ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Finland history

Reply
Old 6th December 2017, 03:51 AM   #1
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Finland celebrates 100 years independence today

Finland fought some 27 wars against Russia...and lost every single one of them.

But hey! Today marks 100 years of independence: after one hundred years of Imperialist Russia and 700 years of Sweden.

Quote:
On December 6th 1917, Finland proclaimed its independence for the first time. For centuries it had been controlled by its powerful neighbours, Sweden and Russia. As World War One raged across Europe and Russia was embroiled in its own revolution, Finnish intellectuals took the opportunity to push for their own state. But many ordinary people were more concerned with dire food shortages and the chaos caused by conflict. Olga Smirnova hears memories of that time.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csvty0
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 04:11 AM   #2
Belgian thought
Graduate Poster
 
Belgian thought's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,588
Bwoah - Happy anniversary
__________________
... er, that's it
Belgian thought is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 07:33 AM   #3
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,944
Yes, I wonder if we will ever see an end to the Treacherous Rebellion of Eastern Sweden
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 07:56 AM   #4
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,091
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yes, I wonder if we will ever see an end to the Treacherous Rebellion of Eastern Sweden
About the same time the North Britons accept reality....
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 08:16 AM   #5
ahhell
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 657
Sure, Finland is 100 year old

Everybody knows it doesn't exist.
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/fi...dont-think-so/

Also, Steam has a sail on Finn produced games.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 09:24 AM   #6
Fitter
Illuminator
 
Fitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,059
Is it true all male Finns are named Dorsal and all females Ventral?
Fitter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 03:29 PM   #7
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yes, I wonder if we will ever see an end to the Treacherous Rebellion of Eastern Sweden

Finland validated the famous Swedish 'gayness', did it not, when it gave you Tom of Finland?
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 04:05 AM   #8
JJM 777
Illuminator
 
JJM 777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,016
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland fought some 27 wars against Russia...and lost every single one of them.
I think being conquered counts as "losing a war". Being able to negotiate a truce that keeps the other army out counts as a tie, more or less. OK maybe a loss with referee points, but not a knockout.
JJM 777 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 04:17 AM   #9
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 25,286
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
I think being conquered counts as "losing a war". Being able to negotiate a truce that keeps the other army out counts as a tie, more or less. OK maybe a loss with referee points, but not a knockout.
I'd say that losing territory probably counts as losing a war. Then again, only losing a bit of territory to the USSR reminds me of Jasper Carrott's comment about a Birmingham City - Manchester United match; "Birmingham won, two-all."

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 01:00 PM   #10
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,944
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
I think being conquered counts as "losing a war". Being able to negotiate a truce that keeps the other army out counts as a tie, more or less. OK maybe a loss with referee points, but not a knockout.
Not if the truce involves ceding more land than they originally demanded...
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 02:34 PM   #11
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,647
I will play a couple of scenarios from this game in celebration:

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Product...winterwar.html

The graphics are dated, but still a very good tactical level game. Finnish Ski Commandos rule!
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 04:14 PM   #12
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Not if the truce involves ceding more land than they originally demanded...
Finland may have had 700 years Swedish rule and 100 years czarist Russia, but for 52K years before that, Finland looked like this:

(Note far West Finland across the water.)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg finland map.jpg (44.3 KB, 9 views)
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 04:28 PM   #13
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
I think being conquered counts as "losing a war". Being able to negotiate a truce that keeps the other army out counts as a tie, more or less. OK maybe a loss with referee points, but not a knockout.
JJM777 You are right.

All of the men in my immediate family who were of conscription age 1939 - 1944 fought for their country. Two of my uncles died on the Karelian front. The others were war veterans (including my grandfather) who were considered heroes and given 'feedom of the city'. This meant they could park wherever they liked. (It's the small things that count for a lot.)

My grandfather was a 'jääkäri' in his youth (Jaegar). It was the amazingly clever tactic and military strategy by Mannerheim (sending young lads off to Juncker military schools in Prussia) that enabled Finland to overthrow the Russian might and which brought about independence in 1917. The conservative-coalition government were terrified of the Russians and wanted only to appease them. Mannerheim, sent men for covert training under cover. This audacious act outside the authority of the government of the day was a remarkable success.

I am deeply proud of them all. My grandmother lost her eldest two sons at the peak of their youth. I cannot imagine how a mother can get through such a loss.

The achievement, despite the heartbreaking losses in Karelia, is wonderful. Being a Finn today is like winning the lottery. There is no 'pomp and circumstance' (which I love about England) but hey, there is endless nature and endless summer nights.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 04:31 PM   #14
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I will play a couple of scenarios from this game in celebration:

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Product...winterwar.html

The graphics are dated, but still a very good tactical level game. Finnish Ski Commandos rule!
There's also Angry Birds.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 04:35 PM   #15
Cleon
King of the Pod People
 
Cleon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,148
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland may have had 700 years Swedish rule and 100 years czarist Russia, but for 52K years before that, Finland looked like this:

(Note far West Finland across the water.)
Don't get me wrong, I like Finland. The country plays a disproportionally large role in my musical habits. I visited Helsinki this summer, it was lovely.

But 52,000 years? Call me skeptical.
__________________
"People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich
Cleon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 11:55 PM   #16
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,944
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Don't get me wrong, I like Finland. The country plays a disproportionally large role in my musical habits. I visited Helsinki this summer, it was lovely.

But 52,000 years? Call me skeptical.
This is presumanly similar to the Korean Hwan Empire of 7200 BCE.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ??.jpg (82.1 KB, 6 views)
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2017, 12:01 AM   #17
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,944
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was the amazingly clever tactic and military strategy by Mannerheim (sending young lads off to Juncker military schools in Prussia) that enabled Finland to overthrow the Russian might and which brought about independence in 1917
Ah yes, the national hero of Finland: a Swedish nobleman.
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2017, 12:29 AM   #18
JJM 777
Illuminator
 
JJM 777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,016
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The achievement, despite the heartbreaking losses in Karelia, is wonderful. Being a Finn today is like winning the lottery.
Some people in the bread queues of eastern Helsinki may not fully agree.

While there is obviously a big difference between independence for 100 years, and the Estonian-Latvian-Lithuanian version of the same period, I am not a nationalist, I don't consider nations as meaningful collective units, because there is so much political disagreement within any nation. Political ideologies are the units that I am interested in. Autonomy or independence of political parties would be something remarkable. The freedom to run the society as they please. That is something that the war heroes of Finland never won. They won territory, but an endless political dispute followed how to live within that territory. Ask any supporter of other than the governmental parties.

Last edited by JJM 777; 8th December 2017 at 12:31 AM.
JJM 777 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2017, 06:13 PM   #19
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Ah yes, the national hero of Finland: a Swedish nobleman.
His mother Hedvig Charlotta Hélène Johan Jacobsdotter von Julin was Finnish.

The Mannerheim family came to Finland, then an integral part of Sweden, in the latter part of the 18th century.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2017, 06:17 PM   #20
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Some people in the bread queues of eastern Helsinki may not fully agree.

While there is obviously a big difference between independence for 100 years, and the Estonian-Latvian-Lithuanian version of the same period, I am not a nationalist, I don't consider nations as meaningful collective units, because there is so much political disagreement within any nation. Political ideologies are the units that I am interested in. Autonomy or independence of political parties would be something remarkable. The freedom to run the society as they please. That is something that the war heroes of Finland never won. They won territory, but an endless political dispute followed how to live within that territory. Ask any supporter of other than the governmental parties.
What dispute was that? They had a ferocious and bloody civil war in 1918.

They have complete autonomy. Helsinki, London and Moscow were about the only capital cities in Europe that was never occupied in WWII.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 12:52 AM   #21
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 23,168
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland may have had 700 years Swedish rule and 100 years czarist Russia, but for 52K years before that, Finland looked like this:

(Note far West Finland across the water.)
Weren't there several ice ages during that period during which time Finland was completely covered by an ice sheet ?
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 01:22 AM   #22
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,455
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
I think being conquered counts as "losing a war". Being able to negotiate a truce that keeps the other army out counts as a tie, more or less. OK maybe a loss with referee points, but not a knockout.
Not a knockout indeed. They were still there as a state at war's end. But they did capitulate, and they were obliged to cede their most celebrated province, their second largest city, their Border defence lines and their access to the Arctic sea. That's not a tie.

However their resistance was worthwhile, and undoubtedly saved them from the complete assimilation that Stalin evidently had in mind for them.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 03:30 AM   #23
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 14,940
I hope they all got naked and beat each other with birch branches in the sauna to celebrate. I'll be disappointed if they didn't.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 04:10 AM   #24
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,724
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What dispute was that? They had a ferocious and bloody civil war in 1918.
That has shaped politics for a long time after, with a deep divide between left and right.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They have complete autonomy. Helsinki, London and Moscow were about the only capital cities in Europe that was never occupied in WWII.
Really?

For starters, Stockholm, the capital of your next-door neighbour. A quick count gives me at least seven others.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 04:17 AM   #25
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,724
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland may have had 700 years Swedish rule and 100 years czarist Russia, but for 52K years before that, Finland looked like this:

(Note far West Finland across the water.)
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Weren't there several ice ages during that period during which time Finland was completely covered by an ice sheet ?


There's also the slight problem that Finnish is an Uralic language and so you cannot speak of "Finland" until Finnish speaking people arrive there:
Quote:
. On the basis of comparative linguistics, it has been suggested that the separation of the Finnic and the Sami languages took place during the 2nd millennium BC, and that the Proto-Uralic roots of the entire language group date from about the 6th to the 8th millennium BC. When the Uralic languages were first spoken in the area of contemporary Finland is debated.[citation needed] It is thought that Proto-Finnic (the proto-language of the Finnic languages) was not spoken in modern Finland, because the maximum divergence of the daughter languages occurs in modern-day Estonia. Therefore, Finnish was already a separate language when arriving in Finland.
Which thus would have been on the order of thousands, not tens of thousands, years ago.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

Last edited by ddt; 9th December 2017 at 04:19 AM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 04:17 AM   #26
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,417
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Being a Finn today is like winning the lottery. There is no 'pomp and circumstance' (which I love about England) but hey, there is endless nature and endless summer nights.
And bleak frigid winters of perpetual darkness.
Not to mention, some witch is always trying to steal your Sampo.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:00 AM   #27
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Not a knockout indeed. They were still there as a state at war's end. But they did capitulate, and they were obliged to cede their most celebrated province, their second largest city, their Border defence lines and their access to the Arctic sea. That's not a tie.

However their resistance was worthwhile, and undoubtedly saved them from the complete assimilation that Stalin evidently had in mind for them.
It moved its capital to Helsinki, but the former capital Turku, still exists and remains a part of Finland. Finland has sovereignty over the Gulf of Finland, far more important strategically than the Arctic sea.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:02 AM   #28
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I hope they all got naked and beat each other with birch branches in the sauna to celebrate. I'll be disappointed if they didn't.
All Finns do this at least once a week if not more.

All purpose built blocks of apartments come with a private sauna (albeit electric [Swedish-style]).
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:03 AM   #29
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That has shaped politics for a long time after, with a deep divide between left and right.


Really?

For starters, Stockholm, the capital of your next-door neighbour. A quick count gives me at least seven others.
'Who took part in WWII'.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:05 AM   #30
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by ddt View Post


There's also the slight problem that Finnish is an Uralic language and so you cannot speak of "Finland" until Finnish speaking people arrive there:

Which thus would have been on the order of thousands, not tens of thousands, years ago.
You have fallen into the common trap of assuming language is the same as ethnicity.

They are quite separate, although linked because of geography.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:07 AM   #31
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
And bleak frigid winters of perpetual darkness.
Not to mention, some witch is always trying to steal your Sampo.
I was there recently in January. The snow was wonderful and the landscape breathtaking, not the horrible slippery slush we get in the UK which fills me with dread as I worry about how long it'll take me to get into work.

Winter sports - cross-country ski-ing, snowboarding, sledding - are incredibly popular and many Finns really look forward to snow.

Hey, don't you look at my Sampo, or I'll cast a spell and sink you in the swamp with the witch of Pohja.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland

Last edited by Vixen; 9th December 2017 at 06:13 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:11 AM   #32
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,944
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They have complete autonomy. Helsinki, London and Moscow were about the only capital cities in Europe that was never occupied in WWII.
It's pretty easy to avoid being occupied in WWII when you first have Hitler over for your birthday party and casual chats about the barbarian hordes of the USSR, and then give the Russians everything they want when the tide turns
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy

Last edited by TubbaBlubba; 9th December 2017 at 06:13 AM.
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:16 AM   #33
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
It's pretty easy to avoid being occupied in WWII when you first have Hitler over for your birthday party and casual chats about the barbarian hordes of the USSR, and then give the Russians everything they want when the tide turns
What did Sweden do? Nothing. I have newspaper clippings from the British Library newspaper archives which reveal Sweden was a popular place of refuge for escaping Nazis.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:21 AM   #34
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,944
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
... the complete assimilation that Stalin evidently had in mind for them.
I actually wonder about that. The strategic advantage is unclear at best, and it would have completely alienated Sweden, which with its neutrality had some diplomatic importance. Finland is also, like Sweden, a real mess to occupy due to its large area and relatively harsh terrain.
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:30 AM   #35
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,944
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What did Sweden do? Nothing. I have newspaper clippings from the British Library newspaper archives which reveal Sweden was a popular place of refuge for escaping Nazis.
As the only neutral country in Northern Europe, we accepted 120 000 refugees. We (well, Arne Beurling) cracked the SHT52, the most complex Nazi encryption system, allowing us to intercept half a million messages over three years, including ones about Operation Barbarossa (Stalin didn't listen). Immediately following the agreements with Nazi Germany w.r.t. assisting Finland and supplying the Norwegian occupation, conscription and preparations were massively ramped up until in 1943 we could tell them to buzz off. We sold steel, true, but also filled the mines with explosives in case the Nazis had any funny ideas.

It was an act of balance, but generally Sweden's position as a very difficult to invade neutral territory (in fact, the great Mannerheim himself told Hitler that trying to occupy Sweden was a terrible idea) with some concessions to the Germans allowed us to assist far more people than would have been helped if we had entered militarily. But yeah, I guess that's about the same thing as joining the Axis
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy

Last edited by TubbaBlubba; 9th December 2017 at 06:33 AM.
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 06:51 AM   #36
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,455
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It moved its capital to Helsinki, but the former capital Turku, still exists and remains a part of Finland. Finland has sovereignty over the Gulf of Finland, far more important strategically than the Arctic sea.
Agreed. However, Finland was compelled to pay a high price for the Winter War.

I stress again, I'm not arguing that the resistance to the USSR was not worthwhile. Stalin was evidently preparing to annex Finland, and attach it to the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic.

Finland's resolute self defence made that impractical (or inadvisable), and in 1956 that SSR was demoted to the lesser status of an "autonomous Republic" within the Russian Republic, indicating abandonment of any annexation plan.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 07:26 AM   #37
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Weren't there several ice ages during that period during which time Finland was completely covered by an ice sheet ?
That's true, but archeological geneticists believe populations going back circa 50K years continued to return. They retreated to Southern Europe and then moved back, in search of game (as Hunter-Gatherers).

With the discovery Homo sapiens do indeed have Homo neanderthalsis genes, it leads to the question: were the latter always Eurasian, as the gene is not found in African populations, but is especially strong in SE Asia (up to 4%) and next in Europe (ditto, but slightly less).

From an excerpt:

Quote:
Modern Europeans hail from three separate populations that interbred

Until now, the only genetic traces of these people came from two Stone-Age hunter-gatherers: an 8000-year-old man found near Loschbour in Luxembourg and a 7000-year-old man found near La Brana, Spain. Together, they revealed that early European hunter-gatherers tended to have dark skin and blue eyes.

The Kostenki man’s 37,000-year-old DNA, sequenced by the Centre for GeoGenetics at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark, pushes the existence of this population back tens of thousands of years and shows that it extended across Eurasia (Science, doi.org/w2v).

Eske Willerslev and colleagues analysed his genetic markers and found that he was closely related to the Loschbour and La Brana hunter-gatherers, contemporary Europeans and some contemporary Siberians. “This shows some level of continuity in European populations across almost 30,000 years,” says Iosif Lazaridis at Harvard University, another proponent of the theory that Europeans are a mix of three distinct populations.

What the Kostenki team did not find was any relationship to East Asians, suggesting that by the time the man was born, the European and Asian lineages had already split from each other. By contrast, another ancient genome published just a few weeks ago, belonging to a 45,000-year-old west Siberian known as Ust’-Ishim, was related to both Europeans and Asians. That suggests the two groups parted ways between 45,000 and 37,000 years ago and makes theKostenki man the oldest European to have his genome sequenced.

The latest study also further narrows when early humans interbred with their now-extinct cousins, the Neanderthals. The recent study of Ust’-Ishim narrowed these encounters down to sometime between 50,000 and 60,000 years ago (New Scientist, 25 October, p 7). Calculations based on the Kostenki man’s genome now suggests they took place about 54,000 years ago.
This article appeared in print under the headline “The ancestry clues in the oldest European genome”:

Quote:
12 November 2014
Oldest European genome illuminates diverse ancestry
By Catherine Brahic

EUROPEANS are a mixed bunch – a hybrid of ancient hunter-gatherers and early farmers with elements of Native American thrown in. How did this strange genetic cocktail come to be? The DNA from the fossilised bones of a 37,000-year-old man found in southern Russia – the oldest European genome sequenced so far – provides new clues for teams trying to crack this mystery.

According to the leading proposal, modern Europeans hail from three separate populations that migrated into the continent at different times and then interbred (see map). If this theory proves correct, the so-called Kostenki man belonged to the very earliest of these populations – a group of hunter-gatherers who left what is now the Middle East perhaps as early as 40,000 years ago.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 07:36 AM   #38
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kalevala
Posts: 11,413
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
As the only neutral country in Northern Europe, we accepted 120 000 refugees. We (well, Arne Beurling) cracked the SHT52, the most complex Nazi encryption system, allowing us to intercept half a million messages over three years, including ones about Operation Barbarossa (Stalin didn't listen). Immediately following the agreements with Nazi Germany w.r.t. assisting Finland and supplying the Norwegian occupation, conscription and preparations were massively ramped up until in 1943 we could tell them to buzz off. We sold steel, true, but also filled the mines with explosives in case the Nazis had any funny ideas.

It was an act of balance, but generally Sweden's position as a very difficult to invade neutral territory (in fact, the great Mannerheim himself told Hitler that trying to occupy Sweden was a terrible idea) with some concessions to the Germans allowed us to assist far more people than would have been helped if we had entered militarily. But yeah, I guess that's about the same thing as joining the Axis

Finland was never part of the Axis, but yeah, they 'owed' Germany for the Jaakari (Jaegar) military training that saw off the Bolsheviks in 1917, so it was very hush-hush. Finns were shocked when a bunch of German troops suddenly turned up at Finnish ports in order to approach Leningrad from that direction. These are the decisions of the Generals (in this case, Mannerheim, whom you should remember was a member of the Russian czarist Imperial Army ['the Whites'] so of course, he was vehemently anti-'Red'].

The Finns wanted back Karelia and they never crossed the old Mannerheim line. They had their own army and never collaborated with the Germans, apart from one battalion, together with another 'Nordic' panzer battalion made up of an assortment of Norwegians, Estonians [who feared and loathed the Russians], Swedes and a sundry motley crew of fascist mercenaries from all over Europe].

No Finn with any self-respect EVER. saluted a German officer.

ETA: You do know, most of the Nazi war criminals who fled to South America, did so via Sweden?

Being 'neutral' when war crimes are going on is not good.
__________________
Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä
100 years Suomi
Happy Independence Day, Finland

Last edited by Vixen; 9th December 2017 at 07:38 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 07:54 AM   #39
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,944
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Being 'neutral' when war crimes are going on is not good.
Better to join the war criminals.

Then we have quaint details like the Einsatzkommando Finland, of course, participating in the "anti-Partisan" (Jew-killing) operations of Nazi Germany in the northern USSR, and "selecting" people to be "handed over" to the Germans for "special treatment" (or whatever euphemism they used). But you're right, the finnish officers in EK Finland were just proud patriots, not at all collaborators with the Germans
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy

Last edited by TubbaBlubba; 9th December 2017 at 07:57 AM.
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2017, 08:11 AM   #40
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,724
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
As the only neutral country in Northern Europe, we accepted 120 000 refugees.
Amongst which Willy Brandt.

And provided extensive humanitarian aid abroad.

Dutch famine 1944-1945:
Quote:
As many as 22,000 may have died because of the famine [...] The famine was alleviated by the liberation of the area by the Allies in May 1945. Prior to that, bread baked from flour shipped in from Sweden,
Raoul Wallenberg:
Quote:
Raoul Gustaf Wallenberg (born 4 August 1912, death date unknown)[note 1] was a Swedish architect, businessman, diplomat and humanitarian. He is widely celebrated for saving tens of thousands[1] of Jews in Nazi-occupied Hungary during the Holocaust from German Nazis and Hungarian Fascists during the later stages of World War II. While serving as Sweden's special envoy in Budapest between July and December 1944, Wallenberg issued protective passports and sheltered Jews in buildings designated as Swedish territory.[1]
White Buses:
Quote:
"White Buses" was an operation undertaken by the Swedish Red Cross and the Danish government in the spring of 1945 to rescue concentration camp inmates in areas under Nazi control and transport them to Sweden, a neutral country. Although the operation was initially targeted at saving citizens of Scandinavian countries, it rapidly expanded to include citizens of other countries.

All told, an operational staff of about 300 persons removed 15,345 prisoners from mortal peril in concentration camps; of these 7,795 were Scandinavian and 7,550 were non-Scandinavian (Polish, French, etc.)
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:06 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.