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Old 15th January 2018, 02:32 PM   #801
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by baron View Post

You're dead right I do, every one of them. People who do things unthinkingly because they lack the brainpower for independent initiative should be shamed at every opportunity, and there's a double helping for shame for those who maintain that unless I follow their lead like some sort of gormless re-Tweeting automaton then I'm perfectly OK with the notion of sexual assault.
Does that include Christians and every theist? How about poor Trump voters? I love how you are so one sided in your thinking and attacks. Yes, there are hypocrites in Hollywood, just as there are in the White House and every damn church. Do you also attack them?
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Old 15th January 2018, 02:36 PM   #802
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Does that include Christians and every theist? How about poor Trump voters? I love how you are so one sided in your thinking and attacks. Yes, there are hypocrites in Hollywood, just as there are in the White House and every damn church. Do you also attack them?
Yet again I have no idea what you're talking about. The part you quoted isn't even about hypocrisy.
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Old 15th January 2018, 02:36 PM   #803
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
And again I find this "You didn't speak up before therefore you speaking up now is tainted or wrong" mentality baffling.

I mean I know this is a shocking paradigm shift for some people but political whataboutism is not necessary in everything.
Women speaking up now is what it is. The notion that conservative women speaking up about conservative perverts "kicked off" a progressive movement is laughable.
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Old 15th January 2018, 02:44 PM   #804
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yet again I have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't think acbytesla is the topic of this thread.
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Old 15th January 2018, 03:01 PM   #805
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One reason O'Reilly didn't get fired sooner: His boss, Roger Ailes, was sexually harassing women as well.
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Old 15th January 2018, 04:10 PM   #806
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Already covered; but to repeat again: #metoo is about fearlessly talking about what happened, it's not about creating the consequences. Rapists go to prison, people who cop a feel generally do not, and #metoo has caused zero net change to the way any of that turns out; in fact come to think of it I'm not aware of a single person who has been alleged in a #metoo allegation that's even actually been arrested, let alone convicted and sentenced to any amount of jail time - and that's regardless of the severity of the alleged offense.
I agree, and I'm aware of that. But at the same time, there does exist an internet culture of witch hunting. For instance, the famous case of the woman who tweeted some bad taste joke about her trip to Africa, and how she was gonna gets aids. By the time she landed on Africa and opened Twitter, she was flooded with death threats, insults and all kinds of just flat bullying. It's a good example of a person who gets a very extreme treatment over something that, while it was wrong, doesn't merit that type of reaction.

The internet (meaning, human beings on the internet) does do that. The internet does place people such as Aziz Ansari or Louis Ck in the same line of fire as Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey. And the #metoo movement is a part of that.

The original intentions of the #metoo movement may not have anything to do with that, but sadly the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Old 15th January 2018, 04:46 PM   #807
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I agree, and I'm aware of that. But at the same time, there does exist an internet culture of witch hunting. For instance, the famous case of the woman who tweeted some bad taste joke about her trip to Africa, and how she was gonna gets aids. By the time she landed on Africa and opened Twitter, she was flooded with death threats, insults and all kinds of just flat bullying. It's a good example of a person who gets a very extreme treatment over something that, while it was wrong, doesn't merit that type of reaction.

The internet (meaning, human beings on the internet) does do that. The internet does place people such as Aziz Ansari or Louis Ck in the same line of fire as Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey. And the #metoo movement is a part of that.

The original intentions of the #metoo movement may not have anything to do with that, but sadly the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I get that; but as far as I'm concerned, personal responsibility for actions should be treated as more or less the grand unified theory of responsibility, true in all cases. In the same way that a rape is solely and only the fault of the rapist and not, say, the woman's for dressing skimpy and getting him into a "rapey mood", so too is a death threat the fault of the person who made it and not whatever video they watched or tweet they read that made them want to make it.

It seems to me that asking women who disclose abuse publicly to refrain lest their alleged perpetrators get death threats from the internet, at the end of the day still comes down to asking them not to disclose abuse publicly. The problem with that is, it describes the status quo for decades until very recently; staying silent has been fairly proven not to lead to any social change, which is the desired outcome.
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Old 15th January 2018, 06:13 PM   #808
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
And again I find this "You didn't speak up before therefore you speaking up now is tainted or wrong" mentality baffling.

I mean I know this is a shocking paradigm shift for some people but political whataboutism is not necessary in everything.
Not to mention of course, that every person is different.

Some people cope with personal/psychological trauma well, some do not. Rapes often go unreported because the victim is so traumatised by what happened that they can hardly bear to think about it, and certainly don't want to relive it by telling others. Some might also take time before they feel they can talk about it, and that time also varies from person to person.

Baron wants everyone to be little tin soldiers... one size fits all. Well, that just ain't gonna happen... this is real people living in a real world, not some idealised imaginary world where everyone acts and responds the same.
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Old 15th January 2018, 06:17 PM   #809
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post

The internet (meaning, human beings on the internet) does do that. The internet does place people such as Aziz Ansari or Louis Ck in the same line of fire as Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey. And the #metoo movement is a part of that.
They should all be in the line of fire.
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Old 15th January 2018, 07:09 PM   #810
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I get that; but as far as I'm concerned, personal responsibility for actions should be treated as more or less the grand unified theory of responsibility, true in all cases. In the same way that a rape is solely and only the fault of the rapist and not, say, the woman's for dressing skimpy and getting him into a "rapey mood", so too is a death threat the fault of the person who made it and not whatever video they watched or tweet they read that made them want to make it.

It seems to me that asking women who disclose abuse publicly to refrain lest their alleged perpetrators get death threats from the internet, at the end of the day still comes down to asking them not to disclose abuse publicly. The problem with that is, it describes the status quo for decades until very recently; staying silent has been fairly proven not to lead to any social change, which is the desired outcome.
Oh no no, don't get me wrong: I've never said that women should refrain from reporting abuse, no matter what kind of abuse it is. It's mostly about how we, as a society, treat that information once it comes out. But we don't disagree there.
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Old 15th January 2018, 10:36 PM   #811
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Concerning the topic of this thread, there is an interesting situation involving comedian and TV star Aziz Ansari. He apparently met a young lady at a party, eventually taking her to dinner some days later. After dinner they returned to his apartment and some awkward sexual interactions occurred. She has since told her side of the story to Feminist magazine 'Babe', calling out Ansari for not picking up her nonverbal communications to stop. She says that when she voiced her desire for him to stop, he did and dressed. Interesting to read responses to this story. Some are in the car with the unnamed woman, others are riding with Ansari. Thoughts? As a young (ish) and recently single man, I can openly admit that I have had awkward encounters in which I thought a woman was more into me than she was. In turn, I have experienced the reverse in which a woman thought I was more into it than I was. This particular incident seems to be one of those, and he stopped once she explicitly told him what was up. Hard for me to see much of anything wrong here. Akward? Sure. Wrong?In the way he acted, sure. But criminally so? Ehh, no. Thoughts?

Story: https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

An interesting opinion piece from the Times https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/o...ment.html?_r=0

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Old 16th January 2018, 01:17 AM   #812
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Concerning the topic of this thread, there is an interesting situation involving comedian and TV star Aziz Ansari. He apparently met a young lady at a party, eventually taking her to dinner some days later. After dinner they returned to his apartment and some awkward sexual interactions occurred. She has since told her side of the story to Feminist magazine 'Babe', calling out Ansari for not picking up her nonverbal communications to stop. She says that when she voiced her desire for him to stop, he did and dressed. Interesting to read responses to this story. Some are in the car with the unnamed woman, others are riding with Ansari. Thoughts? As a young (ish) and recently single man, I can openly admit that I have had awkward encounters in which I thought a woman was more into me than she was. In turn, I have experienced the reverse in which a woman thought I was more into it than I was. This particular incident seems to be one of those, and he stopped once she explicitly told him what was up. Hard for me to see much of anything wrong here. Akward? Sure. Wrong?In the way he acted, sure. But criminally so? Ehh, no. Thoughts?

Story: https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

An interesting opinion piece from the Times https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/o...ment.html?_r=0
I've read many of the comments on various sites about this case. Most side with him and I agree. Just more evidence of a witch hunt. I don't care that a few don't seem to like me using that term. That's exactly what it's become. Some claim he had power over her therefore she couldn't just leave or not give him a blow job (twice). That's absolute nonsense. I guess he's only allowed to try to have sex with someone with the same amount money and the same age as him. Seems like this "Grace" is just jumping on the bandwagon and trying to embarrass him more than anything.
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Old 16th January 2018, 01:22 AM   #813
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Concerning the topic of this thread, there is an interesting situation involving comedian and TV star Aziz Ansari. He apparently met a young lady at a party, eventually taking her to dinner some days later. After dinner they returned to his apartment and some awkward sexual interactions occurred. She has since told her side of the story to Feminist magazine 'Babe', calling out Ansari for not picking up her nonverbal communications to stop. She says that when she voiced her desire for him to stop, he did and dressed. Interesting to read responses to this story. Some are in the car with the unnamed woman, others are riding with Ansari. Thoughts?
Well this is sort of QED what I was explaining earlier about so-called "subtle cues" and "body language" that some have protested should be sufficient to dictate whether consent exists or not. In theory it may sound fine; but in practice, it fails reliably - because men who want to have sex will of course not hesitate to interpret any "subtle cue" of approval as consent to move forward, while (as in the above case) consistently ignoring "subtle cues" of disapproval or even revulsion.

If the allegation of his behavior is true, a verbal and declarative "no" or "stop" is the only thing he was willing to accept as a lack of consent. This is true of many men; and yet the hypothetical situation of the opposite, that only a verbal "yes" should count as consent, is treated as absolutely preposterous, intrinsically violative of men's right and prerogative as "sexual beings" to pursue partners for sex.
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Old 16th January 2018, 01:55 AM   #814
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well this is sort of QED what I was explaining earlier about so-called "subtle cues" and "body language" that some have protested should be sufficient to dictate whether consent exists or not. In theory it may sound fine; but in practice, it fails reliably - because men who want to have sex will of course not hesitate to interpret any "subtle cue" of approval as consent to move forward, while (as in the above case) consistently ignoring "subtle cues" of disapproval or even revulsion.

If the allegation of his behavior is true, a verbal and declarative "no" or "stop" is the only thing he was willing to accept as a lack of consent. This is true of many men; and yet the hypothetical situation of the opposite, that only a verbal "yes" should count as consent, is treated as absolutely preposterous, intrinsically violative of men's right and prerogative as "sexual beings" to pursue partners for sex.


Of course, there is no such thing as "playing hard to get"
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Old 16th January 2018, 02:00 AM   #815
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well this is sort of QED what I was explaining earlier about so-called "subtle cues" and "body language" that some have protested should be sufficient to dictate whether consent exists or not. In theory it may sound fine; but in practice, it fails reliably - because men who want to have sex will of course not hesitate to interpret any "subtle cue" of approval as consent to move forward, while (as in the above case) consistently ignoring "subtle cues" of disapproval or even revulsion.

If the allegation of his behavior is true, a verbal and declarative "no" or "stop" is the only thing he was willing to accept as a lack of consent. This is true of many men; and yet the hypothetical situation of the opposite, that only a verbal "yes" should count as consent, is treated as absolutely preposterous, intrinsically violative of men's right and prerogative as "sexual beings" to pursue partners for sex.
That's quite a mound of straw you are building. The problem with enthusiastic consent is that advocates aren't clear on how non-verbal communication functions in their framework.

Quote:
Until now, these sanctions have been voluntarily adopted by colleges; SB-967 gives them the backing of a government mandate. In addition to creating a vaguely and subjectively defined offense of nonconsensual sex, the bill also explicitly places the burden of proof on the accused, who must demonstrate that he (or she) took “reasonable steps … to ascertain whether the complainant affirmatively consented.” When the San Gabriel Valley Tribune asked Lowenthal how an innocent person could prove consent under such a standard, her reply was, “Your guess is as good as mine.”

Meanwhile, Culp-Ressler reassures her readers that passionate trysts without explicit agreement “aren’t necessarily breaches of an affirmative consent standard,” since, “if both partners were enthusiastic about the sexual encounter, there will be no reason for anyone to report a rape later.”
Linky.

Everyone seems rather confused, for that matter:

Quote:
When we talk about rape, we often flippantly say that the solution to rape is that people shouldn't be rapists — if you don't want to be accused of rape, don't rape people. If you're worried you might rape someone, don't. These snarky shorthands sound great on the surface, but they don't really address the fact that there are people out there who genuinely don't know that what they are doing is rape.

That was the whole point of the enthusiastic consent bill, to drive people into thinking about sexuality and having proactive conversations about sexuality. Rather than assuming passive consent — he took his clothes off so he must have been interested in sex — the law requires that people specifically affirm that they want to have sex — "oh yes, please, do me, you handsome devil you." Yet, the poll shows that people are still having trouble grasping what "affirmative consent" means, which bodes ill for college students — especially women, who tend to be the most frequent targets of rape.

Participants in the poll were given three scenarios: Sexual activity when one person is impaired or unconscious, sexual activity when both parties are impaired, and sexual activity when both parties had not specifically and clearly agreed to sex. They were asked whether one or any of these scenarios would be viewed as a rape, and the results were... disappointing, to say the least.

Thankfully, most participants agreed that the first scenario was indeed a rape. That reflects years of advocacy and outreach to get people to understand that having sex with people who cannot consent is in fact rape. In the case of the second scenario, though, nearly 2/3 of respondents were unsure if it was rape, and 19 percent said it definitely wasn't. In other words, if both parties aren't able to consent by way of being under the influence, 19 percent of people think that's not rape — even though 96 percent of respondents thought that a situation where one person is sober and the other is not constitutes rape.

The divide highlighted the fact that people are still rather confused on how consent works and what it looks like. They could understand lack of consent in a sober on impaired situation, but not in an impaired on impaired situation, in which nobody involved has the capacity to consent to sexual activity. After years of advocacy work teaching people that people who are under the influence do not have the capacity to consent, we've seen people come to the understanding that if you're sober and you "have sex with" someone who is not, what you've actually done is rape that person. Two negatives in this case doesn't equal a positive, but people don't understand that, which is troubling.

In the case of the third scenario, respondents still had a tough time despite the fact that affirmative and enthusiastic consent have been dominating the news recently, especially in California thanks to the state's shiny new law. 47 percent of respondents agreed that when both people don't give explicit consent, it constituted rape, but 46 percent weren't sure, which is rather dismaying. Moreover, when you get into the fine grained details of these responses, more problems emerge.

What constitutes "consent" and "affirmative consent"? These are important questions to ask, because one person's definition of an active yes might be another person's passive yes or someone else's no. For respondents to the study, some thought that things like nodding, taking clothes off, and getting a condom were all evidence of consent. None of these things, notably, involve explicitly saying "why yes, I would like to have sex," though some imply a strong interest.

It feels a bit awkward — the result of a great skit on sex contracts, actually — to explicitly ask someone "would you like to have sex" and wait for a verbal response, and to keep checking in to make sure that everyone is still having fun.
Linky.

To your specific claims about this being a problem with uncontrollably sex-driven men's interpretation, if you look at the survey in question at "Q: Do you think if a person ... this establishes consent for more sexual activity?" Men are more likely to say yes, but they do track rather well with women's responses (for example, 44% of women and 50% of men think taking off clothes establishes consent).

And later on when asked both men and women prefer the "no means no" to the "yes means yes" standard.
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Old 16th January 2018, 02:07 AM   #816
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Quote:
When we talk about rape, we often flippantly say that the solution to rape is that people shouldn't be rapists — if you don't want to be accused of rape, don't rape people. If you're worried you might rape someone, don't. These snarky shorthands sound great on the surface, but they don't really address the fact that there are people out there who genuinely don't know that what they are doing is rape.
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that those men also really don't want to learn or be told that what they are doing is rape, which manifests in dismissing women's complaints about the matter out-of-hand as 'making a big deal out of nothing', 'doing a disservice to victims of REAL rape (i.e., "which is not what I do")', 'trying to criminalize romance/seduction', and so forth when the complaints hit a little too close to home.
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Old 16th January 2018, 03:30 AM   #817
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
An interesting opinion piece from the Times https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/o...ment.html?_r=0
I do find that an interesting article, here is another one which is being circulated internationally, which claims that the woman who made the Ansari accusations is running the risk of damaging the #MeToo movement. Though I think it's going to take more than one false accusation to do that.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world...7rJ?li=AAgfIYZ

Now this is something I found on Snopes, the story itself dates from 1999 and was last updated in 2007 in which a false accusation by an unnamed person caused several people online activists identified as the person named in the email.

https://www.snopes.com/love/revenge/winter.asp

This is the worst case scenario.
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Old 16th January 2018, 04:02 AM   #818
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course, there is no such thing as "playing hard to get"
There shouldn't be, if someone is messing with your head like that walk the hell away from that kind of crazy.
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Old 16th January 2018, 04:04 AM   #819
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
That's quite a mound of straw you are building. The problem with enthusiastic consent is that advocates aren't clear on how non-verbal communication functions in their framework.
Exactly we just need to give women more lessons on how to effectively communicate non verbally. She meant to be saying no, but he heard yes so that is consent. The presumption is consent unless otherwise stated. Like when someone on a train doesn't react to groping it becomes consensual.
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Old 16th January 2018, 04:32 AM   #820
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Here indecency requires nudity, this would be public lewdness. A misdemeanor. Though I am not exactly sure if the described behavior would hit quite at that level. Fully masturbating certainly would, but this hits a level that is questionable. Can't find a good legal definition for exactly what would count.
I said "in my jurisdiction," and in the account I related it was in a pub, therefore in public.

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Old 16th January 2018, 04:34 AM   #821
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It wouldn't be public indecency. While he did masturbate in front of women, it was never in public.
You appear to be talking about something I wasn't talking about.
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Old 16th January 2018, 05:29 AM   #822
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
That's quite a mound of straw you are building. The problem with enthusiastic consent is that advocates aren't clear on how non-verbal communication functions in their framework.



Linky.

Everyone seems rather confused, for that matter:



Linky.

To your specific claims about this being a problem with uncontrollably sex-driven men's interpretation, if you look at the survey in question at "Q: Do you think if a person ... this establishes consent for more sexual activity?" Men are more likely to say yes, but they do track rather well with women's responses (for example, 44% of women and 50% of men think taking off clothes establishes consent).

And later on when asked both men and women prefer the "no means no" to the "yes means yes" standard.
It doesn't matter what they think. They are wrong. The legal standard should be verbal "yes means yes."
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Old 16th January 2018, 05:29 AM   #823
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Old 16th January 2018, 07:45 AM   #824
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From that New York Times piece:

Quote:
There is a useful term for what Grace experienced on her night with Mr. Ansari. It’s called “bad sex.” It sucks.
The End.
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Old 16th January 2018, 07:52 AM   #825
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
From that New York Times piece:



The End.
Yep like all the women who are into being groped on trains, they don't say no so clearly it is just awkward come ons.
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Old 16th January 2018, 07:54 AM   #826
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly we just need to give women more lessons on how to effectively communicate non verbally. She meant to be saying no, but he heard yes so that is consent. The presumption is consent unless otherwise stated. Like when someone on a train doesn't react to groping it becomes consensual.
Seeing as nothing I wrote or cited resembles this, have fun discussing these things with yourself.
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:05 AM   #827
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Seeing as nothing I wrote or cited resembles this, have fun discussing these things with yourself.
He got the message that she was into it, she didn't vocally say no, what is the big deal with it being on a couch or a subway train? They are both issues of reading non verbal communication, and until proper verbal communication contradicts the nonverbal what is the big deal?

So if you can't take the non verbal consent in that situation when does it become OK? The liability is on the woman to successfully communicate her non consent that is the clear standard many people use.
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:17 AM   #828
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He got the message that she was into it, she didn't vocally say no, what is the big deal with it being on a couch or a subway train? They are both issues of reading non verbal communication, and until proper verbal communication contradicts the nonverbal what is the big deal?

So if you can't take the non verbal consent in that situation when does it become OK? The liability is on the woman to successfully communicate her non consent that is the clear standard many people use.
What solution do you propose, to this conundrum?
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:45 AM   #829
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He got the message that she was into it, she didn't vocally say no, what is the big deal with it being on a couch or a subway train? They are both issues of reading non verbal communication, and until proper verbal communication contradicts the nonverbal what is the big deal?

So if you can't take the non verbal consent in that situation when does it become OK? The liability is on the woman to successfully communicate her non consent that is the clear standard many people use.
You have got to be able to acknowledge the slight difference between making a move on a person who has voluntarily come to your house for a date and grabbing the squishy parts of a stranger on a bus. Maybe neither is perfectly couth, but for heaven's sake. These hyperbolic arguments are so annoying. And what's more, they piss me off. They piss me off because they make women truly sound like helpless children.

I will fully acknowledge that sometimes (at least, when I was younger) this weird thing would happen when I felt sexual pressure in post-date circumstances. I would sort of think, "I don't really want to do anything, but he's so insistent, and he did buy me dinner, maybe it would just be easier to do it and get it out of the way so I can leave and not text him back ever again." And then I'd go through with it, turned off and with gritted teeth. And whose fault was that? Mine! Duh! I was behaving somewhat immaturely. Now, these boys were not completely above reproach. They were often boorish in their pushiness, but I personally never felt actually threatened. Just grossed out and ashamed of being too shy to just say, "Nope, sorry, not feeling it." See, I think a lot of women need to learn THAT skill and THAT level of confidence, rather than calling men who can't or won't read their minds rapists. We need to get more comfortable saying what we actually want. And unless it was literally discussed and a contract drawn up ahead of time, someone buying you a meal or some drinks does not mean you have to compensate them with sexy times. If they think you're a tease for biding your time and being honest with yourself and them, oh well. They're probably a dick.

I still think Aziz was probably selfish and clueness and "sex-greedy." So many guys are, and it can be really skin-crawling. Going through with it can make one feel really ashamed afterward. But I don't think an assault occurred in cases like this. I simply do not. Saying it has is the opposite of female empowerment. It's saying we can't even be trusted to say what we mean, so guys better be working overtime to try to figure it out in the moment. (Even if they're drunk themselves.)

*Disclaimer* - This would OBVIOUSLY not apply in cases where the woman is too trashed to think clearly (and the guy takes advantage of it). I never found myself in that situation on an early date. If I had, there might have been more grey area. I don't know. These things have a lot of variables.

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Old 16th January 2018, 08:47 AM   #830
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What solution do you propose, to this conundrum?
The idea of enthusiastic consent mitigates that, and of course talking is a great way to clear up ambiguities in reading body language.
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:49 AM   #831
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There shouldn't be, if someone is messing with your head like that walk the hell away from that kind of crazy.

I totally agree! Stay away from any woman (or man) who plays 'games' like that. It probably isn't worthwhile doing it with people like that anyway, so why run the risk?
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:53 AM   #832
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
You have got to be able to acknowledge the slight difference between making a move on a person who has voluntarily come to your house for a date and grabbing the squishy parts of a stranger on a bus. Maybe neither is perfectly couth, but for heaven's sake. These hyperbolic arguments are so annoying. And what's more, they piss me off. They piss me off because they make women truly sound like helpless children.
Yes the first really describes a lot of situations of date rape. If she freezes up and never actually says no, then it is all good after all. That was totally consensual sex you had. Really.
Quote:
I will fully acknowledge that sometimes (at least, when I was younger) this weird thing would happen when I felt sexual pressure in post-date circumstances. I would sort of think, "I don't really want to do anything, but he's so insistent, and he did buy me dinner, maybe it would just be easier to do it and get it out of the way so I can leave and not text him back ever again." And then I'd go through with it, turned off and with gritted teeth. And whose fault was that? Mine! Duh! I was behaving somewhat immaturely.
And if you just froze up and never intended to have sex it would clearly still be your fault right? It is all the woman's job to make the lack of consent clear in that situation because the date is enough to imply consent. That is why date rape is really much less of a thing than many people want to think because it was really consensual. And even if they said no, if they did not say it with enough vehemence it is still consensual. Unless you are yelling it is consensual.

Seriously where is the line? Plenty of people don't think a no that is not voiced strongly enough is a yes.

Or there is the old hear a "no" back off and then do it again, until they don't say no. Is that consent?
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:57 AM   #833
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Rather than trying to stipulate "enthusiastic consent" (got another one for buzzword bingo!), how about going for "enthusiastic shut-down" when necessary? I just don't see the effective difference between someone asking "Can I touch your boobs?" and me saying "No, you may not - hands off my treasures, you cad" vs. him doing a little lunge move on the couch and me sliding away and saying "No, I don't want to do that - hands off my fun-bags, you rapscallion!" Either way, I've got agency. The problem in situations like the Aziz one is that women don't largely feel comfortable claiming and expressing that agency. That needs to change. WE (ladies) can change it, and men understanding how we feel can help change it too.
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Old 16th January 2018, 09:01 AM   #834
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes the first really describes a lot of situations of date rape. If she freezes up and never actually says no, then it is all good after all. That was totally consensual sex you had. Really.
That's nothing like what I said, I never said a word about "freezing up," and frankly even if I had, I think my position about empowerment needing to come from our end would apply.


Quote:
And if you just froze up and never intended to have sex it would clearly still be your fault right? It is all the woman's job to make the lack of consent clear in that situation because the date is enough to imply consent. That is why date rape is really much less of a thing than many people want to think because it was really consensual. And even if they said no, if they did not say it with enough vehemence it is still consensual. Unless you are yelling it is consensual.

Seriously where is the line? Plenty of people don't think a no that is not voiced strongly enough is a yes.

Or there is the old hear a "no" back off and then do it again, until they don't say no. Is that consent?
The line is "When I say no, you stop, immediately and without question. When I slide away or duck a kiss, you stop, without whinging or pursuing. If you do not, immediately, you have crossed the line into sexual assault and/or harassment territory."

Wow, complicated.

I'm sorry, but "freezing up" when you're not being threatened without giving the man any inidication that you aren't willing? How can you say that man is raping you if he doesn't know you want to say no? You have got to tell him. It is your job.

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Old 16th January 2018, 09:02 AM   #835
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Rather than trying to stipulate "enthusiastic consent" (got another one for buzzword bingo!), how about going for "enthusiastic shut-down" when necessary? I just don't see the effective difference between someone asking "Can I touch your boobs?" and me saying "No, you may not - hands off my treasures, you cad" vs. him doing a little lunge move on the couch and me sliding away and saying "No, I don't want to do that - hands off my fun-bags, you rapscallion!" Either way, I've got agency. The problem in situations like the Aziz one is that women don't largely feel comfortable claiming and expressing that agency. That needs to change. WE (ladies) can change it, and men understanding how we feel can help change it too.
Yep then it isn't rape if she didn't say no hard enough. Very biblical, it is consensual if you are not fighting back enough.
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Old 16th January 2018, 09:03 AM   #836
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep then it isn't rape if she didn't say no hard enough. Very biblical, it is consensual if you are not fighting back enough.
No, it isn't rape if she didn't say (or indicate) no at all.

Can you read?
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Old 16th January 2018, 09:04 AM   #837
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Yes please mansplain to Isissxn how she doesn't know what she's talking about when she's literally talking about her own actions.
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Old 16th January 2018, 09:04 AM   #838
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
You have got to be able to acknowledge the slight difference between making a move on a person who has voluntarily come to your house for a date and grabbing the squishy parts of a stranger on a bus. Maybe neither is perfectly couth, but for heaven's sake. These hyperbolic arguments are so annoying. And what's more, they piss me off. They piss me off because they make women truly sound like helpless children.

I will fully acknowledge that sometimes (at least, when I was younger) this weird thing would happen when I felt sexual pressure in post-date circumstances. I would sort of think, "I don't really want to do anything, but he's so insistent, and he did buy me dinner, maybe it would just be easier to do it and get it out of the way so I can leave and not text him back ever again." And then I'd go through with it, turned off and with gritted teeth. And whose fault was that? Mine! Duh! I was behaving somewhat immaturely. Now, these boys were not completely above reproach. They were often boorish in their pushiness, but I personally never felt actually threatened. Just grossed out and ashamed of being too shy to just say, "Nope, sorry, not feeling it." See, I think a lot of women need to learn THAT skill and THAT level of confidence, rather than calling men who can't or won't read their minds rapists. We need to get more comfortable saying what we actually want. And unless it was literally discussed and a contract drawn up ahead of time, someone buying you a meal or some drinks does not mean you have to compensate them with sexy times. If they think you're a tease for biding your time and being honest with yourself and them, oh well. They're probably a dick.

I still think Aziz was probably selfish and clueness and "sex-greedy." So many guys are, and it can be really skin-crawling. Going through with it can make one feel really ashamed afterward. But I don't think an assault occurred in cases like this. I simply do not. Saying it has is the opposite of female empowerment. It's saying we can't even be trusted to say what we mean, so guys better be working overtime to try to figure it out in the moment. (Even if they're drunk themselves.)

*Disclaimer* - This would OBVIOUSLY not apply in cases where the woman is too trashed to think clearly (and the guy takes advantage of it). I never found myself in that situation on an early date. If I had, there might have been more grey area. I don't know. These things have a lot of variables.
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Old 16th January 2018, 09:05 AM   #839
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
That's nothing like what I said, I never said a word about "freezing up," and frankly even if I had, I think my position about empowerment needing to come from our end would apply.
Yep and if that happens on a train it is no different, consent is assumed until "enthusiastic shut-down". Any woman who for any reason just lays back and hopes it stops is consenting now. The clearly you would have disagreed with the jury in the rape trial I was involved with, she didn't "enthusiastic shut-down" her step mothers step father and so it was consensual. She was 16 after all, all good. Travesty of justice that must have been.
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Old 16th January 2018, 09:07 AM   #840
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Yes please mansplain to Isissxn how she doesn't know what she's talking about when she's literally talking about her own actions.
And her telling all the victims who didn't meet her standard of "enthusiastic shut-down", that they consented is clearly great.
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