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Old 26th February 2021, 10:30 AM   #3001
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The Tarot cards did the prediction. Intelligence and more from a set of dumb cards.
No. You stated the painfully obvious and tried to style it as a prediction that your magic cards gave you.

Quote:
As miraculous as intelligence beings self-assembling from dumb molecules.
Not a miracle, just science you choose not to attempt to understand before criticizing it.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:31 AM   #3002
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Anyway, any chance of that definition of “intermediate organism”?
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Old 26th February 2021, 11:20 AM   #3003
JesseCuster
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Murphy drops some buttered toast on the kitchen floor and it lands butter-side-up.
He looks down in astonishment, for he knows that it's a law of nature of the universe that buttered toast always falls butter-side-down.
So he rushes round to the presbytery to fetch Father Flanagan.
He tells the priest that a miracle has occurred in his kitchen. But he won't say what it is, so he asks Fr. Flanagan to come and see it with his own eyes.
He leads Fr. Flanagan into the kitchen and asks him what he sees on the floor.
"Well," says the priest, "it's pretty obvious. Someone has dropped some buttered toast on the floor and then, for some reason, they flipped it over so that the butter was on top."
"No, Father, I dropped it and it landed like that!" exclaimed Murphy
"Oh my Lord," says Fr. Flanagan, "dropped toast never falls with the butter side up. It's a miracle. Wait... it's not for me to say it's a miracle. I'll have to report this matter to the Bishop and he'll have to deal with it. He'll send some people round; to interview you, take photos, etc."
A thorough investigation is conducted, not only by the archdiocese but by scientists sent over from the Curia in Rome. No expense is spared. There is great excitement in the town as everyone knows that a miracle will bring in much need tourism revenue.
Then, after 8 long weeks and with great fanfare, the Bishop announces the final ruling.
"It is certain that some kind of an extraordinary event took place in Murphy's kitchen, quite outside the natural laws of the universe. Yet the Holy See must be very cautious before ruling a miracle. All other explanations must be ruled out.
Unfortunately, in this case, it has been declared "No Miracle", because they think that Murphy may have buttered the toast on the wrong side.
One trick is to tell 'em stories that don't go anywhere - like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days...
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Old 26th February 2021, 04:56 PM   #3004
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
One trick is to tell 'em stories that don't go anywhere - like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days...
You missed out the bit about the onion. I like the bit about the onion. PartSkeptic always includes the onion, and every random thing else...........
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Old 26th February 2021, 04:58 PM   #3005
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
My wife said the gate must be unlocked. I suggested we use the rock-paper-scissors to decide who goes. I was told that she cooked, washed and cleaned, and I was going to open the gate.

I said that if she did the RPS she would have lost.

She did rock and I did paper.

I said that it was actually unfair. How can you beat some-one who can see a short while into the future?



Or did I read her mind?

Or even plant a suggestion that she should choose a rock.

Or use psychoanalysis?

Or all of the above.

Out of interest, what do you think the chances of winning a single round of RPS are? How much significance should you draw from it?
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Old 26th February 2021, 04:59 PM   #3006
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Murphy drops some buttered toast on the kitchen floor and it lands butter-side-up.
He looks down in astonishment, for he knows that it's a law of nature of the universe that buttered toast always falls butter-side-down.
So he rushes round to the presbytery to fetch Father Flanagan.
He tells the priest that a miracle has occurred in his kitchen. But he won't say what it is, so he asks Fr. Flanagan to come and see it with his own eyes.
He leads Fr. Flanagan into the kitchen and asks him what he sees on the floor.
"Well," says the priest, "it's pretty obvious. Someone has dropped some buttered toast on the floor and then, for some reason, they flipped it over so that the butter was on top."
"No, Father, I dropped it and it landed like that!" exclaimed Murphy
"Oh my Lord," says Fr. Flanagan, "dropped toast never falls with the butter side up. It's a miracle. Wait... it's not for me to say it's a miracle. I'll have to report this matter to the Bishop and he'll have to deal with it. He'll send some people round; to interview you, take photos, etc."
A thorough investigation is conducted, not only by the archdiocese but by scientists sent over from the Curia in Rome. No expense is spared. There is great excitement in the town as everyone knows that a miracle will bring in much need tourism revenue.
Then, after 8 long weeks and with great fanfare, the Bishop announces the final ruling.
"It is certain that some kind of an extraordinary event took place in Murphy's kitchen, quite outside the natural laws of the universe. Yet the Holy See must be very cautious before ruling a miracle. All other explanations must be ruled out.
Unfortunately, in this case, it has been declared "No Miracle", because they think that Murphy may have buttered the toast on the wrong side.
The problem with this post is that with your posting history, none of us will know if you think this is a joke or not.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:00 PM   #3007
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. You stated the painfully obvious and tried to style it as a prediction that your magic cards gave you.it.

Not a miracle, just science you choose not to attempt to understand before criticizing
The root cause of all PartSkeptic's misunderstandings is, I'm convinced, his inability to accept that his own instinctive "common sense" understanding is sometimes simply wrong. Whether it's probability theory or evolution, if it contradicts what instinctively seems right he won't believe it. Which is a problem, given how counterintuitive much of modern science is.
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Old 26th February 2021, 11:41 PM   #3008
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Follow the science! Given the history of science, I worry about “new” science. Like mRNA vaccine.

https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1494.htm
…A woman would sit for four minutes with her chin in a holder while X-rays wove a delicate ozone smell about her. The hair on her chin was gone. Only later did she have to pay the terrible price. By 1970, one third of all radiation-induced cancer in women traced to X-ray hair-removal.
…But X-rays were painless, permanent -- and scientific. Like tobacco, they harbored a danger that lay beyond the near horizon.
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Old 27th February 2021, 12:08 AM   #3009
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Follow the science! Given the history of science, I worry about “new” science. Like mRNA vaccine.
I’m not surprised. People, especially older ones, tend to worry about things they don’t understand, especially when they are impacted or believe that they are impacted by them.

There’s really nothing much we can do about it if they lack the capacity for understanding. Explaining may not achieve anything except to frustrate both parties. Sometimes it’s better just to offer comfort and make sure their will is updated.
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Old 27th February 2021, 01:52 AM   #3010
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Follow the science! Given the history of science, I worry about “new” science. Like mRNA vaccine.

https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1494.htm
…A woman would sit for four minutes with her chin in a holder while X-rays wove a delicate ozone smell about her. The hair on her chin was gone. Only later did she have to pay the terrible price. By 1970, one third of all radiation-induced cancer in women traced to X-ray hair-removal.
…But X-rays were painless, permanent -- and scientific. Like tobacco, they harbored a danger that lay beyond the near horizon.
To try to prove how dangerous mRNA vaccines are (or could be) you link to a story about X-rays being used for hair removal.

So let's look at some from quotes the story.
"The dangers of X-rays were clear enough within a few years"
"The practice had been not just dangerous but often illegal as well, for decades"

Can you find a quote from any scientist that describes hair removal by use of X-rays as safe? Were there any double blind tests on X-rays for hair removal?

Is there, in fact, any way in which X-ray hair removal is like the development of mRNA vaccines (which have been extensively tested over a long period of time), other than in your imagination?
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Last edited by wollery; 27th February 2021 at 01:53 AM. Reason: errant comma
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Old 27th February 2021, 06:17 AM   #3011
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
To try to prove how dangerous mRNA vaccines are (or could be) you link to a story about X-rays being used for hair removal.

...

Is there, in fact, any way in which X-ray hair removal is like the development of mRNA vaccines (which have been extensively tested over a long period of time), other than in your imagination?
I can forsee an argument along the lines of "Science once thought tomatoes were poison!" or yet another emergence of our old friend thalidomide. I didn't even have to use tarot cards!
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Old 27th February 2021, 07:35 AM   #3012
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Follow the science! Given the history of science, I worry about “new” science. Like mRNA vaccine.

https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1494.htm
…A woman would sit for four minutes with her chin in a holder while X-rays wove a delicate ozone smell about her. The hair on her chin was gone. Only later did she have to pay the terrible price. By 1970, one third of all radiation-induced cancer in women traced to X-ray hair-removal.
…But X-rays were painless, permanent -- and scientific. Like tobacco, they harbored a danger that lay beyond the near horizon.
Originally Posted by wollery View Post
To try to prove how dangerous mRNA vaccines are (or could be) you link to a story about X-rays being used for hair removal.

So let's look at some from quotes the story.
"The dangers of X-rays were clear enough within a few years"
"The practice had been not just dangerous but often illegal as well, for decades"

Can you find a quote from any scientist that describes hair removal by use of X-rays as safe? Were there any double blind tests on X-rays for hair removal?

Is there, in fact, any way in which X-ray hair removal is like the development of mRNA vaccines (which have been extensively tested over a long period of time), other than in your imagination?
He's taking the creationist approach of conflating science as a process with technology as a product- he might just as well skip the pretense that his arguments against evolution have anything to do with science and go straight to "evolution isn't spiritual!" And add cherry-picking to his third-grader's Luddite methodology- if you're going to dump some vaccines because of how some technology was misused (despite science, not because of it), then, to be as evenly critical as PS pretends to be, you have to dump them all. There goes the eradication of smallpox and polio, consigned to voodoo because folks like PS mistrust what they can't take the trouble to understand.
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Old 27th February 2021, 07:37 AM   #3013
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It's a bit like the cryptobiologists proving the existence of bigfoot by pointing to the discovery of gorillas.
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Old 27th February 2021, 07:42 AM   #3014
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
My wife said the gate must be unlocked. I suggested we use the rock-paper-scissors to decide who goes. I was told that she cooked, washed and cleaned, and I was going to open the gate.

I said that if she did the RPS she would have lost.

She did rock and I did paper.

I said that it was actually unfair. How can you beat some-one who can see a short while into the future?



Or did I read her mind?

Or even plant a suggestion that she should choose a rock.

Or use psychoanalysis?

Or all of the above.
Or - possibly more likely - none of the above?
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Old 27th February 2021, 07:52 AM   #3015
JesseCuster
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
My wife said the gate must be unlocked. I suggested we use the rock-paper-scissors to decide who goes. I was told that she cooked, washed and cleaned, and I was going to open the gate.

I said that if she did the RPS she would have lost.

She did rock and I did paper.

I said that it was actually unfair. How can you beat some-one who can see a short while into the future?



Or did I read her mind?

Or even plant a suggestion that she should choose a rock.

Or use psychoanalysis?

Or all of the above.
All else being equal, you have a 1/3 chance of winning rock paper scissors, a 1/3 chance of losing and a 1/3 chance of drawing. Is there a point you're making here?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're being facetious, but it says a lot that you have time to post so many irrelevant and pointless anecdotes instead of just addressing the issue at hand. You're all over the place.
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Old 27th February 2021, 09:55 AM   #3016
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Easy.

The Tarot cards did the prediction. Intelligence and more from a set of dumb cards.

As miraculous as intelligence beings self-assembling from dumb molecules.
Could you re-state that in a way that's vaguely intelligible?

Do you recall when you were crowing about this prediction, claiming that it defied prevailing wisdom? Do you need a reminder?
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Old 27th February 2021, 10:30 AM   #3017
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Follow the science! Given the history of science, I worry about “new” science. Like mRNA vaccine.

I certainly don't want anyone introducing a substance into my body that would inject untested foreign genetic material into my cells and alter their function.

So please, wear a mask and (when available) get vaccinated.
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Old 27th February 2021, 10:43 AM   #3018
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Follow the science! Given the history of science, I worry about “new” science. Like mRNA vaccine.
Did you even read the article? The part you quoted about x-ray hair removal being "scientific" is couched in paragraphs that show that the dangers of x-rays were well know to science and medicine. Novelty use was outlawed for that reason. The practice this article identifies is that of back-alley cosmetologists -- not scientists -- who, either not knowing or not caring about the danger, marketed to their customers as a "scientific' (cautionary quotes emphasized) method of hair removal. People still say that today as a marketing ploy. You don't seem to understand the difference between obviously quackery and science. The villains in your story are not the scientists, but the ones who thumb their noses at science and profit from the ignorance of their clients. You know, the kind of people you typically rely on for your information.

With vaccines, the mRNA method of antibody production is not new. That is, the science is not new. We've been studying this for decades. What is new is the ability to actually manufacture mRNA vaccines. The technology to do so safely, reliably, and cheaply is what has just been perfected. Prior vaccines used the same molecular biology, but required deactivated pathogens to cause the mRNA to be produced. To get the desired effect without the possible side-effects of the actual pathogen is what makes these vaccines safer, not more dangerous. It's like getting the milk without the bother of owning your own cow.

This is amusing. The anti-vaxxer argument here -- and let's be clear that it's obvious whose spoon-feeding you your arguments -- is based on the premise that if science moves too quickly, it may overlook important dangers. In the abstract, that's not an unreasonable objection. In the specific example of mRNA vaccines it falls flat because the role of mRNA in vaccine operation is well-plowed ground. But in order to make that argument work, it's customary to find examples of where the prevailing science on some point seemed like a settled conclusion, but was then upset by an unexpected new finding. Only then can you wag your finger and say, "See, science doesn't always know everything."

But what you managed to find was an example of a danger science new about early on and warned people about, but which was ignored for an ulterior motive. Much as the people you're relying on to feed you "science" have ulterior motives. It's not an example of science gone wrong. It's an example of what happens when you pretend you know more than the relevant experts. Your argument is predictably inept.
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Old 27th February 2021, 12:05 PM   #3019
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I can forsee an argument along the lines of "Science once thought tomatoes were poison!" or yet another emergence of our old friend thalidomide. I didn't even have to use tarot cards!
Well, you have to remember it was a holistic naturopath who discovered the problem with Thalidomide using homeopathic methods.. [Checks notes] Oh wait. No it wasn't, it was an actual doctor doing science and analysing statistics who found it and in response, around the world, medical authorities put in place increased testing and new side effect reporting and data collection standards specifically to reduce the chances of anything like that happening again & catch it quickly if anything slips through.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:41 AM   #3020
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A little time to post. Last week I had to prepare for a video court hearing. Complicated. The other side not cooperating and causing obstacles. So I had quite a learning experience as to how it works and the things they do not inform one about.

I stayed home the whole week to avoid exposure to cell tower radiation. Every day I felt better and better. Had to use my wife to do my errands for me. After the hearing we went for lunch at an outdoor venue. Lovely. Coffee milkshake, calamari and chips.

But an hour later at 1 pm I did not feel well and lay down for half an hour. Got up and worked for an hour but then felt very sick. Vomiting with dry heaves. Headache, muscles pains, and nausea. So bad I went to bed and stayed there. Slept on and off the whole time until 8 am the next day. Suffered. I am now seriously sensitive to cell radiation.

I want to buy a small but accurate meter for when I absolutely have to go out.

Jay Utah. You should be able to recommend a good one that is reasonably priced that will fit in my pocket. I have one in mind but let me read what you consider not to be a "toy". You have been so scornful about my two choices, you sound like an expert.

I despair about the technical industry. I had to troubleshoot an old CNC machine with a CAN bus, a PLC and a PC controller driving large stepper motors. The MSR (master safety relay) had failed and was obsolete. The best replacement I could find was also obsolete. The local agent told me what the replacement was. I checked it and called them to say it would not work since it has no delay off contacts. Sorry they say. You need to add a time module. Documentation was horrendous. Turned out that the new one was now intelligent and now needed a special setup procedure.

After I get it working, we then had an unusual problem with the PLC. The LED input shows a proper high input and so does my voltage meter. But the program shows an error that cannot be cleared. I took the input cable off and wired directly to the 24 vdc (+). It showed a clear input signal.

To find the fault we discover that the drawings are wrong. We traced wires and found that instead of using the supply positive, they had taken a sneak wire from the safety circuit which should have no other equipment attached. To check the safety is clean and working, the MSR pulses the sensing voltage. The PLC LED is steady and so it my meter. But the PLC is fast (1ms) and can sense the pulses. We wired the circuit properly and got the machine going.

I have asked the Swiss manufacture to supply me with the Automation Software so I can trouble shoot into the program if needed.

I have a lot of legal filings and submission and another hearing in two weeks. I will be filing an appeal to this last hearing.

Can you believe that the judge said that he thought the man who took out a mortgage bond on his house was credible in denying that he took out a bond, and so was his story that he got the money from a lawyer (who was not a friend of his) who gave him the money with no written agreement, and no security, and nothing in writing?

I think that a man giving an alibi, that he was abducted by aliens and an shape shifting alien was the true killer despite all the witnesses, would have been told he has a possible defense and deserves a proper hearing. Strange that banks have no problem when presenting a mortgage bond and a history of defaults.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:49 AM   #3021
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
I’m not surprised. People, especially older ones, tend to worry about things they don’t understand, especially when they are impacted or believe that they are impacted by them.

There’s really nothing much we can do about it if they lack the capacity for understanding. Explaining may not achieve anything except to frustrate both parties. Sometimes it’s better just to offer comfort and make sure their will is updated.

Tell me how they "tested" for long-term side-effects?

Please. No wisecracks. I am serious. I have an inquiring mind and wish to know.

Go on. I wait to see what I am not understanding in the "science". Note how Dr. Fauci is now being discredited due to his changing positions on the "science".

I overheard a medical person telling someone that their department was supposed to all have the vaccine. Only 7 of the 54 medical staff would take the vaccine. Not old. Not sure about their understanding.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:53 AM   #3022
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Tell me how they "tested" for long-term side-effects?

Please. No wisecracks. I am serious. I have an inquiring mind and wish to know.

Go on. I wait to see what I am not understanding in the "science". Note how Dr. Fauci is now being discredited due to his changing positions on the "science".

I overheard a medical person telling someone that their department was supposed to all have the vaccine. Only 7 of the 54 medical staff would take the vaccine. Not old. Not sure about their understanding.
Despite that I consume a lot of news, I have not noted that. Some specific examples please.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:55 AM   #3023
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
He's taking the creationist approach of conflating science as a process with technology as a product- he might just as well skip the pretense that his arguments against evolution have anything to do with science and go straight to "evolution isn't spiritual!" And add cherry-picking to his third-grader's Luddite methodology- if you're going to dump some vaccines because of how some technology was misused (despite science, not because of it), then, to be as evenly critical as PS pretends to be, you have to dump them all. There goes the eradication of smallpox and polio, consigned to voodoo because folks like PS mistrust what they can't take the trouble to understand.

I trust the polio and other child vaccines and have advocated that anti-vaxxers take them. They have a proven track record. Show me the long terms trials for mRNA vaccines. Why are you not worried about over-stimulating the immune system in the long term (10-20 years) and creating auto-immune diseases? After all, you are growing spike proteins on healthy human cells and training the immune systems to attack formerly healthy body cells.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:17 PM   #3024
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
A little time to post. Last week I had to prepare for a video court hearing. Complicated. The other side not cooperating and causing obstacles. So I had quite a learning experience as to how it works and the things they do not inform one about.

I stayed home the whole week to avoid exposure to cell tower radiation. Every day I felt better and better. Had to use my wife to do my errands for me. After the hearing we went for lunch at an outdoor venue. Lovely. Coffee milkshake, calamari and chips.

But an hour later at 1 pm I did not feel well and lay down for half an hour. Got up and worked for an hour but then felt very sick. Vomiting with dry heaves. Headache, muscles pains, and nausea. So bad I went to bed and stayed there. Slept on and off the whole time until 8 am the next day. Suffered. I am now seriously sensitive to cell radiation.

I want to buy a small but accurate meter for when I absolutely have to go out.

Jay Utah. You should be able to recommend a good one that is reasonably priced that will fit in my pocket. I have one in mind but let me read what you consider not to be a "toy". You have been so scornful about my two choices, you sound like an expert.

I despair about the technical industry. I had to troubleshoot an old CNC machine with a CAN bus, a PLC and a PC controller driving large stepper motors. The MSR (master safety relay) had failed and was obsolete. The best replacement I could find was also obsolete. The local agent told me what the replacement was. I checked it and called them to say it would not work since it has no delay off contacts. Sorry they say. You need to add a time module. Documentation was horrendous. Turned out that the new one was now intelligent and now needed a special setup procedure.

After I get it working, we then had an unusual problem with the PLC. The LED input shows a proper high input and so does my voltage meter. But the program shows an error that cannot be cleared. I took the input cable off and wired directly to the 24 vdc (+). It showed a clear input signal.

To find the fault we discover that the drawings are wrong. We traced wires and found that instead of using the supply positive, they had taken a sneak wire from the safety circuit which should have no other equipment attached. To check the safety is clean and working, the MSR pulses the sensing voltage. The PLC LED is steady and so it my meter. But the PLC is fast (1ms) and can sense the pulses. We wired the circuit properly and got the machine going.

I have asked the Swiss manufacture to supply me with the Automation Software so I can trouble shoot into the program if needed.

I have a lot of legal filings and submission and another hearing in two weeks. I will be filing an appeal to this last hearing.

Can you believe that the judge said that he thought the man who took out a mortgage bond on his house was credible in denying that he took out a bond, and so was his story that he got the money from a lawyer (who was not a friend of his) who gave him the money with no written agreement, and no security, and nothing in writing?

I think that a man giving an alibi, that he was abducted by aliens and an shape shifting alien was the true killer despite all the witnesses, would have been told he has a possible defense and deserves a proper hearing. Strange that banks have no problem when presenting a mortgage bond and a history of defaults.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:21 PM   #3025
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I stayed home the whole week to avoid exposure to cell tower radiation. Every day I felt better and better. Had to use my wife to do my errands for me. After the hearing we went for lunch at an outdoor venue. Lovely. Coffee milkshake, calamari and chips.

But an hour later at 1 pm I did not feel well and lay down for half an hour. Got up and worked for an hour but then felt very sick. Vomiting with dry heaves. Headache, muscles pains, and nausea. So bad I went to bed and stayed there. Slept on and off the whole time until 8 am the next day. Suffered. I am now seriously sensitive to cell radiation.
Yeah, bad seafood with milkshake will to that to you.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:37 PM   #3026
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Despite that I consume a lot of news, I have not noted that. Some specific examples please.
I also have not seen this. I do think Fauci has changed some of his positions, not on the science, but following the science. Given how much was not known about Covid so recently, it would be odd if a scientifically minded person did not learn a thing or two on the way.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:43 PM   #3027
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Go on. I wait to see what I am not understanding in the "science".
No, you tend to complain when people explain things thoroughly to you. Go back and address the points people have already made. Then you can ask for more.

Quote:
Note how Dr. Fauci is now being discredited due to his changing positions on the "science".
Please provide links or references to this supposed discreditation. To be sure, the anti-vaxxers have certainly ramped up the vitriol against him. But I want to see your sources.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:51 PM   #3028
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Jay Utah. You should be able to recommend a good one that is reasonably priced that will fit in my pocket.
Gee, I don't know. You whine at me for writing lengthy posts which are, despite their length, entirely on topic. You beg me to write less thoroughly, to be more concise. Yet now you're trying to put me on the hook for something, but the challenge comes in the middle of a long post that rambles among several completely irrelevant and dissimilar topics. I don't think I feel like helping you under those circumstances.

And no, there doesn't exist an RF radiometer that is (1) accurate enough to assess biological effect from a suspected source, (2) pocket-sized, and (3) affordable.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 01:53 PM   #3029
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Why are you not worried about over-stimulating the immune system in the long term (10-20 years) and creating auto-immune diseases? After all, you are growing spike proteins on healthy human cells and training the immune systems to attack formerly healthy body cells.
Again, what makes you think the mechanism behind mRNA vaccines hasn't been well understood for a long time? What's new is the ability to make them cheaply and safely, in large quantities.

For there to be a long-term effect from harnessing healthy cells to produce elements of spike proteins, there has to be a long-term cause. It's not as if the cells that were recruited then keep on making those spike proteins, and are thus perpetual targets for antibodies. We've known literally for decades how mRNA operates in cells. It's not a lingering effect. It doesn't last 10-20 years. It doesn't "overstimulate" anything. I have no idea where you are getting all this nonsense. Oh, wait, I have exactly an idea.

Last edited by JayUtah; 3rd March 2021 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:02 PM   #3030
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I also have not seen this. I do think Fauci has changed some of his positions, not on the science, but following the science. Given how much was not known about Covid so recently, it would be odd if a scientifically minded person did not learn a thing or two on the way.
I'm pretty sure that his sources are crackpots. I'm also pretty sure that PS won't reveal them.

"People are saying..." as the saying goes.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:28 PM   #3031
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I also have not seen this. I do think Fauci has changed some of his positions, not on the science, but following the science. Given how much was not known about Covid so recently, it would be odd if a scientifically minded person did not learn a thing or two on the way.
Indeed, I would expect a shift in position after a year of round-the-clock study by the combined efforts of the world's virologists and epidemiologists. Specifically I expect some positions to have softened in terms of recommendations for public policy. This has the paradoxical effect of undermining new warnings such as for premature relaxation of precautions.

The focus on Dr. Fauci is really what amuses me. As usual, the far right seems to have conjured up a Satan to fear and loathe. It's not as if he's saying anything different than every other epidemiologist in the world. It's not as if the rest of the world pays the slightest attention to him; they have their own experts. The obsession over marginalizing or discrediting one scientist, as some sort of bellwether for the entire scientific community, smacks of the sort of dumbing-down that the far-right uses to manipulate its base.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:45 PM   #3032
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm pretty sure that his sources are crackpots. I'm also pretty sure that PS won't reveal them.

"People are saying..." as the saying goes.
Ah, the vox populi. The main problem being of course that most people are idiots who don't investigate anything on their own and refuse to listen to those that do.
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:22 AM   #3033
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Ah, the vox populi. The main problem being of course that most people are idiots who don't investigate anything on their own and refuse to listen to those that do.
Or, as I seem to recall, as General Sherman put it: 'Vox populi, vox humbug'!
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Old 4th March 2021, 10:35 AM   #3034
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Old 4th March 2021, 10:38 AM   #3035
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
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Old 4th March 2021, 11:32 AM   #3036
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The focus on Dr. Fauci is really what amuses me. As usual, the far right seems to have conjured up a Satan to fear and loathe. It's not as if he's saying anything different than every other epidemiologist in the world. It's not as if the rest of the world pays the slightest attention to him; they have their own experts. The obsession over marginalizing or discrediting one scientist, as some sort of bellwether for the entire scientific community, smacks of the sort of dumbing-down that the far-right uses to manipulate its base.
I have run into the same conundrum when discussing COVID-19 within the quagmire of facebook (usually when trying to talk sense into family and acquaintances). Complaints about Fauci are almost entirely comprised of what they see as flip-flopping on masks, and the seemingly idiotic ways some of the restrictions are made and enforced. Their misconception on masks is one thing, but their inability to move their logic train past the first comfortable (to them) station is most evident regarding the latter. I frequently point out that Dr. Fauci can only make recommendations - he has no legislative powers. It is the politicians that decide what, how and when to mandate restrictions, and since these restrictions are done at state and lower levels, this results in a jumble of sometimes conflicting rules. They have yet to offer any rebuttal (as if there is a reasonable one), but just wait a week, and they are back making the exact same complaints. *sigh*
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:21 PM   #3037
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On Fauci, before Covid I never heard of him...Did you all?

As I see him, an old viralist making a load of govt money who has been brought out of mothballs, and is all over tv for the folks to buy his old flip flopping stuff. I could name quickly 10 viral specialists and other researchers who would all mostly differ with him.
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:35 PM   #3038
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
On Fauci, before Covid I never heard of him...Did you all?

As I see him, an old viralist making a load of govt money who has been brought out of mothballs, and is all over tv for the folks to buy his old flip flopping stuff. I could name quickly 10 viral specialists and other researchers who would all mostly differ with him.
He'd make more money in private practice.

You could name 10? By all means, name them. I'll make it easy -- start with the top 5. This isn't the thread for it though.
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Old 4th March 2021, 09:08 PM   #3039
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
On Fauci, before Covid I never heard of him...Did you all?
Yes, during the Ebola outbreak.

Quote:
As I see him, an old viralist...
"Viralist" doesn't mean what you think it means.
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Old 4th March 2021, 09:36 PM   #3040
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Specialists in a particular field generally only come to the attention of the public when that field is in the news. I have no idea what point Caroline13 is trying to make here.
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