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Old 22nd October 2017, 04:21 AM   #41
Garrison
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And the Brexiteer's woes multiply as it appears Labour has decided to make a stand on the repeal bill:

Labour demands changes to Brexit repeal bill

Sir Keir Starmer the Shadow Brexit Secretary demanded that:

Quote:
MPs get the "final say on whether to approve the withdrawal agreement and how best to implement it"

The transition period requested by Prime Minister Theresa May is added into the legislation

A "completely different approach" to the use of powers the government argues are needed to make technical changes to regulations from Brussels

A guarantee that workers' and consumer rights, as well as environmental standards, are not watered down after Brexit

A concession to devolved administrations who want repatriated powers that would normally fall under their remit to go straight to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, rather than the Westminster government first

Putting the EU charter of fundamental rights into UK law
Given that there are more than enough Tory rebels taking pretty much the same line to defeat the government May is up to her neck in it again.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 04:41 AM   #42
Hubert Cumberdale
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
How do you think all non-EU countries get their nuclear medicine material? You think they've all spent tens of billions of pounds or more setting up a means to do that?
I note that you are

1. Dodging the question.

2. Pretending that a new regulator to replace Euratom is the only thing that will need resources after Brexit
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Old 22nd October 2017, 04:54 AM   #43
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Looks like we're being prepared for a "no deal" Brexit

Quote:
But International Trade Secretary Liam Fox said a failure to agree a deal was "not exactly a nightmare scenario".

The UK was preparing "mitigation" measures for such an outcome, he said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41713533

Sure, it will all be fine

I thought that this would be the easiest deal ever and that our post-Brexit trade deal with the EU would be better than our current one. Looks like the incompetent idiots in charge of the negotiations are intent on crashing the UK economy - why ?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:16 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Looks like we're being prepared for a "no deal" Brexit



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41713533

Sure, it will all be fine
Almost certainly it won't be/

Quote:
I thought that this would be the easiest deal ever and that our post-Brexit trade deal with the EU would be better than our current one. Looks like the incompetent idiots in charge of the negotiations are intent on crashing the UK economy - why ?
I think the answer to your question is contained in the question itself.... just a feeling.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:20 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Looks like we're being prepared for a "no deal" Brexit



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41713533

Sure, it will all be fine

I thought that this would be the easiest deal ever and that our post-Brexit trade deal with the EU would be better than our current one. Looks like the incompetent idiots in charge of the negotiations are intent on crashing the UK economy - why ?
I wouldn't say 'intent on', just 'not much bothered about'.

It would be cynical to suggest that they have their directorships, book deals, consultancies and places on the lecture tour already pretty much guaranteed. So I will, as I despair of the whole sorry crew.

"Record-breakingly inept" and "Mad as a box of frogs" are two recent comments that made me smile
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:20 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Looks like we're being prepared for a "no deal" Brexit



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41713533

Sure, it will all be fine

I thought that this would be the easiest deal ever and that our post-Brexit trade deal with the EU would be better than our current one. Looks like the incompetent idiots in charge of the negotiations are intent on crashing the UK economy - why ?
I'm starting to think that some are looking forward to their nice Dachas
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Old 22nd October 2017, 06:33 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
You mean the very real problem that people like yourself pretended would just go away?
Actually, I had to do quite a bit of programming work to mitigate potential Y2K problems myself.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 06:34 AM   #48
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Surely at some point one of the Tories involved in this game of chicken has to break ranks and actually admit that we would be better off not going through with this fustercluck?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 06:36 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
- Ceptimus hasn't actually given any benefits for Brexit.
Not true. I suppose it's understandable that you could forget given how long and repetitive these Brexit threads have become.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 06:39 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Surely at some point one of the Tories involved in this game of chicken has to break ranks and actually admit that we would be better off not going through with this fustercluck?
One would hope that the EU negotiators would start to actually, you know, negotiate. So far they're just stalling to try to extort more money from us.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 06:42 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And the Brexiteer's woes multiply as it appears Labour has decided to make a stand on the repeal bill:

Labour demands changes to Brexit repeal bill

Sir Keir Starmer the Shadow Brexit Secretary demanded
Yet another example of open and closet remainers doing their best to make the Brexit process flounder and fail. But they'll keep trying to insist that the delays, extra costs, and ultimately worse outcome for all concerned are not their fault.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 06:55 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Actually, I had to do quite a bit of programming work to mitigate potential Y2K problems myself.
So you're perfectly well aware that your previous post about Y2K was nonsense, or is it this latest claim that's false?


Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Yet another example of open and closet remainers doing their best to make the Brexit process flounder and fail. But they'll keep trying to insist that the delays, extra costs, and ultimately worse outcome for all concerned are not their fault.

And if you could point to which of the six requirements that you find so objectionable? I mean is protecting workers rights an extra cost? is insisting on human rights being maintained in UK law a worse outcome? Just how much are you willing to sacrifice in the name of your xenophobia? And it is xenophobia because you have miserably failed to offer up any other reason for Brexit other than keeping out the foreigners.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 07:02 AM   #53
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What countries actually trade under WTO rules at the moment

https://medium.com/@MrWeeble/who-act...s-1b6127ce33c6

Mauritania
, except that below the line it is pointed out that Mauritania it has a preferential agreement with the EU


Not quite the same as the Leave meme
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So you're perfectly well aware that your previous post about Y2K was nonsense, or is it this latest claim that's false?
Condescend much?

I said the Y2K bug was ludicrously over-hyped. And it was. At the time people were worried about planes dropping from the sky and other such nonsense - the engineers had it all in hand, of course.

It's just the same now. Chicken Littles trying to frighten people that planes won't fly and medicines won't be available. I'm happy to wager real money that these things won't happen.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:27 AM   #55
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Except the bunch handling brexit are not engineers or even sensible people.

They are morons, and scared, dazed, don't have a clue what the **** is going on morons.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:37 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I said the Y2K bug was ludicrously over-hyped. And it was. At the time people were worried about planes dropping from the sky and other such nonsense - the engineers had it all in hand, of course.

It's just the same now. Chicken Littles trying to frighten people that planes won't fly and medicines won't be available. I'm happy to wager real money that these things won't happen.
Are you claiming the experts have it all in hand here? If not, your analogy fails. If so [citation needed].
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:40 AM   #57
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It wasn't the politicians who fixed the Y2K bugs either. It was people like me.

It will be the same with Brexit - once the politicians have moved along with their time-wasting dance, it will be down to people who actually work for a living to make the necessary changes.

Some things certainly won't be complete by the target date - the politicians have already wasted over a year. There will have to be an interim period where many things carry on as at present.

Even if the politicians had got their act together (and in my opinion it's mainly the EU side that are delaying things) then it still doesn't make sense to try to change everything over on the same day - much better to plan a phased process where, say, regulations about medicine come into force on one day, and regulations about flights some other day.

Plan the most important and/or easily achievable changes to take place straight away and the less important or more difficult ones later. As with any large complex project you'll expect some time overruns on some issues and the sensible adult approach on those is to say, "We're not ready to make that change yet - so until we are we'll carry on doing things the way we have for the last several decades."

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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:44 AM   #58
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A complex project needs a plan. These monkeys have nothing.

With apologies to actual real monkeys, who are probably brighter.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:53 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Condescend much?

I said the Y2K bug was ludicrously over-hyped. And it was. At the time people were worried about planes dropping from the sky and other such nonsense - the engineers had it all in hand, of course.

It's just the same now. Chicken Littles trying to frighten people that planes won't fly and medicines won't be available. I'm happy to wager real money that these things won't happen.
OK - some specifics:

At the moment flights to the EU 27 are handled within EU regulations as of April 1st 2019, they won't be. What needs to be done to enable the flights to legally fly between the EU27 and the UK on that day? What has been done so far for that? What evidence is there that this is getting attention? If this is sorted as far as flights are concerned, what impact does this have on the passport queues? Where is the massive recruitment of the UK Border agency to deal with the increased need for checking passengers without causing massive delays?

What about nuclear power? How do we deal with regulations for importing nuclear fuel on April 1st 2019 without having agreed these regulations with the external bodies? What needs to be done to enable this and what has been done so far? What evidence is there that this is getting attention?

What about the food supply chain? At present, much of our supermarket infrastructure is integrated into the rest of the EU, and can be shipped in from Rotterdam as and when it's needed. What happens on 1st April 2019? What is the status of the planning for the massively increased customs load on April 1st 2019? What happens to import and export of perishable goods? Where is the massive recruitment of HMRC customs officers to prevent a backlog?

Where is the evidence that David Davis even understands these? Where is the evidence that David Davis has a credible plan to work out what is needed. Where is the evidence that even if he had a plan to work out what is needed, he has a plan to implement the required actions in time for April 1st 2019?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:54 AM   #60
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The EU plan is to extort as much money as possible from the UK before even allowing the negotiations on the real issues to begin.

The UK plan was to keep trade free but take control of our borders and laws. In the face of EU obstructionism the current UK plan seems to be to wait till the EU realize that they have a lot to lose too - and so begin to negotiate in good faith.

I've said many times here that I thought the negotiations would be a complete waste of time - and so far I've been proved right. It's a tragedy that the politicians have stalled the process for so long already - but that's what politicians do.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:57 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It wasn't the politicians who fixed the Y2K bugs either. It was people like me.

It will be the same with Brexit - once the politicians have moved along with their time-wasting dance, it will be down to people who actually work for a living to make the necessary changes.

Some things certainly won't be complete by the target date - the politicians have already wasted over a year. There will have to be an interim period where many things carry on as at present.

Even if the politicians had got their act together (and in my opinion it's mainly the EU side that are delaying things) then it still doesn't make sense to try to change everything over on the same day - much better to plan a phased process where, say, regulations about medicine come into force on one day, and regulations about flights some other day.

Plan the most important and/or easily achievable changes to take place straight away and the less important or more difficult ones later. As with any large complex project you'll expect some time overruns on some issues and the sensible adult approach on those is to say, "We're not ready to make that change yet - so until we are we'll carry on doing things the way we have for the last several decades."
Has it occurred to you that the EU has far less to lose. May hasn't told the Conservative party what she wants, which is because the Tories can't agree. At the moment, for some reason, they can just about agree that May is better than Corbyn.

Our negotiating position seems to be "give us what we want... er once we have decided on it... or we'll cut off one of our feet and you don't want blood all over your nice suit."
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:59 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The EU plan is to extort as much money as possible from the UK before even allowing the negotiations on the real issues to begin.

The UK plan was to keep trade free but take control of our borders and laws. In the face of EU obstructionism the current UK plan seems to be to wait till the EU realize that they have a lot to lose too - and so begin to negotiate in good faith.

I've said many times here that I thought the negotiations would be a complete waste of time - and so far I've been proved right. It's a tragedy that the politicians have stalled the process for so long already - but that's what politicians do.
What exactly does this mean?

How precisely was this to have been implemented? I'm *really* interested to learn the specifics, because it seems to me that May doesn't know this yet.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:04 AM   #63
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What specifics do you want? UK leave the EU and no longer have MEPs or other political representation. No tariffs on any goods or trade. End to free movement of people. EU Law no longer trumps UK law. This is what the leave side have been advocating for many years before the referendum even.

It's the remain side that can't or won't say what they want. Of course what they really want is to remain, but given that we're leaving they don't seem to be able to suggest any coherent alternative arrangements that they can agree on.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:08 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
What specifics do you want? UK leave the EU and no longer have MEPs or other political representation. No tariffs on any goods or trade. End to free movement of people. EU Law no longer trumps UK law. This is what the leave side have been advocating for many years before the referendum even.

It's the remain side that can't or won't say what they want. Of course what they really want is to remain, but given that we're leaving they don't seem to be able to suggest any coherent alternative arrangements that they can agree on.
The EU will impose tariffs on trade in that scenario - indeed, they'd have to under WTO rules impose the same tariffs on the UK as they do on any other third country with whom they have no trade deal.

If the UK wants to impose no tariffs on anything from the EU, they too would have the same tariff free regime for the entire world, which means British agriculture, and much of British industry would be competing with goods made in places where people work for a penny a week.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:11 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
How do you think all non-EU countries get their nuclear medicine material? You think they've all spent tens of billions of pounds or more setting up a means to do that?

Funny you should mention that.

In that article linked to up (last)-thread they pointed out that the nuclear power industry, which supplies 20% of the U.K.'s power, can last through a certain amount of reorganization while new protocols and regulatory apparatus are put in place, because they have sufficient fuel to continue operations for a while.

But the nuclear medicine industry is different. The materials they use as radiation sources have relatively short half-lives, some measured in days.

Without a system in place to oversee the sales and transportation of such hazardous materials across the U.K borders in place those stocks will be gone very quickly.

And all such materials come from across those borders, since the U.K. doesn't produce them.

So the lights will still be on at the treatment facilities that need them but there won't be any treatments.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:19 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
...snip...

So the lights will still be on at the treatment facilities that need them but there won't be any treatments.
Be funny (not in a haha way) if the NHSs end up having to fly UK patients to Europe to get or continue their treatments!
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:20 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It wasn't the politicians who fixed the Y2K bugs either.
because that was an engineering issue. Brexit is a political issue, you know, the sort of thing we elect politicians to deal with on our behalf.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:21 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The EU plan is to extort as much money as possible from the UK before even allowing the negotiations on the real issues to begin.

The UK plan was to keep trade free but take control of our borders and laws. In the face of EU obstructionism the current UK plan seems to be to wait till the EU realize that they have a lot to lose too - and so begin to negotiate in good faith.

I've said many times here that I thought the negotiations would be a complete waste of time - and so far I've been proved right. It's a tragedy that the politicians have stalled the process for so long already - but that's what politicians do.
Again, you are just dodging the question
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:23 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
What specifics do you want? UK leave the EU and no longer have MEPs or other political representation. No tariffs on any goods or trade. End to free movement of people. EU Law no longer trumps UK law. This is what the leave side have been advocating for many years before the referendum even.

It's the remain side that can't or won't say what they want. Of course what they really want is to remain, but given that we're leaving they don't seem to be able to suggest any coherent alternative arrangements that they can agree on.
Nope - the remain side couldn't be more clear what they want, you'll find a lot of what they want in painstaking detail here.

Can you tell me how when the Government wants to leave, when the whole process is being directed and overseen by those who campaigned to leave the EU it is the fault of those who wanted to remain that more progress hasn't been made?

As far as I know there are no "remainers" in charge of the negotiations
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:25 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
because that was an engineering issue. Brexit is a political issue, you know, the sort of thing we elect politicians to deal with on our behalf.
Yes, but you only expect the politicians to sign the documents, agree how much money to hand over, and set some target dates. You don't expect them to actually build port facilities, hire workers, write the documents they sign and so on - that is proper work to be done by non-politicians once the politicians provide the targets and route taxpayers' money in the appropriate directions.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:26 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The EU plan is to extort as much money as possible from the UK before even allowing the negotiations on the real issues to begin.
You keep saying this, repletion does not make it true. The EU wants to settle the matter of how much money we owe before moving on to other matters, blame

Quote:
The UK plan Leave lie was to keep trade free but take control of our borders and laws.
Edited for truthfulness. The Leave side knew full well that was impossible, but kept repeating the lie to win votes, but hey the fact they can't deliver what they promised is no good reason to reconsider Brexit apparently.

Quote:
I've said many times here that I thought the negotiations would be a complete waste of time - and so far I've been proved right. It's a tragedy that the politicians have stalled the process for so long already - but that's what politicians do.
of course you've said that, because you don't care if the economy crashes burns so long as we get rid of all the foreigners.


Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Yes, but you only expect the politicians to sign the documents, agree how much money to hand over, and set some target dates. You don't expect them to actually build port facilities, hire workers, write the documents they sign and so on - that is proper work to be done by non-politicians once the politicians provide the targets and route taxpayers' money in the appropriate directions.
This is just pointless waffle, the politicians are the ones in charge of Brexit, they've proven incompetent at negotiating for Brexit and preparing for the possible failure of Brexit negotiation.
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Last edited by Garrison; 22nd October 2017 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:27 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Yes, but you only expect the politicians to sign the documents, agree how much money to hand over, and set some target dates. You don't expect them to actually build port facilities, hire workers, write the documents they sign and so on - that is proper work to be done by non-politicians once the politicians provide the targets and route taxpayers' money in the appropriate directions.
What has David Davis done as far as that is concerned? I know it must be galling for him having to spend nearly half of every week with people who are so obviously his intellectual superiors and who have sufficient work ethic to actually prepare, but he knew what he signed up for, when he took the job and maybe he should start providing some guidance as to what the targets are and how it is to be funded.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:27 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As far as I know there are no "remainers" in charge of the negotiations
That's a laugh. You think Michel Barnier and his acolytes are all ardent leavers?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:29 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The EU plan is to extort as much money as possible from the UK before even allowing the negotiations on the real issues to begin.
Why shouldn't they?

The only reason one would be upset about this is if one thought that our side i.e. the UK government wasn't going to try and get the best settlement for the UK...

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The UK plan was to keep trade free but take control of our borders and laws. In the face of EU obstructionism the current UK plan seems to be to wait till the EU realize that they have a lot to lose too - and so begin to negotiate in good faith.
There was no plan! And sadly there appears to still be no plan!
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I've said many times here that I thought the negotiations would be a complete waste of time - and so far I've been proved right. It's a tragedy that the politicians have stalled the process for so long already - but that's what politicians do.
Hmm... I take it you think we will be invading the EU to impose what we want? Otherwise how will we ever be able to enforce a non-negotiated "agreement"?

Negotiations aren't optional.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:30 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Looks like we're being prepared for a "no deal" Brexit

Quote:
But International Trade Secretary Liam Fox said a failure to agree a deal was "not exactly a nightmare scenario".

The UK was preparing "mitigation" measures for such an outcome, he said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41713533

Sure, it will all be fine

I thought that this would be the easiest deal ever and that our post-Brexit trade deal with the EU would be better than our current one. Looks like the incompetent idiots in charge of the negotiations are intent on crashing the UK economy - why ?
Quote:
the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something
Sounds like an admission that things are going to be bad, and they hope to have measures in place to keep it from being as bad as it could be.

Just not sure what those measures are yet.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:30 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
What has David Davis done as far as that is concerned? I know it must be galling for him having to work nearly half a week, but maybe he should start providing some guidance as to what the targets are and how it is to be funded.
He can't do that until the EU either actually negotiate a trade agreement or they delay and obfuscate for so long that it becomes clear that there won't be such an agreement.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:31 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's a laugh. You think Michel Barnier and his acolytes are all ardent leavers?
Liam Fox - a remainer?
David Davis - a remianer?
Johnson - a remainer?

Pull the other one!
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:32 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
He can't do that until the heEU either actually negotiate a trade agreement or hethey delay and obfuscate for so long that it becomes clear that there won't be such an agreement.
FTFY
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:33 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
OK - some specifics:

At the moment flights to the EU 27 are handled within EU regulations as of April 1st 2019, they won't be. What needs to be done to enable the flights to legally fly between the EU27 and the UK on that day? What has been done so far for that? What evidence is there that this is getting attention? If this is sorted as far as flights are concerned, what impact does this have on the passport queues? Where is the massive recruitment of the UK Border agency to deal with the increased need for checking passengers without causing massive delays?

What about nuclear power? How do we deal with regulations for importing nuclear fuel on April 1st 2019 without having agreed these regulations with the external bodies? What needs to be done to enable this and what has been done so far? What evidence is there that this is getting attention?

What about the food supply chain? At present, much of our supermarket infrastructure is integrated into the rest of the EU, and can be shipped in from Rotterdam as and when it's needed. What happens on 1st April 2019? What is the status of the planning for the massively increased customs load on April 1st 2019? What happens to import and export of perishable goods? Where is the massive recruitment of HMRC customs officers to prevent a backlog?

Where is the evidence that David Davis even understands these? Where is the evidence that David Davis has a credible plan to work out what is needed. Where is the evidence that even if he had a plan to work out what is needed, he has a plan to implement the required actions in time for April 1st 2019?

April Fools' Day is going take on an entirely different meaning in 2019 in the U.K.?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:34 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's a laugh. You think Michel Barnier and his acolytes are all ardent leavers?
Oh - a part of my post you apparently missed:
Can you tell me how when the Government wants to leave, when the whole process is being directed and overseen by those who campaigned to leave the EU it is the fault of those who wanted to remain that more progress hasn't been made?
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