ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

Closed Thread
Old 10th January 2018, 05:37 PM   #961
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
TJMK has started their "anti-Amanda" campaign to Roanoke College regarding her speaking there in order to "let them know it’s unacceptable for a college to treat a convicted criminal as some kind of celebrity". Their whining has never stopped any of her other appearances before so why they think it will be successful now is curious. I guess hate springs eternal at TJMK.

PQ admitted their past campaigns at other colleges resulted in dead silence so he is encouraging everyone to "keep the college on our side". Why does he think Roanoke is on their side? Because they've replied to some of their emails. No, Petey...they'll be on your side if they cancel her appearance. Until then, keep living in your fantasy world.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th January 2018, 05:47 PM   #962
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I guess hate springs eternal at TJMK.
LOL. That is a keeper.

As acbytesla said, all PQ and his nutter PR campaign does is prove the point, that Amanda is subject to online harassment.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 02:36 PM   #963
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 17,940
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
TJMK has started their "anti-Amanda" campaign to Roanoke College regarding her speaking there in order to "let them know it’s unacceptable for a college to treat a convicted criminal as some kind of celebrity". Their whining has never stopped any of her other appearances before so why they think it will be successful now is curious. I guess hate springs eternal at TJMK.

PQ admitted their past campaigns at other colleges resulted in dead silence so he is encouraging everyone to "keep the college on our side". Why does he think Roanoke is on their side? Because they've replied to some of their emails. No, Petey...they'll be on your side if they cancel her appearance. Until then, keep living in your fantasy world.
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
LOL. That is a keeper.

As acbytesla said, all PQ and his nutter PR campaign does is prove the point, that Amanda is subject to online harassment.
I agree, that is a keeper. PQ and the nutters are likely to only get polite replies and nothing else.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 02:36 PM   #964
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
TJMK has started their "anti-Amanda" campaign to Roanoke College regarding her speaking there in order to "let them know it’s unacceptable for a college to treat a convicted criminal as some kind of celebrity". Their whining has never stopped any of her other appearances before so why they think it will be successful now is curious. I guess hate springs eternal at TJMK.

PQ admitted their past campaigns at other colleges resulted in dead silence so he is encouraging everyone to "keep the college on our side".
PQ assumes the silence is because the conspiracy got to whoever before he could. It never occurs to him that Nina Burleigh figured him out, and that others can too.

Pity the poor Roanoke staffer who'd replied to him out of shear manners. Next there'll be photoshops of the staffer on TJMK on the article they'll write on how initially she/he was their supporter, then became an innocence shill.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 04:48 PM   #965
Methos
Muse
 
Methos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 692
Just for the record: (the shortened short version after losing two posts )
Bilanci di fine anno 2017 - Dodici mesi di cronaca giudiziaria
Da Rudy Guede al caso Manca…
(8 gennaio, 2018)
Quote:
Viterbo – (sil.co.) – Un anno di cronaca giudiziaria e di processi. Uno dei quali non si farà: è il processo bis a Rudy Guede, detenuto a Mammagialla dove sta scontando la condanna a 16 anni in concorso per l’omicidio di Meredith Kercher, la giovane londinese uccisa a Perugia il primo novembre 2007. Era il 10 gennaio 2017 quando la corte d’appello di Firenze ha dichiarato inammissibile la richiesta.
Interesting, that despite featuring Guede at the top of their recap of the judicial year 2017, there is no mention of any appeal to Cassazione...
"Uno dei quali non si farà" seems to speak volumes...
__________________
"Found a typo? You can keep it..."

Last edited by Methos; 11th January 2018 at 04:51 PM.
Methos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 05:48 PM   #966
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,364
Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Just for the record: (the shortened short version after losing two posts )
Bilanci di fine anno 2017 - Dodici mesi di cronaca giudiziaria
Da Rudy Guede al caso Manca…
(8 gennaio, 2018)

Interesting, that despite featuring Guede at the top of their recap of the judicial year 2017, there is no mention of any appeal to Cassazione...
"Uno dei quali non si farà" seems to speak volumes...
Methos, thanks for finding this bulletin.

Here's the translation by Google (with my help):

"A year of judicial reporting and trials. One of them will not be done: it is the second trial [that is, revision trial] for Rudy Guede, detained in Mammagialla where he is serving a 16-year sentence for the murder, in concert with others, of Meredith Kercher, the young Londoner who was killed in Perugia on 1 November 2007. It was 10 January 2017 when the Court of Appeal of Florence declared the request inadmissible."

I think we shouldn't over-interpret the bulletin.

The phrase "Uno dei quali non si farà" which translates to "One of which will not be done" is, I believe, just referring to what happened - or didn't happen - in 2017. There doesn't seem to be any reference to Cassation, which may only mean that there has been no news of a Guede appeal to Cassation, if indeed there was an appeal.

I expect that the CSC would not grant Guede a revision request, if indeed he appealed.
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 06:38 PM   #967
bagels
Master Poster
 
bagels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,014
Murderer in concert Rudy Guede, making his Wiener Philharmoniker debut.

I'm surprised Italy didn't create a new law for him to be guilty of: Helping Amanda Knox commit an Amanda Knox murder by Amanda Knox during the course of an Amanda Knox crime in the first degree while being an accessory to Amanda Knox who really did the murder. Too subtle?
bagels is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 06:50 PM   #968
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,364
Originally Posted by bagels View Post
Murderer in concert Rudy Guede, making his Wiener Philharmoniker debut.

I'm surprised Italy didn't create a new law for him to be guilty of: Helping Amanda Knox commit an Amanda Knox murder by Amanda Knox during the course of an Amanda Knox crime in the first degree while being an accessory to Amanda Knox who really did the murder. Too subtle?
Here you are actually summarizing the - very strange - Borsini appeal court motivation report which reduced Rudy Guede's sentence, in part because he was the only one to apologize to the victim's family. Although Guede didn't actually apologize for murdering Meredith Kercher.

Source: https://borsinibellardi.wordpress.co...-the-decision/
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:05 PM   #969
bagels
Master Poster
 
bagels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,014
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Here you are actually summarizing the - very strange - Borsini appeal court motivation report which reduced Rudy Guede's sentence, in part because he was the only one to apologize to the victim's family. Although Guede didn't actually apologize for murdering Meredith Kercher.

Source: https://borsinibellardi.wordpress.co...-the-decision/
Life must be surreal for Rudy Guede. He breaks into a girls house, rapes her and slits her throat and watches her last moment as she chokes on and vomits up blood and then expires out of this world forever leaving him free to dig through her purse for goodies, then gets caught red handed, and...nobody really cares. Even the court allegedly convicting him of murder doesn't really see him as anything but an unimportant footnote.

This is what gave him the gall to go on national Italian TV and laugh about how charming he was with Meredith the night he butchered her - and do it to the approval and/or disinterest of everybody.
bagels is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 13th January 2018, 08:42 PM   #970
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
I wonder how Pete's campaign not to have Amanda speak at Roanoke College is going. Have they started to ignore him and his merry band of misfits yet?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 13th January 2018, 11:04 PM   #971
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I wonder how Pete's campaign not to have Amanda speak at Roanoke College is going. Have they started to ignore him and his merry band of misfits yet?
It is one thing to remain silent and be thought a nut. It's quite another to bombard them with emails and remove all doubt!
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 08:15 AM   #972
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,364
On another forum (IIP), Annella has posted a reference to an excellent summary of forensic DNA analysis from the UK Royal Society:

https://royalsociety.org/~/media/abo...for-courts.pdf

Here's an excerpt:

"2.4 Comparison of DNA profiles
2.4.1 Collection of DNA samples – avoiding contamination
Biological evidence from a crime scene needs to be collected carefully, transported
and stored properly prior to examination. Most biological evidence is best preserved
when stored dry and/or frozen. Contamination in the context of DNA analysis can be
defined as the introduction of extraneous DNA (or biological material containing DNA)
to a sample. The DNA profiling process is extremely sensitive and constant vigilance
is required to ensure that contamination does not affect the results. Because of this
sensitivity, contaminating DNA may still be observed even with careful precautions,
and will routinely be monitored in laboratories. The forensic scientist must use all the
information available to them to assess whether a contamination event, if it occurs,
has had an impact on the results in a specific case.

2.4.2 Evaluating the statistical weight of matching a single DNA profile
If there is a match between the STR profiles of two DNA samples, then there are three
possible explanations:
1. The suspect is the source of the material.
2. The material came from a second person who has an identical DNA profile to that
of the suspect.
3. The match is a false positive due to contamination or some other kind of error.

The match probability is an estimate of the likelihood (or chance) of observing the DNA
profile obtained if someone other than, and unrelated to, the suspect, was the source
of the DNA. An expanded explanation is presented in Appendix 3."

In the Knox - Sollecito case, the allegedly incriminating DNA samples on the kitchen knife and bra clasp could not be distinguished from possible contamination or even laboratory misconduct. That means that they had no evidentiary value.
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 05:38 PM   #973
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
The trial for rape of the former Deputy Commander of Capanne prison, Argiro, has been postponed yet again. This is the same man that Knox accused of sexually harassing her while in prison.

Google translation:

Quote:
Perugia, the trial of the former guard of Amanda Knox accused of sexual violence collects the third postponement


Raffaele Argirò, deputy commander of the Capanne prison, was sent to trial in 2013 for alleged rape against a police officer: no witness was heard in three years
The trial of Raffaele Argirò, former deputy commander of the prison police of the Capanne prison accused of aggravated sexual violence against an ex-Milanese guardian, has not yet begun. Yesterday, the first college of the penal court of Perugia, chaired by Gaetano Mautone, even though the investigation had not started, the hearing was postponed tout court until 23 May 2017. In the two previous - October 2014 and March 2015 - it was limited to the lists of witnesses and very little else. It is learned in the court corridors that the Tuesday hearing was postponed because one of the constituents of the college was transferred to the European Court of Justice for several months. Up to now none of the 40 or so witnesses have been heard but the closed-door hearing before the college, composed for the third time in a different way, has received another postponement.
Three years ago the indictment of the trial of the gup Lidia Brutti is dated November 29, 2013. The disputed facts date back to December 2006-January 2007, but the complaint was formalized to the late police - in October 2011 - and the Massimo Massimo Casucci has closed the investigation an exact year later. Putting the statements of the injured person safe in the probationary incident during which the woman spoke of a "slave-slave relationship" characterized by "a dozen sexual relations".
The disappointment of the civil party Tuona the civil lawyer Mario Tedesco: "Following a circular of the CSM the president of the college has cataloged this process as one of those not to be treated with priority. Yet the disputed facts are very serious. We are disappointed and bitter, we have already taken into account that everything will be prescribed - continues German - and if next May the judge Pazzaglia will not be returned will be postponed even the next hearing.

The defendant: I am innocent The limitation periods for a crime such as sexual violence are quite long but Argirò, 61 years old from Stignano (Reggio Calabria) seems willing to demonstrate his innocence in the court, eager for the trial to be celebrated within a reasonable time. "The wait makes him suffering - explain his lawyers Daniela Paccoi and Silvia Egidi -. He was waiting for a different answer from Justice but, it is evident, it is not so ».
The scandal and retirement A few weeks after the scandal of the "guard of Amanda Knox" Raffaele Argirò has accelerated the time of retirement. In his diaries the American had described the policeman as a man "fixed with sex". As reported by the English tabloid The Sun, the young Seattle woman, detained four years in Capanne and then definitively acquitted by the murder of Meredith Kercher, wrote in a memorial: "At night he summoned me to the third floor in an empty office for a chat. When I repeated to him that I knew nothing about Meredith's murder, he tried to talk to me about her or take me to the topic of sex. " In the book Waiting to be heard he added: "The warder asked me how many boys I had sex, as I liked to do, if I wanted to do it with him." These harassments are not included in the indictment because no complaint has ever been filed by Amanda, threatened only in words by the penitentiary agent of a lawsuit for defamation never advanced in the Prosecutor's Office. On the other hand, the accused responded to the accusations of the vigilant: "I have never even touched it with a finger, a man agent is not allowed to enter the female arm if not accompanied by a woman
http://www.umbria24.it/cronaca/perug...a-terzo-rinvio
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 07:12 PM   #974
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,364
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The trial for rape of the former Deputy Commander of Capanne prison, Argiro, has been postponed yet again. This is the same man that Knox accused of sexually harassing her while in prison.

Google translation:



http://www.umbria24.it/cronaca/perug...a-terzo-rinvio
I suggest that this is another example of how the Italian judicial system will take measures such as delaying the trial of a police officer or other official in order to let the statute of limitations run out.

That is essentially what was done in the case of Mignini, charged with abuse of power in the Monster of Florence spin-off cases.
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 07:36 PM   #975
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I suggest that this is another example of how the Italian judicial system will take measures such as delaying the trial of a police officer or other official in order to let the statute of limitations run out.

That is essentially what was done in the case of Mignini, charged with abuse of power in the Monster of Florence spin-off cases.
I can't say that thought hadn't crossed my mind. Let's see what happens with the trial of Napoleoni, too.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 08:26 PM   #976
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I suggest that this is another example of how the Italian judicial system will take measures such as delaying the trial of a police officer or other official in order to let the statute of limitations run out.

That is essentially what was done in the case of Mignini, charged with abuse of power in the Monster of Florence spin-off cases.
I do not believe that that is entirely true. Somewhere down the line, Mignini's abuse of office charge got to (I believe) Florence, and then it was ruled that Florence did not have the jurisdiction. THEN the statute of limitations passed.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2018, 10:53 PM   #977
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,364
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
I do not believe that that is entirely true. Somewhere down the line, Mignini's abuse of office charge got to (I believe) Florence, and then it was ruled that Florence did not have the jurisdiction. THEN the statute of limitations passed.
The trial proceeded in Florence. Mignini was convicted by the first-instance court.* Then it was found out, in the course of the appeal, by the Italian judicial authorities that there was a conflict of interest, because one or more of the Florence prosecutors had themselves been subject to investigation or accusation by Mignini (as part of the MoF spin-off). Thus, the trial needed to be moved to another jurisdiction. By the time the judicial authorities (claimed) to have discovered this conflict of interest (and shouldn't they have known this from the very beginning of the case?), and the case was transferred to Turin, the statute of limitations was nearly reached, so the case was dismissed to avoid violating the statute of limitations.**

Despite the apparent abuses of power by Mignini in the spin-off Monster of Florence cases, the Superior Council of the Judiciary decided that he had committed no violation of judicial ethics or law in that case.***

* "The Italian prosecutor who secured a 26-year murder conviction against American Amanda Knox last year was convicted Friday of abuse of office and illegal telephone tapping in an earlier murder case.

Giuliano Mignini, chief prosecutor in Knox’s trial for the 2007 killing of British student Meredith Kerchner in Perugia, was sentenced to one year and four months in prison for his role in the investigation of the “Monster of Florence” murders."

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...60L58020100122
Date of article: 22 Jan 2010

** "In November 2011, a Court of Appeals accepted his preliminary objection and annulled the previous conviction, also declaring the prosecution by Florentine magistrates illegitimate - since some of the Florence prosecutors were also the offended parties - and sent the investigation file to a prosecutor in Turin. The Prosecution General of Florence appealed against the decision at the Supreme Court, so factually blocking the transfer to Turin for at least another year. In February 2013 the Florence office lost their appeal and the Supreme Court ordered the investigation be moved to Turin. Mignini said "It took me 7 years to be right" In 2016, the court of Turin dropped the remaining charges due to statutory terms expiration."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliano_Mignini

*** "While the Italian justice system does not prosecute criminal allegations beyond statutory terms through penal courts, Italian Magistrates are still subjected to a judgement also by a disciplinary court of the High Council of the Judiciary (Consiglio Superiore della Magistratura, or CSM) which seeks to find out facts in the merits, even if the Magistrate has already been acquitted of criminal charges on technicalities, or when there is still reasonable doubt. In March 2017 the CSM disciplinary court acquitted Mignini of all allegations, and they found that in his conduct "there was no wrongdoing"."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliano_Mignini

Last edited by Numbers; 15th January 2018 at 10:55 PM.
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 11:12 AM   #978
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Numbers - as usual very thorough and far more accurate.

Also a better demonstration of how the Italian judiciary takes care of their own.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 03:46 PM   #979
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,475
Quote:
** "In November 2011, a Court of Appeals accepted his preliminary objection and annulled the previous conviction, also declaring the prosecution by Florentine magistrates illegitimate - since some of the Florence prosecutors were also the offended parties - and sent the investigation file to a prosecutor in Turin. The Prosecution General of Florence appealed against the decision at the Supreme Court, so factually blocking the transfer to Turin for at least another year. In February 2013 the Florence office lost their appeal and the Supreme Court ordered the investigation be moved to Turin. Mignini said "It took me 7 years to be right" In 2016, the court of Turin dropped the remaining charges due to statutory terms expiration."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliano_Mignini

*** "While the Italian justice system does not prosecute criminal allegations beyond statutory terms through penal courts, Italian Magistrates are still subjected to a judgement also by a disciplinary court of the High Council of the Judiciary (Consiglio Superiore della Magistratura, or CSM) which seeks to find out facts in the merits, even if the Magistrate has already been acquitted of criminal charges on technicalities, or when there is still reasonable doubt. In March 2017 the CSM disciplinary court acquitted Mignini of all allegations, and they found that in his conduct "there was no wrongdoing"."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliano_Mignini


And of course it's entirely impossible that the wikipedia page for Mignini might have been *ahem* selectively edited by one or more people with a certain agenda........?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 04:00 PM   #980
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And of course it's entirely impossible that the wikipedia page for Mignini might have been *ahem* selectively edited by one or more people with a certain agenda........?
That much is clear. The armchair-detective guilter who Andrea Vogt outed in Florence tried to make some rapid fire edits to Mignini's Wiki page late last year. All were quickly reversed by mods.

It's why the only unfettered posting of factoids is at the hate sites.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 04:00 PM   #981
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,364
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And of course it's entirely impossible that the wikipedia page for Mignini might have been *ahem* selectively edited by one or more people with a certain agenda........?
The dysfunctional and often corruptly self-serving Italian judicial system let Mignini escape accountability. He has not been the only police officer or magistrate who has benefited from the practical impunity granted to persons in authority by the Italian judicial system.

Here's an interesting article on the Mignini role in the MoF (Narducci) case and its influence on the Knox - Sollecito case by Douglas Preston:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ssible-verdict

Excerpt:

"The overturning of the murder convictions of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of British exchange student Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy came as no surprise. The appeals trial showed that virtually all the crucial evidence used in the original trial to convict Knox and Sollecito was faulty, erroneous, worthless, or manipulated.
....
The story begins almost a decade ago, long before Meredith Kercher's murder, when the pubblico ministero (public prosecutor) of Perugia, Giuliano Mignini, opened an investigation into the mysterious death of a doctor whose body was found floating in Lake Trasimeno in 1985.

Mignini believed the doctor was connected to a satanic sect, which had murdered him because he was about to go to the police and reveal its many crimes. Mignini believed this shadowy cult was connected to infamous murders committed by a serial killer known as the Monster of Florence. ...."
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 05:58 PM   #982
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
In the linked article above, Preston writes:

Quote:
An enduring mystery is why Guede was repeatedly released after committing serious crimes, such as breaking and entering while in possession of a knife.
As far as I'm aware, the only time the police released Guede prior to the murder was when he was arrested for breaking into the Milan nursery school. What other "serious crimes" did he commit that the police were aware of and then released him? They were unaware of the Tramontano break-in until after the murder and had not connected him to the Perugia law office break-in until he was found in possession of items stolen from it when arrested in Milan.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 16th January 2018 at 07:23 PM.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 09:09 PM   #983
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,364
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
In the linked article above, Preston writes:



As far as I'm aware, the only time the police released Guede prior to the murder was when he was arrested for breaking into the Milan nursery school. What other "serious crimes" did he commit that the police were aware of and then released him? They were unaware of the Tramontano break-in until after the murder and had not connected him to the Perugia law office break-in until he was found in possession of items stolen from it when arrested in Milan.
Unfortunately, no reference citations were attached to Preston's article.

Here's another excerpt from that article:

"About 50% of all criminal convictions in Italy are reversed or greatly modified on appeal. Knox and Sollecito join the 4 million Italians since the war who have seen their lives ruined by false criminal charges, only to be proclaimed innocent after many years of agony and imprisonment."
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2018, 10:20 PM   #984
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Unfortunately, no reference citations were attached to Preston's article.

Here's another excerpt from that article:

"About 50% of all criminal convictions in Italy are reversed or greatly modified on appeal. Knox and Sollecito join the 4 million Italians since the war who have seen their lives ruined by false criminal charges, only to be proclaimed innocent after many years of agony and imprisonment."
A surprising source which confirms this fact is Barbie Nadeau. As bad as she had been as an author - spreading sexualized factoids as facts ......

.... In Dec 2009 she appeared as a CNN correspondent from Perugia at the time of the 1st Instance conviction of Raffaele and Amanda. On screen she summarized things this way: "The case against the pair was weak, but the defence was weaker. This could very well get overturned at appeal." IIRC it was she who later in that report reiterated that about half of first instance convictions are overturned at the required second instance trial anyway.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.

Last edited by Bill Williams; 16th January 2018 at 10:21 PM.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 06:48 AM   #985
sept79
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 310
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
A surprising source which confirms this fact is Barbie Nadeau. As bad as she had been as an author - spreading sexualized factoids as facts ......

.... In Dec 2009 she appeared as a CNN correspondent from Perugia at the time of the 1st Instance conviction of Raffaele and Amanda. On screen she summarized things this way: "The case against the pair was weak, but the defence was weaker. This could very well get overturned at appeal." IIRC it was she who later in that report reiterated that about half of first instance convictions are overturned at the required second instance trial anyway.


Is one to deduce that first instance trials are not taken very seriously except by the accused?
sept79 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 07:15 AM   #986
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,364
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
A surprising source which confirms this fact is Barbie Nadeau. As bad as she had been as an author - spreading sexualized factoids as facts ......

.... In Dec 2009 she appeared as a CNN correspondent from Perugia at the time of the 1st Instance conviction of Raffaele and Amanda. On screen she summarized things this way: "The case against the pair was weak, but the defence was weaker. This could very well get overturned at appeal." IIRC it was she who later in that report reiterated that about half of first instance convictions are overturned at the required second instance trial anyway.
Originally Posted by sept79 View Post
Is one to deduce that first instance trials are not taken very seriously except by the accused?
I don't dispute that about 50% of first instance trials in Italy are reversed, but one shouldn't take this statistic as true without some confirmation based on an analysis of actual reliable data.

Comments by journalists, unsupported by reliable data from meaningful sources, may be misleading. Take, for example, the statement by Barbie Nadeau that in the first instance trial, the defense case was weaker than the prosecution case. What is the factual basis for this value judgment?

Based upon my reading of the Massei court motivation report, I believe that the defense adequately established strong doubt, one that any reasonable person would accept, that the prosecution case did not prove any guilt on the part of Knox or Sollecito. However, the Massei court consistently interpreted evidence arbitrarily to favor the prosecution case and thus judged Knox and Sollecito guilty based on an arbitrary and unreasonable probabilistic evaluation, contrary to Italian law. Italian law, CPP Article 533, requires that a conviction must be based on the establishment of guilt by proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

And if Nadeau stated that an appeal (second instance) trial is required in Italy, that only displays a lack of knowledge on her part, which infects her readers with misinformation. The second instance or appeal trial only happens if there is an appeal by the accused or the prosecutor; it is not required otherwise.

Thus, for example, the Boninsegna court first instance trial, which acquitted Amanda Knox of aggravated continuing calunnia against the police, was a final and definitive trial, because the prosecution did not appeal the judgment.
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 08:49 AM   #987
sept79
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 310
Why did the "Massei court consistently interpret evidence arbitrarily to favor the prosecution case and thus judge Knox and Sollecito guilty based on an arbitrary and unreasonable probabilistic evaluation"? Was Massei charged with finding Knox and Sollecito guilty by some 'higher' authority knowing that an almost automatic appeal trial would right the wrong? It seems like Italian 'justice' trivializes incarceration.
sept79 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 11:28 AM   #988
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
I agree that Nadeau's statement regarding the "weak" defense is unsupported. Remember that Marasca-Bruno found that they should never have been convicted on the evidence presented at any of the preceding trials.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 11:49 AM   #989
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Originally Posted by sept79 View Post
Why did the "Massei court consistently interpret evidence arbitrarily to favor the prosecution case and thus judge Knox and Sollecito guilty based on an arbitrary and unreasonable probabilistic evaluation"? Was Massei charged with finding Knox and Sollecito guilty by some 'higher' authority knowing that an almost automatic appeal trial would right the wrong? It seems like Italian 'justice' trivializes incarceration.
The 2015 Marasca/Bruno report was aimed as squarely at Massei as it was at Nencini.

It was Massei who made himself an expert of the experts. Massei even wrote that it would have done no good allowing independent experts to review Stefanoni's work.

Why? Because, he reasoned, even if thos independent experts disparaged the prosecution's DNA evidence, massei said it'd still be up to him to break the tie.

Seemingly it would have bothered him not that an independent expert would contradict the police!!

So from there, Massei simply arbitrarily "put R and A in the room". From there he simply built a scenerio that must have been true, not that any individual one of those items had ever been demonstrated.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 02:27 PM   #990
sept79
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 310
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The 2015 Marasca/Bruno report was aimed as squarely at Massei as it was at Nencini.

It was Massei who made himself an expert of the experts. Massei even wrote that it would have done no good allowing independent experts to review Stefanoni's work.

Why? Because, he reasoned, even if those independent experts disparaged the prosecution's DNA evidence, Massei said it'd still be up to him to break the tie.

Seemingly it would have bothered him not that an independent expert would contradict the police!!

So from there, Massei simply arbitrarily "put R and A in the room". From there he simply built a scenario that must have been true, not that any individual one of those items had ever been demonstrated.

So why did Massei proceed in this manner? He wasn't concerned about discovering the truth? A higher authority 'made it worth his while' to find Knox/Sollecito guilty? He didn't wish to go against the prosecution? He didn't wish to go against Italy's finest scientific 'experts'? He is anti-American? He thought it was better for his career to pass the case along to the appeal process?

If nothing else, Massei looks the part of a judge and has the demeanor (i.e., ego) of a judge.
sept79 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 04:08 PM   #991
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,475
Originally Posted by sept79 View Post
So why did Massei proceed in this manner? He wasn't concerned about discovering the truth? A higher authority 'made it worth his while' to find Knox/Sollecito guilty? He didn't wish to go against the prosecution? He didn't wish to go against Italy's finest scientific 'experts'? He is anti-American? He thought it was better for his career to pass the case along to the appeal process?

If nothing else, Massei looks the part of a judge and has the demeanor (i.e., ego) of a judge.

IMO a significant (perhaps majority) explanation for this is one of the other institutionalised defects in the Italian criminal justice system: judges* - particularly, it seems, in first-instance trials - appear to have an inherent bias to the prosecution case. I believe this partly harks back to the old inquisitorial system, where PMs were (and, IMO, still largely ARE) seen by first-instance judges as unbiassed "truth-seekers", and that therefore the PM's version of events is taken as the de facto "truth" of the matter unless/until the defence can actively disprove the PM's case. And (IMO) it also partly arises because PMs are members of the judiciary and are close colleagues of judges. This is a system which is set up for failure and unjust outcomes. The Knox/Sollecito trial before Massei manifestly lived up to expectations in this respect......


* Oh, and anyone who bleats something along the lines of "But there are only two actual judges and six lay "jurors" on the judicial panel trying the case, so the lay members are in the majority etc etc etc" has probably been smoking plenty of the type of herb that was lovingly home-cultivated by Kercher's boyfriend. The two judges control the views/verdicts of the six lay members in virtually all cases. That ought to be easy to understand to even the most stupid pro-guilt commentator, for reasons which should also be childishly easy to divine.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 04:19 PM   #992
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,475
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree that Nadeau's statement regarding the "weak" defense is unsupported. Remember that Marasca-Bruno found that they should never have been convicted on the evidence presented at any of the preceding trials.

Uhhh...... Nadeau is, let's say, not quite up there on the Bernstein/Woodward/Hersh level of investigative journalism or intellectual rigour....

Any journalist with even an inkling of a) unfettered objectivity, b) commitment to truth and accuracy, c) intellectual reasoning skills, and d) commitment to truth over salacious clickbait-style journalism should easily have seen this case for what it was during the Massei trial. It was absolutely clear to anyone who possessed those attributes that the prosecution "case" was a toxic mess - and that at the very least, the required BARD hurdle for guilt was a huge way from being crossed. And therefore when the Massei "guilty" verdicts came in, there should have been immediate questions asked.

But, remember, every single one of the "journalists" covering this case/trial on an ongoing basis in Perugia was entirely in the pocket of Mignini: he clearly cultivated them deliberately by holding court with them regularly and drip-feeding them juicy bits of information (most of which turned out to be either gross distortions/exaggerations or flat-out falsehoods); and the "journalists" in turn were either too stupid to realise they were being played like fiddles, and/or they became addicted to the heady thrill of access to Mignini and the regular provision of authority-fed juicy tidbits for their reports.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 07:36 PM   #993
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
It's been a whole 3 weeks since his last e-book. Shouldn't Nick van der Leek et Cie have a new, researched in-depth crime novel out on Knox?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th January 2018, 11:32 PM   #994
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's been a whole 3 weeks since his last e-book. Shouldn't Nick van der Leek et Cie have a new, researched in-depth crime novel out on Knox?
Like us, Nick van der Leek is still waiting for the apology that Peter Quennell promised - one made to Mignini. A strange hoped-for promise to be sure, since Sollecito and Gumbel actually won.... or more properly, Mignini's defamation case and claims against them for what had been in Honor Boundhad been thrown out of court.

Mignini then withdrew his parallel civil suit.

But ever the optimist, Peter Quennell said that this had not really been a disaster for Mignini - Pete said that the next week would see an apology from Gumbel/Sollecito.

"Next wee" never came.

It's one less thing Nick van der Leek can cut and paste into his monthly e-books. He'd taken a break from the Kercher case to cut and paste one on the Peterson murder, where van der Leek solved the case!!!!!
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 18th January 2018, 12:48 AM   #995
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Like us, Nick van der Leek is still waiting for the apology that Peter Quennell promised - one made to Mignini. A strange hoped-for promise to be sure, since Sollecito and Gumbel actually won.... or more properly, Mignini's defamation case and claims against them for what had been in Honor Boundhad been thrown out of court.

Mignini then withdrew his parallel civil suit.

But ever the optimist, Peter Quennell said that this had not really been a disaster for Mignini - Pete said that the next week would see an apology from Gumbel/Sollecito.

"Next wee" never came.

It's one less thing Nick van der Leek can cut and paste into his monthly e-books. He'd taken a break from the Kercher case to cut and paste one on the Peterson murder, where van der Leek solved the case!!!!!
Oh, don't worry about that apology! It's coming. It's coming. Slick Pete has told us so and everything he's ever told us will happen has come to pass.

Regarding his solving the Peterson murder, it's a wonder he hasn't been snapped up by the South Africa Police Services.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 12:59 AM   #996
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
Poor Slick Pete. His campaign of hate is not having the results he wanted. Roanoke College has announced:

Quote:
Truth Matters: A Conversation with Amanda Knox: Jan. 24th at 7:30pm

(LOCATION CHANGE TO OLIN THEATER - due to the popularity of this event)
https://www.roanoke.edu/events/amanda_knox_documentary


Nothing much going right for the old gang over at TJMK. The only thing that has gone their way in the last 3 years is Raffaele being denied compensation. Other than that, they've done nothing but strike out. I'll see if I can muster up some sympathy....

Nope.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 08:49 AM   #997
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,503
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Poor Slick Pete. His campaign of hate is not having the results he wanted. Roanoke College has announced:


https://www.roanoke.edu/events/amanda_knox_documentary


Nothing much going right for the old gang over at TJMK. The only thing that has gone their way in the last 3 years is Raffaele being denied compensation. Other than that, they've done nothing but strike out. I'll see if I can muster up some sympathy....

Nope.
Truth matters to Roanoke, Quennell doesn't.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 12:14 PM   #998
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
This article about how the #metoo movement has pretty much failed in Italy helps explain the attitude there about Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher.

Quote:
Twenty-five-year-old Arianna Pavoncello believes that is because in Italy, "there is always this thought of the female who provokes, and so boys will be boys."
Quote:
Feminist author Lorella Zanardo says Italians' double standard has roots in centuries of Catholic education.

"Either you are a good wife, a sort of saint," she says. Or "you behave very freely and you are considered not a very serious girl, let's say."
Quote:
Italian conservatives are not alone in attacking the #MeToo movement. Many leftist intellectuals are convinced that it threatens sexual freedom.

Author Chiara Barzini says this leftist view reflects snobbery against America, a society many Italians see as puritanical and having a take-no-prisoners mindset.
https://www.npr.org/sections/paralle...d-public-scorn

This is the attitude that helped color Italians' view of the Kercher case:

1. Amanda = slut for daring to have a sex life outside a "boyfriend" relationship which makes sex acceptable
.
2. Meredith = saint who only had sex with a "boyfriend". No mention of her past sexual history was ever mentioned although she had one.

3. Amanda seduced RS with her foxy ways and manipulated him and Guede into killing Kercher in a sex game gone wrong.

4. RS and Guede were helpless against the foreign vixen "leader" and it was all her idea.

5. "Snobbery against America" influenced how Italians viewed Amanda.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 01:22 PM   #999
bagels
Master Poster
 
bagels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,014
TJMK: The Italian judicial system is corrupt, incompetent, dishonest! Read their report to see them directly contradict themselves!

Colleges/Law Schools: Yeah we know...that's why we invited AK....

bagels is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th January 2018, 06:44 PM   #1000
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,175
Whiney Slick Pete's latest on TJMK Front Page:

Quote:
Breaking news. Hoaxers have apparently poisoned Roanoke College minds. So professional promoter of bigotry Amanda Knox will once again, in person and on film, make the same ******* crazy claims about Italy and Italians you can read below. Paid for without their consent from students' fees.
I'd say the college has a pretty good idea of who is making the ******* crazy claims...and it sure ain't the people not bombarding them with crazy emails whining about Knox speaking there.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:38 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.