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Old 5th December 2017, 03:48 PM   #81
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yes, why care about the matter at hand when we can go into high dudgeon in a semantic meta-discussion? Good going.
Fantastic demonstration of a strawman, there. Nice job. And good on you to confirm what others have said already: this discussion isn't about skepticism or reason, but about simple outrage. You can share in the outrage or be branded a wrong-thinker.

As I said, and you ignored, a simple correction isn't a semantic meta-discussion. It's a correction. If it goes into a discussion then it's because the person who made the mistake doesn't accept being corrected and would rather go into that discussion than just accept the facts and move on with the original discussion. So in fact it's the person who gets corrected who takes the opportunity to distract from the conversation through sheer pride.

The distinction between child molestation and pedophilia is both important and substantial.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:04 PM   #82
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When the Republicans said that acceptance of homosexuality would lead to acceptance of pedophilia, we all thought they were making a fallacious slippery slope kind of argument.

Who knew it would turn out that they were foreshadowing their game plan?
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:09 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
More importantly, post puberty a person is equipped with strong doses of sex hormones, like adults, and experience sexual attraction and arousal - at least they understand what a sexual advance is. Big difference to a child: a post-pubescent teenager can WANT to date, kiss, have sex because they are sexual beings.
I wanted to hold hands; therefore I consented to sex. I didn't really want to have sex; I just accepted the trade-off.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:10 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The distinction between child molestation and pedophilia is both important and substantial.
Is this what you meant to say?

ETA: This thread started out being about the GOP endorsement, and I'm not sure any Republicans have used the "not pedophilia" defense. I would love to see them try, don't think it would go over very well.

ETA2: I don't mean any Republicans on the board but leadership at the committee level. Fun fact, I am actually a registered Republican.

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Old 5th December 2017, 04:21 PM   #85
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People keep saying she was "only" fourteen. Funny how they don't mention she was wearing a LOT of make-up.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:28 PM   #86
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Old 5th December 2017, 05:29 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I wasn’t referring to Lewinski. I was referring to allegations of rape and sexual harassment.
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Juanita Broaddrick

This was daylighted during the Paula Jones legal proceedings.

I liked Bill Clinton, I think he was an effective president. But by current standards he would be un-electable.
Right. But I'm saying Clinton was already president when this all came out. It's not like people ignored it and elected him again after the fact. Granted he didn't run for anything after that but even if he had I don't think he would have won.

It was known prior to the 2016 election and Trump won anyway and I think it's going to happen again a week from now with Moore.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:08 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Maybe this year, but we had a president elected last year despite being on record as bragging about his sexual assaults and improprieties.
Bragging about them? Or lying about them? We know Trump is a liar, never more so than when he's boasting.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:15 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I agree, and was hesitant to post. It was not clear to me if The_Animus was aware of those allegations.

I do think Clinton would be un-electable in the current political and cultural climate - because he is a Democrat. The Dems are actually showing some spine and consistency in the current situation. Conyers is out, Franken has apologized. Poor behavior by dems has been met with actual reckoning, while poor behavior by Republicans has been met by denials and obfuscation, as we see with Moore and Trump.
Heh. After decades of being demonized by the Left as the worst kind of monsters, the right has finally decided that they no longer give a ****. And so the left, having successfully divided the nation into "us" and "them", have now discovered that "they" are immune to the left's moralizing.

The left, unable to effectively strike at targets on the right, have no choice but to eat their own. It didn't used to be this way. Bill Clinton would be burned at the stake now, for no other reason than the witch hunters can't get to Trump.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:19 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yes, why care about the matter at hand when we can go into high dudgeon in a semantic meta-discussion? Good going.
Misrepresenting the matter at hand is hardly the moral high ground here.

If you think Moore is a pedophile, then make your case. If not, then say what you mean.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:30 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heh. After decades of being demonized by the Left as the worst kind of monsters, the right has finally decided that they no longer give a ****. And so the left, having successfully divided the nation into "us" and "them", have now discovered that "they" are immune to the left's moralizing.

The left, unable to effectively strike at targets on the right, have no choice but to eat their own. It didn't used to be this way. Bill Clinton would be burned at the stake now, for no other reason than the witch hunters can't get to Trump.
Pure assertion. The "left" - or to be more accurate, the "Democrats" - have been feasting on each others' still-beating hearts for decades, all of them within my living recollection and a few before that, if you count the Roosevelt years.

The right is immune to the left's moralizing because the right has proved to be amoral and would elect a tin of Campbell's Pork 'N Beans as long as it wasn't a Democrat. The President and the RNC are political sluts.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:31 PM   #92
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Cool story, bro.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:46 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Cool story, bro.
Well, thank you. You may return to deflecting attention from the reprehensible scum who run the party.
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:15 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Pure assertion. The "left" - or to be more accurate, the "Democrats" - have been feasting on each others' still-beating hearts for decades, all of them within my living recollection and a few before that, if you count the Roosevelt years.

The right is immune to the left's moralizing because the right has proved to be amoral and would elect a tin of Campbell's Pork 'N Beans as long as it wasn't a Democrat. The President and the RNC are political sluts.
Meh, both sides have been disgraceful. Massachusetts kept electing Ted Kennedy. Alabama will probably elect Moore.


(Note: this is not condoning Alabama, I wish they'd take the high road and go for anyone but him...)
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:25 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you object to people calling abortion murdering babies?
Do you understand the different between syntax and semantics?
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:59 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heh. After decades of being demonized by the Left as the worst kind of monsters, the right has finally decided that they no longer give a ****. And so the left, having successfully divided the nation into "us" and "them", have now discovered that "they" are immune to the left's moralizing.

The left, unable to effectively strike at targets on the right, have no choice but to eat their own. It didn't used to be this way. Bill Clinton would be burned at the stake now, for no other reason than the witch hunters can't get to Trump.
Once again, we see that it is always the left's fault. Always.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:21 PM   #97
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:58 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The left, unable to effectively strike at targets on the right, have no choice but to eat their own. It didn't used to be this way. Bill Clinton would be burned at the stake now, for no other reason than the witch hunters can't get to Trump.
....despite the numbers of women accusing Trump of misconduct.

If eating their own is the solution to sexual misconduct, then the left is doing the right thing. Defending misconduct because denial and obfuscation serves to benefit one's preferred party is wrong.
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Old 5th December 2017, 10:18 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Dictionary nitpick is not defense, though I can see how it reads that way.

Say Bob murders Charles Smith. Then someone goes “Bob is scum! He murdered John Smith!” It’s not a defense of Bob to say “no he didn’t. The guy who’s dead is named Charles Smith.” Bob can still be scum. The “no he didn’t” part is given priority by the language parsey bits so it sounds like defense when it’s meant as tech correction.
The fact this needs to be explained on a so-called skeptics site is disturbing. Accepting less than the correct answer shows bias in this case.
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Old 5th December 2017, 10:24 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bragging about them? Or lying about them? We know Trump is a liar, never more so than when he's boasting.
More likely... He was correctly describing his actions (ie "grab em") but lying about how successful he was (ie "they will let you do it")

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Old 5th December 2017, 10:52 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
People keep saying she was "only" fourteen. Funny how they don't mention she was wearing a LOT of make-up.

And the way she was dressed! Like a little school girl!
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Old 6th December 2017, 12:58 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Vote for Roy!
Apart from the long word which would go right over the head of many (most ?) people, the thing is that a substantial proportion of Alabama (and who knows maybe US) GOP supporters really don't have a problem at all with a man in his 30s dating, and sexually assaulting a 14-year old (if she's old enough to feed and breed.......). There's also a sizeable number who are not entirely comfortable with that but who are so thrilled about his positive attributes like being a racist and a Christian dominionist so they're willing to look past minor foibles like child molestation.

Between them they make up the vast majority of GOP voters and supporters and sadly it seems, the majority of the electorate in Alabama.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:17 AM   #103
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I like this thread. It has unmasked several of the "thinking" conservatives as rabid partisans willing to have a child molester elected to Senate simply because he's a Republican. Kinda removes any moral high ground they want to claim in future discussions.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:28 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And so the left, having successfully divided the nation into "us" and "them", have now discovered that "they" are immune to the left's moralizing.
I've never understood this claim of Democrats being the great divider. Are they the only ones who demonized the opposite party? When do you think that happened? I know it sounds off-topic, but there is a connection, in how critical party-line votes have become, thus the perceived need to have another solid R in the Senate.

If it's too off-topic here maybe I'll start a thread.

And it has certainly not only Dems who were criticizing Moore. Some Republicans were quite adamant about it. No "us and them" there, when McConnell is calling for your removal from the Senate even if you get elected. Romney is still 100 percent against Moore. And IMO the RNC is stepping in only because it is worried about the tax bill.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:45 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Apart from the long word which would go right over the head of many (most ?) people, the thing is that a substantial proportion of Alabama (and who knows maybe US) GOP supporters really don't have a problem at all with a man in his 30s dating, and sexually assaulting a 14-year old (if she's old enough to feed and breed.......). There's also a sizeable number who are not entirely comfortable with that but who are so thrilled about his positive attributes like being a racist and a Christian dominionist so they're willing to look past minor foibles like child molestation.

Between them they make up the vast majority of GOP voters and supporters and sadly it seems, the majority of the electorate in Alabama.
She was old enough to marry in Alabama. As a lawyer I'm sure he could have got the court to agree, and assuming the parents agreed as a 14 year old her consent would not have been needed, the 'good'ol boys' could have just sorted out between them.

The US also needs to address child marriage.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:55 AM   #106
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All the women accusing Moore happen to be Republicans. But it's the Democrats' fault........
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:04 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The US also needs to address child marriage.
I comment that someone made here a few years ago (though IIRC it was in the context of US wealth and income inequality) which has stuck in my mind is that the United States is a developing nation with a first world economy. Child marriage is IMO another example of that.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:32 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I wanted to hold hands; therefore I consented to sex. I didn't really want to have sex; I just accepted the trade-off.
Strawman. It's a fallacy.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:16 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Strawman. It's a fallacy.
Not a strawman. Maybe a false dilemma, but I didn't see that at the time. I wasn't really arguing against your post, as you made it quite clear you consider Moore a creep, but not all teenagers who want to be sexual are ready to be sexual. It's the grown man who's supposed to know better. Shouldn't be up to the 14-year-old, or even the 16-year-old, to stop him from going too far.

I responded as I did because it is an aspect of teen sexuality you might have overlooked. Culture may make a difference. Maybe there is less of a shame factor in Sweden, maybe the power differential isn't as pronounced. Maybe Swedish women have fewer abandonment issues, have higher self-esteem, are less susceptible to exploitation, etc. I don't reject your view; I just think that U.S. culture may make these liaisons more fraught than they are in Scandinavia.

My 15-year-old friend said she thought she'd had sex with Dennis Hopper. She knew there had been a sexual act, but wasn't sure the guy was really Dennis Hopper. She said how nice he was, telling her what to do and everything. I knew another 15-year-old (maybe a year older) who thought a boy must love her because when other guys were lining up to **** her, he didn't want his turn to end. I don't mean to disrespect your opinion but much of what I've seen regarding teenagers and older men did involve some degree of exploitation ... even if the ephebe (or whatever) was a willing participant.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:26 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
I never really completely understood the "but but but it's not technically pedophilia because X age is the cutoff". I mean, why would you even remotely want to be defending something like this even if it is technically correct.

OK so one is just pretty ****** evil, and the other is worse, it's extremely ******* sick and evil.

Yeah, we're so sorry that we accused your guy that is just pretty evil with being extremely evil! So sorry.


The problem is when people use, inaccurately, the name of a medical term to describe a crime. It really, really does help if we're all using the same words for the same things.

Pedophilia is a medical condition. Child molestation (or some other legal term I'm not sure of) is the name of the crime.

The 'Oh, it doesn't matter if we use the right words' cry along with a good dose of pitchfork waving is only gong to end up with pediatricians being lynched.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:31 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Frankly the who 'not a pedophile but an ehebophile' card comes with its own rank stench as well...

Well, no - some people like to use the right words, not the wrong words, when having a conversation.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:34 AM   #112
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Just looked up Loretta Lynn and per Rolling Stone it turns out she was almost 16, not 13, when she married. Apparently she'd been lying about her age for years. So no crime as marriageable age was 15 in Kentucky.

Thread drift, sorry.

Could Romney's opinion be considered a reaction to the Mormon mainstream's need to shake off the excesses of the early church? I'm still not sure why McConnell was so adamant in his views. He could have just said the story had not been proven. Even Hannity was turned off, making me believe there is still a lot of disgust for Moore even among Republicans. I'd like to know the reason why. Because it's a clue that maybe high-profile GOP figures DO have standards. One voter was creeped out more by the "parental permission" claim than reports he'd gone way too far with a 14-year-old. The implication that women are chattel. They may be hearing from their wives or daughters.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:36 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
That's nice. I've encountered too many folks who sexually abuse teens or justify soliciting nude images from kids as young as 13 try to justify their actions with the cry of 'but its not pedophilia, its ehebophilia'. As if that makes it allllll better.

It doesn't make it all better. You're just adding that yourself. Nobody's trying to make it all better, some people just think communication works best when we all use the same words for things.

What you want to talk about is child molestation - that's the word you want to use.

It's perfectly possible to suffer from pedophilia and commit no crime at any point.


This seems a subject that you're emotionally involved with, is that why you're having trouble with others asking for people to use accurate language?
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We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:42 AM   #114
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Pedophilia is a medical condition. Child molestation (or some other legal term I'm not sure of) is the name of the crime.
An important point, as there are pedophiles who don't act on their urges. But the controversy in this thread is the word "pedophile" vs. ephebophile or whatever is the term for attraction for children not long past puberty.

ETA: These posts probably belong in another thread. I try to bring it back to the RNC but don't always succeed.

ETA2: This article from Politico helps

Last edited by Minoosh; 6th December 2017 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:01 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I liked Bill Clinton, I think he was an effective president. But by current standards he would be un-electable.
Donald. Trump.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:03 AM   #116
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There was a poster on the other thread who said Moore would be a huge gift to the Democrats but I just don't see it. Many Republican leaders may despise Moore but they are biting the bullet, and looking on the bright side.

Jeff Flake actually donated $100 to the Jones campaign. It's possible I suppose that there could be a backlash among Alabama voters who don't approve of Moore. Not holding my breath though.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:11 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bragging about them? Or lying about them? We know Trump is a liar, never more so than when he's boasting.
Yes it is a real he said he did something she said he did something, we will never know who we could possibly believe with such non conflicting stories out there.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:12 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Donald. Trump.
Democratic. Party.

If a candidate for the GOP had Clinton's track record then I agree, he'd get elected. OTOH these days he wouldn't make it onto the primaries list much less get into the White House if he was running for the Democratic Party.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:15 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I like this thread. It has unmasked several of the "thinking" conservatives as rabid partisans willing to have a child molester elected to Senate simply because he's a Republican. Kinda removes any moral high ground they want to claim in future discussions.
Look the official republican position is now "if she is old enough to bleed, she is old enough for me". Fits nicely with their abortion position. Soon we will reach the level of fighting against slutty 8 year olds who seduce their step fathers and want an abortion. And as she got pregnant it is not technically pedophilia clearly.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:17 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Look the official republican position is now "if she is old enough to bleed, she is old enough for me". Fits nicely with their abortion position. Soon we will reach the level of fighting against slutty 8 year olds who seduce their step fathers and want an abortion. And as she got pregnant it is not technically pedophilia clearly.
Well tbh, the fact that she has a stepfather clearly indicates that sluttishness runs in the female side of the family and so she was definitely asking for it.
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