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Old 20th October 2017, 06:38 PM   #201
Peregrinus
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
1- I said Like the reward of the good, the punishment of evil/bad men is the result of his (Allah's) mercy, goodness and perfection.

2- According to the Qur'an, Paradise is endless. But hell can be the end because there are expressions that make you think.
"Reward" a subjective human abstraction without referent in reality.
"Good" a subjective human abstraction without referent in reality.
"Allah" a subjective human fiction without referent in reality.
"Evil" a subjective human abstraction without referent in reality.
"Mercy" a subjective human abstraction without referent in reality.
"Goodness" a subjective human abstraction without referent in reality.
"Perfection" a subjective human abstraction without referent in reality.
"Hell" a subjective human abstraction without referent in reality.
"Paradise" a subjective human abstraction without referent in reality.
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:06 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
2- According to the Qur'an, Paradise is endless. But hell can be the end because there are expressions that make you think.
Wrong again.
Quote:
Those who followed will say, "If only we had another turn [at worldly life] so we could disassociate ourselves from them as they have disassociated themselves from us." Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets upon them. And they are never to emerge from the Fire.
It's amazing how much you get wrong about your own book. I hope it's not on purpose.
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Old 21st October 2017, 10:24 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Wrong again.


It's amazing how much you get wrong about your own book. I hope it's not on purpose.
This isn't that surprising. The vast majority of Christians I've met have barely read more than bits and pieces of the Bible. I considered myself a Christian until I actually forced myself to read the Bible.
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Old 21st October 2017, 10:45 AM   #204
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emre, the Quran definitely says hell is forever, here is another verse

5.36. As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty.
5.37. Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out therefrom: their penalty will be one that endures
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Old 21st October 2017, 11:00 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What makes them think that Thor's hammer creating thunder is silly
Not all thunder, only 'important' thunder when it's an Omen.
It's hard to tell the difference though.
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Old 21st October 2017, 01:14 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
1- I said Like the reward of the good, the punishment of evil/bad men is the result of his (Allah's) mercy, goodness and perfection.

2- According to the Qur'an, Paradise is endless. But hell can be the end because there are expressions that make you think.

3- There is no true and complete Torah. Your Old and New Testements are like hadith books. Not Real Torah or Bible.

Emre, you are talking to skeptics here, skeptics that would like to hear an argument, not just quoting parts of your book and statements of faith by you.

We would like to have answers to questions asked also. Is Allah the same god the Jews and Christians worship, is he the God of Abraham?
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Old 21st October 2017, 01:20 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acbytesla
What makes them think that Thor's hammer creating thunder is silly
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Not all thunder, only 'important' thunder when it's an Omen.
It's hard to tell the difference though.

Has to be the right kind of cloud and you have to get up into the bell of the cloud to pull it off.
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Old 21st October 2017, 01:21 PM   #208
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You must read the verse in full unto the Qur'an.

http://19.org/blog/hell/

And writes, in Paradise that there will be no more deaths than death in the world.

But there is no such statement for hell.

In addition, other expressions suggest that one day, hell may disappear.

Then the people and the demons in hell will also disappear.

But I said "can be" for this comment. I said "can be".

The verses in the Qur'an are suggesting this.

Read all the verses, not the verse that comes to your work.
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Old 21st October 2017, 01:59 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

We would like to have answers to questions asked also. Is Allah the same god the Jews and Christians worship, is he the God of Abraham?
Allah always sends us the religion of Islam.

But people have always changed their religion, books in the past.

They even changed the names of their religions. Like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism.

There is only one God and always sends the same religion.

Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad are all true Prophet of Islam.

Allah (God) says:

"Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah.s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah" (Al-i Imran 67.)

So the God who sent the Torah, Bible to the Qur'an is the same, and the only one.

But if you adore the trinity, for example, this is something you make up.

Now the only true holy book in your hand is the Quran.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 21st October 2017 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 21st October 2017, 02:18 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Allah always sends us the religion of Islam.

But people have always changed their religion, books in the past.

They even changed the names of their religions. Like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism.

There is only one God and always sends the same religion.

Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad are all true Prophet of Islam.

Allah (God) says:

"Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah.s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah" (Al-i Imran 67.)

So the God who sent the Torah, Bible to the Qur'an is the same, and the only one.

But if you adore the trinity, for example, this is something you make up.
Apparently, I am not on that mailing list. Can you provide a reference for it?
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Old 21st October 2017, 02:34 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Allah always sends us the religion of Islam.

But people have always changed their religion, books in the past.

They even changed the names of their religions. Like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism.

There is only one God and always sends the same religion.

Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad are all true Prophet of Islam.

Allah (God) says:

"Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah.s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah" (Al-i Imran 67.)

So the God who sent the Torah, Bible to the Qur'an is the same, and the only one.

But if you adore the trinity, for example, this is something you make up.

Now the only true holy book in your hand is the Quran.

OK, we may be getting somewhere now.

So Allah was the God of Abraham also. Can we assume then that all those who paid homage to this God, up until the time of Muhammad, were on the right track? Can we assume that all those who believed in the teachings of and followed Jesus, were on the right track, until Muhammad made his appearance? Did they find salvation?
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Old 21st October 2017, 02:42 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Allah always sends us the religion of Islam.

But people have always changed their religion, books in the past.

They even changed the names of their religions. Like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism.

There is only one God and always sends the same religion.

Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad are all true Prophet of Islam.

Allah (God) says:

"Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah.s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah" (Al-i Imran 67.)

So the God who sent the Torah, Bible to the Qur'an is the same, and the only one.

But if you adore the trinity, for example, this is something you make up.

Now the only true holy book in your hand is the Quran.
How God damn convenient. A catchall for every catchall and you don't have to prove any of it. Psychiatrists say that is an unfalsifiable delusion.
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Old 21st October 2017, 03:09 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You must read the verse in full unto the Qur'an.

http://19.org/blog/hell/

And writes, in Paradise that there will be no more deaths than death in the world.

But there is no such statement for hell.

In addition, other expressions suggest that one day, hell may disappear.

Then the people and the demons in hell will also disappear.

But I said "can be" for this comment. I said "can be".

The verses in the Qur'an are suggesting this.

Read all the verses, not the verse that comes to your work.
No. I'm not going to read to ass wipe that is your book until you come up with proof that Momo talked to a god and his instructions are in the book. You can't use the book to prove that Momo talked to a god.

Absent that proof, nothing you believe matters. It's all just made up nonsense. It's just like the Bible, Book of Mormon, and every other holy book. It's not real. And for pushing it, you have blood on your hands up to your elbows.
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Old 21st October 2017, 04:48 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You must read the verse in full unto the Qur'an.

http://19.org/blog/hell/

And writes, in Paradise that there will be no more deaths than death in the world.

But there is no such statement for hell.

In addition, other expressions suggest that one day, hell may disappear.

Then the people and the demons in hell will also disappear.

But I said "can be" for this comment. I said "can be".

The verses in the Qur'an are suggesting this.

Read all the verses, not the verse that comes to your work.
Are you making stuff up? The Quran clearly states hell will be forever.


4.121 They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in Hell, and from it they will find no way of escape.

4.168 Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- God will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-
4.169 Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to God is easy.

9.68 God hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of Hell: Therein shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of God, and an enduring punishment,

32.14 "Taste ye then - for ye forgot the Meeting of this Day of yours, and We too will forget you - taste ye the Penalty of Eternity for your (evil) deeds!"

41.28 Such is the requital of the enemies of God,- the Fire: therein will be for them the Eternal Home: a (fit) requital, for that they were wont to reject Our Sings.

72.23 "Unless I proclaim what I receive from God and His Messages: for any that disobey God and His Apostle,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever.
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Old 21st October 2017, 05:32 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You must read the verse in full unto the Qur'an.

http://19.org/blog/hell/

And writes, in Paradise that there will be no more deaths than death in the world.

But there is no such statement for hell.

In addition, other expressions suggest that one day, hell may disappear.

Then the people and the demons in hell will also disappear.

But I said "can be" for this comment. I said "can be".

The verses in the Qur'an are suggesting this.

Read all the verses, not the verse that comes to your work.
I said, Read the whole Qur'an.
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Old 21st October 2017, 05:46 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
I said, Read the whole Qur'an.
Give one reality-based reason for doing so - other than to become familiar with yet another steaming pile of nonsense.
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Old 21st October 2017, 05:46 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
OK, we may be getting somewhere now.

So Allah was the God of Abraham also. Can we assume then that all those who paid homage to this God, up until the time of Muhammad, were on the right track? Can we assume that all those who believed in the teachings of and followed Jesus, were on the right track, until Muhammad made his appearance? Did they find salvation?
If they don't to attribute a partner to (God), and if they are good people.

"Lo! those who believe and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve." (Bakara 62)
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Old 21st October 2017, 05:54 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
... whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day
Yet another source of the End Times / Judgement Day nonsense

Quote:
...and doeth right surely their reward is with their Lord...
Aside from realizing "doing right" is wildly subjective even though widely recognized, such precepts are found in any generally acceptable philosophy and no sky daddy required.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 07:07 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Yet another source of the End Times / Judgement Day nonsense



Aside from realizing "doing right" is wildly subjective even though widely recognized, such precepts are found in any generally acceptable philosophy and no sky daddy required.
God gives truthful truths and goodness.

Gives the objective.

People can turn towards the truth through the inside body verses(spirit) and the mind.

No one will do wrong or bad things in the paradise because people will be more supportive in the paradise with the verses(spirit).
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:03 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God gives truthful truths and goodness.

Gives the objective.

People can turn towards the truth through the inside body verses(spirit) and the mind.

No one will do wrong or bad things in the paradise because people will be more supportive in the paradise with the verses(spirit).
Do you have any idea that your posts read like a steaming pile of camel excrement? All you are doing is making assertions about God. Smart people require existential claims to be proven.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:13 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
I said, Read the whole Qur'an.
I have read all the stinking evil Quran three times since 9/11/01 because I wanted to know what would make people commit suicide in order to commit mass murder. I found the answers plain to see in the Quran.

A book based on the teachings of a cut throat Arab bandit who obviously tried to scare people into fighting for him by pretending to get a message from God.

The word hell appears over 100 times in the Quran, largely in the context of unbelievers in Muhammad being sent there to burn for eternity.

The Quran is repetitive, and mostly plagiarism from the bible.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:28 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You must read the verse in full unto the Qur'an.

http://19.org/blog/hell/

And writes, in Paradise that there will be no more deaths than death in the world.

But there is no such statement for hell.

In addition, other expressions suggest that one day, hell may disappear.

Then the people and the demons in hell will also disappear.

But I said "can be" for this comment. I said "can be".

The verses in the Qur'an are suggesting this.

Read all the verses, not the verse that comes to your work.
Show me the verses that say hell may disappear. I have read no such verse.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:07 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God gives truthful truths and goodness.

Gives the objective.

People can turn towards the truth through the inside body verses(spirit) and the mind.

No one will do wrong or bad things in the paradise because people will be more supportive in the paradise with the verses(spirit).
You continually circle back to trying to support your assertions with unproven and unprovable assumptions. As others have pointed out (frequently) you cannot use the Qur'an as proof of the Qur'an's veracity. Too many have shown too many times the Qur'an has no more veracity than any other "holy" manuscript - to wit: none whatsoever.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 01:14 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
truthful truths
This phrase made me laugh pretty hard.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 01:53 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
I said, Read the whole Qur'an.
I've read it. It's bollocks.

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Old 22nd October 2017, 02:02 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
If they don't to attribute a partner to (God), and if they are good people.

"Lo! those who believe and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve." (Bakara 62)

Can't really see an answer to my question here.

I want to know if the people who believed in Allah/God before the time of Muhammad found salvation.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:25 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
You continually circle back to trying to support your assertions with unproven and unprovable assumptions. As others have pointed out (frequently) you cannot use the Qur'an as proof of the Qur'an's veracity. Too many have shown too many times the Qur'an has no more veracity than any other "holy" manuscript - to wit: none whatsoever.
This reminds me a bit of the song that we use to sing in Bible school as a child.

'Yes Jesus loves me for the Bible tells me so
Jesus loves me this I know
For the Bible tells me so'

Not exactly the same thing going but close. The Bible being the ultimate authority of truth. Emre does this with Quran. Everything circles back to his book.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:06 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Can't really see an answer to my question here.

I want to know if the people who believed in Allah/God before the time of Muhammad found salvation.
I answered very clearly.

There is no distinction between before and after Muhammad.

They are all Islam prophets.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 22nd October 2017 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:14 PM   #229
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I just learned a new concept: the Bare Assertion Fallacy.

There is hardly anything more boring, droll and pointless than someone just spouting assertions based on scripture or revelation to an audience of those who do not share the same faith.

Makes me wonder about the motivation.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:49 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Allah always sends us the religion of Islam.
No, I do not.

Quote:
But people have always changed their religion, books in the past.

They even changed the names of their religions. Like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism.
I gave humans free will. They are free to believe what they will.

Quote:
There is only one God and always sends the same religion.
Nah. I never did that. Wanted to see what people would come up with.

Quote:
Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad are all true Prophet of Islam.
Nope. So sorry. Abraham was a putz, Jesus thought he was my son, though he came close. decent guy. Muhammad? Ahh.. no.



Quote:
Allah (God) says:

"Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah.s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah" (Al-i Imran 67.)
Nope. No Islam there. Besides, I (God, creator of everything) did not say that. Pretty sure I'd remember.


Quote:
So the God who sent the Torah, Bible to the Qur'an is the same, and the only one.

But if you adore the trinity, for example, this is something you make up.

Now the only true holy book in your hand is the Quran.
Nope. None of the books are Holy in My eyes. They are all made up, and written by men.

Again, so sorry.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:55 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I just learned a new concept: the Bare Assertion Fallacy.

There is hardly anything more boring, droll and pointless than someone just spouting assertions based on scripture or revelation to an audience of those who do not share the same faith.

Makes me wonder about the motivation.
I'm pretty sure there is a command to convert the unbelievers or eventually kill them. I believe that unbelievers are suppose to pay some kind of tax. Coercion is big with them.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:49 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
I answered very clearly.

There is no distinction between before and after Muhammad.

They are all Islam prophets.

OK if I understand you correctly now. Salvation was possible before Muhammad then.

If that is so why did we need Muhammed? Further to this what about those that continued to worship Allah/God directly like the Jews and via Jesus after Muhammed. They were getting salvation that way before so why not after? Considering many would not have even heard of Muhammed.

This is one of the thorny questions that is bothersome to Christianity. Do you have an answer for it in Islam?
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Old 23rd October 2017, 09:03 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The Quran is repetitive, and mostly plagiarism from the bible.
'S funny; Spiritualism is good to go. Islam? Why it's all kinds of silly. Why is that?
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Old 23rd October 2017, 09:06 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God gives truthful truths and goodness.
You keep saying that. Repeating it does not defend it. Is this all you have in your quiver? Are all your arrows so limp?

Poor lost waif.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 09:31 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Like the reward of the good, the punishment of evil is the result of his (Allah's) mercy, goodness and perfection.
Have you actually read the quotes of hell in the Quran ?

Pouring boiling liquids on people that will melt their skins and their insides also.
Making garments of fire, etc. And this for all eternity.

Then you talk about Allah's mercy, goodness and perfection.

Are you sure you have the right God?
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Old 23rd October 2017, 09:35 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
'S funny; Spiritualism is good to go. Islam? Why it's all kinds of silly. Why is that?
If spiritualism is true then Islam is not. For example spiritualism teaches there will be no hellfire and there is no devil. There is no eternal hell, all souls are ultimately redeemed and made perfect.

Besides it ought to be obvious to a brain dead mule that Muhammad made up the Quran to suit his own evil ends.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 10:55 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If spiritualism is true then Islam is not. For example spiritualism teaches there will be no hellfire and there is no devil. There is no eternal hell, all souls are ultimately redeemed and made perfect.

Besides it ought to be obvious to a brain dead mule that Muhammad made up the Quran to suit his own evil ends.
Aye, and this mule goes one ism further.

Are you so dim that you can't see how you hug what you reject?

Here's an idea: entertain the sober thought that spiritualism is just as ersatz as Islam.

Where does this lead? If you reject the thought, then you must do so with integrity. This would mean you have to allow Islam; the Quran; all of it.

You are on a boat with a spear, poking holes in boats alongside. First, you need to realize that you're on a boat.

Your integrity right now is zero because you speak with a forked tongue.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 01:04 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
OK if I understand you correctly now. Salvation was possible before Muhammad then.

If that is so why did we need Muhammed? Further to this what about those that continued to worship Allah/God directly like the Jews and via Jesus after Muhammed. They were getting salvation that way before so why not after? Considering many would not have even heard of Muhammed.

This is one of the thorny questions that is bothersome to Christianity. Do you have an answer for it in Islam?
1- People changed religion. Even his books and names. Most Christians have even begun to worship the trinity, and this is paganism.

So it's not about before or after Muhammad.

The issue here is to get away from Islam.

True religion and truth only in Qur'an now.

I said "If they don't to attribute a partner to (God), and if they are good people." they will salvation.

But Many Christians worship the trinity.

Many Christians and Jewish rabbis see priests and saints as religious authorities. This is a company.They attribute partners to (God), this is paganism.

God is the only authority in the field of religion.

Real Islam is only in Quran.

2- When a person reads the Qur'an, he should be respect even if he is not a Muslim.

Who follow these details will always reach salvation in the Hereafter.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 23rd October 2017 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 01:16 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God is the only authority in the field of religion.
Well, we don't have to listen to you then. Sorted.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 01:34 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
1- People changed religion. Even his books and names. Most Christians have even begun to worship the trinity, and this is paganism.

So it's not about before or after Muhammad.

The issue here is to get away from Islam.

True religion and truth only in Qur'an now.

I said "If they don't to attribute a partner to (God), and if they are good people." they will salvation.

But Many Christians worship the trinity.

Many Christians and Jewish rabbis see priests and saints as religious authorities. This is a company.They attribute partners to (God), this is paganism.

God is the only authority in the field of religion.

Real Islam is only in Quran.

2- When a person reads the Qur'an, he should be respect even if he is not a Muslim.

Who follow these details will always reach salvation in the Hereafter.


It is so funny reading the remarks of an adherent of one batcrap religion say that other batcrap religions are wrong.
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