you failed to read it?
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:10 PM   #3173
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
[color="Blue"]Dr. Michael Zimmerman is actually the expert who did this study, here he is on a Fox News special report clearly saying that he found muscle tissue:

https://archive.org/details/FOXNEWSW.../3240/end/3300

This dude tests mummies for a living. Some bullet fragments from 1963 are like tee ball to him.
Neat. Remember how you didn't know what an RN was?

Look up "Frontal Belly of Occipitofrontalis". Why? Because that's the muscle the 6.5x52mm Carcano round exited through. So finding muscle tissue on the fragment is about as earth-shattering as finding blood on JFK's shirt and jacket.

Is your Google broken?
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:14 PM   #3174
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
From the report you linked they bullet fragments were studied to find out all about any foreign items on them. This is consistent with all of your posts that the events of the assassination where studied to the nth degree contrary to what CT's would have you believe.
That's right, John Orr thought the fibers came from JFK's clothes, meaning that Connally with a different missile, thus four shots. The test showed the fibers came from the limo carpet, which is consistent with the actual event.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:17 PM   #3175
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
03: The sections show flattened superficial epithelium with well preserved nuclei. The PAS stain shows glycogen granules and the trichrome shows a thin layer of positive material, possibly underlying muscle. Other stains are noncontributory.

Impression: human skin.


https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/j...gmentTests.pdf

Dr. Michael Zimmerman is actually the expert who did this study, here he is on a Fox News special report clearly saying that he found muscle tissue:

https://archive.org/details/FOXNEWSW.../3240/end/3300

This dude tests mummies for a living. Some bullet fragments from 1963 are like tee ball to him.
You mean you're doing a fringe reset yet again?

This was asked and answered previously:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2948

Hank
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:29 PM   #3176
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Neat. Remember how you didn't know what an RN was?

Look up "Frontal Belly of Occipitofrontalis". Why? Because that's the muscle the 6.5x52mm Carcano round exited through. So finding muscle tissue on the fragment is about as earth-shattering as finding blood on JFK's shirt and jacket.

Is your Google broken?
Apparently you didn't read the main part of my question. How do trace amounts of frontal muscle tissue get embedded almost totally in the middle of the smashed nose CE 567? The nose of the bullet didn't tumble at all after already breaking up? And how would it get a chance to have a close direct encounter the frontal muscles if it first needs to blast out of the skull?

If the fragments in evidence are indeed from the shooting, then them causing a tangential wound on the top-right side of Kennedy's head would give the bullet plenty of chances to directly drive through muscle tissue, because in that case it's clipping the head from the side. Tangential wounds are also known to leave skin tissue on the recovered bullet, which is highly unusual in regular through-and-through wounds.

Last edited by MicahJava; 5th December 2017 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:33 PM   #3177
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Axxman, only autopsy participants and people involved in the investigation knew about the back wound. Barnum should not have known about the back wound on 11/29/1963 unless his story is true or something pretty darn close to it is true. And that was a written personal journal intended for his children to grow up to read. No media reports or attention-seeking towards conspiracy theorists could have garbled Barnum's personal account.
Your arguments about Barnum were addressed back when it was warm... in July of this year.

Another fringe reset?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1010

Brought up again in November:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2558

and rebutted again and again since then:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2647

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2650

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2688

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2698

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2797

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2809

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2812

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2813

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2818

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2824

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2826

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2830

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2834

And so on and on and on...

It appears you have no argument, you understand you have no argument, but you don't want to concede you have no argument, so you keep bringing up old items that were examined months earlier as if they were never addressed.

They were. Your arguments are still toast, no matter how many times you recycle them.

And it's amusing that while you originally claimed Barnum's account was garbled, you're now taking a different approach and pretending it's not: "No media reports or attention-seeking towards conspiracy theorists could have garbled Barnum's personal account."

Here's where you said Barnum's account was "garbled" and contained points of "incoherence":
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
This is based on a personal journal entry dated 11/29/1963. If the relevant text had stopped at "The first striking him in the lower neck and coming out near the throat", that would be too much sense. But then Barnum had to throw in "The second shot striking him above and to the rear of the right ear, this shot not coming out". "This shot not coming out"? That sounds like a garbled reference to the original theory on the back wound, a short shot with the bullet squeezing out of it's own entry wound. Could this be a garbled reference to the mythical EOP-throat connection as attested by Lipsey? Nobody can know. Despite the incoherence, this is some of the most credible evidence that the autopsy doctors knew about the throat wound earlier than claimed.
You contradict yourself in search of that elusive conspiracy you never will find.

Because it doesn't exist.

Hank
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:42 PM   #3178
MicahJava
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Your arguments about Barnum were addressed back when it was warm... in July of this year.

Another fringe reset?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1010

Brought up again in November:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2558

and rebutted again and again since then:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2647

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2650

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2688

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2698

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2797

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2809

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2812

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2813

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2818

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2824

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2826

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2830

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2834

And so on and on and on...

It appears you have no argument, you understand you have no argument, but you don't want to concede you have no argument, so you keep bringing up old items that were examined months earlier as if they were never addressed.

They were. Your arguments are still toast, no matter how many times you recycle them.

And it's amusing that while you originally claimed Barnum's account was garbled, you're now taking a different approach and pretending it's not: "No media reports or attention-seeking towards conspiracy theorists could have garbled Barnum's personal account."

You contradict yourself in search of that elusive conspiracy you never will find.

Because it doesn't exist.

Hank
Too bad literally none of them can even be considered coherent.

George Barnum's diary was dated November 29, 1963; it references the back wound, and the throat wound as an exit. The existence of the back wound only became public knowledge later in December. I don't know where else there is to go with this besides accepting that Barnum's story is credible.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:51 PM   #3179
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Apparently you didn't read the main part of my question. How do trace amounts of frontal muscle tissue get embedded almost totally in the middle of the smashed nose CE 567?
By striking muscle.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The nose of the bullet didn't tumble at all after already breaking up?
Straw man.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
And how would it get a chance to have a close direct encounter the frontal muscles if it first needs to blast out of the skull?
By striking the muscle underlying the skin on the way out.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If the fragments in evidence are indeed from the shooting, then them causing a tangential wound on the top-right side of Kennedy's head would give the bullet plenty of chances to directly drive through muscle tissue, because in that case it's clipping the head from the side.
Except there's NO EVIDENCE of a tangential shot whatsoever. Try to stick to the evidence and not conjecture into existence the stuff you need to argue for a conspiracy.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Tangential wounds are also known to leave skin tissue on the recovered bullet, which is highly unusual in regular through-and-through wounds.
Says who? You making stuff up again?

Oh, yeah, try to remember the quote you're arguing from:
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
03: The sections show flattened superficial epithelium with well preserved nuclei. The PAS stain shows glycogen granules and the trichrome shows a thin layer of positive material, possibly underlying muscle.
So you're arguing for muscle, but muscle isn't even proven. It just says it's "possibly muscle".

Which means it's also possible it's not. You understand that, right?

But it certainly appears you're content to ignore that.

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Old 5th December 2017, 04:58 PM   #3180
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Too bad literally none of them can even be considered coherent.
Frantically hand-waving away the contrary arguments won't do you much good. You never could answer the points made and cited above. Calling them incoherent doesn't cut the mustard as a response.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
George Barnum's diary was dated November 29, 1963; it references the back wound, and the throat wound as an exit. The existence of the back wound only became public knowledge later in December. I don't know where else there is to go with this besides accepting that Barnum's story is credible.
Not sure what your argument is. You yourself already admitted he got stuff wrong, claiming parts were 'garbled' and incoherent. You don't get to turn around and then claim his diary is credible evidence. You already admitted it's not.

You don't get to throw out everything but the parts you like on the basis that they are garbled, then keep the parts you like because they must be credible.

Sorry, no, it doesn't work the way you want it to.

It's already been pointed out to you that Humes' phone call could have been made shortly after midnight, if the autopsy ended by "about 11pm" as Humes claimed and other contemporaneous evidence you yourself cited suggests. Humes said only that it was made early in the morning on Saturday, and 12:30am certainly qualifies. Dr. Perry said he remembers the call as on Friday night, and a call at 12:30am on Saturday Washington time would be 11:30pm Friday night Dallas time.

And you never did post how long Barnum was at Bethesda, and when exactly this information was imparted to Barnum.

Your argument is just chock full of assumptions you need to establish. All this was pointed out to you in the above. Calling all these points incoherent doesn't make them go away.

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Old 5th December 2017, 05:09 PM   #3181
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From the book Gunshot Wounds Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques:

Examination of Bullets for Tissue and Foreign Material

If a bullet passes through a body or intermediary target, or ricochets off a hard surface,
fragments of tissue or target material may adhere to or be imbedded in the bullet. If the
bullet is a hollow point, a relatively large wad of this material may be deposited in the cavity.
Recovery and identification of foreign material from a bullet may identify the organs or
intermediary object perforated or prove that the bullet was a ricochet. Nonorganic material,
such as aluminum from a window screen perforated by a bullet or minerals from a
stone off of which a bullet ricocheted, can be identified on a bullet by scanning electron
microscopy with energy-dispersive x-ray (SEM–EDX).14
In a series of tests involving FMJ 9 19 mm bullets, fired at 10 different materials and
examined by SEM/EDX, Karger et al.15 found the following:


...

In the case of high-velocity bullets,
they noted extensive fragmentation of the tissue with blood clots, bone fragments, muscle,
and amorphous debris, the most common tissues recovered. Mesothelial cells and organ
fragments were less common. Tissue recovered from low-velocity bullets was better preserved
and more abundant. Adipose tissue, fragments of small vessels, and clumps of spindle
cells were most commonly found; skeletal and cardiac muscles, occasionally. Visceral
organ fragments were not necessarily found even when the organs were perforated. Skin
was the least commonly encountered. In regard to gunshot wounds of the head, bone
chips, skeletal muscle, connective tissue, and strips of small vessels were commonly identified.
Fragments of brain were present but were not readily recognizable as neural in origin.

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Old 5th December 2017, 05:14 PM   #3182
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Tangential wounds are also known to leave skin tissue on the recovered bullet, which is highly unusual in regular through-and-through wounds.
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Says who? You making stuff up again?
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
From the book Gunshot Wounds Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques:

If a bullet passes through a body ... fragments of tissue or target material may adhere to or be imbedded in the bullet.
So the source you cite directly contradicts your claim. It appears you are making up stuff again.

Thanks for playing. As another poster has said, you're not very good at this.

And we're supposed to not notice:
(a) your source directly contradicts your claim?
(b) you only responded to one point in a lengthy post, ignoring all the other points?
(c) you cannot substantiate your claims?
(d) you're simply performing yet another fringe reset?

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Old 5th December 2017, 05:21 PM   #3183
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
So the source you cite directly contradicts your claim.

Thanks for playing. As another poster has said, you're not very good at this.

Hank
It said that human skin was the least likely to be identified on a bullet, and I assumed the same idea applied to the upper cranial muscles where they are like a sort of skin. But that report copied above says that muscle was indeed found on their test bullets, so that part of the argument was wrong. CE 567 still contains human skin.
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Old 5th December 2017, 05:31 PM   #3184
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
It said that human skin was the least likely to be identified on a bullet
Least likely doesn't mean 'never'.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
... and I assumed the same idea applied to the upper cranial muscles where they are like a sort of skin.
Nobody cares about your assumptions.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
But that report copied above
Which report?



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
...says that muscle was indeed found on their test bullets
What test bullets?



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
so that part of the argument was wrong.
As is every other part. You're only conceding one small error in a mountain of errors by you.



Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
CE 567 still contains human skin.
And your own cited source says that's not surprising:
"If a bullet passes through a body ... fragments of tissue or target material may adhere to or be imbedded in the bullet."

Skin and muscle were both human tissue, last time I looked.

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Old 5th December 2017, 05:38 PM   #3185
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
How do trace amounts of frontal muscle tissue get embedded almost totally in the middle of the smashed nose CE 567?
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
(Quoting): "In the case of high-velocity bullets, they noted extensive fragmentation of the tissue with blood clots, bone fragments, muscle, and amorphous debris, the most common tissues recovered."
Too funny. Ask and answer your own questions.

Thanks for playing.

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Old 5th December 2017, 05:42 PM   #3186
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Apparently you didn't read the main part of my question.
You tend to ramble.


Quote:
How do trace amounts of frontal muscle tissue get embedded almost totally in the middle of the smashed nose CE 567? The nose of the bullet didn't tumble at all after already breaking up? And how would it get a chance to have a close direct encounter the frontal muscles if it first needs to blast out of the skull?
If you bothered to look at the fragments I linked to you might notice a couple of things that, if you use logic, can answer your question. Since you can't or won't, here's what you miss:

You've assumed the nose of the bullet exited first, and if there is indeed muscle, or skin tissue on the pulverized nose then it was following the LARGER base of the round. So the nose of the bullet exited behind the base as it blew through the bone, snagging tissue on the way out. All this happened at 2,000mph.

The bullet clearly fragmented upon striking the rear of the skull, and tumbled (we know this from the damage caused by cavitation shown in the HSCA sketch of the brain). The largest fragment was the base, and is the obvious candidate for the piece that blew out the top-front of the skull as it exited. The nose was right behind it.


Quote:
If the fragments in evidence are indeed from the shooting,
They are, this is not in dispute.

Quote:
then them causing a tangential wound on the top-right side of Kennedy's head would give the bullet plenty of chances to directly drive through muscle tissue, because in that case it's clipping the head from the side.
Nope. Remember, the whole thing's on film:




Quote:
Tangential wounds are also known to leave skin tissue on the recovered bullet, which is highly unusual in regular through-and-through wounds.
Neat-O. That has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Doesn't matter what can happen, the only thing that matters is what did happen. In this case 2 bullets struck JFK from behind. Both bullets were 6.5x52mm Carcano rounds fired by Lee Oswald from the 6th Floor of the TSBD.

All of the evidence proves this.
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:20 PM   #3187
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
It said that human skin was the least likely to be identified on a bullet, and I assumed the same idea applied to the upper cranial muscles where they are like a sort of skin. But that report copied above says that muscle was indeed found on their test bullets, so that part of the argument was wrong. CE 567 still contains human skin.
Your one CT source didn't tell you how badly you'd have your ass handed to you, did it?
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:40 PM   #3188
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I keep saying that the only CT left with JFK is to link him to a compromised Anti-Castro paramilitary group, and nobody wants to do that because unlike Mafia types those guys don't talk, and they're probably all dead.

The HSCA tried hard. The FBI tried hard. The CIA crossed its fingers and didn't find anything linking him to Castro.

If you look at the assassination in conjunction with the Walker attempt one could imply that Oswald was trying to prove his worthiness to someone...if you want to play that game. I don't. I think his rifle gave him a feeling of real power for the first time in his life.
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Old 5th December 2017, 10:03 PM   #3189
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I keep saying that the only CT left with JFK is to link him to a compromised Anti-Castro paramilitary group, and nobody wants to do that because unlike Mafia types those guys don't talk, and they're probably all dead.

The HSCA tried hard. The FBI tried hard. The CIA crossed its fingers and didn't find anything linking him to Castro.

If you look at the assassination in conjunction with the Walker attempt one could imply that Oswald was trying to prove his worthiness to someone...if you want to play that game. I don't. I think his rifle gave him a feeling of real power for the first time in his life.
A little man with a gun and obsessed with feeling important without the skills to achieve his goals.

He'd be the happiest man in captivity if he had lived to know his name was still being discussed in 2017.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:00 AM   #3190
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Too bad literally none of them can even be considered coherent.
I would be happy to go over any post you choose and explain it to you, if you wish.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:17 AM   #3191
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I would be happy to go over any post you choose and explain it to you, if you wish.
Ignorance is bliss....
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Old 6th December 2017, 06:16 AM   #3192
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I would be happy to go over any post you choose and explain it to you, if you wish.
I've tried that. You can explain a non-conspiracy point to a CT until you're blue in the face.

Unfortunately, you can't understand said non-conspiracy point for the CT unless they want to understand it.

Or you certainly can't get the CT to admit he understands it but has no rebuttal.

So they resort to either ignoring the point entirely or weak dismissals of any and all points they disagree with claims like the above of incoherence.

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Old 6th December 2017, 06:55 AM   #3193
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I would be happy to go over any post you choose and explain it to you, if you wish.
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
I've tried that. You can explain a non-conspiracy point to a CT until you're blue in the face.

Unfortunately, you can't understand said non-conspiracy point for the CT unless they want to understand it.

Or you certainly can't get the CT to admit he understands it but has no rebuttal.

So they resort to either ignoring the point entirely or weak dismissals of any and all points they disagree with claims like the above of incoherence.

Hank
Over to you, MicahJava. Do you genuinely not understand the posts, or is it as HSienzant says, that this is just a cheap debating tactic allowing you to wriggle out of having to answer any of them?
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:18 PM   #3194
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Frantically hand-waving away the contrary arguments won't do you much good. You never could answer the points made and cited above. Calling them incoherent doesn't cut the mustard as a response.





Not sure what your argument is. You yourself already admitted he got stuff wrong, claiming parts were 'garbled' and incoherent. You don't get to turn around and then claim his diary is credible evidence. You already admitted it's not.

You don't get to throw out everything but the parts you like on the basis that they are garbled, then keep the parts you like because they must be credible.

Sorry, no, it doesn't work the way you want it to.

It's already been pointed out to you that Humes' phone call could have been made shortly after midnight, if the autopsy ended by "about 11pm" as Humes claimed and other contemporaneous evidence you yourself cited suggests. Humes said only that it was made early in the morning on Saturday, and 12:30am certainly qualifies. Dr. Perry said he remembers the call as on Friday night, and a call at 12:30am on Saturday Washington time would be 11:30pm Friday night Dallas time.

And you never did post how long Barnum was at Bethesda, and when exactly this information was imparted to Barnum.

Your argument is just chock full of assumptions you need to establish. All this was pointed out to you in the above. Calling all these points incoherent doesn't make them go away.

Hank
This is the exact passage from the Barnum diary dated 11/29/1963, shown in David Lifton's BEST EVIDENCE:

In his November 29, 1963 account, Coast Guardsman George Barnum wrote that as the men were having sandwhiches and coffee sometime after midnight, Admiral Burkley came in and talked to them, and said three shots had been fired, that the President had been hit by the first and third, and he described the trajectories of the two that struck:

"The first striking him in the lower neck and coming out near the throat. The second shot striking him above and to the rear of the right ear, this shot not coming out...."



The second part where it says "this shot not coming out...." is what confuses me. It sounds kind of like a reference to the first theory on the shallow back wound, that the bullet did not make an exit wound but rather barely penetrated the back and then naturally squeezed out of it's own entry hole. But it appears to be referencing one shot which struck "above and to the rear of the right ear". A reference to the mythical "bullet lodged behind the ear" referenced in that FBI memo? Who knows. But the Barnum Diary is definitely describing a wound in his "lower neck".

We have been over why a "right after the autopsy while the morticians were treating the body" throat wound discovery doesn't work. Dr. Humes has even said that he and his children went to a church function before he finally got around to calling Dr. Perry much later in the morning of 11/23/1963. He estimated to was 10-11 AM to the HSCA and 7-9 AM to the ARRB.

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Old 6th December 2017, 11:07 PM   #3195
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Gosh.
If only we had some way of checking if there was evidence of an exit point for the head wound... like an autopsy, photographs, or filmed footage of mass ejected from a head wound.

Oh wait. We do. No need to be confused then.
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Old 7th December 2017, 12:14 AM   #3196
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Your one CT source didn't tell you how badly you'd have your ass handed to you, did it?
RoboTimbo, did you read that correctly? Trace amounts of human skin were identified on CE567. Human skin is one of the materials least likely to be found in bullets that have traveled through-an-through a wound. Human skin on CE567 is, however, perfectly compatible with a tangential shot in which a bullet, or a fragment of a bullet, glides along the side-surface of the scalp/skull bone/brain. This leaves more opportunity for contact with those tissues.
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Old 7th December 2017, 01:09 AM   #3197
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
RoboTimbo, did you read that correctly? Trace amounts of human skin were identified on CE567. Human skin is one of the materials least likely to be found in bullets that have traveled through-an-through a wound. Human skin on CE567 is, however, perfectly compatible with a tangential shot in which a bullet, or a fragment of a bullet, glides along the side-surface of the scalp/skull bone/brain. This leaves more opportunity for contact with those tissues.
This is obviously wrong.

The bullet fragmented upon entry and the clearly evident sharp deformity was enough to snag some flesh on the way out.

The better question is DID YOU READ THAT CORRECTLY?

The nifty book you quoted is for general purposes. The fact is you can shoot 100 people in the head from the same distance with the same rifle and get 100 different outcomes.

More to the point, the headshot was dead on, not a tangential shot. There was no grazing .

We get that you're working hard to back engineer irrelevant information, but you are not very good at it.
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Old 7th December 2017, 02:17 AM   #3198
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Over to you, MicahJava. Do you genuinely not understand the posts, or is it as HSienzant says, that this is just a cheap debating tactic allowing you to wriggle out of having to answer any of them?
Ahem.
Bumped in case you didn't notice it, MicahJava.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:12 AM   #3199
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
RoboTimbo, did you read that correctly?
He did.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Trace amounts of human skin were identified on CE567.
Quote the precise findings, don't paraphrase them.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Human skin is one of the materials least likely to be found in bullets that have traveled through-an-through a wound.
"Unlikely" doesn't mean "never".

Didn't we discuss probabilities in this thread as some point? Every outcome is exceeding rare before the fact. Look at a sporting event like a horse race or a football game. If the winning horse wins by three lengths over the place finisher, and the second place finisher narrowly beats out the third place finisher by a nose, that finish could not have been predicted with any accuracy beforehand. But there's nothing surprising in that finish after the fact.

Or look at the Monday Night Football game between the Steelers and Bengals. The Steelers won 23-20 on a last-second field goal. Before the fact, that was literally one of hundreds of possible outcomes, each of them highly unlikely. After the fact, there's nothing surprising in the fact that the Steelers scored 23 and the Bengals 20. You simply don't understand probability.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Human skin on CE567 is, however, perfectly compatible with a tangential shot in which a bullet, or a fragment of a bullet, glides along the side-surface of the scalp/skull bone/brain.
Says who? You?


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
This leaves more opportunity for contact with those tissues.
So now the shot never entered the head? This CE567 bullet only grazed JFK?

What caused all that damage to CE567 then? It lost the entire interior of the bullet (the lead core) and the copper jacket was roughly split in half. Both the front and back of the copper jacket were recovered from the limo. Where's the bullet that caused the rear entry wound and exited the top right side of the skull in your scenario?

You're trying to have it both ways again. Arguing for a shot that skimmed JFK's skin, but throwing in that it went in and out of the skull as well.

Can't be both. Pick one.

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Old 7th December 2017, 05:35 AM   #3200
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
He did.

Quote the precise findings, don't paraphrase them.

"Unlikely" doesn't mean "never".

Didn't we discuss probabilities in this thread as some point? Every outcome is exceeding rare before the fact. Look at a sporting event like a horse race or a football game. If the winning horse wins by three lengths over the place finisher, and the second place finisher narrowly beats out the third place finisher by a nose, that finish could not have been predicted with any accuracy beforehand. But there's nothing surprising in that finish after the fact.

Or look at the Monday Night Football game between the Steelers and Bengals. The Steelers won 23-20 on a last-second field goal. Before the fact, that was literally one of hundreds of possible outcomes, each of them highly unlikely. After the fact, there's nothing surprising in the fact that the Steelers scored 23 and the Bengals 20. You simply don't understand probability.

Says who? You?

So now the shot never entered the head? This CE567 bullet only grazed JFK?

What caused all that damage to CE567 then? It lost the entire interior of the bullet (the lead core) and the copper jacket was roughly split in half. Both the front and back of the copper jacket were recovered from the limo. Where's the bullet that caused the rear entry wound and exited the top right side of the skull in your scenario?

You're trying to have it both ways again. Arguing for a shot that skimmed JFK's skin, but throwing in that it went in and out of the skull as well.

Can't be both. Pick one.

Hank
"Magic" bullet number two, of course.

MJ must have several doctorial thesis pending peer review, GSW to the body, Time dilation, English, finite analysis, Physics, and of course debating.
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