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Tags donald trump , Michael Flynn , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 4th December 2017, 09:34 AM   #281
Giordano
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The way it works is if you tell the feds you had oatmeal for breakfast on a particular date 2 months ago, but told them yesterday you had Cream of Wheat, that is a felony, locked in and on tape. No way out. It is a false statement, and relevance to the investigation is irrelevant.
Sure- happens every day and I am glad you brought this up! Happened to me just a year ago but it was cornflakes versus Cherios. Luckily they allow me access to this computer in the prison library and I should be released on parole by next June.

Oh- you did leave out the jury trial and sentencing by the judge. I was lucky there too- the jury was very sympathetic and so didn't convict me on the "eating soggy cereal" charge and the judge threw out the capital punishment option.

Last edited by Giordano; 4th December 2017 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:49 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The one in which you desperately want to downplay something that looks like the first of a bunch of dominoes falling.
The attempts at denial by the Trump supporters seem pitiful ("sad"?) to me. The play has opened and the script is precisely that used over and over again in the past to uncover illegal conspiracies. I don't know if Trump will be President or not at the end of Act V of this play, but I am certain that Flynn cooperating with Mueller means for Trump and his administration the same as what "Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill shall come..." meant for MacBeth.

As a relevant real life example (for those too young to remember) I suggest considering James Dean and his role in how the Watergate scandal was uncovered. Very clear parallels.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:09 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
In what universe?
That is the way it works. That is why you should never talk to a fed without first consulting a lawyer. It is why EVERYONE on the right said this witch hunt would result in them taking down a few people for "lying" to the feds, then try to use that to force their victims to atttempt to find anything to give the feds to make it go away. That is why when the grand triumph of an indictment for "lying" is issued, it is actually a failure, i.e. a nothingburger in today's terminology. The feds' power is indeed so broad that the "false" information provided to them doesn't need to be even remotely related to what is actually being investigated. Indeed, Mueller's title should be "Special Counsel in Charge of Securing Perjury Traps".
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:09 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The one in which you desperately want to downplay something that looks like the first of a bunch of dominoes falling.

I don't think a year into the Trump election you red-eyed Russia truthers are in a position to call other people desperate.

And why the first domino? What's will Manafort and that _dopoulus guy? Fell into the void because the chain only exists in your imagination fueled by pre$$titute media.

Seriously, your energy would be better spent with opposing Trump's actual policies instead of wasting time with this nonsense. It will not only not lead to you getting rid of Trump, it will backfire and you should be detached a bit before that happens. Not that the mean Trumpers laugh over new buckets full of "liberal tears" when the boomerang hits in the end...
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:24 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The attempts at denial by the Trump supporters seem pitiful ("sad"?) to me. The play has opened and the script is precisely that used over and over again in the past to uncover illegal conspiracies. I don't know if Trump will be President or not at the end of Act V of this play, but I am certain that Flynn cooperating with Mueller means for Trump and his administration the same as what "Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill shall come..." meant for MacBeth.

As a relevant real life example (for those too young to remember) I suggest considering James Dean and his role in how the Watergate scandal was uncovered. Very clear parallels.
John???
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:35 AM   #286
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If Flynn pled guilty to an oatmeal for breakfast question, then he and his lawyer should be summarily executed for terminal stupidity.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:40 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Well pardon the **** out of me.
I hoped the Brady reference would show that the jab was light hearted. Maybe it was too close to the heart.


Quote:
It seemed for like a post or two that junior had thoughts of having an actual conversation.
There are several years of history to the contrary. Good on you for trying, though.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:55 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The way it works is if you tell the feds you had oatmeal for breakfast on a particular date 2 months ago, but told them yesterday you had Cream of Wheat, that is a felony, locked in and on tape. No way out. It is a false statement, and relevance to the investigation is irrelevant.
I think maybe you should reread the guilty plea if you really think he plead guilty of lying about irrelevant statements.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:47 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think maybe you should reread the guilty plea if you really think he plead guilty of lying about irrelevant statements.
And what has kind of been lost in the shuffle, the crime of that lying was specifically that the lies obstructed the investigation into Russian interfering in the election.
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:33 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If Flynn pled guilty to an oatmeal for breakfast question, then he and his lawyer should be summarily executed for terminal stupidity.
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think maybe you should reread the guilty plea if you really think he plead guilty of lying about irrelevant statements.

Yeah, it's weird... It's as if some people are implying that Flynn and his lawyer are too stupid to know when Flynn hasn't done anything wrong.
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:47 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Yeah, it's weird... It's as if some people are implying that Flynn and his lawyer are too stupid to know when Flynn hasn't done anything wrong.
FLETC was a long time ago but I believe the statute reads "as to a material fact". You can't be charge for lying for something immaterial to the matter at hand.
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Old 4th December 2017, 05:27 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by carrps View Post
John???
It wasn't the country-western singer with the breakfast sausages??? Or the actor who played the troubled characters and drove too fast? Wetren't they also involved with the Watergate break in or the cover up?

Oops- I stand corrected.
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Old 4th December 2017, 05:34 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
And why the first domino? What's will Manafort and that _dopoulus guy?
They've been indicted. Flynn has flipped. There is a very meaningful difference.

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Seriously, your energy would be better spent with opposing Trump's actual policies
No worries. I'm doing that, too.
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Old 4th December 2017, 05:48 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And what has kind of been lost in the shuffle, the crime of that lying was specifically that the lies obstructed the investigation into Russian interfering in the election.
No, no...“willfully and knowingly” making “false, fictitious and fraudulent statements” to the FBI about his conversations with Russia’s ambassador is exactly like misremembering Honey Nut vs Apple Cinnamon Cheerios.
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Old 4th December 2017, 05:51 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Flynn has flipped.

That's your opinion.

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
No worries. I'm doing that, too.

Fine.
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Old 4th December 2017, 05:59 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
That's your opinion.
True, it is still early and a lot could still happen, but it is not just my opinion.

There is no reason for Flynn to not fight the measly charge if it's not part of a deal to get out of something worse. He plead guilty because Mueller made it worth it.
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Old 4th December 2017, 06:29 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
There is no reason for Flynn to not fight the measly charge if it's not part of a deal to get out of something worse. He plead guilty because Mueller made it worth it.

How could he fight them? There's no doubt he lied about these things. But there could be a reason for Mueller to get this off the table without much more attention to how the lying came about. If you have some time, here's a detailed argument along those lines. We'll see what happens but I'm pretty sure it will turn out that your opinion is based on flawed information.
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Old 4th December 2017, 06:37 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
How could he fight them? There's no doubt he lied about these things. But there could be a reason for Mueller to get this off the table without much more attention to how the lying came about. If you have some time, here's a detailed argument along those lines. We'll see what happens but I'm pretty sure it will turn out that your opinion is based on flawed information.
He easily could have fought it. People take lesser **** to trial all of the time, and with just as much, if not more, evidence. He could have trotted out any myriad of defenses, but he didn't. He was charged and plead without as much as a whimper.
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Old 4th December 2017, 07:40 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
How could he fight them? There's no doubt he lied about these things. But there could be a reason for Mueller to get this off the table without much more attention to how the lying came about. If you have some time, here's a detailed argument along those lines. We'll see what happens but I'm pretty sure it will turn out that your opinion is based on flawed information.
I'm not familiar with that website, but that does seems like a reasonable argument presented.

I'm still 50/50 on if something Russia related could bring Trump down or not. I sense the Russians would have tried to help literally any American running for office who didn't seems to be a fan of our military adventurism in the ME, the same way Gulf Oil Monarchies can be expected to root for US politicians who defer to Kissinger's school of geopolitical thought.
Geostrategy is weird, grotesque stuff all around. It's just taken as de facto "legal" when the personalities involved are of a certain, established class.
I'm reminded of little Nayirah on CNN, weeping over Kuwait incubator babies.
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Old 4th December 2017, 07:47 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
How could he fight them?
The Sessions Defense.
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Last edited by Upchurch; 4th December 2017 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 4th December 2017, 07:58 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
True, it is still early and a lot could still happen, but it is not just my opinion.

There is no reason for Flynn to not fight the measly charge if it's not part of a deal to get out of something worse. He plead guilty because Mueller made it worth it.
Pleading to a weak process crime doesn’t say much for Muellers case.
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:00 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He easily could have fought it. People take lesser **** to trial all of the time, and with just as much, if not more, evidence. He could have trotted out any myriad of defenses, but he didn't. He was charged and plead without as much as a whimper.
Takes money to do that, why fight it when you’re presented with an easy out.
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:07 PM   #303
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What would be hilarious is if the Trump regime falls because of obstruction of justice and it is found out that they were trying to cover up a non-crime in the first place!
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:11 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Takes money to do that, why fight it when you’re presented with an easy out.
Pleading guilty to a felony, which could result in serving time in jail, is an "easy out"?
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:22 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
What would be hilarious is if the Trump regime falls because of obstruction of justice and it is found out that they were trying to cover up a non-crime in the first place!
Have you too forgotten about the Donnie Jr meeting with the Russians? And all those coincidentally timed Trump announcements about dirt soon to be released? Then there was the change in the GOP platform on the Ukraine? Trump's not so successful efforts getting Russian sanctions overturned and his current foot dragging about implementing some new ones?

Are people really that distracted by current events that they cannot keep the recent past events in their line of sight as well?
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:24 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Pleading guilty to a felony, which could result in serving time in jail, is an "easy out"?
The whole point of pleading guilty?
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:25 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Have you too forgotten about the Donnie Jr meeting with the Russians? And all those coincidentally timed Trump announcements about dirt soon to be released? Then there was the change in the GOP platform on the Ukraine? Trump's not so successful efforts getting Russian sanctions overturned and his current foot dragging about implementing some new ones?

Are people really that distracted by current events that they cannot keep the recent past events in their line of sight as well?
A big juicy nothing burger.
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:39 PM   #308
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So now Trump's lawyer is essentially saying, on record, what Trump said in the tweet: before the firing, Trump knew Flynn told the same lie to the FBI as he did to Pence.
Quote:
Dowd said Monday that White House lawyers did not expressly tell Trump that Flynn had lied to the FBI before he was fired. Rather, he said, Trump was told that Flynn "had said to the agents what he said to VP."

If Trump knew Flynn committed a possible felony by lying to FBI investigators, that could be a significant admission when it comes to obstruction of justice, according to lawyers who have followed the investigation.

“It’s harmful to him,” Georgetown University law professor Michael Seidman said. “If he knew that somebody committed a violation and is trying to stop the investigation, that makes it much harder to prove that it wasn’t corrupt.”
Story.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:14 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Pleading to a weak process crime doesn’t say much for Muellers case.
Or it speaks to what Flynn has to offer, as does Flynn’s acceptance of the deal. We shall see.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:23 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
From that article:
[/quote]Trump has denied that he asked Comey to drop the investigation. But his chief lawyer, John Dowd, suggested Monday it wouldn’t even matter if he had – because a president cannot obstruct justice by telling the FBI how he hopes a criminal investigation will be resolved.[/quote]
IOW, if the president does it, it's not illegal.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:48 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
IOW, if the president does it, it's not illegal.
“Law and order” is for the common people*, not for the aristocracy.





* blacks and Mexicans
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:33 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm not familiar with that website, but that does seems like a reasonable argument presented.
Seemingly unknown to Kislyak and Flynn US the FBI was recording the call.

On what planet is that "reasonable" ?
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:34 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Seemingly unknown to Kislyak and Flynn US the FBI was recording the call.

On what planet is that "reasonable" ?
With an appropriate warrant, why would that be unreasonable?
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:35 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
With an appropriate warrant, why would that be unreasonable?
Sorry I was unclear ... the "Seemingly unknown" part I find to be unreasonable.
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:46 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
How could he fight them? There's no doubt he lied about these things. But there could be a reason for Mueller to get this off the table without much more attention to how the lying came about. If you have some time, here's a detailed argument along those lines. We'll see what happens but I'm pretty sure it will turn out that your opinion is based on flawed information.
Odd that you should ask, "How could he fight them?" in the same post where you link to someone suggesting he should fight them by claiming entrapment. There is another poster here who suggests that any evidence coming from Mueller's investigation can be challenged as inadmissible because the investigation itself was not legally justified. It would appear that Flynn and his lawyer agree with me that neither of those defenses would likely succeed.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:03 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm not familiar with that website, but that does seems like a reasonable argument presented.
Really? The article claims that if Mueller didn't charge Flynn for a Logan Act violation, then it's "conclusively established that there was nothing unlawful about Flynn’s conversations with Kislyak." That's not what I call a "reasonable argument" since Mueller also didn't charge Flynn with being an unregistered foreign agent or for lying on his security form or for conspiring to commit kidnapping. Does that "conclusively establish" that he didn't commit those crimes, or does it imply that he has a really good story to tell in exchange for dropping those charges? (Yes, I'm asking you a question that I already know the answer to, which according to another "reasonable argument" in that article is entrapment.)
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Old 5th December 2017, 10:56 AM   #317
plague311
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Takes money to do that, why fight it when you’re presented with an easy out.
Spoken by someone who has never been convicted of a felony.

Let me tell you from personal experience, it's a constant form of concern for every application, resume, or attempt at doing anything you want. Having a felony is used as fodder if trying to run for anything public, or being in the public at all.

It's a public record and once you plead guilty it's next to impossible to get taken off of your record. There is nothing easy about having a felony, no matter what.
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Old 5th December 2017, 12:03 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Spoken by someone who has never been convicted of a felony.

Let me tell you from personal experience, it's a constant form of concern for every application, resume, or attempt at doing anything you want. Having a felony is used as fodder if trying to run for anything public, or being in the public at all.

It's a public record and once you plead guilty it's next to impossible to get taken off of your record. There is nothing easy about having a felony, no matter what.
You’re not understanding. Flynn has said this is ruining and bankrupting his family. He’s literally forced into this which is what this process is designed to do. You’ve obviously never gone up against people who have an unlimited amount of resources.
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Old 5th December 2017, 12:56 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Seemingly unknown to Kislyak and Flynn US the FBI was recording the call.

On what planet is that "reasonable" ?
We shouldn't spy on the Russian ambassador when there is an investigation of Russian interference in our election and hacking a major party's emails?

OK never mind, I see your correction.

Pretty much the fact this stuff happened makes it reasonable it could happen doesn't it? These guys all seem to be blatant blunderers. Perhaps they just felt invulnerable.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 5th December 2017 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:58 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Perhaps they just felt invulnerable.
I think this is exactly the case. They felt that they own the government so they could do anything and get away with it. Trump is still enjoying this fiction because the Republicans are letting him get away with it.
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